[Dave McCracken]

In the later 80s,Daughter took some sport Karate classes to improve her co-ordination(Wife's reason) and because everyone needs to know how to fight(My reason).Sport Karate is not combat training but it's a step towards same for a pre pubescent.

Her instructor wanted to learn how to shoot. We arranged an exchange of favors. He had bought a shotgun for HD, he said, and we met at a farm where we could do a bit of familiarization and training.

Anyway, on arrival he proudly uncased a nickel plated,PG only,long magazine Winchester 1300 "Defender".

Of course, it had the "Assault" sling on it and he had an ammo belt holding lots of 15 pellet, 3" mag 00. My HD 870 with its black painted wood and thin blue was downright humble looking next to it.

He noted I eyed his pridenjoy askance. On asking, I told him that the PG was a detriment in the real world,and that I hoped he had a standard stock for it.He said he did, admitted ignorance about shotguns, and said he had bought this one because "It looked like the ones on TV". The ammo had been picked because he knew buckshot was used for combat, and he figured the more the better.

Fortunately, he listened, accepted my gift of a box or two of light generic field loads, and we got down to business.

Using brown paper grocery bags on sticks and clay pigeons scattered across the berm for targets, he soon found out that it was far easier to hit with my 870 than his Hollywood Special, and doing so in short time frames.

The man was extremely fit and well co-ordinated. Despite his ignorance and Chuck Norris haircut, he learned rapidly. enjoying himself up to when he insisted on shooting some of his 3" mag 00 loads. That turned into just one round, but he wasn't damaged permanently.

At his next lesson, he had installed a standard stock and progressed well.

This is SOOoo typical. Way too many folks regard TV shows and action movies as good training aids.

Sometimes this shows in technique, the Wesley Snipes School of operating a handgun sideways for instance. Or the Pimp Style hipshooting so beloved of TV shotgun operators. I will not call them shooters, because they're not.

More often, this shows in the purchase of Cool Stuff.

Cool Stuff would include those egregious PGs, slings with built in ammo bandoliers,heat shields, bayonets, ad nauseam.

Folding stocks are borderline, some small justification exists for these in undersized or cramped transport, like compact patrol cars or Brinks trucks.But,in 99% of "Serious" shotgunning use, the standard stock's the better choice. The standard stock is also more comfortable to shoot, so people tend to practice more, and practice begets expertise.

A PG only shotgun may POSSIBLY be easier to employ by a Nam era Tunnel Rat, or those whose firefights occur only in phone booths, but I've yet to see or hear of a real world scenario where these kept a good guy alive. Since my views have been widely printed and no PG fan has come up with an actual case, the database on this must be rather small, if it exists at all.

As for the other Cool Stuff and the Cool Factor, here's a good rule of thumb to tell the difference between Cool Stuff and accessories of worth.

Shotguns are just devices to comfortably direct a cloud or clouds of shot to a target or targets.

If something enables YOU to hit a target better, faster, or more comfortably, it's of worth. Any thing else is just Cool Stuff.

Few shotguns are employed in high enough volume of fire that a heat shield makes sense. Cool Stuff.

No currently available shotgun can employ a bayonet as bayonets are used without bending that thin metal barrel. The early M-16s in Nam had that problem, their barrels are much thicker than those found on shotguns. Shotgun bayonets are Cool Stuff.

Sights YOU can use in real world conditions, PDQ, fit that Rule of Thumb. Lazers and scopes, Cool Stuff mostly.

Duckbills, muzzle brakes,flash hiders, Cool Stuff.

3 1/2" Mag shells of 0000 pellets of depleted uranium rubbed with garlic, Cool Stuff.

9 pellet 00 loads of a make and load that pattern well in YOUR shotgun, not Cool Stuff.

Ported,extended choke tubes, borderline Cool Stuff.

A standard or extended choke tube that puts the tightest pattern where you need it, not Cool Stuff.

A sling with ammo on it. Cool Stuff. Try a fast COF and learn first hand about the Pendulum Effect.

A standard carry strap sling. Not Cool Stuff.

A "Tactical" style one point sling or one that has attachment points on the side of the weapon vs the bottom,maybe Cool Stuff, maybe not if training and practice enables faster, better, SAFER use.

I imagine there's going to be some squeaks of rage from Magnumistas and more extreme gearheads.
So be it.

Anyone living nearby that strongly disagrees, get in touch. We'll shoot your course of fire for score,time decides ties, and the loser buys the coffee after. Results published on the BB here.

Questions, comments, coffee orders?

[Smoke]

Bless You , Dave.

[Rupestris]

I gotta agree with Smoke.
Dave, if you ever get to Michigan, let me know. I could use some lessons.
Rupe

[Sisco]

I used to want a PG only 12ga, just for the cool factor. Had the opportunity to shoot one at the range and changed my mind. We were shooting 2 3/4" bird shot, a 3" mag would not be any fun at all.
A young fella, about 15, wanted to shoot it. He was told to hold it low, shoot from the hip like the rest of us had done but instead held it like a handgun and sighted down the barrel. The guy that owned the gun tried to stop him but it was too late. Dental work was required.

[Snake Jenkins]

I agree Dave, my personal HD scatter is an Ithaca M37R with the 7 shot mag. tube. Nothing fancy but it works and works well.

Snake

[sm]

.

