[MatthewVanitas]

Dumb question, bear with.

I was thinking about the various weapons laws, and how many "cool" but pointless weapons are illegal.

I will agree that anyone carrying a nunchucks in public is probably a colossal dork, but that's beside the point. I was pondering that many legal blunt objects are as dangerous as, or far more so, than nunchucks.

What is it about nunchucks that would make them a desirable weapon? Is there some momentum advantage in having the hitting stick swing behind the handle stick? Or is it just that two 1.5' sticks that can fold in half are more concealable than one 3' stick that doesn't?

Is there any actual advantage besides concealment, and looking like a Bruce Lee wannabe until you hurt yourself?


(Side note: my favorite "idjit with cool weapon" scene was from Romper Stomper, where the skinhead wielding the chain manages to smack himself in the face during a fight.)

-MV

[CWL]

Nunchaku are a type of flail weapon. They work by using momentum to increase speed of strike which multiplies the impact force on a target. An added advantage is that speed & motion allow a knowledgable user to change direction of strikes in midair & make multiple strikes on an opponent. In pre-firearm days, flails also allowed a user to make an attack over the defender's shield.

Flails originated in Asia & Europe as farm implements for separating husks from grains and common to all poor farmers. They could be be carried without raising suspicions of the constabulatory. A "farmboy" who has been using one all his life certainly understood how to use them to crack an opponent's skull if necessary.

[zinj]

IIRC Very little is known about historical Nunchaku, even how they were used. There is a strong possibility that they were never considered a true weapon and were instead used in displays of martial coordination and dexterity, much like drill rifles today.

[Don Gwinn]

Nunchaku are excellent for making 1970's martial arts movies.

For everything else, not so much.

[AdamXBT]

I Know How To Use It A Little,And Yes It Hurts Very Well,But With Practice Are Easy To Use.Some Professional Use Two At Same Time Very Quick,These Are A Level Very High To Me...:neener: But Is Cool.

[rwc]

About 20 yeasr ago I learned a kata for them and had a few bruises to show for it. Something else I learned at the time is that they also can provide good leverage/control if you bind someone's hand or arm between them. Sort of a "nut-cracker" feeling. :D

[7ranquilcitizen]

Darn thread got me thinking of "once upon a time in high school". http://youtube.com/watch?v=xf1kFEUF-uU

the nun chuck fighting is about 5:10 into the clip. just that scene alone made me so buy the movie.

[rustymaggot]

i have no martial arts training whatsoever. that said, heres my take.

they are exeptionally mean and effective. very few of the hollywood moves are useful. keep it simple and brutal and they work. also, the octagon shaped ones break bones better cause of the sharper angles.

if you really want to practice and know what they do when you hit stuff then you have to actually hit stuff. be prepared for the spring back when you hit a solid target, and be prepared for misses and know where the striking handle is going to end up. forget about the behind the back crap, and forget about the two pairs stuff.

[tellner]

A big stick is much more effective.

[Arkie]

I've tried to use the Nunchaku but I usually put more pain on me than someone else. LOL...

I'll stick with the Bo Staff. :D

[Zero_DgZ]

I have a pair of metal collasping ones (think two short ASP batons connected by a chain) and can vouch that, for something that I can literally fold up and stick in my shirt pocket, the things would be an extremely brutal weapon if I ever needed to use them as such.

Think blackjacks, saps, those springy ASP style batons...

Nunchaku work using the same velocity multiplying mechanism as mideval flails (though they're much lighter) and can bring a lot more kinetic energy (translation: wallop) to a target than it looks like they can. With a pair you can swing figure eights or similar very quickly and set up a perimiter in front of yourself that nobody without a gun or a pike could get through without being beaten very profusely.

Nunchaku with chains (as opposed to rope) are also very good for catching knife strikes, binding opponent's arms/legs/necks, and all sorts of other things. But at its core, a pair of nunchaku is simply a portable beating stick that's hard to top.

[Steel Talon]

Hello Matthew...

The problem w/the Nunchaku is controlling the recoil of hitting it is difficult to maintain a flow of movement when it is firing back at you:eek: Spinning them in the air for an audience is a whole different thing. Yes, for a money shot they can crippel a BG quickly and for binds, come-alongs and chokes they work very well. But for multiple strikes they are very difficult to master. PLus they would be difficult to conceal.

For a non-firearm weapon a Yawara (my favorite) is quite effective as a fist load , striker, and submissions device. It can be carried in the hip pocket. It can be eloborately made with pointed or domed ends, or can be an inconspicuous 6 inch piece of 1/2-3/4 diameter wood dowel. It can even be a magazine loaded with quarters and rolled up when needed. Yawaras can come in many forms, and names ie Koppo, Kubaton ..... BUt all do the job of fist loads, stikers, and submissions.

