Had to keep my mouth shut


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chris in va
January 4, 2007, 11:45 PM
I was invited to a friend's house over Christmas for dinner. She's quite the ACLU/liberal type but enjoys a range trip regardless. However...

One of my gifts was a spotting scope, and her even MORE liberal sister started spouting off how no one should be allowed CC licenses. Here I am sitting on the couch with my VA and FL permits and it was all I could do to not make a scene. Frankly I'm no good with friendly arguments so I shut my trap.

I was so tempted to show her the permits though. :scrutiny:

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MechAg94
January 4, 2007, 11:47 PM
Sometimes, that is the best option. I know I am not the best speaker or the most persuasive. Also, gun rights debates are not always the best family discussions at Christmas. :)

MDHunter
January 5, 2007, 12:17 AM
especially since there were TWO of them, and if you don't trust your ability to remain calm, their emotion might get the better of them. Also you're at their house, so politely respecting their beliefs is a good practice in any account.

Curious though, how a spotting scope brought the topic up? Unless they knew it was for gun range versus hunting/birdwatching/etc....

And if her sister is hot and single, I'll be happy to try my luck at bringing her over to the good side.... :)

Happy New Year, Chris. I live in MD but work in NoVA, and am getting more alarmed at the influx of libbies into the VA area...in 10 years, NoVA and MD will look and act alike, I fear.

Michael

vynx
January 5, 2007, 01:22 AM
You did the right thing because with most of those people nothing you say will change their mind - they don't use logic.

I always think of it like this - when I walk past a house and the dog runs up to the fence and barks at me what do I do? Keep on walking on get down on my hands and knees and bark back?

When I hear a fool start spouting off - I just tell myself it would be like barking at a dog - a fool thing to do.

Stachie
January 5, 2007, 01:33 AM
You did the right thing.

ProguninTN
January 5, 2007, 01:52 AM
I had to keep quiet when anti neighbors came over for Christmas dinner. It wasn't so bad. I did get a new piece. :)

.38 Special
January 5, 2007, 01:59 AM
I have, on occasion, soundly defeated the arguments of anti-gunners (brag, brag) in a very polite, calm, and informative manner. This has, however, invariably resulted in an annoyed anti-gunner throwing up his hands (literally and/or figuratively), saying "whatever" and walking away.

So as mentioned above, there really is no point with the more rabid of the breed. The best possible outcome is that the anti-gunner walks away with mind unchanged but feathers unruffled. The rest of the possibilities are all more or less unpleasant. The old saw about not arguing religion or politics with anyone you want to remain on speaking terms with comes to mind.

ArchAngelCD
January 5, 2007, 03:27 AM
The Holidays are no time to argue, you did the right thing!

Colt46
January 5, 2007, 09:38 AM
I'm certain you might have lost control, let your bloodlust get up, and start shooting over something as silly as a friendly argument. That certainly would have given them validation in their beliefs.

dfaugh
January 5, 2007, 09:44 AM
I have, on occasion, soundly defeated the arguments of anti-gunners (brag, brag) in a very polite, calm, and informative manner.

Me too, and pretty consistantly. The key is to NOT stoop to their level of illogic and emotion, and talk about the undeniable facts about gun ownership.

Having said that, you probably did the right thing...no point in ruining a holiday celebration witha heated debate.

High Planes Drifter
January 5, 2007, 09:48 AM
I think you did a good job taking the high road on this one. However, IMO I think your friend is a bad host. She knows your pro-2A, she should have pulled her sister aside and told her to cool it with the political views, that it was offending certain people. Christmas get-togethers arent the right time to be debating issues; that goes for everyone, supporters and anti's.

Missashot
January 5, 2007, 10:36 AM
I think you did the right thing by not going in to confrontation mode with this. Christmas is just not the right time, nor is someone else's home the place to get into a conversation like that. Good job!
However,in all fairness, (And in keeping with a peaceful Christmas spirit.) I do think that the mouthy sister should have been asked to back off.
I say you showed a lot of restraint and class!

