[Sprout]

My brother is looking for an accurate .22 semi-auto pistol. He is an experienced shooter, but has never owned a handgun.

Unfortunately, most ranges seem to have few .22 choices other than the Mark II or 617, so it's kind of hard to try a bunch out. He likes the feel of my CZ Kadet, but he wants a gun that is accurate enough for competition if he decides to go that route. He says he wants to know that misses are his fault, not the gun's, and I can agree.

The Ruger is the obvious choice, but feels strange to us both, though it is still a possibility. The Buckmark is also in the running. I’ve heard enough things about the S&W 22 to take it off the list, and he’s not interested in a revolver. I was going to suggest the M41--because of the near unanimous chorus of enthusiasts--but the SIG/Hammerli Trailside seems to be pretty accurate too, at half the price. Is the M41 worth the extra price? So far the list is pretty much:

1. S&W 41
2. SIG/Hammerli Trailside
3. CZ 75 w/Kadet
4. Ruger Mark II
5. Browning Buckmark

We’re going to hit the local ranges and see what’s available, but wanted to see if there was anything that’s Kali approved that we’ve overlooked. Any opinions on these guns, or any others are welcome.

Thanks for the help everybody.

[arinvolvo]

Ruger...I own a 22/45 and love it...never skips a beat, it is cheap, and requires almost zero maintenance.

[JohnMc]

I love the Mk II. You can buy a cheap one for about $250 and then really customize it, if need be. Or buy the competition target model in stainless for around $400.

http://www.volquartsen.com/default.asp?cat=Accessories+Ruger+MKII+and+22%2E45
or
http://www.ontargetguns.com/mark.html

John Mc

[P95Carry]

MKII would certainly do pretty well .... bull barrel.

One not mentioned tho which I used to use in old days of 22 target precision was Walther GSP ......... lovely pistol .. took a 5 rnd mag.

I rather suspect nowadays tho this would be a very pricey piece.

[Zer000]

I just picked up a Ruger 22/45, and I love it. I find the grip angle and controls far more agreeable on the 22/45 than on the MKII, YMMV.

[Sprout]

Lots of Ruger fans here :D Thanks for the help.

We'll check out the 22/45 and re-examine the Mark II. Any idea what the inherent accuracy of these guns are? How much inherently less accurate is the CZ? How much more accurate would the Smith or Sig be?

Thanks

[P95Carry]

Sprout ... IMHO ..... much will depend on the shooter's skills .. and that in turn relevant to his liking or not of the gun ..... fit, balance etc.

I'd reckon that with OK ammo and in good hands, even the std MKII could ''outshoot'' a SIG for example, in novice hands.

Forgot to mention previously ... another quite popular .22 for target work when I used to do this was the ''Hi-Standard''.

[Cawdor]

Take a look at the Beretta 87 Target (http://www.beretta.com/frame_tabellaprodotti_2002.asp?sgmt=23&Model=87%20Target).

[Minute_Of_Torso]

Gotta put in a good word for the Rugers.

Have the MK512 and a 22/45 (The "Great Eight" bull barrel).

I love them both. Except for the proverbial MK II disassembly and reassembly problems (still have trouble after all these years), the maintenance is extremely easy. My 22/45 is SUPER accurate.

My Ruger 22's are never trade, never sell, keep 'em always guns.

[BlkHawk73]

I'll suggest the Ruger also. If the competiton route does come around, the Rugers are the easiest to upgrade.