Arnis/escrima are great FMA to learn however carrying around 1 or 2 bamboo sticks is a bit noticable:) Dog Brothers philosophical approach to training is great, but there are still rules and controls in place when they have combat matches. To include minimal body protecting ie. Head gear with face shield and gloves.

A cane is much easier to conceal in the open, a little bit of drama such as walking with it correctly (no swaggering) is all that is needed. A fighting cane, needs to be solid (mine are hickory), have a good hook diameter with a steep "duck bill" (hooking and diggin') It should also have along its length finger grooves for gripping. Hapkido offers great cane fighting training techniques. As does others.

A knife, even in the hands of an "untrained" fighter is an effective PSD.

Peace
Steel Talon:cool:

[bakert]

tellner>"A big stick is much more effective."
I kinda likes a sawed off pick handle to carry in my truck. It works!!:eek:

[El Tejon]

Advantages? No. They are popular for the same reason that many less than optimal firearms are popular or switchblades are popular--presence in motion pictures.

They are among the more feckless "weapons" on the earth which would rank with the rope dart and the three sectional staff. The three sectional staff prominent in many northern CMA systems is thrice as difficult (only weapon that I am afraid of) to learn but at least has some utility.

Qin na with flails is such a rare probability that I cannot imagine the level of training for it to be successful (instructor level and beyond). Nunchuku has zero utility, but it is present in movies.:)

[tellner]

My first Silat teacher went to a martial arts to do sponsored by, and I quote :barf: "The Northwest Mafia". Participants were supposed to bring their favorite fighting stick and fighting knife. He gave a lot of folks the creeping horrors and couldn't find anyone to work with him. His "stick" was a pick handle wrapped in two yards of barbed wire. His "knife" was a meat axe.

[Beatnik]

The problem w/the Nunchaku is controlling the recoil of hitting it is difficult to maintain a flow of movement when it is firing back at you

Forgive the soapboxing....

This really points out the absurdity of the general belief that eastern weapons are somehow superior to western weapons.

For example, the katana was not a superior sword in any sense of the word. It was made for a different purpose, out of crap materials. If they had D2 steel, they would have forged it from one piece.

You'd be hard pressed to find a European flail that does what you mention. They are all short chained with a smaller head than a handle, which means that no matter how you swing it, if you keep it away from your head and body it's not going to smack you.

Nunchaku will always smash your fingers.

There is a resurgence recently in European reenactment communities and choreographers to rediscover European martial arts. I am no expert, but from what I've seen, they emphasize the brutal simplicity other posters have mentioned so far.

East: from horse stance, spinning back kick to crane stance... blah blah...

West: take both fists, and smash his neck mightily on either side of his larynx.

It's going to be really interesting in the next 20 years or so to see how much of it they rediscover. For now, I'm going to stick with 21st century self defense.

[Steel Talon]

>>>Forgive the soapboxing....

This really points out the absurdity of the general belief that eastern weapons are somehow superior to western weapons.

For example, the katana was not a superior sword in any sense of the word. It was made for a different purpose, out of crap materials. If they had D2 steel, they would have forged it from one piece.<<<

Hello Beatnik..

No problem soapboxing, me I perfer knuckle boxing;)

I'm not sure of your logic towards my statement.. being
>>>The problem w/the Nunchaku is controlling the recoil of hitting it is difficult to maintain a flow of movement when it is firing back at you<<<

I stand by that statement based on my experiences with them..

I believe there are better choices than Nunchaku (based on the thread question) for carrying a conceald non firearm weapon.

Sorry for the thread drift...

As for a Katana, its carries an extremely deeper meaning (spritual) to the swords master,, There is a saying "Master the sword, master your mind" which also transends to western beliefs also.

The Katana itself is a "cleaving weapon" parry and thrust is part, but it is used more in parry cleave if that. Your basic sets of strikes are ( - X Z I T) The goal is to cut your opponent down. To grip the katana is in the same manner of how Ty Cobb would grip his baseball bat. Its a push pull movement that focuses the power to the last 2 inches of the blade.

There is an Iiado art soley dedicated for drawing, striking ,and resheathing in one fluid movement (first strike) as for the historical manufacture of Katanas I have held some truly awsome pieces from historical Japanese swordsmiths.

I also agree with you on your thoughts of Western MA I believe that the traditional Bowie knife is the premium CQB weapon. Look to Colonel Applegates Smachete, its size and use same principle.

However a kerambit is a wicked tool in the hands of a Silat trained fighter. Given one focus of use is to "Peel" the flesh away from your opponent:what: But I also understand any knife even in the hands of a untrained person is /can be devastating.

