[Carnitas]

Its been my understanding that the reason DA/SA guns like the Beretta 96 and Sig variants are so common as departmet issue weapons is because the double action pull is percieved as a very safe and AD preventative mode of carry but the SA action model allows for precise shooting. True?

That being glass-half-full case, wouldent the glass-half-empty case go somthing like......

We want our officers to have long heavy DA pulls on their guns because their gun handling is so poor that we'll avoid a lot of AD's, further more, if our officers are to have any hope of hitting something when they need to they'll have to have a light crisp SA pull.


I just seems that a crafty attorney could used to underlying truths about DA/SA to build a case against a dept.

For instance officer misses and hits someone down the block.
Attorney says that's because of the long heavy trigger pull. Asks Chief LEO if thats because he didnt trust his officer with a SA gun or if he didnt train him enough to master that long heavy pull.

For instance officer gets periphal hit and is killed by return fire. Widow sues and attorney asks same basic question.

For instance officer shoots BG, BG goes down wounded, officer touches "hair" SA trigger and caps BG again, dead this time. Attorney for deceased family wants to know who you issued gun with dangerous SA pull when you didnt trust officer enough to issue a weapon with that pull for the first shot. You could even argue that the DA pull encouraged and mandated strong trigger finger motions that would be in appropraite for a SA pull.

It just seems like most any accidential hit or accidental miss could be blamed, in part on the trigger system. Once the trigger system is called into question the motivations behind the addoption of the system also comes into play.

I just have never been able to understand the logic behind this fire control system. The catch 22's of less safe/more safe/more shootable/not shootable enough seem to be tailor made for a plaintiffs attourney.

[Poohgyrr]

Logic ?? These decisions seem to be made by people who have been sitting behind a nice safe desk away from the street for too long. One thing they do notice however, is where the flack comes from; then it's just a matter of which battle they're willing to fight. I can understand this part.

The crafty attorneys have already used this "single action is bad" nonsense, and will continue looking for ways to win. But being forewarned is forearmed. So learn & follow the rules; so you will win in court as well as on the street. Then celebrate with homemade ice cream. ;)

[.45Ruger]

I think it was Chuck Taylor who said that DA guns were the perfect solution in search of a problem, but he may have been talking DAO I'm not sure.

[9x19]

To me, it seems a natural move from DA revolvers (should they have been carrying SAs? :D) to DA pistols for those officers who aren't "into" guns.

[themic]

I'm not a LEO, but I personally like a DA/SA gun. And I shoot the double action just as well as the single, but my follow up shots are much quicker with this config.

[RON in PA]

The DA/SA system is popular with the "powers-that-be" because in the real world most police or MPs are not well trained in pistol craft and there are too many examples of negligent discharges in the rank and file and too many examples of cops chasing people with their fingers on the trigger. Also it's easy to be an armchair quarterback and pontificate, but few of us have experienced the stress of "seeing the elephant". Before the adoption of the semi-auto many police depts. went to a DA only revolver and many today use a DA only auto.

[Handy]

The logic is that the "safety" is a revolver like trigger, and once the gun is in the fight rapid, accurate follow up shots are provided by the SA trigger.

It need have nothing to do with lawyers. It's a sound doctrine that combines the safe simplicity of DA revolvers with the advantages of the auto. Whatever you've been told about "crunchentickers" does not bear up to the real life use of DA/SA guns in competent hands. You're thinking is what saddles some police forces with DAO Smiths and Berettas.

DA triggers also provide a house clearing tool that resists stress NDs without forcing the policeman to move in a dangerous environment with the safety on.

Cocked and locked is a workable doctrine, but realistically, there aren't that many C&L designs available for police agencies to choose from.


You don't like em? Fine. But DA/SA is no empediment to good shooting and provides a safe yet available first shot. And there are certainly quite a few people that will out shoot the best of us with one.

[braindead0]

For the average joe shooter, it's a personal thing I think.. I like DA/SA because it keeps me on my toes re: DA shooting as I enjoy shooting wheelguns in IDPA too..

Because I tend to switch from wheelgun to auto (and sometimes both) when shooting IDPA events, it's easier to not have to switch gears... they both function pretty much the same (with the exception of the SA trigger after the first shot).

Beats drawing and forgetting to remove safety ;-).. or fumbling with my wheelgun trying to find the safety.

[GSB]

The problem is that there appears to be a higher level of accidental discharges among LEOs with Glock-type actions, so either you put a safety on it (one more thing for the underqualified to screw up) or put a heavy trigger on it and bank on the guy not having to actually make a tough shot.

That's not me slamming the Glock action, by the way. It's just a reflection that it isn't as forgiving of careless handling than other action types (please let me stress the "careless" part so I don't get flamed by Glockophiles).