I just left another forum and noticed a good deal there. take a look...
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=160248#post160248

[LFW]

I keep my eye on the bullseye scene, but these days only do it informally for fun. You can pick up a used M41 for $500 to $600 dollars. They don't seem to wear out. The Ruger is a popular first .22 with bullseye folk. Trouble is, by the time you get through fixing it so it shoots like you need it to for bullseye, you've probably got as much into it as a used M41. I love Buckmarks, but for some reason they aren't very popular for serious target work. As for the Trailside, it kind of depends on what forum you are listening reading as to whether or not it's bullseye worthy or not. Now that they offer it with some weights for the front end, I think it would probably be a good choice--but they cost almost as much as a M41.--Leigh

[photo_guy]

I started with a Ruger MkII Gov'mt target model. It is really a very good value. I thought it was the greatest thing and the most fun to shoot.
Then I added a Volquartsen target trigger to it. Oh, boy what an improvement! It was sweet. I thought this was the greatest thing...
Then I bought a used M41. Yet another jump. Very easy to shoot well and easy to field strip. This is my current favorite. The Riger doesn't get out of the safe much anymore.

I think the Ruger was a great starting gun and, once you get good enough it is worth getting a target trigger. The cosy of a Ruger plus trigger will be about $350 or so and you will have a fine gun to learn on.
Or you can jump in with a M41 which you can probably find for $500 or so if you look.

[rick_reno]

I'm unclear what the application is - the Ruger is a good entry level 22 IF you replace the trigger and sear. Gil Hebard has an upgrade package for the MkII and 22/45 that includes a Volquartsen trigger, target sear, speed hammer and spring kit for $72. If you bought them piece by piece it's about $86. He can be reached at 309-289-2700 - mention the 10% off on orders over $25 and save some more money.
Another gun that you might want to look for is an older High Standard. Try and find one made in Hamden or Hartford. Do not buy one of the new Texas guns unless you need a sinker for fishing (they're junk). The Victor is an excellent target pistol, around $600 used for a good one. The important thing to check on them is slide cracks, the slide can crack from shooting high velocity ammo - inspect it carefully before buying.
Another one is the Baikal IZH-35. It's a Russian target pistol, you can read all about them here http://izh.petebrunelli.com/

You might want to find the local bullseye league and start hanging around. Most people will let you shoot their guns, and you'll see a wide variety of 22 target pistols there.

[TheMariner]

As far as competition capable, what kind are you talking about and at what ranges?

[Rembrandt]

Another vote for the Smith & Wesson 41.....nothing to really improve on with this gun, unlike Rugers and Buckmarks. Quick change barrel feature is really nice for cleaning. I've got both 5.5" and 7 3/8" w/ comp.....for target shooting, it's the best features for the money.

[Shmackey]

The Sig is crazy accurate, but it can be... finicky. I don't know if I'd suggest it for a first.

If you don't like the feel of the Ruger, you can't go wrong with the Buckmark.

[Jeff OTMG]

The mod 41 is a nice gun, but expensive and no more accurate than a Trailside. In fact there aren't many guns out there more accurate than a Trailside. I agree that you really need to consider the Baikal IZH-35, one of the most underrated .22's out there. They are so good that Walther uses the frame a trigger group on their entry level KSP2000.

[Ala Dan]

Colt's Match Target Woodsman

but, they are not C-H-E-A-P!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life member

[KarlG]

I own (and love) a Browning Buckmark. the gun is more accurate than I am (take that with two grains of salt). I liked the controls (magazine release and safety) as they were similar to the other gus I have. It has a wonderful trigger right out of the box.

I have tried two Beretta 87T's and have found the trigger to be less than desirable. This is unfortunate as the gun feels very nice otherwise.

[rick_reno]

Something that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the importance of finding the "right" .22 ammo. Some of the ammo on the market won't reliably work some of the guns mentioned, and you will find amazing differences in accuracy from the various guns and ammo combinations. Once your brother finds a pistol he likes, I'd suggest he buy a couple of boxes of various ammo - I've listed some online sources below - and try them out and see what works best. Most of the target pistols like SV (standard velocity) ammo and in our testing we've found it to be more accurate than the high velocity stuff.

http://www.championshooters.com/ammo.htm Eley, RWS, Lapua, SK, Wolf, CCI, etc.

http://www.22ammo.com/22ammo.html Aguila, Remington, Winchester, Lapua, Wolf, etc.