In a fudal combat Pikes, Poles, Axes, Flails,and swords layed waste to many a soldier. (Hence the use of Archers first) They have nothing to do with an alternate to concealable firearms.

IMHO...Ultimately, a person who trains in the Martial Arts (east or west) needs to pracrice / understand open handed combat, traditional and non traditional weapons, improvised weapons combat, and firearms combat. Primarily situational awareness ie. paying attention. Its about creating an avenue of escape and taking it.

End of thread drift..:)

Sorru for the poor spelling and gramar its been a long day.

Peace
Steel Talon:cool:

[Zero_DgZ]

Advantages? No. They are popular for the same reason that many less than optimal firearms are popular or switchblades are popular--presence in motion pictures.

They are among the more feckless "weapons" on the earth which would rank with the rope dart and the three sectional staff.

I'll make you a deal. You let me hit you with one, and then you can tell me if it's ineffective.

Not that I have any illusions about my kung-fu skill (or lack thereof) but given the choice between a stick and a pair of nunchucks I'll take the nunchucks. Of course, given the additional option of a knife and I'll take the knife, gun and I'll take the gun...

[tellner]

Give me a good stick and I'll take odds against the nunchuks. Give me a pick handle and I'll take any odds you care to give.

[alucard0822]

The nunchaku are a relatively modern "weapon" they came about during the early 1900s as a training aid by cantonese martial artists to try to increase dexterity and reflexes and wrist strength. they were not even originally intended to be a weapon, but became instantly popular because of their use in bruce lee's jeet-kun-do forms in his movies. they are now used by some chinese and japanese police in place of batons. the nunchaku can be flipped over a persons wrist and when the handles are pulled together apply control and pressure to the base of the thumb and wrist to detain someone. As an offensive weapon they have a good chance of rebounding from a strike and hitting the user. I have seen footage of chinese police who hold the top of each end in each hand and use them individually as small batons, then use the chain or rope (twards the officer) to block.

[RyanM]

The real physics on a nunchaku vs. a stick of the same length (combined) and weight, is basically the old heavy and slow vs. light and fast argument. Again. Can we never get away from that??? :)

Basically, a solid stick allows you to get a small fraction of your body weight behind the blow, but speed is limited to how fast you can swing, plus a bit due to the extra length (assuming the stick isn't a significant encumberance, angular velocity is about the same as if you were swinging nothing, but because of the extra length, instantaneous linear velocity towards the tip is much faster than the instantaneous linear velocity of your hand).

By adding a flexible point in the middle, you make the outer stick move on a very tight arc in addition to the usual (very complex) arm and hand arc, adding a considerable amount of velocity. But the trade-off is the striking weight is limited to the weight of the stick.

Basically a difference of leverage (effective weight). Contrary to what people say, a longer weapon gives you less striking leverage than a short one, but higher velocity. So adding a flexible point is basically a way of artificially lengthening the weapon, without adding actual size or weight.

[tellner]

The solid stick is much better for defense and allows more effective thrusting attacks. It has the virtue of simplicity. Many of the skills and techniques are applicable (with slight modification) to other important weapons like the big knife.

[plexreticle]

Nunchucks are great for knocking yourself out.

[iiibdsiil]

I've seen a couple people in person that I would darn near give up even with a gun in my hand against when they had their nunchucku.

But, I bet it looks a lot more fancy and faster moving then it really is. Eh, thinking back, maybe not.

[2TransAms]

No less than three of my friends (more like people I know) have given themselves wounds needing stitches with nunchuks,and another knocked himself unconscious..in his dorm room...by himself. His roommate found him on the floor. Good times,good times.

I suppose they're like anything else...a useful tool if you have the training to use it, or something to hurt yourself with if you don't.

[Don Gwinn]

also, the octagon shaped ones break bones better cause of the sharper angles.
Source?

With a pair you can swing figure eights or similar very quickly and set up a perimiter in front of yourself that nobody without a gun or a pike could get through without being beaten very profusely.

Have you actually done this? I'm having a hard time figuring out how the Figure 8 means I get beaten profusely. At most, if I time it wrong or you're pretty good, you hit me once with the thing. If that knocks me out in one blow, well and good. If not, then most likely we're in a clinch, I'm taking you down/you're defending, or we're on the ground. Maybe if I darted in to throw a jab or an overhand right, you'd get to hit me more than once, but I've never known anyone who was very good at hitting multiple strikes with nunchaku. With very good footwork, maybe. . . . but I'd have to see it done to believe it. I think it's a lot more likely you might give me a bruise or a knot or two in the process of losing the fight. I'm not confident in the utility of replacing timing and judgement with a pattern of figure eights.

