[Brass Fetcher]

I have just finished testing the CZ-52 in ballistic gelatin, using three weights of the Hornady XTP JHP.

Firearm : CZ-52 with 4.6" barrel length

Ammunition : Three handloaded Hornady XTP bullets of various weights, loaded to tabulated maximum pressure

Block calibration : 590 ft/sec and 8.7cm penetration

Shot 1 - Hornady 85gr XTP, resized to 0.309" diameter. Impacted at unknown velocity (chronograph read 3313 ft/sec). Penetrated to 11.5" and was recovered at 0.510" average diameter. Track outlined in blue.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=50501&stc=1&d=1167952208

Shot 2 - Hornady 90gr XTP. Impacted at 1512 ft/sec and penetrated to 12.3". Bullet was recovered at 0.498" average diameter. Track outlined in magenta.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=50502&stc=1&d=1167952208

Shot 3 - Hornady 100gr XTP. Impacted at 1551 ft/sec and penetrated to 13.9". Bullet was recovered at 0.501" average diameter. Track outlined in purple.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=50503&stc=1&d=1167952208

The 85gr and 100gr Hornady XTPs were actually a little bit too large in diameter for this usage (0.312") - IE, most bullets I've seen for the 7.62x25mm were 0.308" in diameter. So, those bullets were trimmed down using the Lee lead bullet sizing die, in 0.308" diameter.

[mashaffer]

Thanks for running these tests. Very interesting results. I am no expert but that loks like pretty good performance to me.

mike

[grimjaw]

Thanks very much, JE223. So if looks like if someone designed a decent hollowpoint for this caliber, it could be an effective load on unarmored targets. Expansion through clothing or barriers and gel would be good tests.

I wish I had ten acres of my own . . . :(

jm

[RyanM]

Not too shabby. The 100 gr XTP may be a real winner. Any plans for tests with 4 layer denim, or FBI heavy clothing?

[DMK]

All rounds penetrated at least 12", check
All rounds expanded, check
All rounds made a good sized wound channel, check


Assuming they shoot reliably and accurately, they all look like a decent SD round to me.

Thanks for the test JE223!

[Geronimo45]

Nice work!

[denfoote]

Now all we have to do is convince Hornady to make them!! ;)

Looks good as a SD round!! :D

[Brass Fetcher]

Thank you everybody for the kind words. I would like to do a 4-layer denim test - but we're about 'at that time again' : the gelatin powder has run out. The last block that I have is setting up right now and I have probably no more than a handful of powder left. I need more than a few handfuls to make a block. :) So I will let ya'll know if anything is in the works for future gelatin tests. I do see a test coming up involving .22lr and .32ACP, but that is it, as far as I can tell for the foreseeable future.

Last time around, Odd Job helped me out and I was able to get the powder that was used in these tests and in the 10 previous blocks. If you liked any of those tests .. please let him know. Oh, while I'm at it, send JohnKSa thanks for lending me the CZ-52 used in the last two tests!

FWIW, the performance of these rounds looked a lot to me like what I got from the .357 Magnum. I wish that I had a photo of that track available, but alas, it is not to be. Basically, a wild amount of cracking in the initial inches of penetration and then an abrupt halt, with lots of fragmentation. Both are pretty nice rounds.

What I would like to see for the 7.62x25mm would be a hollowpoint that goes out to about 0.60" diameter and has the accompanying mass to drive it to the minimum of 12.0".

Thank you,

JE223

[JohnKSa]

Thanks for all the work, I definitely got the easy part--especially since Tom (www.tomsgunshop.com) handled the shipping for me.

[denfoote]

Any chance of you sending these results to Hornady??

[Brass Fetcher]

Well, I could send the results to Hornady. But I don't see one everyday Joe like myself having much sway - 10 or more of the folks who are interested contacting Hornady would have much more sway IMO.

I imagine that at a company like Hornady, it is not all 'about the bottom line' as it is with most other companies. That has been my experience with most bullet/ammo companies, that the spirit of one hobbiest helping another, still survives. If they could turn a profit and had the time, it would be quite the thing to see effective factory JHPs for the CZ and similar guns!

JE223

[the naked prophet]

I would love to have a Glock with double stack mags in this caliber. I would carry that, if I could wrap my hand around it. Maybe a double stack 1911 or something else single action.

