Still Another Odd, Possibly Dumb Idea

Will .40 S&W, specifically 180gr Hydra-Shoks out of a Beretta 96, be effective in stopping a mountain lion and/or black bear?

Also, what about .380 ACP JSPs from a Bersa .380? 7.62x25 from a CZ-52? .38 +P out of a snubby revolver? .45 ACP?

Other ideas/guns for under $150 that would be effective are also appreciated.

To clarify, you're asking if a Bersa .380, .38 snubbie, .40sw, .45acp, or 7.62x25 is suitable for black bear/mountian lion defense?

What kinda .45 are we talking here? Ballistics matter.

You'll probably get the best performance out of the .45 or .40sw. Myself, I'd choose the .45acp. With $150 you're very close to being able to buy a .357 though. Maybe try carrying the .45 until you save an extra hundred bucks then invest in a .38/.357 magnum. Tried and true woods gun. My .2 cents

-Thunder

A 12 ga pump full of slugs is the cheapest reasonably effective bear defense.

If you just must depend on a pistol, the biggest you have, .40 or .45, is none too large. If you can get hits with it. None of those others is worth considering. A .380 for cougar is just silly.

In my opinion none of those are really suitable. If you had to use one maybe the .40 or .45 with Corbon DPX loads would work, but they shouldn't be your first choice.

I realize we are not talking grizzly's and tigers, but these are still animals with big claws that you can't beat in a fist fight.

I don't think I would want to trust my life against the animals mentioned with anything that doesn't have "Magnum" somewhere in its name.:D (or at least similar ME)
I also would have problems depending on any gun that costs less than $150 new.;) ;)

Dean

Mountain Lion is built pretty lightly, even a big one. 9mm with a good loading is plenty to kill him quickly on a broadside shot, the problem is he has never watched movies or read books enough to know that when his heart and lungs stop functioning he should die right then and there. He will continue to function long enough to be a real problem before his brain and muscles shut completely down from the lack of oxygen.

I would look to a heavy XTP bullet loaded in 40 cal or bigger, it will make it to important parts from just about any angle on a Lion.

Bear? Much heavier construction, and a LOT harder to reach important parts with a handgun bullet. He is a lot less aggressive most times, but I don't think I would count on it. I really don't want to face a bear with less than a 44 mag, and even then I would want the circumstances to greatly favor me. 454, 480, something like that would be much more appealing to me if I wasn't able to at least verify the circumstances were slightly in my favor....

Whatever you have is better than nothing. If you have a 40 and can't spring for something else by all means use it.

Will .40 S&W, specifically 180gr Hydra-Shoks out of a Beretta 96, be effective in stopping a mountain lion and/or black bear? Also, what about .380 ACP JSPs from a Bersa .380? 7.62x25 from a CZ-52? .38 +P out of a snubby revolver? .45 ACP? Other ideas/guns for under $150 that would be effective are also appreciated.

Oh GOD, not this again! :neener:

I'm no expert, have never hunted black bear or cougar, but just on the basic principle of relative size...

The typical black bear runs from 120-600 lbs (though the current record is around 800 lbs). They are sheeted in fur then fat then muscle, all of which -can- act as a sort of ballistic armor to one extent or another. They are strong and fast. They are also kinda lazy and generally NON-aggressive towards humans so if you get one that puts effort into coming after you then it's probably feeling pretty determined and that "deadly focus", while impossible to quantify in scientific terms, can significantly increase the difficulty of putting a bear down.

The typical cougar weighs in at about 150 lb (the current record holder was something like 282 lbs). They, like most cats, prefer to stalk and ambush. Although I have read many accounts of ranged kills on cougar, I have also read several accounts of contact/melee kills.

Anything that would work on a human will probably be equally as effective on a cougar. The bear probably takes a little more doing though. The possibility of -contact- combat with the cougar makes me think "six for sure" (I.E. a revolver) and trying to cover both cougar AND bear makes me think "MAGNUM".

So in summary...
.40 S&W - Cougar yes, bear...pretty Iffy but possible.

.380 ACP JSP - Nope, I don't think so but could be wrong as I don't know this round very well.

7.62x25 from a CZ-52 - Now that's an interesting one, maybe, but I don't think so.