[BigG]

Jeez, Dave, I hope Skunkabilly don't read this thread. It'll ruin his whole day! :D

[Badger Arms]

Although I cannot cite a single instance where a PG shotgun has saved the day, neither can I recall a single instance where the presence or absense of a PG was noted. As for logic, there are places where a pistol grip makes logical sense and, up here, I've run into this countless times. I'll stand up at least as a devils advocate for the PG Shotgun.

In Alaska, shotguns are very appropriate for bear defense. If the bear is further than PG distance (20 feet or so) he is not a threat to your existance or at least not one that pepper spray or a warning shot won't stop. Also, if you are in Bear country without a hunting rifle, you are most likely hiking or fishing. In either of these two sports, you want the lightest, most compact system that will still be effective. I carry a PG Ithaca 37 slung over my back. I don't plan on any quick-draw action and I don't plan on being able to shoot more than 5 times. The gun weighs next to nothing and I expect that the accuracy we're talking about is point-blank rather than trying to hit paper bags at twenty paces. The first shot is going to be a warning shot with any luck. Bears often surprise their victims (or are often surprised themselves) and there is no time to present any weapon. In this case, Pepper spray and warning shots are impossible and the only things that will stop a bear are a good, close-range shot or some 'playing dead."

Transportation in Alaska is also problematic. You try to fit a full-length shotgun in a Super-Cub! You can do it, but the next time you'll probably leave it at home. Try driving a four-wheeled ATV with a long gun.

[Battler]

Dave McC - where do receiver-mounted sidesaddles fit on the Cool/Not cool scale?

For myself, I find them useful, not just for equipping the gun for an all-out Y2K zombie invasion; but to just have rounds at the ready with the gun.

They help if you want to download the mag, or leave the gun empty - and for having a few slugs at the ready.


Do you find them to be a detriment to shooting?

[DJJ]

I've seriously considered lopping the bayonet-mount ring off my 590s, then clamping a flashlight directly to the magazine tube, but it (the bayonet mount) also serves as the forward sling swivel mount. Any suggestions?

[Darrin]

Few shotguns are employed in high enough volume of fire that a heat shield makes sense. Cool Stuff. After spending about 70 rounds within an hour last Sunday, I'm getting the heat shield. Even if it only helps with the heat. ;)

A standard carry strap sling. Not Cool Stuff. Any recommendations for a shotgun newbie? :confused:

[Dave McCracken]

Wow! 80 reads in a couple hours.

Thanks for the responses.

Sisco, decades ago I fired a slug dueling style, one handed, from a PG only shotgun. It went to about 45 degrees, but I was really leaning into it. Don't try this at home.

BigG, I hope Skunk does. Good kid, but misguided.

Badger, I defer to your Alaskan experience. Smallest aircraft I've been in was a Huey, and any plane I'd have trouble getting a shotgun into would be too claustrophobic for me.

Naturally, anti bruin drills should be held while standing in fast moving ice water up to the gonads.

Battler, besides having ammo on the weapon, the Sidesaddles have one advantage Manly Men rarely talk about. That extra weight amidships takes a lot of sting away.IMO,a "Serious" shotgun should run between 8 and 9 lbs for most users. A loaded SS will make that happen.

DJJ, I'd leave it there. Light mounts aren't hard to acquire or install.

A standard carry strap type sling will do, Darrin.

[Nippy]

Wow, a lot of posts on people against the bling as the city folk would say. I figure Its their money, their home they can do what they want... I like people that have all the cool toys because I get to try them out. I think its fun.

[sm]

.

[Correia]

Amen Brother Dave! :D

There is nothing wrong with cool toys for the cool toys sake. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that the toy somehow makes you a better shooter.

70 rounds in an hour? Need a heat shield? :)

www.udpl.net/results/3-GunMatchResultsByTime-3-15-031.htm

Stage 7 consisted of 2 shotguns strings. One with 12 rounds one with 9 rounds. Stage 8 string 3 was a shotgun El Presidente with 6 in the gun, shoot, load 6. Stage 4 was 20 shots! (plus lots of movement) Look at the times on the link.

Very few of us use a heatshield, 20 shots in 25 seconds just gets the gun a little warm. ;)

If it makes you shoot better, it is good. If it doesn't really help, but it doesn't hurt, but it makes you feel better, it is okay. If it looks cool, but hurts your shooting, then it is a bad thing.

And I have never seen anybody shoot a 3 gun match with a PGO shotgun. Please, feel free to come and try! I'll be waiting, timer in hand! :D

[Darrin]

Very few of us use a heatshield, 20 shots in 25 seconds just gets the gun a little warm. Interesting. I'll postpone a heatshield until I get a little more use out of it. :)

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Whatever happened to "individual wants?"

I don't see how "cool" would make anyone more inclinated to death than "non-cool". On the other hand, lack of training...

Train with something "cool" and you can be an effective force.

Train with something "non-cool" and you can be an effective force.

Accessorize your shotgun. I don't care.

Don't accessorize your shotgun. I don't care.

But for us to go as far as to say that someone is misguided is another. Since when did we all become experts on what effectively works for anyone individual other than ourselves?

I'm an expert at what works for none other than myself. Why? I have a few years experience walking in my own shoes.

[Nippy]

Jeez, Dave, I hope Skunkabilly don't read this thread. It'll ruin his whole day!


BigG, I hope Skunk does. Good kid, but misguided.

I never heard skunk wish the same for anyone else.... I hope you take back the negative tone on those comments. Its just not cool.

