Sheep, Sheepdog or about a Feral Hog?


January 6, 2007, 10:21 PM
Mods.....I am trying to talk about our body politic and our social system. I think this piece belongs here.

We had a string a few days ago that got locked talking about whether or not we were going to get another draft.

That got me to thinking about how it is that we can only fail in our attempt to deliver freedom to the Iraqiis. They are a culture of sheep. They have no history of individual freedom. It is a foriegn thing to them.

That got me to thinking about the string from way back about the sheep, the sheepdogs and the wolves and how that string tried to 'splain to us how we (sheepdogs, we gun owners, but soldiers and leos mostly) were so heroic because we didn't run from danger and we were resolved to help our fellow citizen in denial.

The sheep. The liberals. The anti types.

I put a link to the site where the story was printed........That ejectejecteject guy that is such a good neocon writer from Hollywood. It's long and it's mostly related to post Katrina happenings and if there are any here who haven't read it, it might be worthwhile.

One thing clipped from the piece.......The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog that intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. He is a good writer. Silver tongued.

With all this stuff going on about Hollis Wayne Fincher and his upcoming trial I have to ask myself......Is he a sheepdog?

If he is, why is he being attacked by the other sheepdogs?

OK, so I thunk I would try to continue the analogy and try to figger it out.

First, the sheep, sheepdog, wolf analogy is not natural.

In a natural state there is either a shepherd (real life, men, in the pecking order) or not. With no shepherd the herd of sheep would be on it's own. The sheep has been domesticated to the extent that it is probably unable to sustain itself without the shepherd's interventions. I don't know if the original domesticated sheep was bred down from like one of those Big Horn Sheep that one sometimes sees mounted on the hunter's wall or not. I suppose it's possible that the herd could revert back to the Bighorn, but it would not be without serious predation and/or attrition. If that were to happen the Bighorn could take care of itself without the need of the sheepdog.

Let us not forget that the sheepdog is really a domesticated animal that has had its predatory and pack instincts beaten out of it by the shepherd. Without the shepherd the sheepdog would eventually revert to its wolfish nature (we all know that the dog is a pack animal). Without the shepherd to feed the sheepdog and keep it under control the sheepdog would revert to wolf.

The other natural state, since man slid down a link in the food chain to become the sheep (or dog or whatever), would be one in which the next higher authority would also drop a link to fill the position of shepherd. Here we have two possibilities, the first of which would be the dieity. I propose that the creator taking the position of the shepherd would not actually work since an omnipotent being really needs no sheepdogs and could eliminate the wolf threat by decree or command.

The second likely shepherd figure turns out in my estimation to be government. Yes, .gov.

Yes, I think that works. Man becomes the sheep (or dog or whatever) and .gov becomes the shepherd. Now we can continue the analogy.

Now comes a stark reality.........The shepherd is really just a civilized wolf. Yes, the shepherd is raising these sheep to either eat or breed or milk or shear. The shepherd is not guarding this flock out of altruism. He has a plan for these sheep. He is actually in competition with the wolves for the control of the sheep.

Yes, the govt. analogy seems to fit rather well.


Do I wanna be a sheep? No. Even though history has shown us that the overwhelming majority of mankind, being a social animal (herd, tribe, clan, village, sect, fiefdom, kingdom, country, etc, etc) has been manipulated by one shepherd or another since the beginning of time. (My assumption) Perhaps one hand can count the attempts by man to actually be a free, independent people.

I suspect that our very own American Independence experience has been one of those. After the revolution and with all the free space to the west, yes, we (our ancestors) struck out on their own. Sure there were predators (Native Americans) out there, but if you look back you will see that the original Paleface type settler got along with the Indian, did commerce, whatever and it was not until .gov started taking lands and doing bad treaties that we actually had wars.

Santee Souix comes to mind. The largest mass execution to take place in our history. Google it.

Do I wanna be a sheepdog? No........a pack animal from prehistory days that has had the predatory instinct beaten out of it (In most cases, although there is the occasional throwback).

No, I don't wanna be a Wolf.

I think I wanna be a Feral Hog.