[tellner]

The assumption here is that the other guy is unarmed and helpless. Stick anything into the Flashing Flails(tm) and they become unguided missles.

[JohnL2]

Whatever you do don't end up like this guy.

nunchuck dude needs more practice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsEZ2lpM0Yw)

[MrAcheson]

I once asked some of my martial artist friends what nunchucks were good for. They said "hitting yourself in the head."

[Don Gwinn]

Somewhere on Bullshido there's a great story by a pro fighter about the time the new guy got goaded into a match with nunchaku vs. unarmed. Omega was unarmed. The other guy was not seriously injured, which I guess is good.

I wish I could find it!

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

You guys tend to know a lot about firearms, but I am amazed at the misunderstanding displayed on this thread regarding nunchakus.

Nunchaku are excellent for making 1970's martial arts movies.

For everything else, not so much

nunchuks will definitely smash your fingers

etc etc

-----

Would you expect someone who has shot a handgun three times in his life to accurately comment on various reliability issues or concealment tactics of autos and revolvers? What gives you the expert status you place on yourself regarding primitive weapons such as nunchaku.

Here is my opinion.
Nunchaku are one of the most useful and powerful hand held primitive weapons available. They generate many times over, 100's of percent beyond what is required to crack bone. In addition they are useful in many control techniques. Chokes, sensitive area strikes, leverage for locks, fingers, wrist, elbows, kness, collarbone, spine. . . They allow far more room for escalation of force in a combative scenario than say, a knife, or sword, and can do far more ultimate damage with less effort than simple spray mace or a short staff.

When traveling abroad I often manufactured a pair from sawed broom handles, eye screws, and rope. Though simple, when hung on a belt and carried in ghetto's and jungle they are great, and disassembled are easily transported through various checkpoints without hassle.

They are fast, and simple. Flashy drills are for familiarity, it seems like you guys have been spending too much time on YOUTUBE. Against a knife, anyone with even moderate training would likely prefer a pair of these tools. They can change directions in attack deceptively and quickly.

Only an arrogant and foolish man with little experience would so harshly critique this good tool, that's what it is, a tool.

As for practice, yes you may get hurt. I have chronic bursitis of the elbow from too many impacts. Now I can't afford to even be hit there once with hardwood. I wear elbow pads for simple training these days, I would have started long ago had I known better.

Concealable, easily maunfactured from available materials, powerful, fast, and often underestimated. . . all components of a good weapon.


ST

edit: flash does have one purpose. In the old days, it was said you could often gauge the skill of a swordsman by the way he handled himself. Rules are often broken , at time for strategy, but if seated apart from , or preparing to duel a man and he ties up the sleeves of his Hakama with great one handed skill, or he maintains eye contact through a preparatory measure, or otherwise demonstrates complete and total concentration and years of training, it may do something for him. I myself don't really go for all that stuff...but disassembling a battle rifle in the dark, wet, timed, isn't completely useless.

[Beatnik]

Sorry Steel Talon, I was reading it wrong - you're addressing the nunchaku from the perspective of a trained martial artist. Yes, I can totally see how when you actually hit something it would bounce back unpredictably and that would trip you up.

I was coming from a step farther back: the nunchaku isn't a real flail weapon purely by design. It's got two equal length parts. No matter where you grasp it, if you swing it, it's going to eventually double back and smash your hand. Even agricultural flails aren't like that - they have a staff with a short head, just like European flails.

It obviously has purposes other than simply flailing. So it seems to me that unless you've got training, it's designed to smash your hand. To answer the question, "What is it about nunchucks that would make them a desirable weapon", I would say "without additional training, absolutely nothing." I don't have the training, so I'd rather have the stick.

But that's my European combat mindset working there. Take this observation:

The goal is to cut your opponent down.

The Vikings made pattern welded swords as well, with equal artistry and possibly as much (albeit different) spiritual meaning - but the object for the Vikings was not so much to "cut your opponent down". I remember that Musashi talks about "cutting" in the same way - a single, decisive blow. Vikings would have been content to stab you in the face and leave you clutching what used to be your nose - alive, inelegant, and out of my way.

I think nunchaku kind of follow the same mindset as the katana. There's a transcendental elegance to them which requires training. Just like with other eastern disciplines, if you put the training into them they'll be deadly.

But if you're looking to get someone "out of your way" (or put them on the ground) as quickly as possible, I agree with your statement about there are better alternatives - in my opinion, more European-mindset style alternatives - for a concealed non-firearm weapon.

Like, for instance, pepper spray.