[Mannlicher]

I might add: thin skin, not cool, ability to laugh and cut the fool with the rest in good natured fun, way cool.

My old '97 Winchester has the heat sheild and bayonet. Works great with that old timer. I still have two boxes of original brass case 00 rounds.

[Sir Galahad]

Dave, YOU DA MAN!!!:D If you're ever in this neck of the woods, I'll buy you a steak!

I have two shotguns, both are Winchester Defenders. One has a synthetic stock. But my favorite is the wood stocked one with a plain brass bead. (That's "Full House", by the way, so named because there's a "full house" in the serial number. That's how I knew this particular one among a couple other 1300s on display is a good one.) I'll roll cans up a steep hill with it. I'll blow cans into the air and hit them again before they drop. Went out to a wide open rifle area and shot skeet with 00 buck, missing one out of ten. Action is smooth and FAST. I buy lots of ammo and practice, practice, practice.

These days, you slap the name "tactical" on something and you can raise the price by at least 60%. Save the money and buy ammo. Shoot, shoot, shoot, then shoot some more. Then treat yourself to a good steak and a nice cigar and reflect on the day's shooting. The best "tactical" accessory is practice. Some people shoot half a box of 25 and that's practice. Well, a little practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

[Soap]

If you guys even knew Skunk you would know that he isn't a "tactical poser". If you haven't got that the whole tactical poser thing is just a part of his sense of humor by now, you'll probably never get it. So he digs a Benelli/Beretta/Emerson/Strider/HK/etc. Its not like the guy can't shoot or that he pretends to be some ninja wannabe. He probably throws more rounds downrange than most of the people on the board. He has shown the initiative to go to gun skul. But he likes Benellis instead of 870s or police trade ins, so therefore he must not be a "serious shotgunner". :rolleyes:

Frankly, I shot a lot of shotgun but I've stayed away from this forum because of comments like this. And I know a quite a few of other forumites who stay away from here as well. There is a lot of class warfare. Different opinions are not encouraged, only smashed. The whole point of these discussion boards is to learn from many other people's experiences. So let's not dog people, let's not jump to conclusions about people's approaches, let's just discuss techniques and equipment like civilized people. And please, please, no more of the "What will this do that an 870 won't do?"

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Daniel,

Rock on.

Jim

[Nippy]

I think Daniel put it right. I don't know skunk in person but I enjoy his posts and i dig his sense of humor. And he's probably introduced more people to shooting than I have which I feel is great.

Mannlicher Wrote:
I might add: thin skin, not cool, ability to laugh and cut the fool with the rest in good natured fun, way cool.

sir, you are just sad...:rolleyes: there is no need for that... If this is what the shotgun people are like. i'm done with this. I'll hit the highroad....

[Bruce626]

Daniel,

Jeez, who put the vinegar in your coffee this morning. Lighten up, already. This IS a civilized forum. Can't you take a bit of opinion?

[Andrew Wyatt]

opinion, yes. member bashing, no.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

ability to laugh and cut the fool with the rest in good natured fun, way cool

Most non-triumphant...

[sonny]

I hope nobody is serious?.......bashers bashing bashers?
I don't think anyone meant to dog anyone....I may be wrong but I don't think so.
Skunks posts are fun to read....so are Dave's......I have no reason to doubt either one of their shooting abilitys or choice of weapons......I sometimes doubt the abilities of others on this board....fact is it doesn't really matter to me....but it is fun to guess even though I'll never know the truth about everyone.
My official recomendation on this thread?....lighten up:).....or lets get it on.....whatever:confused:

[HS/LD]

Stock Winchester Defender 1300 $239

Added a standard removable sling (for use outside the domicile) $8
Added a 6 round Side saddle $32
Added a 6 round Butt Cuff (one of the good ones that doesn't move) $16

That’s it.

None of the cool stuff.

The weird thing is.... its still cool. :D

Oh and then spent several thousand dollars on ammunition, and shot the thing A LOT

HS/LD

[Dave McCracken]

First off, Duke,Nippy, et al, I've been doing the "Serious" shotgun thing since the early 80s. Trained a few hundred people to shoot effectively, some to shoot very well indeed.

A large part of Md DOC shotgun training was devised and implemented by yours truly.

Anyone can have an opinion, but informed opinions are the ones that count.

NO disrespect was intended to Skunk, he's a good kid and I like him. But,IMO, his priorities could use some self examination.That can be said of all of us, at least some of the time.

And, I'm not making a nickel or stroking my ego here. It gets old answering the umpteenth variant on questions like "What's the best shotgun for kicking intruder butt?".

I do it because I like helping people.

A very common American failing not unique to shotgunners is trying to make technology do the work of expertise. Another one is going for looks instead of substance. Shotgunners I know are a pretty good bunch of folks, and I hate to see them go wrong or get hurt.

Back to the subject....

For an extreme example, let's try this.

Over in this corner, with his back against a wall so no one can get behind him is a sleepy looking guy with honorable scars. He's been in Condition Yellow since he woke up,has trained like heck, and burns up enough ammo to improve his skills, not just maintain them.

And over here is a tyro who's used a shotgun a few times, none recently.

Give the first guy an out of box Big Four pump, the tyro something with everything possible on it.

Have them run the same COF. Who does better?

Stick them both in a crisis. Which is more likely to NOT assume ambient temperature?

Now swap shotguns. Do the results change much? Probably not.The key factor is the shooter, not the tool.