.38 +P out of a snubby revolver - Much like the CZ, maybe but I wouldn't want to depend on it, especially against a bear.

.45 ACP - Cougar yes, bear maybe.

Other ideas/guns for under $150 that would be effective are also appreciated.
I have nothing else to add to that, if I were preparing to tangle with either/both of these critters I'd ramp my budget up a LOT (say $600-800). You may not like that answer but there it is.

The typical cougar weighs in at about 150 lb (the current record holder was something like 282 lbs). They, like most cats, prefer to stalk and ambush.

Buddy of a guy at work, black powder hunting out west somewhere for elk, started dozing at the base of a tree. Woke up to find a kitty, sneaking up on him about 20 ft. away. One chance, one shot with a muzzle loader, and he got it.

A great number of years ago (50 or so) I knew an old bounty/pelt hunter that would take mountain lion with a single-shot .22. He said all you had to do was shoot them in the eye and it wouldn't ruin the pelt. :what:

Dean

A great number of years ago (50 or so) I knew an old bounty/pelt hunter that would take mountain lion with a single-shot .22. He said all you had to do was shoot them in the eye and it wouldn't ruin the pelt.

He he he, waaaay gutsier than me for sure. Of course I suppose it's a slightly different matter when YOU are hunting THEM and can pick the circumstances. If they are hunting YOU and you don't know it....

40s&w hydrashoks would work fine...



(If you pull the bullets and toss them into a decent 10mm loading)


:evil:

think that a good stout 40 or 45 round would be ok for the cat. The bear is another ball game. In my younger days I did a lot of hiking and carried the only handgun that I had because I felt that it was better that nothing. I toted my USP45 loaded with 185 Remington +P HP’s. But the bear issue is a complex one. Where I hiked the bears were used to people and associated people more with food that as food, not that I would ever test my little theory. Combine that with the fact that the forest rangers always loaded the first round or their shotgun with rubber buckshot or rubber slugs or beanbags to deal with camp bears or dumpster diving bears. I think that they associated the noise of a gunshot with a painful sensation in their hind quarters.

"I would want to trust my life against the animals mentioned with anything that doesn't have "Magnum" somewhere in its name"

The 7.62x25mm Tokarev cartridge is unofficially designated the 8mm Magnum. A magic marker can be used to Magnumize the box.

If you get something with a laser mounted, maybe the bear will chase it.

If you go with .380, you'll probably want FMJ.

Don't fret so much. It's really all about shot placement. You ought to be able to get a good .22 handgun pretty cheap. Oh, and don't forget; a hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a .45.

Mountain lions and bears are two very different situations.

Mountain lions do not like prey that fights back, there are recorded incidents of humans driving them off with rocks, sticks, even bare handed. Usually a lion wont stand and fight unless cornered or protecting cubs. They also have very light skeletons, supported mostly by muscle. A good hollow-point round will do just as much damage to them as it will to a human.

Bears and other large forest animals like moose (yes they can be aggressive) have very thick and sturdy skeletons and you will want a deep penetrating bullet. A hard-cast lead bullet at a high velocity should be able to break through the bones in the skull and rib cage.

In theory a well placed .22mag would be enough for mountain lions, but any place where you find lions, you are likely to find both black and brown bears. If a .40 is all you have, load it with the hottest solid lead bullets your gun can handle. It will be more than enough for a lion, is capable of doing the job on a black bear, and you might get a lucky shot or hit enough times to make a brown bear change his mind.;)

.357mag is generally considered the bear minimum for brown bears:rolleyes: :p , but a .40 with a high cap mag is better than nothing. Also animal attacks are pretty rare, 90% of encounters the animal will either run away or ignore you. Just be cautious, be aware, and remember that wild animals are WILD and you'll be fine.

Short of a grenade launcher or a precision airstrike, nothing should be counted on to reliabily drop a bear right off the bat. Especially not a pistol.

As for the couger even a .380 if fine. But with a bear I'd say get yourself a nice short shotty with a pistol grip.

and I'm pretty sure you're right. I'm no expert but I wouldn't go looking for pumas and black bears with any of the setups you described. If they come to you and that is all you have, then you must make do. I wouldn't feel safe with anything less than a semi-automatic .308 for feline or ursa. It may not be sporting but I don't want my head mounted on their den's wall.:evil: :D :what:

So what I gather is:

The bears, though relatively built like tanks, are more just foraging for food rather than preying, and are easier to drive off. Unless they are hunting you, in which case you're SOL without a .45-70 or 12ga slug gun anyway.

