Which are the "good" M1 Carbines?


PDA






silverlance
January 1, 2007, 08:37 PM
I had an opportunity recently to shoot an all-USGI M1 Carbine the guy bought from ODCMP years ago.

I was able to blow off both ends of a yam on a stick at 75 yards, then finish it off right in the middle (yam was fist sized).

This was using wolf gold and iron sights.

Now I realize that CMP is coming out with M1's next year. I plan to be in line. However, I'd also like to get a real nice piece, one not mismatched and rack / field grade as these upcoming M1s likely will be.

Which are the good ones? I know the Inlands are frowned upon a bit, but not sure why. Is it because they are not mil spec?

If you enjoyed reading about "Which are the "good" M1 Carbines?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
mustanger98
January 1, 2007, 08:44 PM
Which are the good ones? I know the Inlands are frowned upon a bit, but not sure why. Is it because they are not mil spec?

As I recall, Inland was one of the GI makes. What you want to stay away from is Universal because not only are they not GI, GI parts won't even interchange.

DMK
January 1, 2007, 08:44 PM
There's nothing wrong with any of the USGI manufactures you'll get from CMP. Inland just made most of them so they aren't "special" like a Rockola or IBM.

Anything you get from CMP will probably be rebuilt with parts from various USGI manufacturers anyway. They'll just go by the receiver manufacturer.

Here's a list of all the manufacturers and how many were made:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/M1Carbine.htm

Braith-Wafer
January 1, 2007, 08:51 PM
Probably the Paratroop ones or the Full Auto version.

DMK
January 1, 2007, 08:59 PM
Probably the Paratroop ones or the Full Auto version.CMP already said on their forum there will be no M1A1s(the para) and there definitely won't be any M2s(the auto).

mustanger98
January 1, 2007, 09:03 PM
IIRC, the only difference between a regular M1 Carbine and the paratrooper version is the stock, the latter having a folder. If that's the case, if somebody wanted to put one in a folder, it's not out of the question... is it?

alamo
January 1, 2007, 09:15 PM
However, I'd also like to get a real nice piece, one not mismatched and rack / field grade as these upcoming M1s likely will be.


If that's what you want and from what I understand about these rifles, you'd better be prepared to pay big bucks. Maybe someone can give you and idea of what they'd cost.

DMK
January 1, 2007, 09:20 PM
IIRC, the only difference between a regular M1 Carbine and the paratrooper version is the stock, the latter having a folder. If that's the case, if somebody wanted to put one in a folder, it's not out of the question... is it?Sure, you can easily turn a M1 into a faux M1A1. I'm thinking about getting two and doing that very thing to one.

There are repro stocks around. SARCO has 'em. They're kinda pricy though. If you do it, just keep the gun's future in mind. Keep the old stock with the rifle and don't try to pass it off as a real M1A1 on some naive buyer.

I don't even want to know what an original M1A1 stock would go for if you could even find one(although what would be the point unless you had a real M1A1 with a bad stock).

The Real Hawkeye
January 1, 2007, 09:21 PM
I know the Inlands are frowned upon a bit.Really? I have an Inland. In fact most GI's who had an M1 Carbine in WWII carried an Inland. Who frowns on them? I never heard this in my life. :confused:

lionking
January 1, 2007, 09:22 PM
any contract carbine with original military parts even mixed I think would be real.Even it was rearsenaled,it just wont be "original from factory".

The only way a Inland could be "frowned" upon is collector wise they are the most common to be found,functionally they are just fine,some consider the best of made.

rarely do I link to another forum but this one deals with carbines specifically and you'll find good info here from serious carbine collectors.Again,a Scott Duff book would also be a good source.
http://www.ambackforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=43839

DMK
January 1, 2007, 09:30 PM
Cool link lionking. I forgot all about that forum.

To tell you the truth, I wouldn't be surprised if some carbines came right out of the factory as mixmasters. With high demand, subcontractors just barely meeting production, it probably want all that uncommon for parts to be substituted from various makers.

gezzer
January 1, 2007, 09:31 PM
90%+ of all M1 carbines are mis-matched done by the .gov when upgrading them after WWII. Any you find that are all factory original I'll bet were taken home by a GI in a duffle bag.

lionking
January 1, 2007, 09:50 PM
quote;To tell you the truth, I wouldn't be surprised if some carbines came right out of the factory as mixmasters. With high demand, subcontractors just barely meeting production, it probably want all that uncommon for parts to be substituted from various makers

in fact thats right.From what I remember reading,some manufactures cant remember specifically which ones did not produce certain parts (such as barrels) and had other brands used to complete the carbine.