HS/LD shoots a Winchester. Larry Corriea shoots an 870. They both shoot a lot. If they swapped shotguns,once they adjusted their "Chops" to the new controls I'd expect them to shoot about the same, assuming good fit.

Daniel,870s comprise maybe 90% of the "Serious" shotguns in use today in the US.They are the standard by which other "Serious" shotguns are judged. If someone wants another brand,fine, just don't expect it to be much more effective if at all.

Mann, go shoot a few patterns at the patterning board with that marvelous old 97 at say, 15 yards. Mount the bayonet and repeat. Note the difference in POI. You COULD then spear haybales, toss a cinder block around with the bayonet, etc, and try again, but I do not want to up your gunsmith's bills.IMO, bayonets on shotguns are likely to ruin good shotguns.

I didn't start this thread to dump on anyone, or their choices. I do want to start people thinking about those choices, and maybe improving their shooting, and their life expectancy.

I do kinda wonder how many of the folks decrying me here can get on this thread and tell me right now what the trigger weight is on their goto. If they cannot,to the nearest 1/4 lb, they've proved my point....

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Dave,

I cannot and will not speak for the others that you have addressed in your post but I will speak for myself.

Personally, I felt that the entire "misguidance" issue over Skunk wasn't all that "cool". We're talking about his priorities here, and not too many of us could give a rock solid answer as to what they are.

Perhaps he truly is trying to figure out what works for him? Quite frankly, the only way to do that for some people is to try out different equipment and train. Equipment might include anything and everything under the sun from his carbon fiber oakleys to the Side Saddle on his shotgun. Skunk's also gone the distance to educate himself by attending gun "skul." Not saying that that is a feat in itself, but it's a far cry as to what most folk do (not on THR as most seem to continue their education, firearms wise) oustide of THR. Acquiring training and equipment that works for him, in my opinion is not misguidance.

I don't know about all of us, but I myself like to play with new gadgets. Do I hang them off of my shotgun or any other of my weapons? Nope. Nippy, as well as a few board members have seen my firearms and he'll be the second to say that I am not a gadget freak, myself being the first. I stick to the KISS principle. The only difference is that I decided to run a semiauto. The Win 1200 is for fun, but I keep the Benelli at the ready when I hit the sack. As to whether or not it's more effective than say, an 870 is moot. We can probably decide that with a coin toss, once the coin has landed standing straight up. However, I do know that most Remington stocks do not fit me and are too short in my opinion. I'm not a gorilla, in fact I'm just your average 5'11" (yes, I am 5'11" I just couldn't grow an extra inch...bummer), 170lb dude off the street.

Training/Software is important and I'm with you 150% on that one. In fact, it is mainly due to the now defunct TFL that inclined myself +2 coworkers to hunt for scattergun training. The class has long since passed, but I still continue to search for more training as well as improving my skills.

BA,BR,R. Couldn't agree with you more WITH the fundamentals that work, it's an asset. Shooting is not like riding a bike, it is a perishible skill.

I've been making it a habit to hit the range about once a week to work on improving my skills. Chamber loading, select-a-slug, shoot-then load, etc., even malfunction drills are done after work and after a hearty meal (Del Taco). Range time is reserved for the weekends.

The outcome to the scenario given is pretty clear cut. The cat with the most training AND the most range time will be the one I'd place money on. Pretty much a no-brainer.

This thread was intended to get people thinking about their choices and I have no problem with that. However, many have thought about those choices and are now ready to train with their decisions if they haven't done so already. That is something that they'll have to figure out on their own (find training, that is). For us to say what works and what doesn't work for any one individual is going out on a limb. The Benelli/Remington decision for me is one such example. The 14 3/8" LOP straight stock of the Benelli suits me better than the LOP on anything that the Big 3 (I say Big 3 as I haven't played with an Ithaca, yet) offer. Unfortunately, I couldn't just figure that out from a book or a discussion forum. I had to figure that out on my own, by trying different hardware. Once I narrowed it down to the Benelli as far as operator/hardware fit, the rest were luxury items. Maybe the way I sought training wasn't the way most people would have, but I found something that works for me then found training.

It might seem from my earlier post that I was calling you out and indeed, I was. Not to be a jerk, but just to say "that wasn't cool". Like you, I'm not here to dump on anyone. In fact, I dig dialogue, but I will call some of the chiding out if I feel like it.

Jim Tuey

Oh, I almost forgot. The trigger on my serious shotgun breaks at a raunchy 5.4 lbs according to Range Masters in San Luis Obispo when I picked her up nearly three years ago. :)

[HS/LD]

Oh Lordy.

Daniel and Nippy and any of the others upset by the comments...

lighten up...

It was so blatantly obvious the tone in which the comments were made. I think we all understand the humor behind Skunks posts.

Skunk continually posts regarding the "uber tacticality" of many items. I have no problem with that and enjoy the posts.

Dave was not addressing what opinion was valid he was making a post which addresses what is necessary on a SG and what is not..

Why is it that there are never any facts any more? But rather just opinions.
Fact: Heat shield on a SG for home defense .... useless.
It doens't matter if you then want to go ahead and put one on. That is now personal taste.

Dave, I believe, was simply trying to educate thoses ignorant souls as to the FACTS about serious shotgunning.
Unfortunately there are people that have been misinformed and attach a bayonet or a heat shield thinking it will help. Dave was educating, thats a fact.

Those who have immediately attacked have demonstrated once again their knee jerk reactions to anything that casts doubt on their positions. You jump up in defense of Skunk and he probably couldn't give a damn.