MDHunter
January 5, 2007, 11:30 AM
What's with all this stuff about restraint, class, and good judgement? I thought we gunnies were all rabid, sexually undeveloped relics who are out of touch with civilization? :evil:

(Darn, maybe I've been in maryland too long...that came out pretty quickly...)

Michael

30 cal slob
January 5, 2007, 11:32 AM
was she a looker?

i'm generally more polite if she's cute. :neener:

if she looks like rosie o'doughnuts, i let loose.

Father Knows Best
January 5, 2007, 11:40 AM
We moved to Minnesota from Tennessee just this past summer, and so wound up in a new neighborhood where we didn't know anyone. We had just started getting to know some of our neighbors when Halloween rolled around. We got invited to a neighbor's house for a party, and the host greeted us at the door in his "costume." He was dressed up in dirty overalls and a wife-beater t-shirt with a fake beer gut (pillow). He was wearing a baseball cap with a big NRA logo on the front, and he had fake buckteeth in his mouth. Did I mention he was also barefoot and carrying a moonshine jug? Anyway, when he opened the door, he grinned and said, "Hi, y'all! I'm collecting donations fer tha N-R-A! :fire:

Damn yankees... :cuss:

Prince Yamato
January 5, 2007, 11:41 AM
My liberal friends (the real far lefties) are all like the one you described. They make blanket proclamations like, "no one should own a gun". Even after they agree that if you ban guns that only criminals will have guns, they still stick to their statements. Remember, most of them just want attention. Think of them like puppies. You give your puppy treats now and then, but don't give 'em too many, or they'll come to expect having what they want when they want, and like the liberal, will whine to get it.

Tokugawa
January 5, 2007, 12:00 PM
I love arguments.
So I usually fire back by saying , "yeah, especially those Jew's and Blacks and Asians and Latino's shouldn't have guns cause it make it so much easier to round them up and put them in the camps."

This is a difficult thing for them to process. Along with the the fact that most of the murdered in the 20th century have been disarmed people murdered by thier own government. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.

I am DONE with hearing people bash gunowners. I won't start an argument, but I am sure not gonna sit there and listen without defense.

K3
January 5, 2007, 12:43 PM
You should have invited her to the range for an afternoon. That works wonders sometimes.

Story: I have a cousin who is very liberal and was rabidly anti. She began working for the DAs office and I guess a lightbulb went off in her head. She wanted my advice on a carry pistol. We talked for the better part of an hour. I'm not sure what she ended up getting, but I know she got something. She used to preach about the evils of private gun ownership any chance she'd get. Now she doesn't. I wish it were that easy all the time. I didn't even have to do any real work.

chris in va
January 5, 2007, 02:28 PM
It was definitely an interesting situation. Fortunately the CC mention was only for a minute and the topic quickly switched to something else. I wasn't alone in my beliefs, my best buddy was there too (it was his GF's house we were at).

I failed to mention her mother was there too, also liberal. All three are from Baltimore, the mother and sister originally being from NYC.

When I went to the kitchen we had a good chuckle about the comments made.

Oh, and how they look? Think Sally Jesse Raphael.

Derby FALs
January 5, 2007, 02:34 PM
I prefer open carry, Old West Style. hehehe...

JAMES77257
January 5, 2007, 02:44 PM
I don't associate with anti's, come to think of it, I prefer not to associate with anyone.:)

SamTuckerMTNMAN
January 5, 2007, 02:53 PM
I find this works really well if they have any sense at all.

"I noticed you have some strong beliefs relating to 'guns'. It seems like everyone in our country is so divided, it's a good time to both explore a common ground as well as offer each other some constructive ideas. I happen to exercise my right to keep and bear arms and feel it is vital for the continued existence of a relatively free nation. Would you care to open this up a little with me?"

And then, without resorting to anger as much as possible, explain the importance of bearings arms in the larger political sense. Liberals tend to champion the 'underdog' and may be able to realize your point. They are afraid of 'tyranny', they think, and want to resist it and just don't realize they are becoming the tyranny. Ask if she thinks police and military should have guns (usually the answer is no). So then, bring up the possibility of a world run by a fascist gov't and no way to resist or defend local areas. Give her things to think about she hasn't considered and brush up on American historical figures as well as the continued usurpation of power from common citizens to corporations. Ask about the role of Jewish resistance in WWII and review a pro gun facts site so you can politely answer some of her fears about firearms and terrorists, criminals, CCW's etc
You;d be surprised to find there may some wiggle room. Heh.

