Looking for 9mm +P loads


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mugsie
December 29, 2006, 08:16 PM
I have a couple of loading manuals, the latest Speer and and older Accurate manual and neither has information for 9mm +P loads. Can someone post some +P loads, or point me in the direction of a page showing a couple? Thanks....

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hagar
December 29, 2006, 09:21 PM
I would be extremely careful trying to load +P loads. They border on being unsafe, use special powders and crimping techniques, and are not easily duplicated by handloaders. There are old reloaders and there are bold reloaders, there are no old bold reloaders!:uhoh:

Walkalong
December 29, 2006, 10:16 PM
There are only two kinds of Triple riders. "The Quick And The Dead"

We now return you to your previously scheduled program. :neener:

The Bushmaster
December 29, 2006, 10:50 PM
Ya know Walkalong...He's right.:D There is no listing in any of my manuals showing a +P load. BUT...I did chronograph fifty Remington 115 grain JHP +P factory a few years back and I still have the data. Just for starters the velocity for a Remington 115 grain JHP +P is 1170 fps from a 3.3 inch barrel. More loads then you can count in my manuals list 9mmX19 115 grain JHP at more then 1200 fps. I would guess you could say that a maximum load is the same as a +P factory.

I do, however, agree with everyone that I would be very careful working up to those levels. I have been using 4.6 to 4.8 grains of W-231 under a 115 grain JHP (Winchester) and a WSP primer and getting almost 1100 fps from a 3.3inch barrel. I believe that might constitute a +P loading...Please...If you use this load. Start at 4.3 grains of W-231 and work up carefully.

With all that being said. Yes. They are +P loads at the maximum charge levels and must be delt with accordingly...

References: Lyman 48th edition ( maximum of 4.9); Sierra Vth edition 2nd printing (maximum of 5.3); Winchester load data (maximum of 4.8) and my own load data log (maximum of 4.8). All these maximum powder charges are for 115 grain JHP bullet. Quite a wide range of differences...

Jim Watson
December 30, 2006, 12:39 AM
If you want some shock and awe, get a can of Power Pistol. Handbook loads with it will give higher velocity than most, accompanied by a lot of flash and blast that will let everybody know you are shooting powerful bullets.

Mtdew
December 30, 2006, 03:25 AM
9mm major load data

STAFF EDIT: LINK DELETED

The link given is to one handloader's efforts to make 9x19mm into a MAJOR POWER CARTRIDGE. The majority of loads given are WELL inexcess of maximum loads published on powder manufacturers' sites and in recognized loading manuals. Further, the writer tested his loads in a specially set up pistol, supposedly modified to handle high pressure loads.

This type loading information has no place on the THR H&R Forum unless labeled with BOLD FACED WARNINGS, and even then I have major misgivings.

Mtdew gets the benefit of a doubt, that he's just trying to be helpful. Don't anyone else post that link.

mugsie
December 30, 2006, 10:57 AM
The reason I was looking is because my nephew, who is a NY City cop, gave me a box of 9mm +P to use and I really liked them. He's issued 9mm +P ammo. It's Speer GoldDot, 124g HP. I was wondering if I could duplicate this but none of my loading manuals carry the formula.
Thanks....

Clark
December 30, 2006, 11:44 AM
9mm SAAMI max average is 35,000 psi
9mm+P SAAMI max average is 38,500 psi

That 10% increase in pressure, according to my Quickload program, can be had with a 3% increase in powder.

I don't think you will notice the difference.

I have a case of Hirtenberger 9mm +P+ that seems wimpy to me.

The Bushmaster
December 30, 2006, 12:01 PM
Quote: "I have a case of Hirtenberger 9mm +P+ that seems wimpy to me".

:D Clark...I bet they do...:D

Zak Smith
December 30, 2006, 01:13 PM
Edition 2 of the Vihtavuori reloading manual had loads that would match Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P, i.e. a 124gr at 1250-1325fps.