No wonder the US has a problem with the Politically Correct Police.

We don't need them in the shotgun forum.

HS/LD

[BigG]

No. I never knew Skunk was pulling our legs! :uhoh: Gee, thanks for the sensitivity guys. :scrutiny: And Skunk, seriously, if your feathers are ruffled (or should I say fur?) at my little attempt at humor, I apologize.

[Correia]

I've read Dave's posts here and on TFL since he first started. I've never seen him be a snob in any way, shape, or form.

Take the comment about Skunk as it was probably intended. Dave was teaching corrections guards how to shoot before some of us were born. If he has a strong opinion, good for him. Those strong opinions have helped many of us learn to shoot better.

So lets all lighten up.

[Dave McCracken]

Duke, I'va hunch that if this was taking place face to face, we'd BOTH be communicating better. Nuances, tone and body language are big parts of dialog that we miss in Cyberland.We may be closer than first glances might indicate.

The problem with new gadgets is they cost money.
None of us have unlimited funds available for trying out stuff. The resource here can help folks get proficient, have fun, and be able to protect themselves, their families and communities better.

Maybe my approach boils down to train first, then tweak.

BTW, if you take about 1.5 lbs off that trigger, IMO, you'll do better, but if it works for you....

Here's the stats,IIRC....

HD 870, 3.5 lbs.

Backup HD, 4lbs, 2 oz.

Frankenstein, 3 lbs, 11 oz.

870TB, 3.75.

My Midway catalog shows some folding stocks for about the same as a trigger job goes for hereabouts.

If you've the money to spend, which should someone go for?

[PlumberjimC]

Like so many other things in life, including guns, the KISS principle rules.

Keep
It
Simple
Studid (NO offense meant to anyone!)

[Nippy]

The lack of facial expression, body gestures etc. don't help in the communcation.

But, Contents of the posts are pretty obvious though.... by the responses to the response. If you get that good for you, if not BA/UU/R

shoot safe have fun.
later
George

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Dave,

The two of us might have more in common than we think. Or we might not. Who knows? Like you said, if I were there or you were here or if we were "there", I'm sure that there'd be absolutely no misunderstandings. Bids, deals, job offers, etc. are always best done in person, sealed with a handshake. I think that the "dialogue" here is no different.

A good clean trigger break could help some of us shotgunners out or it might not even make a difference IF we were all taught and exercise good trigger control. Like most of us would say, that's software and not hardware, right?

So what is it really? Software or hardware? Either, or? Both? None of the above? I'd have to lend towards "both" with a heavy emphasis on software. When I say "heavy" I mean just that.

As to the issue of unlimited funds goes. Trust me. I know. I've been toying with various shotguns (friends, family, range folk) for quite some time now and that is how I settled on what I use as my serious shotgun. Finally found something that was bossanova in my hands and went with it.

Here's a thought. What if someone is into shotgunning for the big bang? What if appropriating toys is their passion? I've met quite a few gun enthusiasts that aren't in it for prolonging their lives. I guess it really boils down to whatever turns their cranks.

The resources here are great, and I don't think I slammed any of them? Heck, I didn't even know what a dram was till you began a thread concerning the term. You even went as far as defining the history of the term. Also, another member's thread concerning speed loading & 3gun competition was informative. Could they help us? They might or might not. Sort of an issue concerning "pick and choose." Nonetheless, the information is out there, it's just up to the individual to figure out what works for them.

The forum members have been great with helping folks out when their scatterguns are giving them heartache. I'd never have known to look for an 870 with the Flex-Tabs if it weren't for Intel6 and company. Not that I'd actually go out and buy an 870. ;)

Jim

[Soap]

Dave- You know why I respect you Dave? You know what the heck you're doing. You know your shotguns and how to use them effectively. Thus, I'm not trying to bash you, there is absolutely no offense intended. But Skunk is a personal friend of mine and he never asked for your coaching. I find no problem with your opinions but I simply find that other opinions are completely strangled in this particular forum. If a guy wants to shoot a Perazzi, he might not beat you, but that doesn't mean he isn't enjoying his butt off trying to do it. Or if Skunk wants to shoot a Benelli semi, who cares as long as he trains with it? I think that Jim sums up my sentiment here:

This thread was intended to get people thinking about their choices and I have no problem with that. However, many have thought about those choices and are now ready to train with their decisions if they haven't done so already. That is something that they'll have to figure out on their own (find training, that is). For us to say what works and what doesn't work for any one individual is going out on a limb.

HS/LD- I don't have my panties in a bunch about this at all. I simply felt there was a small issue here that needed to be addressed. As far as having heat shields and bayonets and such, Skunk has a Sidesaddle on his Benelli. There aren't any layzars, phasers, or windspeed indicators on any of his guns. So it's black, and it's uber-tactical, who cares. BTW- I respect the fact that you've taken the time to shoot your shotgun so much. Many people don't, and hearing about someone doing it is refreshing.

[Dr.Rob]

Cool is hitting your target.

And darn it Dave I thought thost trench guns looked wicked!

Still, my 870 is free of doo-dads, other than a magazine extension, and a barrel clamp/swing swivel mount.

Stay safe.