[merpho]

Reeds Ammo Research already loads the Hornady bullets in 7.62x25. They recommend you install a 18.5 recoil spring. They function well in my CZ52 which I carry for self defense.

[McCall911]

What I would like to see for the 7.62x25mm would be a hollowpoint that goes out to about 0.60" diameter

My thoughts exactly. The expansion was a little underwhelming at first sight, but we've got to remember the 7.62x25 is basically a .30 caliber handgun cartridge. Still, if 9mm's can expand up to .75 inch, then it would appear to be possible to squeeze out more expansion from the 7.62 round with a little development.

Anyway, thanks again, JE223.

[Brass Fetcher]

I just measured some parts of a USGI M1911 magazine - it appears to be quite a bit thicker than the CZ-52 magazine, and has slightly less length for a cartridge than the CZ-52.

So. What about lengthening the cut in the 1911 magazine well, and welding (initially) spacers to the CZ-52 magazine to make up for the narrower width? Get a .32ACP barrel blank, and ream it with a 7.62x25mm. Somewhere along the line, the outer diameter of the blank should be dimensioned the same as the .45ACP barrel its replacing. :)

As I've shown in an earlier thread, it appears as though the recoil of the 7.62x25mm should be equal or less than the .45ACP. The only complaint that I have with the CZ-52, is the CZ-52. Sorry. I like the gun, but the caliber is what really endears it to me - it could be a lot more popular with the 'right' bullets and by being chambered in a more ergonomic pistol.

JE223

[R127]

This is a favorite caliber of mine. I once did some research regarding a possible homebrew doublestack 7.62x25 and saw that the round should work pretty well in a 10mm magazine. I think there is probably something you could do with a 10mm EAA Witness, a 9mm slide(for compatible breechface) and a custom barrel to get you a doublestack autoloader in 7.62x25.

[konaseven]

Has anyone tried out the Wolf ammo in 7.62x25 Jacketed Hollow point? I have some on the way for a CZ-52 I just picked up.

I see Winchester makes WWB for this gun in ball ammo.

EDIT: Never mind I see the Wolf JHP's have already been mentioned in another 7.62x25 thread.

[Brass Fetcher]

It appears to me that the 5.7x28mm cartridge is longer than the 7.62x25mm... any thoughts on rechambering the 5.7 pistol for this cartridge?

Are there any lower-priced 5.7x28mm handguns than the FN 5.7?

[earplug]

While I have been interested in the 7.62x25. The 9x23 does A better job.
Don't beat A dead horse, find A live one.

[Geronimo45]

Are there any lower-priced 5.7x28mm handguns than the FN 5.7?
Don't think any other 5.7 hanguns exist at the moment.

[Soybomb]

Those are surprisingly good looking, nice work.

[Novus Collectus]

I just measured some parts of a USGI M1911 magazine - it appears to be quite a bit thicker than the CZ-52 magazine, and has slightly less length for a cartridge than the CZ-52.

So. What about lengthening the cut in the 1911 magazine well, and welding (initially) spacers to the CZ-52 magazine to make up for the narrower width? Get a .32ACP barrel blank, and ream it with a 7.62x25mm. Somewhere along the line, the outer diameter of the blank should be dimensioned the same as the .45ACP barrel its replacing. I read an issue of Amall Arms Review where they had an article about a war trophy broight back from the Vietnam war. The North Vietnamese took a captured 1911A1, shaved out the front inside of the magazine well so that it could take a Tokarev 33 magazine, opened up the ejection port in the slide (exposing the first locking lug on the barrel which was also relined to 7.62) and welded then remilled the face of the slide to accept the base of the tokarev cartridge.
Looked cool, but also looked like a dangerous conversion.

[RyanM]

Isn't the .224 something or other, which is just 7.62x25mm necked down to .223, supposed to be significantly more powerful than 5.7x28mm? Something like the same velocity with a 50% heavier bullet. I'm guessing 7.62x25mm would just be too powerful for the platform.

[sefus]

IMO, The 7.62X25mm operates at high enough velocity that a hollow point bullet is neither needed or desired. A good soft point will provide all the expansion needed, and a better, more controlled expansion than with most hollow points.

But mines a plinker, not a defensive gun. Would be interested to see a HP test through a few layers of Denum.