Mannlicher
January 5, 2007, 02:54 PM
I'd say you could pick your friends better. :rolleyes:

Dave P
January 5, 2007, 02:57 PM
My sister and BIL in CA always came across as anti-gun. BIL once made similar comment about not needing CCW.

But to my surprise, this year he asks me to show him how to use his H/D shotgun! So there is hope yet!

Dave

Father Knows Best
January 5, 2007, 03:59 PM
And then, without resorting to anger as much as possible, explain the importance of bearings arms in the larger political sense.
That's nice in theory, but my experience is that it doesn't work that way, for two reasons. First of all, most liberals believe that anyone who opposes gun control is a rabid, pro-violence, uneducated "gun nut" who will make up any excuse to cover his pathetic and pathological need to fondle instruments of death and destruction. In other words, they won't believe for an instant that you're being sincere. Instead, they will believe that all that nice talk about "public welfare" and a "free society" is just mumbo-jumbo we spew to justify our sick desire to masturbate to the sound of bombs and machine guns.

Second, and more important, those very same gun-hating liberals who don't trust your motives tend to themselves be hoplophobes, to use Jeff Cooper's term. Here's what he said about the topic in his classic essay The Root of the Evil:
I coined the term hoplohobia over twenty years ago, not out of pretension but in the sincere belief that we should recognize a very peculiar sociological attitude for what is - a more or less hysterical neurosis rather than a legitimate political position. It follows convention in the use of Greek roots in describing specific mental afflictions. Hoplon is the Greek word for "instrument," but refers synonymously to "weapon" since the earliest and principal instruments were weapons. Phobos is Greek for "terror" and medically denotes unreasoning panic rather than normal fear. Thus hoplophobia is a mental disturbance characterized by irrational aversion to weapons, as opposed to justified apprehension about those who may wield them. The word has not become common, though twenty years is perhaps too short a time in which to test it, but I am nevertheless convinced that it has merit. We read of "gun grabbers" and "anti-gun nuts" but these slang terms do not face up to the reasons why such people behave the way they do. They do not adequately suggest that reason, logic, and truth can have no effect upon one who is irrational on the point under discussion. You cannot say calmly "Come, let us reason together" to a hoplophobe, because that is what he is - a hoplophobe, He is not just one who holds an opposing view, he is an obsessive neurotic. You can speak, write, and illustrate the merits of the case until you drop dead, and no matter how good you are his mind will not be changed. A victim of hydrophobia will die, horribly, rather than accept the water his body desperately needs. A victim of hoplophobia will die, probably, before he will accept the fallacy of his emotional fixation for what it is.

Beatnik
January 5, 2007, 04:04 PM
So I usually fire back by saying , "yeah, especially those Jew's and Blacks and Asians and Latino's shouldn't have guns cause it make it so much easier to round them up and put them in the camps."

One of my favorite unknown facts about gun control involves "Saturday Night Special" laws. They were the first gun control laws to hit the books, and they were designed solely to keep guns out of the hands of freed slaves. I like pointing that one out because (and I may be kicking the hornet's nest here) libs tend to buy in to the idea that blacks are to this day being oppressed.

Economically disadvantaged demographic + banned inexpensive arms = disarmed demographic.

SamTuckerMTNMAN
January 5, 2007, 04:10 PM
can't argue with experience. Luv the definition. It's probably the factors of; I live in a mountain area where lines blur often between redneck and hippie, conservative mountain folk and do it yurself homesteaders, new age healers and christian mystics. Add to that my wild hair etc. and you get people who are willing to hear me out, most of the time. That...and I just can't stand to go away from the fight, even thought many hear called it the High Road, the fight can be low intensity, but they have to hear my side, and see that not all gun owners are insane blood smeared beer drinking killers. . . . on the surface :evil: :D

Robert Hairless
January 5, 2007, 05:14 PM
Next time you might want to try this approach, very gently.