BTW,I have a Inland Bluesky import with a aftermarket M1A1 folding stock.It shoots fine and is a really compact and handy carbine.

I also have a choice condition Inland with National Postmeter stock.

trbon8r
January 2, 2007, 12:41 AM
Has CMP announced the price they will be getting for their carbines?

MAKOwner
January 2, 2007, 03:24 AM
Do the regular M1s have the adjustable, more "modern" rear sight? I was thinking that was the M1A1s, but I didn't think those were just the folding stock models? Are those rear sight assemblies interchangable without tooo much work?

HiroProX
January 2, 2007, 03:26 AM
Heh, I'd love to have a M2 made by Rockola. It'd be... ironic.

U.S.SFC_RET
January 2, 2007, 07:08 AM
The CMP have not announced Prices nor limits. but I am wiling to bet anyone a dime to a dollar that the limit per person is going to be low.

Eightball
January 2, 2007, 07:39 AM
but I am wiling to bet anyone a dime to a dollar that the limit per person is going to be low.I hope it is; whatever they do, I hope they make it unrealistic for a dealer to come in and buy plenty, then resell them (seen it happen, makes me furious that they're taking advantage of it :fire: ). As long as I get one, though, I'm happy.

Father Knows Best
January 2, 2007, 10:38 AM
Do the regular M1s have the adjustable, more "modern" rear sight? I was thinking that was the M1A1s, but I didn't think those were just the folding stock models? Are those rear sight assemblies interchangable without tooo much work?
Early M1 carbines had a "flip" type two-position rear sight. You don't see many of those around, because the vast majority of M1 carbines were "upgraded" after the war with a host of features that were implemented during WWII. That's why even low serial number M1 carbines typically have the later style safety and rear sight, a bayonet lug, etc. If you come across a low number M1 carbine that is still in its original configuration, it's worth a LOT of money.

My bet is that the vast majority of the carbines CMP puts on sale will be "upgraded" models with all of the post-war mods. If they have any that are in their early war configuration still, they will be priced at 3-4 times what the upgraded ones sell for, or they will be auctioned. And don't expect to get bargains at auction. When they auction M1 Garands, the prices soar into the thousands. CMP is auctioning a few dozen M1C's and M1D's right now, and prices are astronomical. One of them was over $8,000 when I looked recently.

DMK
January 2, 2007, 11:12 AM
Speaking of upgrades, does anybody have a list of all of the post-war upgrades? I know there was the windage adjustable, ramped rear sight and the bayonet lug. What else?

Father Knows Best
January 2, 2007, 11:24 AM
Scott Duff's book on the M1 carbine goes into them in detail. I'm at work right now, and the book is at home, but if no one provides the list before today I will try to summarize them tonight or tomorrow. The best thing to do, though, if you're really interested in collecting M1 carbines is to buy Duff's book. You can get it through his website, and it's not expensive.

DMK
January 2, 2007, 11:28 AM
if no one provides the list before today I will try to summarize them tonight or tomorrowThat would be cool. Thanks!

kludge
January 2, 2007, 11:34 AM
gezzer wrote90%+ of all M1 carbines are mis-matched done by the .gov when upgrading them after WWII. Any you find that are all factory original I'll bet were taken home by a GI in a duffle bag.

Let's just say that this was an IBM version, what would it be worth?

Father Knows Best
January 2, 2007, 11:40 AM
Let's just say that this was an IBM version, what would it be worth?
Not enough info. It would be worth more than an Inland of comparable condition, but actual worth would be largely dependent on what configuration and condition it is in. Top dollar would only be paid for a very early one that has all matching parts correct to the time that the receiver was manufactured, i.e., it is in "as originally issued" configuration, and is in excellent condition without excessive wear, no import marks, etc. Value could be anywhere from $600 to $6000, but most probably at the low end of that range ($600-$1200) assuming very good condition and some post-war upgrades or other mismatched parts.