But this isn't meant to dis eastern combat in any way - Obviously I dig on eastern thought enough to know something about it. I'm just pointing out what I think is the difference.

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

.

[tellner]

Beatnik,

I've seen some of the braided Scandinavian swords. They are beautiful and very functional. But honestly, they are nowhere near as well made or have as sophisticated metallurgy as the Japanese blades or the wootz and pulad weapons (aka "Damascus") of the Hindu and Muslim worlds.

Sam,

I've had the training. In my considered and somewhat educated opinion the nunchaku just aren't as useful or effective as some similar weapons. Equal training and similar physicality? I'll take a baton the same length, a short staff or just about any real sword. The wooden flail is a field-expedient weapon. It's nobody's first choice for war or civilian defense.

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

with baton...

just that they are easily recognized as such by 3d world police :D


I hear ya, I just felt like the chucks were getting a bad rap because of loser internet karate masters
st


added:
more European-mindset style alternatives - for a concealed non-firearm weapon.

Like, for instance, pepper spray.

and keep in mind the translation of favored budo taijutsu techniques from Japan; Metsubishi = "Eye Blinders" !

[tellner]

"Eye blinders"?

Just carry a few printouts of goatse or tubgirl. Still legal although heaven knows they cry out for punishment. The bad guy will run away looking for a grapefruit spoon to scoop out his own eyes and sawdust to stuff into the bleeding sockets. Aren't the Intrawebs useful? :evil:

[telomerase]

Nunchaku were rice flails (supposedly first used in Okinawa against Japanese bandits, but I'm sure actually first experimented with about ten minutes after someone invented the rice flail). They were just something that you could use if you couldn't get a real sword.

The modern equivalents would be things like garage door openers, remote control toys, etc.... certainly not nunchaku, which are viewed as "weapons" but are not.

[Beatnik]

I've seen some of the braided Scandinavian swords. They are beautiful and very functional. But honestly, they are nowhere near as well made or have as sophisticated metallurgy as the Japanese blades or the wootz and pulad weapons (aka "Damascus") of the Hindu and Muslim worlds.

I've been pondering this all weekend, so here's a major derailment:

I'm interested in your sources. I reviewed what I have in my books, which admittedly are geared more toward 11th-16th century continental weapons and armor - and I could not find a single example of a Viking sword which was not dredged from a river or unearthed from a grave.

So, what is the rationale behind stating that Japanese blades are more well made? It seems to me that the fact that they are only 200 years old and are family heirlooms, and didn't spend 1200 years under running water, may have something to do with your statement - or else you're looking at a replica which was made in the last 20 years by an American backyard hobbyist for sale to a reenactment company (the best case scenario) or made by an Indian child laborer for sale at Ren Faires and Star Trek conventions (more likely).

Surviving examples are rare, and in horrible condition. We can tell what they were like through archaeological evidence, and some have remnants of their ornamentation left. But casting a "more poorly made" blanket over all Viking swords is a bit like saying you wouldn't want to be buried in the Giza pyramids because they're falling to pieces and there's a Kentucky Fried Chicken right in front of them.

As far as metallurgy goes, I will freely admit that Japanese swords are more work intensive. As I hinted before, they have to be, because their steel is crap. Asian steel has only in the last 10-20 years gotten to the point of being usable for anything as-is.

All of coastal Europe was on the Vikings' hit list, and they are famous as traders as well as warriors, so they could get the best quality steel that dark ages Europe had to offer. Incidentally, Vikings also served the Byzantine emperors as bodyguards, which means that some of them also had access to steels available in the middle east.

According to dictionary.com, the word "metallurgy" connotes both the science of alloying metals and the working of metals to give them desired properties.

I'll give you that Japanese weapons were worked in a more sophisticated manner, but this doesn't make them superior, it makes them functional. Once you inject decent materials into the process, however, it makes all the extra resources (fuel) and all that highly skilled manual labor unnecessary. That's why my Global Kitchen knives (Japanese manufacture) are simply made of German steel instead of being forge welded a dozen times.

Of course I am only speculating that Vikings actually used superior materials, since unfortunately Europe in general isn't much into doing metallurgical analyses on their artifacts. (In fairness, such tests are often destructive.) But based on the facts that they had access to superior steel, generally only the phenomenally wealthy Vikings had swords to begin with, and they'd put hundreds of man hours into manufacturing each one, I don't think it's that big a stretch. It's even possible that some were made from wootz.

So superior metallurgy? A tie maybe, since it's a combination of both materials and labor.

Hopefully this will bring readers to realize that Japanese weapons are not by nature more deadly or superior - just different. They were simply used for different purposes. A katana will cut a man in half - a Viking sword will not. A Viking sword will repeatedly split helms without focusing any chi - a katana will not.