I can see why you might be worried about strangers who legally carry concealed weapons. My own concern is a little different. Those people who have concealed weapons permits all have background checks by the FBI and the state, so I'm not too worried about them. I'm worried about the people I don't really know who aren't cleared by the FBI and the state police. So I'm curious about, say, the people here who haven't been cleared. Have you passed background checks recently? If not, I'm curious why you haven't.

GEM
January 5, 2007, 06:16 PM
There is a generic problem of folks announcing their lunatic fringe opinions at gatherings.

I've suffered through antigunners to racists at get togethers. Better to stay home and watch a movie sometime. Best to avoid the conflict.

I really don't care about your unsolicited opinion about anything.

Prince Yamato
January 5, 2007, 06:21 PM
Robert,

you bring up a good point. After having passed a CCW test, we have PROOF that we are not criminals. Those that do not have the liscence have NO physical proof that they are not criminals or have not been a criminal... So why haven't these people got CCWs? Are they afraid that they won't pass the test?

Sniper4Life
January 5, 2007, 06:30 PM
I've suffered through antigunners to racists at get togethers. Better to stay home and watch a movie sometime. Best to avoid the conflict.


Been there done that, better yet stay home and watch a movie while cleaning your guns:D

Zen21Tao
January 5, 2007, 06:56 PM
The best part about arguing with far left liberals is that they desire unrestricted rights in other cases. This can be such a powerful tool, and indeed leverage, when arguing a far left gun-grabber:

Tell them that women shouldn’t be allowed to speak on the weekends, that no one under 35 should be allowed an abortion and that they should have to listen to prayers in school on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Then just sit back and watch them go ballistic telling why your rights should be limited (or even stripped) but their cherished rights shouldn’t be limited. Draw a parallel between their desire to limit your rights and your desire to limit theirs, saying that the reasons for such limitations are completely irrelevant as they are just excuses for letting personal opinions be used to limited rights. Then, finally, remind them that the 2nd Amendment is what protects the rights they cherish. Ask them how they plan to keep there rights intact from a government that takes away their very ability to do so.

*** I would even show my CCW to the gun-grabber and say something like: “I respect your rights enough that I am actively working to protect them even though you are trying to completely destroy my rights. Who’s the hypocrite now?

kungfuhippie
January 5, 2007, 07:27 PM
I was showing a gunstock I'm in the process of refinishing to my sister, the other goes nuts and demands I put it away, that she doesn't want to hear about guns or even see them, that they are bad and that no one needs guns...:barf: :barf:

I had two choices;
Point out using nice word that she's a complete idiot and is speaking on emotions and not facts.

or

Tell her that I know she has differing opinions about guns and I see no reason to debate something with her due to past expirence.

Choice B ticked her off more because I wouldn't start an arguement. She kept pushing, so I decided to fight back. I'd turned the cheek once. She's got a degree in psycology so I explained that she was projecting fears of her lack of self control onto others with blanket statements like the ones she made. I pointed out that attributing an inanimate object with human traits (guns are bad) is often a sign of mental disorder. I pointed out that by taking guns away from the people a government gets too powerful, I cited Nazi Germany, USSR, China. She caries a wistle on her key chain to "stop rapists and criminals" I explained that ccw is like a wistle that works when no one is around to save you. Then I asked why she thought bystandards would try and help, since as a social worker, she's seen how people just turn a blind eye so often.

The result was an emotional BF like no other, she knew she had no facts or counter attack except to storm off and call me some nice 4 letter words:D

So I don't advocate picking a fight, especially in another's home, sometimes they'll get even more ticked when they try to pick a fight and you don't bite.

Ryder
January 5, 2007, 07:28 PM
They've got us on lists, I'm thinking we should have them on one too. Sure make it easier to avoid them. :D

Robert Hairless
January 5, 2007, 11:59 PM
you bring up a good point. After having passed a CCW test, we have PROOF that we are not criminals. Those that do not have the liscence have NO physical proof that they are not criminals or have not been a criminal... So why haven't these people got CCWs? Are they afraid that they won't pass the test?