[MacPelto]

I own a buckmark...great plinker, not much I'd trade it for. That said, most of the pistol competitors at my club recommend the IZH35, as rick_reno said, for an entry level target gun. It's not in the same class as a hammerli, but it's a good start.

[Chris Rhines]

Ha-hah! Another .22 enthusiast! I've been shooting NRA and ISU Bullseye for a couple of years now, with a variety of different pistols (Rugers, Smith M41s, Buckmarks, IZH-35s, a couple of pricey Euro-guns...) It's a ton of fun and great practice.

Real quick, let me summarize what your brother wants:
- A .22LR self-loader,
- Accurate enough for competition Bullseye,
- Comfy in the hand (interchangable grips, perhaps?)
- Something that has good value for the price,
- California-legal.

Am I on the right track? If so, let me ask a couple of other questions:
- How important is the reliability of the gun? Spare parts/magazines?
- Would your bro want to be able to customize the gun to his own tastes (grips/sights/trigger/that kind of stuff?)
- How about scope mounting? Would your brother want to scope the gun at some point?

Based on all that, I can probably make a pretty good recommendation.

Thanks,
Chris

[10-Ring]

I normally recommend one of the Rugers, but right now, I've been contemplating a S&W 617. Pricey, but seemingly well worth it ;)

[Sprout]

Thanks everybody! I’ll email him this URL so he can get an idea of what the experts think. You’ve all been a lot of help.

rick_reno & MacPelto: Yeah, the IZH35 looks very cool. Unfortunately, I don’t think it is on the California approved list. <sigh>

Chris: I think both the reliability and ability to scope would both be important. However, neither of us know much about competitive shooting—yet—so we don’t really know how important it is to be able to swap triggers and that kind of stuff. Your expertise would be appreciated.

10-Ring: Yeah, I've been thinking about a 617 myself. Unfortunately, my brother is more of an auto kind of guy.

Thanks

[Chris Rhines]

Sprout -

Based on your (brother's) requirements, I'd suggest either the Ruger MkII or the Sig Trailside.

The Ruger MkII with adjustable sights is both accurate and very reliable. Right out of the box, it will be a good entry-level bullseye gun. With a few modifications (mostly related to the trigger action) it will be competitive right up to National-level. The MkII is very popular and well-understood, spare parts are all over the place, and the pistol is easy to put a scope on (my personal MkII should be wearing an UltraDot scope inside of a week - I'll let you know how it shoots...)

The Trailside is still a pretty new gun, and may have a few teething problems, but the out-of-box trigger and accuracy are off the hook. Spares for the Trailside are not as common as for the MkII, but they're not hard to find. Same with custom parts - there are a few out there, but not many. Not that the Trailside needs very many.

Either one of these guns will work very well.

I would avoid the others - the Kadet is a great gun, but probably not accurate enough for competition work. The Smith 41, well, I had one. It was okay, but not worth the $600-some-odd I paid for it. After selling it, I've started to notice some parts-breakage issues with high-volume Model 41s (mainly the safety and slide stop.) Buckmarks, I don't like. All the ones that I've seen would either break parts or slowly shoot themselves apart after a few thousand rounds.

Ruger MkII or Trailside. Let us know how your brother likes it (whatever he ends up buying.)

- Chris

[Handy]

Well, if we're talking about Beretta 87s and S&W 41s, how about the Benelli 95 or Baikal IZH35? At $400 to $700, these are true competition .22s with the sculptured grip, adjustable trigger and full length sights, like you see in Olympic rapid fire.

Not saying you need a Benelli or IZH, I think the $200 Rugers and Buckmarks can do the job. Just another neat option. I think EAA distributes them.

It's funny the California is blocking even Olympic target pistols. You might want to check with them.



No mention of the much heralded Colt Cadet of several years ago? Shocking.