-Sefus

[Brass Fetcher]

I had heard about using the 110gr 'Plinker' jacketed softpoint at the time that I did this test. If I ever get this handgun again, I will probably do some more experimenting with loads.

[tinygnat219]

I'd LOVE to see something modern even in SINGLE stack with this cartridge. I have examples of both pistols chambered for it (CZ-52, TT-33). and I would LOVE to have something modern in this cartridge for Concealed carry.

[fletcher]

Looking good. Doesn't seem like overpenetration would be an issue with the proper JHP for this caliber.

[Silvanus]

Now all we have to do is convince Hornady to make them!!


And a decent new handgun in the caliber. Glock comes to mind when I think about it. They have that pistol in so many calibers, why not one in 7.62x25?

[fletcher]

And a decent new handgun in the caliber. Glock comes to mind when I think about it. They have that pistol in so many calibers, why not one in 7.62x25?
Whichever manufacturer puts out a new handgun in this caliber will get my business very quickly.

[Jim Watson]

I have seen the Communist Chinese conversion of a 1911 captured from the Nationalist Chinese to .30 Mauser/Tokarev. The magazine well was cut out to take a magazine for the longer round and the front strap is paper thin.

You might do better with a Star. They actually made guns in .30 Mauser and a surplus Largo might have the same magazine dimensions. If so, all you need is a custom built barrel. The Internet Forum Interest seems to be greater than Real World Paying Customers for stuff like that, though.

[Brass Fetcher]

+1, Jim. One thing I wonder though, is whether or not the things that sets the 7.62x25mm apart from most other handgun calibers could be seized upon by a good marketing department?

IE - lots of people like high velocity handguns, which explains the popularity of the .357Mag/SIG and to some extent, the 9x19mm. It's generally accepted that the round is a good penetrator and as my gelatin tests hopefully show, decently performing when used with an expanding bullet.

[tinygnat219]

The Star Model A Might be a good candidate for this, as the 9MM Largo round has the following dimensions:
9MM Largo:
CASE: 9mm Largo
BULLET DIA: .355
NECK DIA: .379
BASE DIA: .390
RIM DIA: .392
CASE OAL: .911
CTG OAL: 1.32


7.62X25:
Neck diameter .330 in (8.38 mm)
Shoulder diameter .370 in (9.4 mm)
Base diameter .380 in (9.65 mm)
Rim diameter .390 in (9.91 mm)
Rim thickness .052 in (1.32 mm)
Case length .97 in (24.64 mm)
Overall length 1.35 in (34.29 mm)

The base and rim diameters are fairly close as is the OAL of the cartridge. The question that REALLY needs to be answered is can the Star Model A effectively handle the increased pressure from the 7.62 Tokarev.

[the naked prophet]

How does the length compare to a 10mm? I still say a 10mm Glock is a good base for a conversion, if it'll fit. You may need a narrower mag, and will need a new barrel and slide face/extractor/ejector.

[Jim Watson]

7.62x25 is .12" longer than a 10mm. That is the challenge, I do not think anybody now makes a gun with magazine long enough.
Star did make .30 Mausers. If they used the same frame for Largo, that would be a cheap conversion if you could make or procure a barrel. Certainly it would hold Mauser ammo and probably Tokarev. Might not last with hot Czech loads.

The best source for an investor would be to approach Russia or one of the other East Bloc countries that still had Tokarev tooling. Engineer a proper thumb safety, not the silly gadgets applied to Communist surplus to gain import points, find the mold for the P38 style grips of the Tokagypt, apply a commercial finish, and you are in business. The mad scientist known as Clark is of the opinion that the Tokarev is actually more durable than the CZ in spite of the latters roller breech.

[JohnKSa]

The mad scientist known as Clark is of the opinion that the Tokarev is actually more durable than the CZ in spite of the latters roller breech.I think that you've correctly stated his opinion, however his test results, in my opinion, would better be stated as: The Tokarev is actually STRONGER than the CZ in spite of the latter's roller breech.

I believe that he proved that the Tokarev would hold together with loads that would explode the CZ. That definitely means the Tok is stronger, but it's hard to say for sure that it means that the Tok is more durable.

My personal opinion is that the CZ will do better handling a steady diet of strong loads (as long as they're not so hot that they blow up the gun) due to the more robust locking mechanism.