Now here we have an animal that was beaten back from it's free state, rootin' around in the woods, eatin' acorns and mushrooms and mindin' it's own business. Forced into a pen to live in it's own waste and wallow. Big tusks and a tough hide and able to take care of itself. This is an animal that if it was to escape into the wild would most likely be able to survive on it's own. Doesn't need the nanny state shepherd or the repressed wolf like sheepdog to protect it.


Yes, maybe Hollis Wayne Fincher is a feral hog.

He comes from Arkansas...........Razorbacks.

Think about it.

The original piece can be found at......

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January 6, 2007, 11:17 PM

I have often contemplated what those folks in those "near eastern" countries must think of our 188th Fighter Wing and their "Flying Razorback" patch. I'm sure they must really like that. :evil:

I think you're closer with your feral hog analogy than the "sheep-sheepdog-wolf" analogy. The trouble with all analogies is that they are at best imperfect. I don't agree with everything that ejectejecteject says. It makes a nice little story, but life is a lot more complex than the way he depicts it.

We are all "wolves, sheepdogs, sheep or feral hogs" based on our life experiences at any point. The sad fact is that there are many people who are comfortable being controlled (sheep) because it gives them an easy way to slide through life. There are those who take advantage of them (wolves) because it gives them an easy way to slide through life. Then there are those who are may feel that protecting one bunch from the other somehow gives them a sense of purpose (sheepdogs).

Then there are others who want nothing to do with any of these, and I proclaim them to be the grizzly bears, no wait, the tigers. Or maybe the storks? (See how ridiculous this can get?) :D

ejectejecteject tells a nice story, but it don't necessarily match up with reality. I, for one, never took it too seriously.

January 6, 2007, 11:29 PM
At first glance I thought I was going to dislike the article and think the author stupid. I really dislike the analogy that gunowners are somehow protectors of everyone else like LEOs or the military. It sounds so mall ninjaesque to me.

But after reading the article I like the idea of the feral hog. However I feel that to be one perhaps we need to kill the shepherd first. This way we are free to roam and be back in our natural state.

Also to add a little humor... when I first saw the title I thought it said "Federal Hog."

January 7, 2007, 01:31 AM
I really dislike the analogy that gunowners are somehow protectors of everyone else like LEOs or the military. It sounds so mall ninjaesque to me.
I agree with you insofar as the protection of everyone else goes. However, a gunowner who carries and is out and about with at least one loved one--child, spouse or partner, aged parent, etc.--is akin to a sheepdog protecting his/her flock.

January 7, 2007, 01:39 AM
The whole "sheep, coyote, sheep dog" thing is the biggest bunch of tendentious horse crap I have seen since I last surfed over to Faux News. What does it do? It makes you and me prey, meat, stupid in their eyes and ours.

Cops not only enforce law, the are the Law because, well, the rest of us are sheep. Not only that, the mindset encourages them to act above the law because how could rules for sheep possibly apply to dogs? Sheep defend themselves? It's unnatural. It's just wrong. Sheep with fangs? It just shouldn't be.

We're not dogs, although we've bred dogs to be kind of like us. We're not sheep. We're not cats. We're not pangolins, marmosets, giant squid or Tokay geckos. We're human beings. We're a lot like the apes whether you reach that impression from science or from saying that the Almighty re-used some successful design elements when He made us.

That means that we can behave in many different ways as circumstances demand. Every member of the troop has some responsibility for its common defense. You may be bigger than me and have higher status, but we are all in it together, and with another turn of the Wheel you might be the one who needs to be rescued from the leopard.

January 7, 2007, 02:28 AM
The comparison of behavior between animals and humans is appropriate. Sheep fear the canines of both sheepdogs and wolves, even when the former are protecting them from the latter. Similarly, whether it's the guns of criminals, police, or armed private citizens, human sheep fear all three. They believe more guns make them less safe.

Back in the days when we humans were dodging Smilodons, humans knew they were potential prey. No one needed to tell their neighbor to start living in Condition Yellow. It is only in recent human history that so many humans choose to leave their own safety to that of others.

This thread demonstrates the sheeple mindset, and it goes far beyond matters of self defense.