I have loaded the 124gr Gold Dots to 1280 or a bit more with VV 3N37, per the above guidance from the VV book.

crazyhorse
December 30, 2006, 01:19 PM
Definately NOT something I would do. Over use of +P ammo is not something ya want to do. :evil:

Biggest problem, 1/10gr over could cause a K-BOOM!

LeonCarr
December 30, 2006, 01:45 PM
Power Pistol would be a good place to start for loading 9mm +P, it is the same powder that is used to load 9mm NATO spec ammunition. If you follow the published data and use sound loading procedures, it will yield +P equivalent loads.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

The Bushmaster
December 30, 2006, 02:22 PM
Mind you Mugsie. +P and +P+ are hard on handguns if fed a steady diet of these. Best to practice and fun shoot with lower powder charges and save these for the real thing...

nelson133
December 30, 2006, 02:22 PM
I guess I'm mystified why any one would want to load high pressure rounds for any pistol caliber. I only use handloads in a pistol for practice, and I don't see any reason to beat up gun or shooter for practice.

The Bushmaster
December 30, 2006, 02:47 PM
Well Nelson...That's why we can hand load. So we can have our cake and eat it too. (Hopefully not with gun parts in it:eek: ).

Walkalong
December 30, 2006, 07:15 PM
I have loaded the 124gr Gold Dots to 1280 or a bit more with VV 3N37, per the above guidance from the VV book.

That is supposed to be the powder for full loads in the 9MM. How does it do in .40 or .45? Thanks.

Zak Smith
December 30, 2006, 07:23 PM
No idea, sorry. For anything that I load in bulk for pistol these days, I am using Titegroup (which is NOT a good choice for full house 9x19).

According to QuickLoad, 3N37 should be OK for 40SW, but is probably too slow for 45ACP.

-z

Walkalong
December 30, 2006, 07:27 PM
Thanks. I've tried N310, N320, N330, & N340. What the heck. I might try it. Is it denser than these others?

Zak Smith
December 30, 2006, 07:29 PM
My experience with 3N37 is that it leaves granules in the gun unless it burns at high pressure.

Walkalong
December 30, 2006, 07:30 PM
Thanks. Sounds like it is out for the .45

Bullet
December 31, 2006, 05:20 AM
mugsie

This link will show you the velocities for 9mm +P - 124gr Gold Dots

http://le.atk.com/Interior.asp?section=2&page=pages/ccispeer/ccispeer_GoldDot.asp

You can load to +P velocities (fps) using listed loads in your Speer manual for 124gr Gold Dots.

SAAMI says that 9mm+P = 38,500psi while Speer says its loads do not exceed 35,000psi.

Luggernut
January 1, 2007, 09:06 PM
I've used up to 6.4gr Power Pistol with a 124gr FMJ bullet. PP is pretty hot compared to other loads I've used. It's great with 9mm and .40 S&W too.

MCgunner
January 1, 2007, 09:41 PM
Ya know Walkalong...He's right. There is no listing in any of my manuals showing a +P load. BUT...I did chronograph fifty Remington 115 grain JHP +P factory a few years back and I still have the data. Just for starters the velocity for a Remington 115 grain JHP +P is 1170 fps from a 3.3 inch barrel. More loads then you can count in my manuals list 9mmX19 115 grain JHP at more then 1200 fps. I would guess you could say that a maximum load is the same as a +P factory.

Yeah, I just assume my carry load is +P because of the velocity I get from it. It pushes a 115 grain Hornady XTP JHP to 1260 out of a 3" barrel, 1340 out of a 4.5". I load it in commercial brass. Case volume is less on most military stuff and pressures could be higher. I worked up to it watching for any case swelling at the feed ramp in particular. It is a safe load in my two guns, a Ruger P85 and a Kel Tec P11. It is the top load for Unique in my Speer No.11 manual, 6.4 grains. I've shot probably 1000 rounds of this stuff in four different guns over the years and never had a problem. I don't feed a constant diet of it to even my Ruger, but especially my KT. It's eaten a couple hundred rounds of it ot of the 10K+ it's fired in its lifetime. I carry it with that load. When the loads get old enough I begin to wonder about 'em, I'll fire 'em up in my Ruger. It's a tough gun.