[RyanM]

The problem with the CZ-52 was that he stated that the bottom of the chamber was one of the thinnest he'd ever seen. I think he said only the Kel-Tec P3AT is thinner.

[0007]

What about using a 1911 in .38Super? Isn't the .38S case about 23mm long? Ooops, my bad. That's still 2mm short.

[tinygnat219]

How about something in the FN 5.7 platform?
The OAL of the 5.7X28 cartridge is 1.5 inches, with the Tokarev round being slightly shorter at 1.35 inches. Could it fit in the FN 5.7 magazines? Maybe change the magazine follower so that it could. It shouldn't be too hard for the FN gang to actually make a .30 Caliber barrel, and then allow a slide conversion like the 1911s with a .22 LR conversion. Just swap out the slide, and use the same magazines.

Hmmmm...

[Jim Watson]

Bear in mind that the FN is blowback operated.
Not MY 7.62x25, thank you.

[Brass Fetcher]

@0007 - It looks like the COL of the .38 Super is 1.280", while the 7.62x25mm is 1.35". I imagine that the xNUMBER is less important than the cartridge overall length, at least in this case.

What about creating a 'new' 7.62x25mm cartridge, one with the bullet seating depth increased to make a cartridge of, oh, say 1.280" COL?

[R.W.Dale]

What about creating a 'new' 7.62x25mm cartridge, one with the bullet seating depth increased to make a cartridge of, oh, say 1.280" COL?

In that case just save yourself the trouble and go with 30 Luger 8/10'ths the performance and it'll fit in just about ANY handgun.

Or just do as I did and trade the Tokarev in and buy a Glock in .357

[Malodorousroadkill]

They do make a weird .223 version of the tok called the .22 Reed Express and does hit at the velocities of the 5.7x28 with a heavier bullet. It is a long round though, you might do better with the 9x25 dillon or a .357 sig necked down to .30? That would be interesting and short.

[Jim Watson]

There was an experimenter who proposed rebarreling a gun (.38 Super, maybe) to 7.62 and using hollowpoints and flatpoints seated deep enough to fit the magazine. Never heard from him about the results, though.

If I wanted extreme high velocity from a standard size automatic, I'd just load a 9x23 with some 80 - 90 grain .380 bullets. The Barnes XPB copper bullet ought to be tough enough do well. But I wouldn't get the sex appeal of the bottleneck cartridge.

[Deer Hunter]

The 9mm Dillon already hits 1800 fps with 100ish grain bullets, though.

[mavracer]

you guys want velocity!!!!!!
from doubletap's web sight Caliber : 9X25

Bullet : 90gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP

Ballistics : 2100fps / 881 ft. lbs. 6" Lone Wolf bbl

[SaMx]

just for academic purposes, can you test the wolf gold hollow point (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/37236-46671-254.html) in gelatin?

[rdrancher]

+1 on a wolf gold hollow point test.

JE223 - How much will it cost?

rd

[seeker_two]

At one time, the major gunmakers (Beretta, SIG, Ruger, etc) made versions of their 9mm guns in .30 Luger/Mauser for sale in those countries that prohibited ownership of 9mm's....

Why not convert one of those? I'd go for a Beretta 92 in .30Tok.... :cool:

[zinj]

At one time, the major gunmakers (Beretta, SIG, Ruger, etc) made versions of their 9mm guns in .30 Luger/Mauser for sale in those countries that prohibited ownership of 9mm's....

.30 Luger is a much different cartridge than .30 Mauser.

[Brass Fetcher]

just for academic purposes, can you test the wolf gold hollow point in gelatin?

+1 on a wolf gold hollow point test.

JE223 - How much will it cost?

rd

In order to test that cartridge in gelatin, I will need to borrow a 7.62x25mm gun to shoot. For 75USD, I will supply the ammunition and the gelatin block.

[rdrancher]

JE223 - If you can find a CZ52 or Tok to borrow, I'll fund the test.

Let me know.

rd

[Brass Fetcher]

That sounds good to me. I know a few fellow gun nuts in my area, at least one of which should have a CZ-52.

Thank you,

JE

[seeker_two]

.30 Luger is a much different cartridge than .30 Mauser.


In power...yes. But the cartridge dimensions are the same. Kinda like the .38ACP and .38 Super.....

