9mm Rifle Options


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Odd Job
January 3, 2007, 09:37 AM
Gents, I am stuck in the UK and I want to do some ballistics tests on 9mm ammo. I am not allowed to have a pistol or a revolver of traditional length and I can't have a semi-auto carbine. I would have thought that a lever action will be impossible to get with a rimless case, but am I wrong on that? What about a pump action rifle?

Is there anything out there or will I be forced to get a single shot Thompson Contender (if it meets the minimal length requirements)? What about a really long 9mm revolver: are those available?
Sucks to be in the UK, as a guy who wants to do these things.

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Hutch
January 3, 2007, 10:35 AM
I'm not familiar with any production revolver w/ barrel length greater than 4" in 9mm, and even those are scarce. My guess is that the Contender barrel would be most available. Over here, you wouldn't even need a licensed dealer to receive it. What is the minimum legal length? Would you be willing to have someone customize a long barrelled revolver w/ a 9mm cylinder? I can't think of ANY non-SLR carbine in 9mm. Hmmmm.... wait a tick... There was a Spanish bolt-rifle imported into this country, called the Destroyer, that was chambered in 9mm Largo. Maybe some judicious work on that could at least produce a test-bed for you. Hope this helps. Let us know how this progresses.

mp510
January 3, 2007, 11:59 AM
I can't think of ANY non-SLR carbine in 9mm. Hmmmm.... wait a tick... There was a Spanish bolt-rifle imported into this country, called the Destroyer, that was chambered in 9mm Largo. Maybe some judicious work on that could at least produce a test-bed for you. Hope this helps. Let us know how this progresses.
There was a very limited number of destroyer carbines made in 9x19mm. I have seen one, years ago. The seller wanted significantly more for it than the Largo's cost.

I also recall reading that a company was comeing up with what can be dubbed a semi-semi automatic. It was based on an HK 94/ MP-5 roller lock type deisgn, where the bolt retracted and locked back after each shot and was released by the user depressing a button. Reports from the UK were that with practice it could be fired almost as rapidly as a semi-auto.

Jim Watson
January 3, 2007, 12:06 PM
The only source I know of for such stuff is
http://westlakeengineering.com/4556.html

For what you are talking about, I would visualize a 9mm "long pistol" like the .22 Buckmark shown, converted from semi-automatic to manual operation. It won't be cheap. How about a ticket to Texas?

A friend of mine has a .45 ACP '98 Mauser the like of which in 9mm would serve. But that was an expensive proposition and I see little application for it other than ammunition testing. For shooting, I should prefer a .22.

Odd Job
January 3, 2007, 02:22 PM
Thanks gents, some good suggestions so far. I just have to work out if it is worth the expense because these look like pricey options. I don't know what the minimal length is offhand, but I know it is really long. One guy at the club has a .357 magnum with a very long barrel and a permanent wire 'buttstock' on it. Something like that would do me fine, in 9mm with moonclips.
I'll look up that minimal length and post it here.

K-Romulus
January 3, 2007, 02:36 PM
I have seen posts by one UK THR guy who said he had a single-shot AR-15 type rifle that (he said) was pretty "common" over in your country. It had to be manually operated after each shot (basically an AR-15 without the gas operating system). He called it a "straight pull" rifle.

You might be able to build that into a 9mm carbine if the basic lower receiver parts are like a "regular" AR-15. Pretty simple to do.

Jim Watson
January 3, 2007, 02:44 PM
The FIRST problem will be finding a 9mm revolver to lengthen. There are not many to choose from.

In the US, S&W made the 547 with patent extractor so as to not need clips, and Ruger produced some Speed Sixes in 9mm with clips. They both built some small frame 5-shot 9mm revolvers but one of those would look strange (stranger than usual) with long barrel and stock. Ruger makes a .357-9mm Blackhawk Convertible that would be simple to work with.

The FN Barracuda and Manurhin MR73 were somewhat available in 9mm.

For ammunition testing, I think you would be just as well off with a Contender Carbine, if you could arrange for a 9mm barrel. It would avoid confusion due to bullet travel through the cylinder and cylinder-to-barrel gap of a revolver anyhow.

zinj
January 3, 2007, 03:16 PM
Ruger produces a Blackhawk Convertable Single Action with a 6.5in barrel that has both 9mm Parabellum and .357 Magnum cylinders. Is that an option?

http://ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=318&return=Y

Odd Job
January 3, 2007, 04:00 PM
Damn, I think 6.5" is too short.

The barrel has to be 30cm minimum and the overall length has to be 60cm minimum.
That's one hell of a long handgun!

Jim Watson
January 3, 2007, 04:36 PM
I really doubt you are going to be able to buy something that suits ex works.

In the US, a pistol with a shoulder stock is itself heavily regulated to the point of being illegal to the average shooter. There are some oddities with 16 inch barrels to constitute a carbine with buttstock affixed, but they are not common and not available in 9mm that I know of.

I fear you are in for expensive custom alterations.

Take a holiday here and somebody will probably loan you a loading press, a pistol to shoot the products with, and a chronograph to tell you where you have gotten.

Odd Job
January 3, 2007, 11:40 PM
@ Jim Watson

Some people are doing that for me already, with shots in bare gelatin or water.
But I have a bag of bones here that I want to shoot, and I want to X-ray them before and after they are shot so that I can plot fracture patterns.
Oh well, it looks like I must either spend a lot of money on that, or change my plans.
I would hate to have to change to .357 but if the cost of a 9mm firearm is prohibitive then tests with .357 would be better than nothing.

Jim Watson
January 4, 2007, 12:59 AM
Do you have handloading capability?

Any of a number of 9mm or .35 calibre rifles could be loaded with pistol bullets at pistol velocities for ballistic testing against your bag of bones. (Bag of bones? Not your mother-in-law, I hope.)

Do you have gunsmithing capability or resources?

There are chamber adapters to allow the firing of pistol cartridges in rifles of the same or nearly the same calibre. Unfortunately I cannot find one larger than .30. A machinist could turn one out in short order, though, at much lower cost than a "long pistol." You would still have to find the appropriate rifle.

pedaldude
January 4, 2007, 04:17 AM
what about an insert barrel, are those legal in the UK? just pull out the old 12 gauge, pop one in. Also called sub caliber adapters.

I imagine you can have one custom chambered in 9mm and they aren't that expensive here.

only problem I see is having to eject the spent brass with a rod, unless you want to use a snipped up moon clip.

good luck!

Odd Job
January 4, 2007, 07:10 AM
@ Jim Watson

I don't handload, but there are guys at the club who do, so if I did get hold of a straight pull carbine in 9mm I could get pistol velocities from that.

@ pedaldude

Aren't those inserts very short? I was under the impression that they are only a couple of inches long. that's going to give me accuracy problems. Also, if it is rifled, I wonder if the UK authorities will class it as a firearm.

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