Anyway, at 410 ft lbs out of a Kel Tec P11, we're in snubby .357 magnum territory with a lot less flash bang and a lot more controllable recoil with a lot more capacity than a five shot revolver. It is quite a good little pocket combination IMHO. Beats the heck out of .380, anyway.:D

GunAdmirer
January 2, 2007, 01:11 PM
See my new thread on Power Pistol. It can get you to +P velocities at standard pressure.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=244930

Clark
January 2, 2007, 02:34 PM
I know a couple load book fundamentalists that value their old "Vihtavuori One" book with the most powerful 9mm loads permitted by load books.

3N37 Costs more.
3N37 makes less muzzle flash.

9x19mm 3N37 147 gr book load from Vihtavuori may make the majors and Power Pistol book loads from Alliant can't.

But in a load work up, I can get more power with Power Pistol than I can from 3N37.

Walkalong
January 2, 2007, 08:52 PM
Power Pistol is 40% Nitro content. Maybe thats why. I dunno. I think 3N37 is single base. I know N310 thru N340 are.

joniscream
June 5, 2009, 05:23 PM
I noticed MTDew listed SP magnum, SP, SR, and SR magnum primers in those 9mm +p loads. Were those typos or is someone actually loading 9mm with SPM and SR primers. I have a gazillion Wolf SRP that I would love to be able to load 9mm. I recently purchase a Loadmaster progressive press and used up all of my SP primers. I have had SP primers on back order for 3 months and everyone just keeps pushing the due date back. I am getting ready with my I told you so. If I were a little commie and I wanted to limit Americans access to ammo, thus firearms, I would buy all of the primers. All of the primers used in every category of ammo for all non-military/police use everywhere in the world would only cost $50 million/year. That is chump change to a US President and he doesn't need to change one law to do that. Hope and change... Yes we can...
I can and do make bullets. I can make casings. I can even make powder. I cannot manufacture primers.

FM-793
June 5, 2009, 05:30 PM
Good info - as a big 9mm fan, I'm honestly really pleasantly surprised that there have been no smart-@ss responses like...

"...if you really want a +P load, you need to step up to .357 Sig, .40 S&W, etc., etc., etc..."

Cool.

:)

jbauch357
June 5, 2009, 06:04 PM
The Alliant reloaders guide recomments 6.7 grains of Power Pistol for 115gr 9mm.

Since I'm loading Rainier Ballistics plated 115gr RN bullets (which they recommend loading to 10% under recommended standard metal jacketed bullets) I am starting my testing with 6.0 grains of Power Pistol.

Am I playing with fire??

It seems I'm also over crimping a bit (0.007" indent into the bullet after pulled) which increases the worry that I'm turning out little hand grenades rather than good reloads - tomorrow I hit the range for the first time with my 9mm loads.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=115&shellid=23&bulletid=25

Jim Watson
June 5, 2009, 06:10 PM
I have loaded 9mm P with small rifle primers. Reliable ignition and no "pressure signs" whatever that might be at sub-maximum loads.

Marlin 45 carbine
June 5, 2009, 06:50 PM
many of these loads are into .357mag velocitys so this states the 9mm Para is a good s-d choice.

Claude Clay
June 5, 2009, 07:05 PM
real good question and lots of great info resulted.

124 gr Rainer with 6.6 of Power pistol and a strong crimp replicates a 124 gr +P Cor-Bon. this powder gives the same recoil feel and the crono reads within 30fps.
caution about everything esp the crimp--lighten it and the 'feel' aint right.
FM-793, this is a entry level 357 SIG round and i do fire them in my sig bbl. gun functions fine as the case length is long enough that as it ballons it contacts the shoulder area in the chamber. no pressure signs and the POI is a bit above a 357 Sig round.

D. Manley
June 5, 2009, 08:38 PM
Since I'm loading Rainier Ballistics plated 115gr RN bullets (which they recommend loading to 10% under recommended standard metal jacketed bullets) I am starting my testing with 6.0 grains of Power Pistol.