[Sir Galahad]

First off, what Dave McC already FORGOT will take most people a lifetime to learn. But he's here, sharing his knowledge with us totally for free. I wish he's write a book. I'd be first in line to buy it. Dave McC is the kind of guy I'd like watching my back any day. I have learned lots from Dave here. If Dave says something, he says it from experience. He knows whathe's talking about. He's not saying it to assert some kind of alpha male dominance here. He says it because he cares about the folks on this forum. If he didn't care, why would be give a :cuss: if someone is doing something that might cost them crucial seconds in a gun battle and, ergo, their life? He says it because he cares. If you don't want to listen or think you have a better idea, fine. But Dave wants to share what he has learned years back while some folks were still in Pampers. Just because someone has been a "gun skul" for a few days does not trump decades of working experience. Nor does it even equal that. Sorry. I saw guys go through army basic training and come out and a few months later after AIT, completely forgot how to use their weapon. Am I biased in favor of Dave? Yes, I am. The man has given me a lot of help on this board and over at TFL. He is patient and takes time to answer everyone's question. Geez, if the man had a dollar for every time someone came here to ask "What's the best load for home defense" and "What's the best shotgun for home defense?", he could buy a 75' yacht and sail the Carribean for the rest of his life sipping margaritas and smoking Cohibas. But he takes the time to answer each one of those questions. Why? like I said, because he cares. You don't find men of Dave's excellent character everywhere. So, the man has a right to say what he thinks is best. He's not "bashing" anyone. He's offering darn good advice.

[Dave McCracken]

A couple things...

I didn't bring up Skunk's name. Someone else did. When he did, I responded because of how I felt. Software is much more crucial than the hardware, and Skunk's always come across to me as having a different mindset. One that could possibly affect his life expectancy, and dammit, I have a great personal investment in seeing the good guys win.

The Cool Factor,in my possibly biased but heavily reality based experience, can and does get the wrong people killed.

Duke, check your PMs.

Dan, no strangling is intended. There's a variety of opinions shown on every thread, including mine.

If someone wants to shoot a Perazzi, OK. But if he takes that thing, stuffs it with fletchette loads, shoot sit form the hip only and regards same as the epitome of a HD tool, I feel obligated to publicly differ, and state why I do.

And I'm walking away from this....

[Sir Galahad]

I've never seen any opinions strangled here. I feel like this forum is a comfortable chair on the front porch, and we're sitting here smoking Marsh Wheeling cigars and sipping ice tea, just talking shotguns after a mess of fried catfish. Best thing I ever did was listen to Dave on some things. That's why we're siting here on the front porch. To learn. And to have a little fun. And some of what we learn here just may save our lives one day. For that, I say Thank You Dave for everything.

[sm]

First off I pulled (edited) my 2 posts for a reason. I'm 48, hardheaded, and have my opinions. I grew up poor, and have learned some life lessons that stuck.

I will be the first to admit; " I ain't that smart". This comes from a bunch of oldtimers (respectful use here) whom said and reminded themselves- "The older I get, the more I realize I don't know".
Yeah buddy-20/20 hindsight is great-ain't it.

I care about safety. I take it serious-again life experiences. I will tell, share, anything I know that I believe that will keep somone safe. Anything. I will share my life experiences, mistakes, granted, some are painful, embarrassing.

Though I'm still learning, I used to assist in teaching. CCW students, armored car guards, security guards. I learned as much from them as I could. I also passed along the stuff for competition given to me to new shooters. To keep it-give it away.

"Mistakes are a great learning tool--just a bunch less painful, and less expensive if someone else's"

I don't know everything. I still learn. I have learned a lot from Dave, HS/LD, HSMITH, Larry, Gelhaus...many others. I respect the life experiences they share, input advice.

So yes we sit on the porch, agreeing to disagree is one thing...ideas exchanged, reasons for why, for certain situations. Heck -even some things are not theory, its a given (like 1+1=2).

I would expect someone to call me If I ever give a misguided view-and would respect them for doing so.

Ok that said--ice tea, catfish,cigars, porch sittin...ok where's the fried apple pies and ice cream guys...or was I supposed to bring that...OOPS...:D

See I told ya...I make mistakes...I keep telling you guys this...

[Nippy]

Hmmm, I stopped posting since people were just venting instead of addressing what people say. But...

I can't speak for anyone else but Waaay in the begining I thought something negative had been implied to Skunk. All I said was, hey now lets take back any negative tone in those comments. You can read it...

Thats ALL.

And look if somone just wrote "hey, they weren't meant to be a slant to someone. SORRY IF IT CAME OUT THAT WAY" I think I would've said 'oh, sorry I over reacted'.

I might add: thin skin, not cool, ability to laugh and cut the fool with the rest in good natured fun, way cool.

Just made me more upset. :cuss: But I guess it only made me and a few others. No one else....:( Which made me upset also...Maybe this is something only I saw.:scrutiny:

I'm not insulting Dave or anybody, nor questioning his knowldege of shotgunning in general. But for those who think I did or do, you're wrong.

I guess in the end I would've liked to seen Dave come out and say "That comment by Mannlichner was uncalled for. And I also had no intent on slanting Skunk."

Now after reading all the posts I can see that Dave meant no slant. Is all good, hmmm not really remember what made me upset. But I see Dave had no ill will to Skunk and I'd like to end my thoughts on that, for this thread, because it makes me feel better.

[Lord Grey Boots]

Getting back to the point....assuming this thread doesn't get locked in the next few minutes....

Looking at my 870.