[MoNsTeR]

Logic? In government? Surely you jest.

[9mmepiphany]

i grew up with the 1911 and feel prefectly safe with the condition one carry. when i started in LE, we carried wheel guns and i learned to master the DA trigger pull (i cheated, mine were tuned). my first DA/SA was the smith m-39, who's trigger was mushy at best and almost put me off DA/SA forever.

the currently available DA/SA pistols in LE (sig, beretta, walther) have excellent DA triggers. the transition from a wheelgun to a DA/SA pistol is much easier than learning a SA auto (i think the 1911 is a terrible general issue weapon in LE) some folks have carried this further to the DAO pistol...familiar trigger, higher capacity and faster reloads.

the big advantage of the DA/SA trigger in LE is the relative safer conditions when holding a suspect at gunpoint...we spend alot more time pointing then shooting on a day to day basis...and the ability to ease off should compliance resault from the display of your gun.

i can get off an accurate first shot with my DA/SA beretta as fast as a SA auto...but that is not alway the goal in LE incidents

by the way: it was cooper who said the DA/SA was a solution looking for a problem

[Erik]

The evolution from DA/SA to DAO to "light DAO" trigger pulls has a lot to do with the fact that many administrators acknowledge that despite their training, and at times because of it, LEOs frequently violate rule number three. So they want relatively long, light pulls a la what Glock and HK offers.

[Carnitas]

Lots of good discussion but no one has addressed the central idea about the contradictions of the DA/SA system.

If DA is safer and sufficiently accurate for our officers to use in public firing for their lives or the lives of others why do you need a SA follow up.

If you are trained well enough to master two distinctly different trigger pulls wouldent you be even more effective if you had spent twice as much time mastering 1? Either accuracy with a DAO or safety with a SAO.

If an officer needs a DA pull to safely hold a suspect at gun point, does that mean his weapon will be unsafe when he's holding a suspect at gun point after first firing a shot at him?

I'm just having a hard time understanding not being good enough to get it done with simple DAO or SAO but good enough to get it done with somthing that switches between to two.

[BevrFevr]

LE firearms are not generally selected for any of the previous reasons.

I think it has far more to do with cost, marketing, trade in deals, training budgets and doctirne, history, the ability to write rfp's, etc.

I would suggest that except for special units, the major factor in choosing a gun for a department is Bureucratic BS! My money says that those that mostly make these decisions don't really know what DA/SA means.

Maybe I'm wrong. I thought I was wrong once before but I was mistaken.

-bevr

[rebbryan]

the dept i'm wanting to work for in a couple years uses DAO

[Handy]

Carnitas,

I did address that. But to take it further, a DA trigger is essentially the most trouble free way of IMMEDIATELY firing at a close range threat.

Example:
BG at 5 yards draws and fires. Cop yanks gun out of holster and point shoots in return. At this range and level of stress, any trigger is going to produce similar accuracy results.

Example 2:
Cop gets out of car at suspect's house. BG comes out of front door thirty yards away and fires at cop. Correct response? Cop draws and seeks cover. Once in a better position, cop gets of a carefully staged DA shot or cocks the hammer and takes advantage of a decent SA trigger for multiple aimed shots.

Example 3, the thinking behind the wondernine and the auto transition in the first place:
Beat cop is surrounded by gang members intent on death. Uses the rapid fire capability to subdue as many as possible. DA first shot goes into the most immediate threat and fans out from there.

Example 4:
House clearing. Cop needs a gun that will fire if a threat pops out. So a safetied SA is out. DA in this case provides a greater margin against fratricide than SA.


The point being, it is hard to conceive of a realistic situation that the DA/SA gun isn't going to be effective. In example 4 we see that having a gun left on safe isn't so good, and in example two we see how a DAO might not be the best, though DAO works better in those examples than SA.

Some would argue; that's why Glocks are great. But the standard Glock trigger is the same liability as the SA in example 4. A NY1 triggered Glock is a better solution, falling somewhere between DAO and DA/SA due to the stage-able trigger.

[9mmepiphany]

handy has it pretty much right, LEO are not are gun savy as most folks on this board and they don't need to be. most of the job has to do with people skills and the ability to apply common sense.

most gun training is control and safety, but they add the margin of the DA first shot to account for nerves. if the engagement should progress beyond that point, hopefully training will takeover and make follow up shots count, they maximise that with the SA trigger pulls. it is really more about teaching when not to shoot then the ability to shoot (anyone can learn that)...sorta like the difference between an attack dog and a guarddog

when holding a perp at gunpoint...if you should have to fire and you still need to cover your subject, you're supposed to decock your weapon.

i've never precocked my DA/SA pistol, just like i never went SA with my duty python...but then i really try not to shoot much beyond 50 yards either