For a conversion, you'd definitely have to change out the recoil & firing pin springs. Probably add shock buffers. Like converting a .45ACP to .45 Super or .460 Rowland.....

[Jim Watson]

But the cartridge dimensions are the same. Kinda like the .38ACP and .38 Super

Not quite like. 7.62x25 is on a 25 mm case, fancy that. 7.65 Luger is on a 21mm case; OALs in proportion.

O'l Georg reduced the length of the round because he was moving the recoil spring to the backstrap behind the magazine instead of in the Borchardt's ungainly housing and did not want to end up with an ungainly wide grip. The CZ52's designers did not have that freedom because they were stuck with the Sov-bloc standard round.

[Novus Collectus]

Seeker_two, you are confusing the similar case dimensions of the Tokarev round and the Mauser round with the Luger round.
Tokarev is almost identical to the 7.63 Mauser and both are defintiely not interchangeable than the different dimensioned .30 Luger.

From Wikipedia:

.30 Luger
Bullet diameter 7.861 mm (0.309 in)
Neck diameter 8.433 mm (0.332 in)
Base diameter 9.906 mm (0.39 in)
Rim diameter 10.01 mm (0.394 in)
Case length 21.59 mm (0.85 in)

Tokarev
Bullet diameter .307 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter .330 in (8.38 mm)
Shoulder diameter .370 in (9.4 mm)
Base diameter .380 in (9.65 mm)
Rim diameter .390 in (9.91 mm)
Rim thickness .052 in (1.32 mm)
Case length .97 in (24.64 mm)

7.63 Mauser
Neck diameter .332 in (8.43 mm)
Shoulder diameter .370 in (9.4 mm)
Base diameter .381 in (9.68 mm)
Rim diameter .390 in (9.91 mm)

[rdrancher]

JE223 - Cash for the test has been sent.

rd

[Brass Fetcher]

rd - The money has been received, thank you. I will begin checking around for a CZ-52 shooter on Monday.

JE

[seeker_two]

Come on, guys....what's a couple of millimeters between friends?... ;)

Thanks for the correction. :D

[RyanM]

This should be an interesting test. If the results are good, the CZ-52 may yet be a decent glovebox gun.

Are you going to try squeezing in a 4-layer denim test? Almost any JHP can do fine against bare gel, but it's the denim that really seperates the men from the boys.

[Brass Fetcher]

@RyanM - The automobile/light cover realm is an area that I would like to explore further with the 7.62x25mm. IE, using a hollowpoint that performs reliably in bare gelatin (and maybe denim), I would like to evaluate that bullets performance against the FBI car door barrier test in comparison to the more conventional handgun bullets like 9x19mm - .45ACP, etc.

The search for a CZ-52 shooter had to be postponed until Tuesday.

[the naked prophet]

That's one of the reasons I want a serious handgun (as opposed to a collector's piece or impractical-for-carry milsurp) chambered in that caliber.

With the amazing work that SA did in making a double stack .45 fit in that small XD grip, I'd like to see the same thing in 7.62x25 (might be a bit longer but thinner grip). I don't think it would be too difficult. I'd LOVE a S&W M&P semiauto in that caliber, as that is my personal favorite of the "serious" handguns.

[Brass Fetcher]

Update : the 7.62x25mm Wolf JHP has been ordered. The scheduled delivery date is 01OCT07... if it doesn't get here any sooner, the test will be tentatively scheduled to occur on Saturday, 06OCT07.

[rdrancher]

JE223 - Looking forward to the test!

rd

[mavracer]

while we're waiting I chronoed some,the wolf JHP were much slower than Sellier&Bellot FMJ 1400 fps ave for wolf 1550 ave for S&B. of course thats the same 1550 that my 10mm 135 noslers posted:what:

[macadore]

Thanks for the work. I feel the 7.62x25 is a real sleeper round. As for handgun conversions, I believe AMT, and maybe others, made a handgun in .30 Carbine. I’m not a gunsmith, so I don’t know if that would work or not. It would be interesting to see a comparison of the 7.62x25 with the .30 Carbine round.

[Novus Collectus]

Macadore, this articles says the .30 carbine shooting an 85 gr bullet gets up to 2000 ft/s out of a Ruger Blackhawk revolver http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aastruger30bh.htm

[AZAndy]

Thanks, all, for this interesting discussion. I'm pleased to report that this thread gave me a perfect excuse to get a CZ-52 to try out the cartridge for myself. As this is an ammunition-centered thread, I'll share my impressions of the pistol elsewhere...