Factory issue police folding stock (sorta cool)
Surefire front grip with light (functional)
Sidesaddle (cool, probably will remove)
Extended mag tube (functional)
Hiviz front sight (functional)
Heat shield (cool).

I added the heat shield after putting some 50 rounds through it in 15-20 minutes, and seared off my right thumbprint on the barrel.

I am thinking about dumping the heatshield and sidesaddle.
I am undecided with the folding stock. Full power loads leave a mild mark on my face from the bars on the folding stock.

I found S&B 00 buck gives a hallway wide pattern at 7 yards. Not sure if thats bad.

[Sisco]

I found S&B 00 buck gives a hallway wide pattern at 7 yards. Not sure if thats bad.

Federal 00 through my Mossberg (cylinder bore) makes one big hole at 15 yards. Not sure if thats good.

[riverdog]

I don't know Skunk, but considering his sense of humor, he's probably reading this thread wondering what the fuss is about. I've always taken his "uber-tactical" comments as a jab at the guys who have all the bells and whistles on the shotguns and don't have a clue as to how to shoot. I don't think he's particularly thin skinned, his sense of humor is too good. As far as Dave's sharing of knowledge, I get the impression that he's seen the wheel reinvented more than once and has seen the problems encountered with "stuff" hanging on a shotgun.

My 870 has been with me since the early '80's. The aftermarket folding stock is back in its box in storage. The 870 is back to factory wood and doesn't have a sidesaddle. All I've added is a single round WC mag extension.

For the longest time I actually expected it to do all the work because I never trained with it. If I'd ever needed to use it in a social encounter, I'd've gotten off one shot and forgot to pump since a second shot has never been a requirement. Every other weapon I shoot puts a fresh round under the hammer -- semi-auto rifles, semi-auto pistols and even revolvers. Bolt action rifle shooting has never been a second shot game for me. Throwing the bolt is slow and deliberate. Otherwise I'll use a semi.

So all that other shooting got me into trouble with an 870. Shooting Trap with an 870 didn't help, because again, a single round is all that's needed for Trap. I found this out shooting Skeet one day; I blew every double that came up. The next time out I'd learned. Dave threw some words my way that helped engage my gray matter.

Bottom line is that you need to train with your choice of weapon and from what I read, that's what Skunk does. Whatever his choice in the end, I'm sure it will work just fine. Dave's point is for the other 99% of us in an attempt to help us through the design of our wheel. Thanks Dave.

Editted for (lots of) typos

[Matt G]

Interesting. I agree with Dave, and yet I feel there's other options to his view.

I've a friend who bought an 870, and at my urging (years back) sent it to Scattergun Tech (a few years ago) and had a slick action/trigger job and MMC sights put to it. An already decent SG came back a thing of beauty. I advised him to leave it as it was. Of course, he gussied it up with a SureFire foregrip with pressure switch. I sneered. Cool Stuff that, worse yet, encourages you to point your weapon at anything you wish to illuminate.

But I shot it, and the SF light mount was slick and didn't interfere with the operation. It added only minor forward weight. Okay. I could deal. I just wouldn't use it. He put a side saddle and a butt cuff on it. (I'm more of a butt-cuff person; I don't like that weight and width at the receiver.) He put sling swivels on it, which hurt nothing.

All in all, a somewhat tricked-out SG, but one which could be used SERIOUSLY. The best money he spent, of course, was the action/trigger job, and then the MMC sights.

That said, I'd rather use my short 1100, even with its crappy Brownells rifle sights. (and friends, they ARE crappy. :) ) It is the antithesis of "cool", with its scratched poly-coated wood stock and short vent-rib barrel and hard (7 lb?) trigger and nothing else on it. But it's fast and dependable and will never short shuck and I love it. :)

The last tactical shotgun match I attended, I shot a plain-Jane, rather tired, stock Police 870. Hey-- that's what we use at work, so I figured I need to practice like I play. I got my CLOCK CLEANED by some guys with Kewl Stuff on their tricked-out shotguns. Now, most all of those guys would have kicked my tail with the very 870 I brought to the match, too. But some of them had some very slick Bennellis and 11-87's and even 1100s., and made a mighty good case for them. These were guys shooting 00 buck to reliably knock down the plates, with nothing more on them than open sights. It was hard to argue with their successes, given that they beat me in well-designed matches. (Most hung nothing overtly silly off their S.G.s, and NO ONE with a folding stock was a contender, nor were even very many PG stocks showing up among the contenders.)

[Mannlicher]

Nippy,

Get a grip fellow. My comment about being able to laugh with a joke was just that, a comment. I don't know you, Daniel or the person that calls himself the Skunk. I was not going to reply when you first flew off at me, but since you mentioned it twice, it appears that remark got under your skin. Don't be so darn sensitive. No offence was intended.

And Dave, That old Winchester shoots just fine.
:p For it's intended purpose, it may have made sense to mount the steel on it, but I agree, I don't plan to storm any enemy held trenches this week. I see your point about possible barrel damage if you stuck the Heinie and applied sideways pressure.

Going to shooting schools, and training night and day to gain tactical skill and expertise is ok for those whose jobs or careers call for that kind of thing. It's great of you just want to do it for the heck of it too. I am comfortable with my training and practice over almost 50 years of shooting. I am confident of my abilitys, and cognizant of my shortcomings. While not a trained expert, I do feel I am able to protect me and mine. Probably won't use that darn '97 though. :D

[Sisco]

Here's one for the "Not cool" list:
Pissing matches between strangers on internet forums that distract from the useable information people who visit such forums seek.
Internet forum rule #1) "You don't have to attend every argument you're invited to."
Just my 2 cents worth. Spend it anyway you want.