[rick_reno]

If you go with the Ruger, swapping trigger/sear/hammer are things you should be able to do yourself. Those are the three parts you should replace. The Rugers can be a bit intiminating to take apart/reassemble - but just go slow and you'll be fine. If you get stuck - post something here, there are lot of folks that have done it.
Most people "scope" their guns with one of the red dot scopes. The Ultradot scopes http://www.ultradotusa.com/ are popular, I've used Ultradot and Adco. I perfer Adco, the dot is easier for me to see. People seem to go to dot scopes when their abiity to clearly see iron sights goes away, your need to use one these might depend on your age. The Ruger can be scoped, it's not a problem.
I believe it's useful to learn to shoot a pistol with iron sights. Pistol shooting is simply sight allignment and trigger control. Once you master those you'll be shooting good - it's sometimes easier for a beginner to learn with iron sights. The Army Markmanship Training Guide has a lot of good info on pistol shooting, I'd recommend reading it. You can find it - and a LOT more info here on pistol shooting http://www.bullseyepistol.com/

I'd have to second Chris on the M41's. The recent examples I've seen were problematic and needed some tinkering to get them working right. I know people who have sent them back to S&W with a "You fix it or keep it" letters.

Another pistol combination that hasn't been mentioned is a 1911 pistol with a 22 conversion. There's really only one conversion to consider, Marvel. Go here http://www.marvelprecision.com/ and look at their targets - these things really work as good as they say they do.

[rick_reno]

Handy posted "It's funny the California is blocking even Olympic target pistols. You might want to check with them."

While Kalif. cetainly has some restrictive gun legislation, they aren't blocking Olympic target pistols, AB2793 (chaptered 9/26/02) allows a long list of target pistols including Benelli, Hammerli, Pardini, Morini, etc. You can read the whole thing here

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=3150117288+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

The list of target pistols is somewhere near the end of the bill.

[Pat S]

I think as many here that the MKII is a good entry level gun. My main issue with it is the trigger. I had the Volquartzen(sp?) kit installed in mine and although it was a vast improvement over stock it still has too much creep in it which is very distracting in slow fire. The sear gets cruded up quickly also, leading to a gritty trigger with creep. I've shot a M41 and a High Standard and both had outstanding triggers with a clean, crisp break. You may also want to look into a good used older High Standard target model or a used SW 41 as I think I will do before bullseye season starts up again. I choose not to buy new SW products at this time. Until such time as they officially renounce the HUD agreement signed by the previous owners and publicly state that they will never honor it or anything like it.


Stay Safe, Pat S

[Sactown]

If you're looking for a Kali approved pistol, the IZH and the Sig Trailside are not on the list. I haver two rugers, a 5.5" bull and govt comp target model. You can guess what I recommend.

[MoNsTeR]

I have a MkII Competition and a Trailside Competition.
Oddly enough, I don't compete :D
Anyway I much prefer the Trailside. Better trigger, better sights, better balance, and the grips are to die for. But I got mine for a steal ($450), on top of being impossible to find this model sells for $700 new.

The Rugers are certainly accurate enough, but the triggers aren't up to snuff, and the sights are so-so. Seems like the least-hassle route would be the M41.

[standingbear]

i have found my ruger slabside competition model to be more than accurate.the 41s are nice but too expensive for my budget where every dollar counts.there is a ruger takedown kit that can be purchased to make assembly and dissassembly quick and easy.

[Sprout]

Thanks again for the help everybody! Looks like the Sig isn't safe enough for the children. I guess match-grade .22s are the new gang weapon of choice, or something :rolleyes: So it looks like it's down ot the Ruger and the Smith. We'll check them out when we've got time--I'm in Bar-Bri hell right now--and I'll let y'all know which he picks.

Thanks again. You guys are an invaluable resourse, and I really appreciate it. Thanks.

[munk]

Hey! I've got a question for you .22 gurus: I"m getting a Buckmark Silohette with the 14" heavy barrel and weaver rail.

It's costing me 250.00 and it is as new. From a dear friend, of course, otherwise it would have to be hot or stolen from a widow.


What say you?

Why don't we see more Buckmarks out there? I'm going prarrie dog hunting with mine.

munk