An interesting variant of what I suggested is to say, calmly and matter of factly, "Am I the only person in this room who can prove he is not a criminal and has never been convicted of a felony? That's scarey."

BullfrogKen
January 6, 2007, 12:42 AM
Anyone who decides, at a family gathering and during a holiday, to make politically venomous pronouncements has some internal problems. There isn't anything you could have done but made it turn ugly.


Just smile and bring up another topic, even if you have to say, "This isn't appropriate for the holiday, Jane . . ." Then tell your best buddy and his girlfriend you don't want to spend time with those people if they can't be gracious hosts. It'll get back to them.

Hot brass
January 6, 2007, 03:03 AM
I think that you did the right thing.

BUT on the other hand, when libs come to my house if the subject comes up, YES I have a gun. I am pro gun. We can talk about it. If asked if I carry, I ask why? Then state it none of your concern. Lets have dinner. :D

tegemu
January 6, 2007, 09:48 AM
When arguing/discussing with raving anti-gun folks, an old saying applies, "Do not argue with a pig, it does no good and only annoys the pig."

ksnecktieman
January 6, 2007, 10:03 AM
I think an excellent response would have been to excuse yourself, go out the front door to your car, open and close your car door, and return to the gathering. Offer no explanation, and if asked tell them you did not want to argue, and felt your gun unwelcome so you locked it in the car.

The option of starting an argument would then be theirs.

Wedge
January 6, 2007, 11:55 AM
I routinely keep my mouth shut at family gatherings.

Either it is the vegans/vegitarians, the anti's, the ones that want the government to do everything for them yet complain about their taxes...you get the picture. So I sit and nod and act as a good guest if the topic of discussion ever turns to that subject.

In my own house I keep the topics from ever coming up unless they are pro-gun, hunting type friends.

Father Knows Best
January 6, 2007, 12:23 PM
I routinely keep my mouth shut at family gatherings.
I don't. My dad is a bigger gun nut than I am. While my father-in-law doesn't have any interest in guns, he doesn't have anything against them, either. And like me, he's a hardcore libertarian.

Pilgrim
January 6, 2007, 12:34 PM
One of my gifts was a spotting scope, and her even MORE liberal sister started spouting off how no one should be allowed CC licenses. Here I am sitting on the couch with my VA and FL permits and it was all I could do to not make a scene. Frankly I'm no good with friendly arguments so I shut my trap.
Unfortunately, super liberal sister goes away thinking she has won a moral victory.

Pilgrim

sacp81170a
January 6, 2007, 12:45 PM
not all gun owners are insane blood smeared beer drinking killers. . . . on the surface

SamT:

Does this mean that, deep down, under that lovable exterior you project to the world that you really ARE an insane blood smeared beer drinking killer? Inquiring minds want to know...

:evil: :D

athlon64
January 6, 2007, 01:00 PM
When arguing/discussing with raving anti-gun folks, an old saying applies, "Do not argue with a pig, it does no good and only annoys the pig."

Yep, it's a waste of time to argue with idiots. These are the same double-standard morons, who if/when faced with a situation where a gun is the only option, will expect others to provide one to them, or otherwise protect them with a gun.

Leanwolf
January 6, 2007, 07:53 PM
Although my friends and family members are pro-U.S. Constitution... the way it was written, I have at times, when I lived in Los Angeles, found myself in the company of left wing liberals at social functions. (Hollywood type functions.) As politics was sometimes discussed, it was not unusual for the "gun control" issue to come up. There was always someone who'd go off into rants and raves of how evil guns and gun owners were.

I would then say, "I disagree with you 100%, but I'll keep my mouth shut if you will. Do not take my silence as acquiescense, or agreement. I came here to enjoy myself, not get in a verbal knockdown dragout with you or anyone else."

In almost all cases, that would stop the rants.

On one occasion however, at a large "show business" party, the "gun control" subject came up, although I wasn't the one who brought it up.

A very vociferous and extreme left wing actor began shouting at me that "One day, we're going to confiscate all those damned guns, and Leanwolf, that includes your's!"

I looked him in the eye and said, "Okay, so you'll be walking point leading your Gestapo gang when you come to confiscate my guns, huh??"

