[rwmcquigge]

is it possible to have a .303 british made out of a remington pump,if so how much trouble will it be.
i just love the caliber but im not much for lee enfeild rifle or any surplus rifle for that matter.any body have any ideas how i can get a better rifle in the caliber that i love:confused:

[Magnumite]

That's a pretty big case head. It is doable, but I'd opt for the standard 308 or '06 caliber in those guns.

You might have some luck finding an Enfield, not SMLE, P-17 I think is the model and sporterizing it. Some of the 303 history is eluding me at the present.

[Cosmoline]

Intact P-17's are going for more and more these days, and you'd have to have some brain cells missing to hack one up. It's taking a $500-$900 piece of American history and turning it into a $100 piece of garbage. If you want to go that route, just grab up one of the many that's already been cut up. Though rechambering it to .303 like a P-14 would be ... odd.

Why not go with a .303 Savage, .30-40 Krag or similar round with ballistics similar to the .303 Brit but not such a big case head.

[Novus Collectus]

Made me wonder so I googled .303 lever action.

The Winchester Model 1895 rifle was the last rifle designed for Winchester by John Browning. It was introduced to the public in 1896. Like earlier Winchester lever actions, the 1895 ejected spent brass out the top of the receiver. In other ways this new big game rifle was a departure from previous Winchester rifles. The most important of these probably being that it was designed from the outset for smokeless powder pressures, not adapted to them as the 1886 had been.

The 1895 was not only stronger than previous Winchester lever action rifles, it also had a fixed box magazine that allowed it to safely use high intensity cartridges with pointed bullets. As a result, the Model 95 is most often seen in calibers such as .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.62x54R, .30-03, and .30-06 Spfd. It was also chambered for the powerful .35 Winchester and .405 Winchester cartridges, and became famous as a rifle for hunting big and dangerous game.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/winchester_1895.htm

[Jim Watson]

Well, 1901 is more "modern" than 1895...
Cased , Under Lever, Hammer Double Rifle by William Evans (from Purdeys) Circa 1901. 303 British 26" steel barrels. US$ 10500

Full description and pictures at:
http://www.bestgunsaustralia.com.au/indiv_guns_pages/double_rifles/willian_evans.htm

They have an Alex Henry .303 double for only US$ 7500 but not in as nice condition.

You could probably find a safari single shot for less money or you could have a Ruger No 1 rebarrelled to .303 if you could find a maker of .311" barrels.

The only easy route to a .303 repeater would be to make a SMLE into a copy of a Lee Speed... or to find a Lee Speed. I guess there were some British sporters on P14 actions; might have been some on Mannlicher actions, those were pretty popular in .256 (6.5x53R) and could have been set up in .303 like the Dutch Mannlichers that were converted in WW II.

Convert a Remington pump? No.

[Firehand]

I'd say it's possible, certainly. Barrel with .311 bore would have to be fitted to the receiver, the bolt face would have to be modified to fit the case head. Magazine would likely need to be modified to feed them properly.

The receiver/bolt is strong enough to handle the pressure. As to how difficult/expensive the barrel and bolt fitting would be, no idea.

[Jim K]

I guess there is no arguing with love, but unless you have tons of free .303 ammo, I really can't see going to the expense and trouble of converting a modern rifle to that caliber. One serious problem is that I know of no source for a new .303 barrel, at least in the U.S.

The Mauser 98 action has been converted to .303, so if you can find a suitable barrel, or have one made, that might be a better bet than a Remington pump rifle which, IMHO, would be very difficult to convert.

Jim

[Sunray]

"...is it possible..." Anything is possible with enough time and money. Lots of money in this case. You'd be looking at a totally custom barrel specially made to fit a Remington pump. Then you'd be looking at reworking the bolt(depending on what the rifle is currently chambered in), extractor and magazine. You'd end up spending very large dollars.
You need to learn to like the No. 4 Mk I Lee-Enfield. There's no bolt action that's as fast as one of 'em. Find one that has been bubba'd with good headspace and change the stock. You will find that a commercial butt stock with a wider butt plate is more comfortable to shoot than a milsurp No. 4.