One must always evaluate weapons based on what the intended purpose is. That's why everyone who posts looking for the perfect CCW gets pumped for more info - such as, what are all the purposes? Simply carry, or is this also a range gun?

So, as far as nunchaku go: Pepper spray will put someone on the ground in about 3 seconds with no special training, nunchaku will not. Nunchaku will dislocate someone's arm, pepper spray will not. What is your goal?

[Tbu61]

Bruce Lee stuff...
Well yeah, that's how they became publicized, much like the S&W 29 and Clint Eastwood.

Given proper instruction, they provide a fantastic aerobic workout and sharpen reflexes. Back in the 80's I had 3 sets, light Training, padded heavies and working heavies.

All joking aside, the leverage provided by the "joint" can provide lightening speed to the stick. Speed = Energy.

Again Training and Practice make the Nunchaku a very effective defensive weapon. Practice also allows for an effective back swing that a regular stick cannot provide. Once learned, the sticks become more than just a defensive weapon.

They are fantastic for prisoner control a-la "Nutcracker"

Oh yes, you do take some lumps along the way, but so do Boxers in training.

[tellner]

I'll have to disagree on the "Scandinavian swords are just as good" bit. There has been extensive work done on the materials and characteristics of Japanese, Near Eastern, Indian and European swords over the years. We know an awful lot about them down to the molecular level. The fine Wootz and Pulad swords and good Japanese ones really are head and shoulders above everything else. The nice people over at Sword Forum could give you much more precise information.

[spooney]

Wouldn't a stick 3' long hit harder than two 1.5' long sticks joined by a chain as the longer stick would have more leverage behind it?

[SniperStraz]

Before ASP batons they were the ultimate in concealable contact weapons.

[cpaspr]

a set of chucks can be deadly. Nigh on thirty years ago I handed a pair to someone I had heard was good. He was! I knew what he was doing, what moves he was making, but I couldn't really "see" them to attempt to get past them. By that, I mean they were moving so fast that any attempt by a BG to sneak past with a blow or a blade would probably break bones.

Now in my hands, I'd get hurt right quick. Haven't seriously swung a pair in over 25 years.

Oh, and thanks to Bruce Lee and the movies, they're considered an illegal concealed weapon, "a slugging device", in many states.

[Geronimo45]

"Wouldn't a stick 3' long hit harder than two 1.5' long sticks joined by a chain as the longer stick would have more leverage behind it?"
I'd say no. I think you'll have the majority of the energy of a blow transferred to the target, while if you hit something with a solid stick, you'll be absorbing some of the energy with your wrist.

See it as a baseball bat versus a belt. If you hit a stump with a baseball bat, you'll feel it, no doubt about that. If you take a belt and put a three-pound weight on the end, and swing it at said stump, you should feel much less 'recoil' from the blow.

Bruce Lee aside, nunchucks seem like a Japanese version of the blackjack to me.

[Lucky]

I won't argue that hitting someone on the head with speed knocks people out (I knocked a buddy who stood behind me out with my wrist when skipping a rock).

But what about momentum? When you swing the stick it will have momentum density, and thus penetrate and maybe do stuff like bruise organs. Like you said, the hinge gives the hinged section speed, but less mass.


Also, I wonder if having Nunchuko would really be better than a knife? If you have a knife in one hand and your weak hand empty couldn't you just grab the nunchuko and start stabbing?


That 'figure 8' thing is probably bunk. In kung-fu we learned a few years on stick (bo, staff, whatever), and with a bit of timing you can twirl it in front of you like a figure-8, but the teacher was quite clear that if he saw that he'd just stick his stick into that and let you break your wrist. We had 'bridge' and 'position', IOW setting up for an action, and the action. 'Twirling' just doesn't really fit into that (though it may be proper in other schools)

[Zoogster]

They are extremely effective, and as someone said the non circular shaped ones apply all that force along thin ridges and break bones, 2x4's etc easily.

There is a major difference in weight and even a difference in dimensions for those ideal for display, like you see in movies, and those for delivering massive blows. The heavy ones don't rebound back on attack like some mentioned unless your hitting metal if someone follows through the movement and keeps the tension on the chain. I would rather be hit with a baseball bat than proper nunchaku. At least with the bat you can get inside if you can counter a single swing, or dodge, take the blow on the inside etc, with the nunchaku many more blows of greater damage can be brought down on you in the same time span.

A single blow with the 4, 6 or 8 sided nunchaku that is weighted for damage and not display purposes will break whatever bone it comes into contact with, and unlike a solid item that would do similar damage is far from slow or cumbersome, and is portable and concealable. They can quickly deliver multiple blows, but even one of such blows is likely to end the fight. On top of that if one wishes to use less lethal force they are helpful in locks and leverage holds, but that places one at more risk.