Am I playing with fire??

It seems I'm also over crimping a bit (0.007" indent into the bullet after pulled) which increases the worry that I'm turning out little hand grenades rather than good reloads - tomorrow I hit the range for the first time with my 9mm loads.

I suspect 6.0 grains PP *could* actually prove a good load with the 115 plated bullet...I've shot that bullet at this level with no problem. That said, the caveat here is that you cannot over-crimp them and retain accuracy and it sounds like you might be. I'd recomment seating them 1.14 or longer with your load and reducing the crimp to only remove the bell (flaring) of the case. This will likely be ..3765/3775.

GunAdmirer
June 6, 2009, 12:30 AM
I like to load 115 gr. RN bullets to 1.130". 6.0 gr. Power Pistol should be a great load with a 115 gr. bullets. Power Pistol is one of my favorite powders especially in 9mm.

atblis
June 7, 2009, 12:24 AM
IIRC 6.2 gr of PP yielded 1275 fps out of my G34.

jbauch357
June 8, 2009, 12:39 PM
I suspect 6.0 grains PP *could* actually prove a good load with the 115 plated bullet...I've shot that bullet at this level with no problem. That said, the caveat here is that you cannot over-crimp them and retain accuracy and it sounds like you might be. I'd recomment seating them 1.14 or longer with your load and reducing the crimp to only remove the bell (flaring) of the case. This will likely be ..3765/3775.

I scrapped the 100 or so rounds that I had that aggressive crimp on and started over. With an OAL of 1.150", 6 grains of PP, a proper crimp and the 115gr plated bullets the loads worked great and were very accurate.

The only drawback is there was LOTS of residue in the barrel even after just 40 rounds or so - and I get quite the fireball with each shot...

D. Manley
June 8, 2009, 09:06 PM
I don't shoot P.P. much since most shooting is indoors and that fireball you mentioned can be annoying. I've not noticed it being particularly dirty though and IME, it cleans up pretty well with sufficient pressure. Since you're shooting plated you may not be able to put enough "go dirt" under them to get pressure up but you might want to think about going to 6.2 grains and see if it helps. IIRC, this was my most accurate load with 115 jacketed. Even 6.2 should be OK under the plated and hopefully, the fireball should'nt be much bigger...:D

zxcvbob
June 8, 2009, 10:38 PM
Bullseye is a good powder for 9mm +P loads. I used to use Green Dot, but Bullseye gives a lot higher velocity for the same or lower pressure. Shouldn't give you a lot of muzzle flash either (I dunno, I've only shot it outdoors in daylight.) I load 135 grain cast bullets to about 1200 fps.

WSF is a great powder; supposed to be good in 9mm but I haven't gotten around to trying that yet. The burn rate is the same as Herco, but it's denser and measures better (Herco is too fluffy to use in 9mm hot loads, just like Blue Dot)

Clark
September 2, 2009, 05:45 PM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

My range report 2009-02-06
Kel-Tec PF9 3.1" barrel
1) 124 gr FN Honady bullets and 10 gr Power Pistol. 1336 fps.
2)100 gr Hirtenberger +P+ 1275 fps

Alliant max load 4" barrel, 124 gr, Power Pistol 6.4 gr., 1,157 fps

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=124&shellid=23&bulletid=26&bdid=951

When I shoot 11 gr Power Pistol 158 gr in a 9mm [over sized throat and resized loaded ammo], the recoil hurts my hand for an hour from shooting 3 shots.

counterclockwise
September 2, 2009, 06:41 PM
I guess I'm mystified why any one would want to load high pressure rounds for any pistol caliber. I only use handloads in a pistol for practice, and I don't see any reason to beat up gun or shooter for practice.

I think it has to do with personal protection loads. +P are issue loads for the LEO apparently. I bought a box of the new Winchester +P man stoppers at Wallyworld the other day. Tax and all was $1.00/round. Heretofore I had never had the first thought about reloading 9mm. Now I am beginning to wonder.

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