[Magnumite]

FWIW, the SMLE action was a sporterized action. It greatest detracting feature was the separate front and rear stock sections instead of the single piece stock of most bolt action guns. This caused accuracy concerns with custom builders but they learned the ways around that.

They do sell fiberglass sporter front and rear stocks for those rifles if you are interested. I know someone who has that set up. If you have a good barrel and action, you have the foundation for a good rifle.

[shooter503]

You do not have to worry about the fit of the buttstock on a 303. Just make sure the buttstock through bolt is tight.

Assuming the fore-end has been sporterized to about half the barrel length fibreglass bed the area from the rear face of the fore-end to about half an inch ahead of the receiver ring. Leave the rest of the fore-end free floating. The area around the receiver ring is important. This is a fiddly job. You are virtually turning the steel parts of the action and the wooden parts of the action into one solid unit.

Important advice I got from Mrs. Parker at the old Parker shop in Birmingham many years ago. The compression permitted on the wood of the fore-end by the spacer tube inserted into the fore-end around the forward receiver bolt is important (this tube is often lost in Bubba jobs). Also, for accuracy, the pivot pin that holds the rear sight in place is replaced by a long threaded screw and nuts. This screw is then tightened to just allow free bolt operation. This makes the lock-up of the bolt more rigid.

Another bolt gun option, that I have had very great success with, is to produce what I call a 7.62 British. Using combinations of Lee reloading die parts you can neck the 303 case to use easily available 308 bullets (7.62 mm). This allows the use of a standard 30 caliber barrel simply fitted to 303 action.(Beware, Whitworth threads !) This produces a 600 yard target rifle.

Whoopps. Forgot to mention the 7.62 British requires a custom chamber reamer but it is a small modification from the standard reamer (JGS Reamers have a pattern).

[Clark]

I have a ~1000 once fired of 303 Brit brass.
I have ~4 Enfields.

I came up with a system for soldering shims on the bolt face to reduce headspace. Others have come up with the same fix.

I think it is a good cartridge, but the Enfield action has such springy bolt that the brass gets stretched. Not a good action for a handloader.

The problems:
1) springy bad for reloaders
2) .318" across the grooves in some barrels, hard to find bullets that do not keyhole
3) #3 size bolt heads for #4 actions hard to find
4) ugly rifle will never be worth much as a sporter

The good side:
1) cheap
2) some are accurate
3) 303 is a good cartridge

[shooter503]

Someone borrowed my Enfield bible and never returned it so I can't check the difference in lengths between the various bolt heads. Since I seem to remember they ranged from 0 to 4 the difference for each step could not have been very much. (I just measured some "0s" and some "1s". There is a lot of variation but the average difference seems to be about 3 to 5 thou,).

One way of dealing with the so called springy bolt problem and the lack of the next size of bolt head is to resize carefully. On first firing a new case will stretch to accomodate the actual head space available. As long as this is not terribly excessive the case will accept the stretch - this is actually fire-forming of the case and it is best done deliberately as per accepted practices (See P.O. Ackleys books on reloading and cartridge conversion). Subsequently the case is resized very carefully so that the case shoulder is not set back. There will be no appreciable stretching of the case on subsequent firings if loads are reasonable. The problem is that you are tailoring one case to fit one rifle and cases must not be interchanged between firearms.

This is not the most satisfactory procedure but it will work for a special application. I use this procedure with a 303 Martini Enfield that showed a very large headspace, also with a genuine "African" 303 with a cordite eroded throat so that I could shoot it with lead bullets.

There must be a bunch of new bolt heads somewhere. Perhaps our Canadian correspondents know of a source. There are probably tens of thousands of them in some army depot in England.