Flails like the ball and chain (with spikes or edges) in Europe could easily smash through armor, the heavy damage weighted nunchaku, especialy the non cylindrical kind function very similar and can easily crush bone with minimal effort, and allow for easier carry. The chain is not long enough to make them unwieldy, yet still gives vastly increased leverage and hence speed and force delivered in blows.


I would much rather have them than a knife. However a sword would be even better, yet that is not concealable.
Most fighting philosophies using melee weapons involved progressive stages changing weapons. Whether it was knights that used lances and finished with battle hammers to crush through the enemies armor (unlike reinactments swords were not a prefered weapon for attacking a plate armored opponent as they have to be designed as little more than fortified spears) or tribes that throw some type of throwing axe or spear etc before closing with long range melee weapons like pikes spears etc. Medium ranged (for melee) weapons which did the majority of the fighting, like swords, battle axes, hammers, etc. Knives and daggers are grappling weapons just in case, a backup if caught wrestling with an opponent.
Even the Romans started with javelins, before closing with wounded enemy with sword and shield. No single weapon is ideal for all stages of combat.
Very rarely did one consider a single weapon ideal for an entire fight suitable unless they were just a hit and run raiding type party that did not plan to encounter progressive tactics.
Nunchaku would be along the lines of a medium-short ranged concealable weapon. A medium ranged edged weapon would still be better, but they easily trump a short ranged edge weapon, and are about as concealable as a short ranged edged weapon.

This would be akin to arguing whether a rifle or a pistol is better. Sure one is more powerful, more suitable for planned combat, but is less likely to be there when needed and less suitable in close quarters. Just because one is used does not mean you don't strap the other to your side. The rifle would be akin to the old medium ranged melee weapons like swords, axes, hammers etc, and the pistol to the last ditch dagger if needed. The long range melee would be akin to mortars and RPGs. The ancient old ranged akin to artillery and airstrikes. Tanks and Bradleys akin to mounted infantry. So the progressive arms and usage are similar, just using very different tools.

[Lucky]

I wonder what the numbers work out to? If you're spinning it 5 rotations per second, and it's outside tip is a foot away, that's 15 feet/second, and if you move your arm forward at another 15f/s you've got a total 30f/s, and the mass is the mass of the one handle.

What would that mass be, and are those numbers generous enough?


http://www.physicspost.com/articles.php?articleId=80&page=2

[RyanM]

30 fps? Maybe if a particularly uncoordinated and weak toddler were swinging the things.

Almost anyone can manage a fastball pitch of 60-70 mph with some practice, so let's say that's the maximum speed a normal person can swing their arm with little weight. So maybe 40 mph with a stick.

That would be around 59 feet per second. Let's say the arm is 20" to the palm of the hand. So swinging a plain 24" stick (4" of which is used for the grip), the velocity at the tip would be around 118 fps. Assuming leverage is minimal (which it would be, if swinging one handed), and the stick weighs about 9 ounces... well, you'd want to hit below the tip, to maximize effective weight. So let's say 9 ounces at 100 fps, that's about 87.4 ft-lbs energy, and 1.75 lbs*ft/sec momentum.

A nunchaku or something... let's say in unskilled hands, it turns 180 degrees during the course of the blow. Assuming two 10" sticks and a 4" chain, the center of the free stick would move at an additional 53 fps, approximately. So the held stick protrudes about 6" past the hand, moving 77 fps at the area where the chain connects. The outer stick would weigh 3.75 ounces if it's made of material equivalent to the 24" stick. So 3.75 ounces at 130 fps. That's 61.6 ft-lbs energy and 0.95 lbs*ft/sec momentum.

Under the circumstances calculated, a stick is better.

[Lucky]

I think your momentum would actually be 30.47 lb/fps. (.23 pounds stick at 130 fps)

So you think the spinning stick would have a rotational velocity of 53 fps? I was assuming 5 rotations per second was pretty quick. If we put in your numbers, 14" including chain, then that's 7 rotations per second, twirling it. That's 53fps at the tip, to put 53fps at the middle of the stick would mean spinning really really really fast. That's really spinning fast.


So someone hitting with a solid stick would have, at the least (not counting the arm), twice the mass but 53fps less speed. In reality, though, you'd use your wrist to give the stick 1/4 of a rotation, so that speed could also be added. *** But to keep things minimal, let's pretend the solid stick will have twice the mass and half the speed: (0.47 pounds at 65 fps)*** That's be 30.47 lb/fps. :)


However I could point a scenario where a solid stick would have big big benefits. If you were to poke someone with a solid stick 24" stick and moving it at a mere 10 fps, applying 50 pounds of your weight you'd have 500 lb fps going at the other guy. 20fps, and it's 1000lb fps. Poke someone with 50 pounds and 40 fps and you have a full ton per foot per second of momentum.