[dport]

Well you guys have gone and done it. I've been lurking here since this site came online and I've avoided joining because I'm already a member on too many forums. However, I like this dedicated forum to my favorite weapon, the shotgun.

Since I've been lurking I've noticed a bias. You would think the bias would be from the guys who spend a good deal of money on a semi-auto against the guys who tend to spend less on a pump gun. I've noticed the opposite. Semi-auto owners tend to be labeled as guys who rely on equipment not training(there is some validity to this point I don't have to spend a lot of time training to practice follow up shots). Some of us actually like shooting and for whatever reason prefer a semi to a pump. Heaven forbid if you buy a Benelli, and you're really a spoiled rich kid if you bought a M4S90. At least that is my perception. Like I said I've been reading this forum for a while now.

Dave has given a lot of great advice on this forum and I'm very appreciative of his generosity and experience. I'm very thankful for all the knowledge I've gained by reading the many contributions to this forum from the many members who post here. Thanks to all of you for saving me money buy reviewing products on this forum.

Now back to the original subject what's cool/not-cool on a HD shotty.
COOL:
A tac light-standard doctrine in my house is for me to go and investigate any bumps in the night with a Glock and flashlight. The wifey takes a cover position in the bedroom, and covers the door with the shotty. She had better light me up for positive ID as I enter the room.
Extended mag-no such thing as too much ammo. If that means you have to get rid of the PG stock to get more capacity then do it.
side saddle-depends on the make of the gun and how its installed. If it makes your gun unrealiable then ditch it. Otherwise, I prefer it to a butcuff. It's handier and if you have to use your weak hand it doesn't get in the way like a butcuff does.
optics- if you can afford a mepro M21 then do it. But do not rely on a sight that requires batteries. Yes our troops used battery powered red dot optics successfully in the last war, but Mr. Murphy is alive and well. Really, only valuable for longer range engagements(see below).
sights in general-a bead should be enough, ghost rings are almost a quick, and rifle sights can give you a sight picture consistant with your pistol. However, IMO, your HD shotty should fit you well enough that you shouldn't have to use sights from 10 yards in. Usually, that means ditching the PG stock and getting a standard stock. Then cutting it down or adding to it to give you a natural length of pull.
A semi-auto-yep you may be able to shuck shells faster than I can pull the trigger of my Benelli, but can your significant other? My last assignment made me responsible for ensuring my people were trained on the shotgun. We could not devote much time to the training and the qualification course that was directed consisted of 10 rounds of 00buck. Could those individuals given that conscript-like training successfully employ a pump shotgun under stress? My guess is at least 40% would short-stroke it under stress. I'd wager another 30% would forget to work the action at all. My organization set these individuals up for failure because we inisisted on issuing a pump gun, IMO. Why? Because the pump can take the abuse of being issued out to someone for a shift then sit in the armory with little or no maintenance and be issued out again to be abused on another shift, and we don't have to worry about whether or not the gun will work come qualification time. Yep the pump is one reliable gun(the guns in question are Mossbergs), and they can take one hell of a lot of abuse. However, if I can control the abuse and the maintenance of the gun (and maintenance on a Benelli or 11-87 is really not all that much in the grand scheme of things) why wouldn't I set my wife up for success? I can drag her to the range every couple of months and force her to shoot more than the 10 rounds that was required of my people, but I don't think that is good enough to make sure she can get off that vital follow up shot with a pump if/when the need arises. A semi-auto is point and click easy for someone who may not be as trained.

Not-cool
heat shield- I still have no idea what they're good for in a shotgun other than raising its LCV(looks cool value).
sling-slings on HD shotguns tend to get hung up. Especially, if you hide the gun under the bed.
PG stock/folding stock-Personnally I find the standard stock to fit better and control recoil better than a PG only stock. Then only use I can see for a folding stock is if you are hard-pressed for storage space.
bayonet(did I spell that right)-I could see an argument IF it was a last ditch attempt to safe your life when you don't care about what it does to the barrel. HOWEVER, how many people really have proper training to use a bayonet? Not many.

[Correia]

dport, welcome to THR. Good post.

Your point about your SO is a very valid one.

I don't think that there is really that much of a bias against autos. It is just that many of the most experienced shotgunners here are pumpgunning dinosaurs. :)

[Andrew Wyatt]

SLings are important pieces of equipment to have on all of yur longarms, because there are situations where droppong your gun on the ground for a BG to pick up is a bad idea, and you need both hands free.

[dport]

I like slings for administrative carry, and tactical slings are great if you're doing a dynamic entry.
In a home defense situation I see limited value. One, it is likely to get caught when retrieving the gun for use. Two, slings can make unwanted noise. Three, in my case at least, the shotgun is for a barricaded situation. The only way the tango is going to get the gun is to come into my barricaded room. If I run out of ammo or have a malfunction I've always thought/envisioned/practiced tossing the now useless weapon at the tango, giving him more to think about and transitioning to a sidearm.

[Andrew Wyatt]

your tactics are different from mine, then.

If there's a threat around, i never leave a weapon around for the BG to grab, even if empty. he may have ammo for it.

there are situations where a HD shotgun may have to be a CD shotgun, and a sling is handy for climbing over walls and exiting windows.

i keep my slings adjusted tight, so they don't flop.