[Jim K]

Hi, Shooter503 and guys,

Once again, there is a misunderstanding of the difference between an oversize chamber and excess headspace. The case of an oversize/overlong chamber can be handled by reloading, as Shooter503 says.

But true excess headspace, where the case head is not supported due to wear of the locking lugs or the lug seat can only be dealt with by replacing the bolt or changing bolt heads; no fireforming technique can possibly help.

Just FYI, here is a picture of a case fired in an SMLE with excess headspace. I don't think careful reloading will allow the case to be used again. (The magazine was blown apart, the stock split, the receiver rails bent, and the rifle pretty well wrecked. Fortunately, no injuries except a scratched arm.)

Jim

[Jim K]

Sorry, here is the picture:

[shooter503]

Jim,

Headspace is a measurement. Clearly there can be headspace, more headspace and excessive headspace.

I would be interested to know the headspace in the gun that ruptured the cartridge case. Many Enfields were put together from a bucketful of parts by unscrupulous individuals just to complete a rifle for sale, There were no safety checks completed at all. I have personally seen a 303 with entirely the wrong bolt end installed. This rifle would have likely ruptured a cartridge case. The first alarm bell should ring if the bolt serial number does not match the action serial number.

Your photo is a little difficult to see. Do you have a more detailed photo? Is the dark area on the left a broad rupture? The headspace must have been enormous to move the rupture forward of the web of the case. What type of cartridge was that? Another possibility is that some old cartridges suffered from metal deterioration. There were also some heavily loaded cartridges made for aircraft and heavy machine gun use.

[shooter503]

TTT

[Sunray]

"...Headspace is a measurement..." Headspace is NOT a measurement. It's a manufacturing tolerance. A mismatched bolt serial number means nothing if the bolt doesn't close on a No-Go or Field headspace guage. There's no reason to assume that a matching serial numbered bolt has the original bolt head or that the action/bolt is the same as it was when made. Both can be compressed over the 50 to 60 plus years since the rifle was made.
In any case, headspace guages measure nothing. They only tell you if the headspace is within spec. No amount of shoulder adjustment will fix bad headspace on a .303. The cartridge headspaces on the rim, not the shoulder.
If the headspace is excessive, a ruptured case is the least of your worries. It's entirely possible for the bolt to come back into your head.

[shooter503]

Sunray,

I am not advocating any dangerous practices here. I am pointing out realities.

Whether you like it or not, in practice, headspace is a measurement. You measure it so, in actual fact, it is a measurement. Whether you use a gage as a Go/No Go indicator or whether you use another measuring device does not matter as long as you measure the correct dimension. How you compare this measurement with the manufacturer's specifications is another matter. You are correct that technically headspace means something specific to manufacturers and armorers. However, in the case of a RIMMED cartridge one definition of headspace is the distance from the bolt face to the point that supports the front of the rim of the cartridge. Since the rim should (?) be of a specific thickness (or it can be accurately measured) headspace is indicated by the distance from the bolt face to the rear of the cartridge (the math is very simple). Ackley states that there are several interpretations of the word headspace and, in the case of a RIMMED cartridge, my interpretation is one of them. At this point we are not discussing RIMLESS cartridges.

True, a matched pair of serial numbers on the bolt and action means nothing - I never said it did. I said:
The first alarm bell should ring if the bolt serial number does not match the action serial number.
I did not say matched numbers meant everything is OK - I said unmatched numbers should certainly be a warning.

The cartridge headspaces on the rim, not the shoulder.
It is true that a RIMMED case is supposed to headspace on the rim. However, it is quite possible to get a RIMMED case to headspace by correctly positioning the shoulder during case forming in exactly the same way as is done for a RIMLESS case. I would be the first to agree this is a stopgap measure only to be used if the rifle cannot be put into service by any other method but it works. As long as the thick part of the web of the case is kept inside the barrel where it is correctly supported and the cartridge brass is not overworked during resizing there is no technical reason why a case can not be fired several times using this technique. If you think about it this is exactly the situation as is normal with a RIMLESS case. The head area of a RIMMED case is usually better supported by the chamber walls than is the head area of a RIMLESS case. This is because the extractor cutaway required by a RIMMED case is smaller than the cutaway required by a RIMLESS case. In some cases the extractor cutaway of a RIMMED case barely removes metal from the actual chamber walls at all (Enfield and P14 Enfield).