[RyanM]

No, it's not 30.5 lb*ft/s anymore than it's 1943.5 ft-lbs.

Anyway, though, the velocity that you're adding the rotational velocity to is the speed of the tip of the held stick. A nunchaku would only hit at double the speed of a solid stick if each nunchaku stick is as long as the solid stick. But if the solid stick is over twice as long as the nunchaku-sticks, it still packs a decent whallop.

In other words, a 24" stick with a nunchaku flail on the end hits at twice the velocity of a plain 24" stick. A 10" stick with a nunchaku flail on the end may hit twice as fast as a 10" plain stick, but it only hits about 30 fps faster than the plain 24" stick. That's assuming that the flail stick goes 180 degrees during the course of the blow.

[Zoogster]

I think your forgetting one of the key calculations. Speed of multiple blows. A straight item would deliver one blow and be stopped before it would need to reverse course and be brought back for an additional swing if it connected. The nunchaku would be ready to land an additional blow in half the time as an additional blow could be given in its travel in the opposite direction in the same time span as the solid object would have been returned to position to start a new strike, and the nunchaku would have never stopped movement allowing for the target to make a grab for it or pull it away like a solid object.

[steeltiger]

the nunchuka were originalya farm implement for toting stuff in china when the goverment got scared of all the martial artist and suddeniy made ALL weopons illegal:cuss: as far as i know thats when it became a weopon by the way thats also how the stick sword came about i have practiced with several (5) chucks and have not ever injured myself thoughi thind they are virtualy useless i preferr a 3ft staff tomahawk bowie kukris pocket knife heck virtually anything:evil:

[xJumper]

I have trained with nunchaku, sticks and empty hand for close to 30 years. My personal preference would be empty hand, then stick, then nunchaku if those were my three options.

In my experience the nunchaku would not be a useful weapon for most people, as they simply do not have the skills necessary to wield it properly. Here are some random thoughts on the nunchaku in no particular order.

1. For the most part, the swinging moves such as the figure eight are more important as a training exercise to learn striking angles, and the flow of one strike into another, and dexterity. Only a very skilled practitioner could effectively attempt to use the figure eight as a "shield" against attack.

2. My favorite grip and stance with the nunchaku is underhand with the left and overhand with the right, held sort of like a boxing stance only with the right hand lower toward the ribs. This allows for very quick and powerful strikes with the lead left much like a left hook in boxing.

3. Honestly, if you are hitting yourself and inflicting damage to your own body, this is a problem. It will happen and has happened to me, but it should be fairly rare. In every case where I have struck myself, the error has been either caused by poor technique or lack of concentration or both. Much of your training should (must) include learning to rebound and redirect the swinging end of the nunchaku off of your body. Shoulders, arms, legs, back, neck, ribs, hips, butt, ..., you ge the idea.

4. The nunchaku, is able to strike over and around objects. This is a terrible example in modern times but is easy to visualize. You could strike over the top of a shield easily with the nunchaku. This would be more difficult with a stick.

5. Others have mentioned the ability to use the nunchaku as a "come along" trapping an arm or leg and using the two ends in a vise like fashion.

6. If you put in enough time, you will find that even the most obscure techniques have at least some practical value that is revealed through long practice, though it may not be readily apparent at first glance.

7. My greatest sugggestion to anyone that is interested in the nunchaku would be to get one that is not too heavy. Warm up properly with slow easy movements. Then practice using full power strikes once you have learned to execute the strike properly. Practicing at less than full speed is a waste of effort in my opinion.

8. For me the nunchaku is a great workout to build both speed and strength. Plus it is just fun!

Anyway, as you can probably tell, I love this weapon and have probably bored everyone enough.

Jumper out!

[hso]

Welcome to THR xJumper!

Not boring at all.

[Sniper X]

Here is the scientific definition of the physics of Nunchaku


Flying wood attached to another peice of wood by a peice of string equals OWW! when it impacts your elbow, or head.

[Phyphor]

Those're clearly inferior to this idea anyway: :neener: http://www.nuklearpower.com/comics/010815.gif

[xJumper]

There is a pretty good show that uses the scientific method to analyze the effectiveness of various martial art and weapons techniques. It is called "Fight Science". Check it out. They use motion capture and computer generated images along with live action footage and force testing using modified crash test dummies. You will like this show.