Keep in mind that I expect M1 carbine prices to decline over the next few months because of the CMP announcement. Collectors are not likely to be willing to pay top dollar for anything other than pristine early M1 carbines in as-issued configuration until they see what CMP will be putting on the market and at what price.

arthurcw
January 2, 2007, 01:25 PM
Quote:
but I am wiling to bet anyone a dime to a dollar that the limit per person is going to be low.

I hope it is; whatever they do, I hope they make it unrealistic for a dealer to come in and buy plenty, then resell them (seen it happen, makes me furious that they're taking advantage of it ). As long as I get one, though, I'm happy.

Bingo... I'm really worried about resellers on this one. I just want one. Mismatched and ugly is fine.

Anybody have a guesstimate on what a run of the mill service or field grade Inland might be from the CMP? I know that's like asking, "Is it going to rain on New Year’s 2007?" But ever since I got the email from CMP, I'm in a mind to speculate.

DMK
January 2, 2007, 01:50 PM
Anybody have a guesstimate on what a run of the mill service or field grade Inland might be from the CMP? I know that's like asking, "Is it going to rain on New Year’s 2007?" But ever since I got the email from CMP, I'm in a mind to speculate.It's impossible to say. However, I don't see any reason why they should sell for any more than 1903s or Garands in equal condition.

CMP is currently selling 1903s and 1903A3s for $500-575, but they are very limited in number. In the past they were priced closer to Garands at $400-450 (and the '03A3 I got "at the bottom of the barrel" last year was really nice, I'd be thrilled to get a carbine is that condition). Orest said they had a substantial number of Carbines, enough to last them one or two years. I'm sure he's well aware how quickly these should sell.

arthurcw
January 2, 2007, 01:59 PM
Orest said they had a substantial number of Carbines, enough to last them one or two years. I'm sure he's well aware how quickly these should sell.


I saw the "substantial number" part. I guess I missed the "one or two years" part.

I think I may wet myself. :what: :neener:

My Garand is in the mail. I waited too long to get that one and I'm not making the same mistake again.

Sistema1927
January 2, 2007, 02:00 PM
I am going to go out on a limb here on 1/2/2007 at noon MST and make a prediction.

I predict that CMP will sell run-of-the-mill "service grade" carbines for $450. "Rack grade" for $350, and stripped receivers for $150.

Anything "special" will be reserved for auction.

Father Knows Best
January 2, 2007, 02:40 PM
My prediction would be in line with Sistemas.

I don't understand what the concern is about resellers, though. If you want one, order one and you'll get it. What does it matter that someone else orders more with the intent of reselling a few? It gets them into the market quicker in a way that more people have access to them. If they overprice them, either they won't sell or they will, but you'll still be able to get one for whatever CMP's price is just by going to CMP.

Eightball
January 2, 2007, 02:41 PM
I heard that the exact number of carbines is close to 35,000. How would that be a "one or two years' supply", with all of us drooling already? :p

arthurcw
January 2, 2007, 02:58 PM
I don't understand what the concern is about resellers,...

FNB: As said before, I missed the part about "one or two years" worth of stock. Resellers swooping in and buying up rifles in quantity to resell them at inflated prices would be a very worrisome if the CMP was only going to have a few rifles.

A "Substantial number" is a rather relative term and I could see that being dwindled down to nada in a few months. But enough stock for at least a year; that would make it very hard for resellers to gouge all but the clueless.

...Now someone else can start another thread about the CMP, Resellers, and ethics of using (abusing) the CMP.

Blackfork
January 2, 2007, 05:50 PM
Up to a couple years ago the CMP offered carbines to clubs only for 500.00 bucks a rifle. Few takers.

Gator
January 2, 2007, 08:31 PM
Few takers

But there were enough takers since they sold out!

Blackfork
January 2, 2007, 09:02 PM
They dropped the price to 350.00 and let individuals buy them through the clubs. They went like free hotcakes on a cold morning.

If you want to learn something interesting, learn about the M1 carbine. It's fascinating! Winchester, IBM, Saginaw Gear, Inland, Rockola, Irwin Pederson, and others were licensed to make them and all made a few or a lot. Inland made the most, so they are regarded as the most common and least valuable.