[Clark]

I know a gunsmith who accidentally made his own 243 headspace .050" too long.

He never corrected it, just expanded the necks on some brass and sized it to fit the chamber.

He has been getting long brass life and is happy with his incorrectly headspaced 243.

But he is not using an Enfield action and he is not using 303 Brit brass.

But brass stretching problems with 303 Brits go further than that.

SAAMI is .054" to .064" rim thickness for cartridges and .064 to .071" chamber.

In my 303 brass collection, I actually have measurements varying from .054 to .064", but most will fit with an .062" chamber that I shimmed to get.

Another major problem is the bolt. It has the lug in the rear, and it is a thin hollow tube. I did a calculation on the bolt compression for a frictionless cartridge, and for SAAMI pressure, it is enough to stretch the brass. [Ackley was right about the Enfield action being stretchy]

[shooter503]

I see what you are saying Clark and agree this is not a matter to approach with no knowledge.

A final point I would make though is that despite their reputation as having a springy action every 303 has been proof tested in its life which is more than you can say for most rifles. The proof charge produces about 1.25 or 1.3 times the design pressure. Any dangerous springing tendency in the basic design would certainly have been exposed by the many years of proof testing that has been applied to these rifles. Springing to the extent of causing head space problems would certainly have been cause for rejection of an individual rifle or redesign of the action. Every part of the action is proofed, including the receiver, bolt and bolthead. In actual fact, the biggest weakness in the design was caused by the machining for the later version of the bolt head release. I was lucky enough to get a large amount of information from Miss Parker of the old Alfred J. Parker Company in Birmingham, England (this company prepared Bisley rifles and military sniper rifles - Miss Parker was one of the first female mechanical engineers in England). She told me that they never converted rifles with the new type bolt head release to 308 because of this problem.

It has the lug in the rear,
Of course, the Enfield has two locking lugs. The bolt is a hollow cylinder but it is strengthened by the rib that runs along the bolt forming the brace for one of the lugs.

ANY rifle will become dangerous with misuse so you can't blame a 303 if it causes problems after years of overloading.

[Jim K]

Yes, that is indeed a rupture and there really was excess headspace, a lot of it. The rifle was not mine, so I didn't keep it.

Jim

[MR]

I too am partial to the old 303. 303 barrels are available from Shilen, Krieger and Pacnor, so I think a gunsmith could convert anything to 303 if you have enough $$$$. I have made a sporter from a No 4, set the barrel back and rechambered, I made my own scope mount and used an ATI synthetic stock.
Just something from my limited experience, measure cases in front of the rim. SAAMI/Loading manuals list .455", the brass (New Unfired) I have measured go from .450" for Win and R-P and .453" for some S&B & WW II surplus. I have not made a cast of any of my chambers but I suspect that they are plenty large. I have a No 4 MK I* Savage with a #3 bolt head that swallows the field gauge, it has separated 1 case on it's first neck sized reload, after checking things out I could see the bulging right ahead of the solid web portion of the case. I am working with some reformed 30-40 Krag brass that goes .453" (REPEAT REFORMED 30-40 BRASS, NOT AMMO), so far I have got 2 loadings with no problems.
mr

[Carl N. Brown]

Casings fired in my No.1 MarkIII* are noticably expanded
in the shoulder area, compared to a factory, unfired
cartridge. What I have been told is that since
the cartridge headspaces at the rim, the shoulders of the
chamber in the barrel are oversized to accommodate
fouling, dirt, etc. under battlefield conditions.