The mountain lions, though fast, powerful, and predatory, are not as bullet-resistant and thus more common handgun calibers can be used on them.

Reason I brought up .380 is that I've got a Bersa that'd be more portable than my Vektor SP2, and I'd worry less about damaging. 7.62x25, .38 +P, and .45 ACP were in regards to if I should pick up a CZ-52, Rossi revolver, or Hi-Point .45 (respectively).

I'm looking for protection--stopping, not necessarily killing. I guess I could go with the Vektor... I hope on not even seeing either of them, but a recent quote has been stuck in my mind lately... "A gun is like a seat belt. MOst of the time you don't need them or want to use them, but when you do, you need it now and badly."

bears, though relatively built like tanks, are more just foraging for food rather than preying, and are easier to drive off.

Unless they think you have food, are protecting cubs, are protecting territory or are just generally p*ssed off. (Bears can be grouchy at times.)

I would suppose the best way to use .380 would be to fire up through the soft pallet in the top of the mouth into the brain. Of course this may involve sticking the gun and your arm someplace you might not really want to.:evil:

.454 Casul for the Bear, don't go for a head shot, it will only piss him off.

Nothing smaller than .40S&W for the cougar. Make sure you're with-in hand shack range.

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As for the couger even a .380 if fine. But with a bear I'd say get yourself a nice short shotty with a pistol grip.

If I'm going to carry my shotgun (that's gun owner talk for "shotty", for the ghetto crowd) I'm going to have a butt stock on it so I can hit something with it.:rolleyes: Mountain lion, I want my .357. The .357 will DO for black bear, too, but I'd rather have my .45 Colt along. Black bear aren't Brown bear. They're fairly easy to kill and not NEARLY so aggressive. But, we've been over and over this subject a bazillion times.

I have ONE auto I sometimes take afield, a stainless Ruger P90 in .45ACP. Loaded with +P handloads over 500 ft lbs with 200 grain hard cast SWCs, it's okay, but I'd prefer my .357 or .45 Colt (300 grain Hornady XTP at 1150 fps) when I'm in bear country. No need to haul around a shotgun for black bear. It'll probably be leaning against a tree if you need it. Black bear do not wear kevlar and they've been killed quite dead with a head shot from a .22 LR. At one time the record book black bear was killed by a Canadian Indian kid with a .22, little girl at that. I don't remember the weight, but a really big black bear is 500 lbs and most of 'em are outweighed by Japanese sumo wrestlers. Load a .357 with hard cast 158 or 180 grain SWC or cast TCs and it's adequate defense. Just don't go to grizzly country with it.

Oh, and don't forget; a hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a .45.

Assuming you hit with the 22. If you cant hit with either you're up the creek. If you couldn't hit it with a 45 why is the 22 going to be more accurate?



Having seen big mountain lions out in the woods. I'm thinking minimum of 10mm for my own personal use. Ive seen articles about pit bulls needing several 9,40,45 rounds to die. Those aren't half as scary as a pissed off cougar

My "back woods hiking" guns are a Steyr M40 or my S&W Model 29 ... the 29 is for when I'm more likely to confront a bear than anything else (so I don't pack it when hiking close to town).


To be honest, unless you're WAY out in the wilderness, your self defense weapon is more likely to be necessary against 2 legged predators than 4 legged.


As for the cougar, there are plenty of folk who hunt cougar with handguns (usually wheelguns, so lots of .357mag, .45 Colt and .44 spec & mag) but I've read plenty of articles about people hunting cougar with 1911s (and I'll go out on a limb here and say a .40S&W out of a Beretta 96 size gun is just as effective as a .45acp out of a Govt. Model).

Oh, and I'd load up the .40 with 165gr instead of the 180gr.

I do not know of a cougar killing anyone who was armed and had the opportunity to shoot before the cat was upon their person.

If a cougar gets a person in its clutches chances are good the cat will win before the victim can deliver a killing shot with anything.