The last ones the CMP sold had been re-arsenaled in 1953 and stored since then. They had many early features but no flip sights. All of them had early barrel bands though, some had high wood stocks, lots of cartouches, et, et. Much fun. Great condition when you cleaned them up. I got several. Had some beautiful high wood stocks on two, flat bolts on most. I swapped parts to make them as consistent as possible.

I think these carbines are going to be priced 550-600.00. I think they will be a deal.

Father Knows Best
January 2, 2007, 10:26 PM
Speaking of upgrades, does anybody have a list of all of the post-war upgrades?
Well, I'm home, and I have in front of me my treasured copy of The M1 Carbine Owner's Guide, by Scott Duff. It's a great book that I highly recommend to anyone interested in the M1 carbine. As for modifications or "upgrades" he notes that many of them were purely dimensional and are not obvious upon casual inspection. There are, however, 12 major "production changes" that he lists. They are:
1. Rear sight changed from two-position flip to windage and elevation adjustable Garand-type peep
2. Front sight changed from forged and milled to stamped and brazed
3. Operating slide revised in shape
4. Bolt changed from flat to round
5. Trigger housing changed from forged and milled to stamped and brazed
6. Hammers changed from "dogleg" to "straight"
7. Magazine catch changed to improve retention (and later to hold 30 round mags)
8. Safety changed from push button to rotating lever
9. Stock changed from "high wood" to "low wood"
10. Stock oiler slot changed from I shape to oval
11. Handguard changed from 2 rivets to 4
12. Front band changed from narrow to wide, and to wide with bayonet lug

Eightball
January 3, 2007, 01:45 AM
...Now someone else can start another thread about the CMP, Resellers, and ethics of using (abusing) the CMP.No need--it's illegal. Check your CMP documentation. Ah, nothing like a FEDERAL offense, because you feel like ripping off clueless consumers (or people who weren't able to buy one of the rifle you're selling, because you bought them all:fire: ).

DMK
January 3, 2007, 07:59 AM
Thanks for the list Father Knows Best! :)

I need to get a copy of that book.

lionking
January 3, 2007, 12:33 PM
I guess this means Im going to have to put together a "carbine in action" thread?:p

fact is,when I was gathering photos for the "M1Garand in action" thread most of the WW2 photos I found included carbines being used.Actually a couple photos accidently made it to the Garand thread.

thanks FKB,my Duff book is packed away after I cleaned up the house for selling,I remember reading that manufactures sometimes used each others components to finish for delivery.

buzz_knox
January 3, 2007, 02:01 PM
How does one become eligible for the CMP sales program?

Manedwolf
January 3, 2007, 02:16 PM
There's just something cool about the ones made by the Rock-Ola jukebox company.

After all, it's a WWII carbine with "ROCK-OLA" stamped on the reciever. :D

And I had no idea IBM made them, too. :scrutiny:
Hey, at least it wouldn't crash...

alamo
January 3, 2007, 05:57 PM
How does one become eligible for the CMP sales program?


http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/eligibility_requirements.htm

mustanger98
January 3, 2007, 06:49 PM
Getting eligible was so easy I could do it... and I did.:D

IBM made them, too.:scrutiny:
Hey, at least it wouldn't crash...

That's the truth... speaks well of the Carbine and ill of the computer.:cool: :uhoh: :cool:

hueytaxi
January 4, 2007, 10:08 PM
I carried several M-1 and M-2's in another country at another time. Loved them. Bought a cheap Universal when I got out of service. Sold long ago. Found you could not leave a magazine loaded or it would lose strength and misfeed. My only negative experience with the carbines.

Bwana John
January 4, 2007, 10:38 PM
Probably the Paratroop ones or the Full Auto version.

Actually I have found that the select fire M-1s can be worn out. Ive had bolts and op rods just disesemble themselfs while on the line, from worn out oprod raceways.


(Yea I know, but there are MANY M-1 marked receivers that were converted back and forth from semi to select fire, and back to semi)

Eightball
January 5, 2007, 01:43 AM
I guess this means Im going to have to put together a "carbine in action" thread?Would you, please? :D

If you enjoyed reading about "Which are the "good" M1 Carbines?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!