He stammered and then said, "You're just one of those crazy gun nuts!"

I said, "Well, if you won't walk point, you're just one of those typical liberal hypocritical cowards."

He turned and walked off. Even some of the liberals there laughed at him.

FWIW.

L.W.

BozemanMT
January 6, 2007, 10:37 PM
who cares about the permits, did you pull out your weapon?

That would have really gotten them riled up.:evil:

ReadyontheRight
January 7, 2007, 12:12 AM
Father Knows Best

I sincerely apologize for all Minnesotans. They know not what they mock. :)

Plenty of true NRA members here if you look hard enough.

larry_minn
January 7, 2007, 12:27 AM
Tonight I had to hang up on a relative. We were having a friendly call and he started up. I got him away from firearms and he went to the war and Republican party. He was swearing and cursing and wouldn't even allow that I was entitled to my opinion. "How about we agree to disagree?" So I finally said "I will talk to you later when you have cooled off have a nice evening, goodbye" Doubt he will want to talk to me anymore. (not the worst thing) He said I knew NOTHING and his sources told the truth. (but would not name them/tell me where he got his info. He just KNEW.

Davo
January 7, 2007, 01:27 AM
I love pointing out the elitist stereotype of gunowners being uneducated drunk rednecks.
I then (in my best hippy tone) state that people should be tolerant of other peoples view's, even if they dont always agree.
The reaction I get is is typically frustration...I refer to it as cognitive disonnance.;)

Parvenu
January 7, 2007, 05:08 PM
what are VA and FL permits? are they the ones u are allowed to have a concealed weapon? you should have handed her the permit and said " how dare you!" and then wave the gun around.

for effect, of course.

JerryM
January 7, 2007, 07:21 PM
You took the right approach.
Fortunately I do not have such problems. I have NO friends who are liberals or anti-gun, and some other things as well.

Jerry

BullfrogKen
January 7, 2007, 07:32 PM
Pilgrim said: Unfortunately, super liberal sister goes away thinking she has won a moral victory.

So. You can either engage in a verbal sparring bout, or let it go. You certainly won't change a mind so entrenched. All that does is makes everyone there uncomfortable with a nasty fight. Who cares if she thought she "won"?

KC&97TA
January 7, 2007, 07:37 PM
You know, the "why don't you have a CCW licence, are you a criminial?" is a good response.

Not KC, I won't keep my mouth shut when confronted... and I lay it all on the line; I have shrapenal in 6 areas of my body, the only reason I'm alive is my M16A4, I've killed men and women it ain't that bad, there's too many bad men in this world, the police aren't required to protect you, the police most likely arive in time to protect you. Oh yeah, I get all into it.

I ended up in an argument with a very ignorant liberal gun grabber in the bar one night while out with a couple of friends (that were trying to lay the moves on her friends) Two of the three females were from San Fransisco, it was quite entertaining, I was some what of the DD and getting quite bored and made several arguments that started to change her mind, I did convince her that it was her god given right to go to a shooting range and rent a gun and try it out or take a firearms class and become educated... If I wasn't married I'd probly have taken the arguer to the range the next day, (I'm not too up on takeing other women to the range) ended up buying her a beer, I told the bartender, "I want to buy this fa**et loveing, liberal hippy a beer"... imagine the bartenders face, this chick had the nerve to ask for my number, and was quite entertained with me. She had all kinds of ideas and opinions that I didn't agree with; about marrage, cars, family; you name it, I had the oposite opinion. I should have taken her to the local range, for an educational class, I'd pretty much gotten her away from the evil gun syndrome that her parents had brain washed her with.

ServiceSoon
January 7, 2007, 07:38 PM
When asked, I will give my opinion in any matter. Generally, talking about politics with new family members or people who you are trying to develop a new relationship with is a no no. I don't view it as a time to pass my agenda but rather a time to learn from others. Be polite and respectful and try to learn and teach.

Sisco
January 7, 2007, 07:41 PM
Two rules I try to observe in those situations are:
A: You don't have to attend every argument you're invited to.
B: Never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.




Notice I said "Try" to observe these two rules. I'm not always successful. :D

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