I look forward to the further testing!

[macadore]

Thanks Novus. That would seem to give the .30 carbine and edge over the7.62x25.

[Ignition Override]

For a guy who has no knowledge of handguns, how would you compare the power of this Russian round to the 380 ACP or 9mm?

How easy is it to spare Tokarev parts in the US?

[Brass Fetcher]

I can't speak for the spare parts issue, because I only owned the gun long enough to conduct testing with it, but as far as how the 7.62x25mm compares to the 9x17mm and 9x19mm ...

A typical 7.62x25mm cartridge produces 450 ft-lbs of kinetic energy, whereas the 'typical' high pressure 9x19mm produces about 430 ft-lbs. The .380ACP is naturally less than either of these two.

The difference comes into play when penetration is discussed. It appears as though some companies offer 90gr 9x19mm cartridges that travel at 1500 ft/sec from the muzzle. This is pretty close to a 85gr bullet moving at 1550 ft/sec, with the difference being the diameter of the bullets.

A 7.62x25mm bullet is 0.310"ish in diameter, giving a surface area for the bullet of 0.075 square inches. A 9mm bullet is 0.355" in diameter, giving a bullet surface area of 0.100 square inches ... this is what makes the 7.62x25mm hell-on-wheels for penetration ability.

[jjohnson]

Hey, NICE WORK! Thank you!

I've been a little leery of tests published by gun magazines who all have vested interests in one commercial deal or more. And while you can find results like FBI testing and whatnot for .40, 9mm, military testing foro 9mm, .45, it's hard to find for something uncommon.

I have a couple CZ52s also, and I gotta admit it's impressive :what: at the range. Fairly hot - but I've wondered at times how it would perform as a CCW deal. Makes sense that good expanding bullets would do well at the high velocities, but this is the first testing I've seen for the Tokarev round.

Very good of you to take the time and trouble to share your findings. The CZ52 isn't pretty (:barf:) and is a bit clunky for my CCW, but maybe I'll leave it under the seat of my truck now....:evil:

[wnycollector]

If you want to CC a 7.62 chambered pistol...the only option is the Tok! SOOOO slim, it disapears IWB. Now if you could only carry it cocked and locked:evil: I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 9 rounds of wolf JHP.

How easy is it to spare Tokarev parts in the US?

Lots of spare tok parts from these guys www.marstar.ca

[notjustanothermini]

i hate to dig this one up, but i stumbled on it while looking for a .440 corbon conversion on a 50gi glock. HA, no luck with that. as you could imagine.

but
I would love to have a Glock with double stack mags in this caliber. I would carry that, if I could wrap my hand around it. Maybe a double stack 1911 or something else single action.

they do its called a glock model 31,32,33.

also a 10mm glock converted to 9x25dillon, is a screamer, i have a g29 with a LWD 9x25 barrel and that thing is a fire breather.

you can shoot .30 luger out of a 7.62x25 gun, not the other way around.

ruger made a p89 in .30 luger, they are on gunbroker and guns america from time to time, with both 9mm and .30 luger barrels. i would imagine a finishing reamer would do the converion of the .30 luger barrel to chamber the tok round.

sorry for digging it up, any results of the testing you did?

[Giterboosted]

+1 for the wolf gold testing results as I'm wanting to carry my cz

[Brass Fetcher]

I'm sorry - I don't understand what the question is.

What test results are you looking for?

[Scimmia]

I'm sorry - I don't understand what the question is.

What test results are you looking for?

I believe the results they're asking for are the Wolf JHP tests you were planning:

Update : the 7.62x25mm Wolf JHP has been ordered. The scheduled delivery date is 01OCT07... if it doesn't get here any sooner, the test will be tentatively scheduled to occur on Saturday, 06OCT07.

you can shoot .30 luger out of a 7.62x25 gun, not the other way around.

Are you sure you're not thinking of the 30 Mauser? The 30 Mauser is very similar to the 30 Tokarev, just lower pressure/power. The 30 Luger is quite a bit different.

[Brass Fetcher]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Wolf%2085gr%20Copper%20JHP.html

I would assume that it might be on THR too.

[Pyro]

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