Having spent enough time in the great north woods I consider the same rules to apply for black bears.
A friend of mine now dead, killed a problem black bear with a .22 LR Harrington Richardson revolver and I believe the same has happened with problem cougars too, though I wouldn't recommend this for any but the most skilled.
.40 S&W will do the job in competent hands.

I have never had the opportunity to see a grizzly in the wild but the ones I have seen in captivity convince me that .375 H&H Magnum is the absolute minimum caliber I would be willing to pit against an enraged, injured, or hunting grizzly bear.

I was being sarcastic.

Ohhh sorry about that. Ive heard that line used too many times to push underpowered rounds to people.

A hit in the eye with a 22 is a hell of a lot better than a hit a couple inches over through the skin of the ear with a 44. A hit anywhere with a 22 is a hell of a lot better than a wish for the 44 you left back in camp because it was just too damn heavy. I have been there and awful glad I have never gotten into a mix-up with the grizzlys blacks and moose I used to see all the time in my bush job on the railroad track gangs in Alaska. Being able to hit a small vital target with reasonable penetration is all that you can hope for in a defense hand gun for that "in case" situation against such large strong beasts. Haveing it WITH YOU so that you can at least fire warning shots that will drive off 80% of them is the most important thing! If you can shoot a 4" 25 yard group with that 380 and it is something that you will carry all the time instead of leaveing back at camp just "sometimes" to lighten your load, then find a good penetrateing load for it and call it good.

I would probably trust my DW 10mm Razorback, but for a bear I would much rather have my ol' Ruger SBH .44 magnum.

my 16 year old brother shot a black bear in his back yard w/ a 20 guage shotgun loaded w/ 8 shot this summer (in michigan). he said it looked like it had been hit by a car or something, and it was mauling one of their minature horses. one shot, maybe 15 yds or so, modified choke, the shot finding its way into the neck/shoulder area. im not saying thats what i would use to stop a bear, but i know it can be done. for the most part, black bears can just be scared away. whenever we saw them in the woods we would just clap our hands, pounded our feet on the ground, and yelled at them. they are not particularly aggresive, unless wounded, cornered, very very hungry maybe. now i live here in the great state of nebraska, where we have a suprisingly large number of cougers (thank you nebraska game a parks:scrutiny: ). i have a friend who lives by silver creek who had both of his german sheppards killed by a cougar (one was dead when they found it, the other came home and had to be put down due to injuries). i think that if you live in an area where you have both you should be alot more concerned w/ the couger. i dont think they routinley attack ppl or anything, but they are WAY more aggresive animals. from what i have seen tho (at the zoo, never seen one in the wild) they dont seem to be built to take much damage. i would have no problem going into the woods w/ a .40 s&w for animal defense. not a great bear round, but i think that it would be plenty for the cougar. plenty of ppl have fought them off w/ their bare (pardon the pun) hands, so i would think that if you could put a few rounds into him before he could get to you, you would be doing alright.

Hmmm....

This talk of killing big cats with pistol rounds.... :scrutiny:

I have to admit, I've never encountered a really big cat in the woods.

I have, however, had to deal with a really, really pissed-off large housecat.

Cats for the most part are all muscle and hyperfast reflexes. I'd hate to have to try and save my butt from a mountain lion with a pistol. Most certainly not with a freaking .380 or thereabouts.

Which pistol? Easy, an Ak-47 pistol. All the fun of a rifle in a pistol package. Sure, 7.62 x 39 might not be the best anti-bear round, but 30 of 'em will probably stop the sucker. :). Seriously though, go with what others said, a ____ magnum gun. You could also look into Desert Eagles, available in magnum calibers, or if you want to really spend the money, a Wildey pistol.

I'd go for a Ruger Alaskan in .454

Short barrel, easy to carry, can use .45 Long Colt for non critter duty, strong enough to stop a big cat or even a bear when loaded with .454.

If you are wanting a pistol but something that is more easily packed I think the Glock 20 in 10mm is probably acceptable.....but only with hot loads and not the recent offerings that give .40 S&W ballistics. But as many others have said a long gun is a better choice for these critters. ;)

I wouldn't use a pistol on ANY of those animals. Heck, I can come up with quite a few rifle rounds I wouldn't use...