Finally, whereas a woolly ruminant quadruped sheep doesn't have the option of donning a set of canines or the luxury of mail ordering a stainless steel hoof mounted switchblade from Modern Sheep magazine, human sheeple have a great many options for protecting themselves and their loved ones.

January 7, 2007, 02:36 AM
I think the whole problem is that the sheep, sheepdog, and wolf thing is an analogy:what: It still has a bearing on the world when you think in terms of the analogy. But literally any anology is wrong in the literal sence:barf:

January 7, 2007, 02:41 AM
Does this mean that analogy science is literally wrong?

January 7, 2007, 04:13 AM
No Ken, it means that the analogy is full of holes. It's not terribly useful. It doesn't represent reality. And it debases sheep like you and me who strap on our popguns and pretend to have teeth You don't carry tin and you don't do crime, so you must be a sheep just like almost everyone here.

Don't like the implication? Don't buy into it.

Like the analogy? You're one of the cud-chewing herd.

I happen to think that I'm a man, not something that walks on four legs.

January 7, 2007, 01:49 PM
The whole "sheep, coyote, sheep dog" thing is the biggest bunch of tendentious horse crap I have seen since I last surfed over to Faux News. What does it do? It makes you and me prey, meat, stupid in their eyes and ours.

Sorry, Mr. tellner, I didn't mean to set you off. Sometimes the analogy is used to help some of us understand. I, nor the ejectejecteject guy meant you no harm, I am sure.

Just as an aside.......this "tendentious horse crap" thing. You are being metaphorical, I hope. :p

January 7, 2007, 05:35 PM
I'm sorry to have let the button be pushed. It comes from some bad experiences with cops over the years who "explained" why I shouldn't have guns. And why women can't defend themselves. And why they are "the modern knights". It all came down to "There are three classes of people. There's the criminals. You just aren't capable of dealing with them. There's the 'civilians'. That's you. You're a walking victim. Then there's the cops. We're the warriors, the protectors. We're your only hope."

I've heard it so many times over the years from so many cops and police trainers that it just pisses me off.

The Cavalry
January 7, 2007, 07:19 PM
Back when that analogy was still pretty fresh, I asserted that it was missing a role.

The .mil and LE fall pretty cleanly into the sheepdog model to varying extents, but an armed citizen really doesn't. He/she lacks arrest powers, a thorough knowledge of the law (in most cases), a spiffy radio to call for backup...and most importantly, he/she lacks a public commission to enforce law.

The sheep and wolf are pretty clearly aligned with their human analogs.

But the armed citizen doesn't fit into any of the three. Therefore, some people tend to add a fourth it "dog" or "feral hog" or "armed sheep with pointy teeth" or whatever. A member of the ecosystem capable of defending against the wolf, but harmless to sheep and with no specific duty to protect the overall herd. And maybe a little scornful of the sheep, too. ;)

Adding this fourth analog may also help address the occasional verbal conflict (growling and baring teeth) between some "sheepdogs" and some "dogs" when perceived territorial bounds (bearing arms) are stepped upon.

January 8, 2007, 01:40 AM
Not really spot on with the subject, but sort of calls to mind a little saying -

"No matter how benevolent the shepherd, the flock always gets fleeced."


January 8, 2007, 02:07 AM
I like analogy and use it frequently, it can make it easy to explain concepts occasionally. The sheep, sheepdog and wolf analogy is good however it
is just a broad concept. It doesn't take into account the fact the humans are allegedly intelligent. I suspect some of us might be but on average humans are just clever. However, clever or intelligent, humans are capable of making conscious rational decisions. So there is where the analogy need end. Sheep can't help but be sheep, sheepdogs can't help but do the shepherds bidding or face consequences, and wolves must be a predator to survive.

The human sheep choose their condition willingly. The human sheepdogs sometimes turn bad and become wolves. And the shepherd who is supposed to care for the sheep is busy cutting business deals for profit, fails to adequately control his sheepdog and refuses to remove the wolf from the general populace due to "social constraints". So to a great extent we are suffering due to our own narrowminded tendency to want to take the easy, profitable or simple path. The power of reason and choice should make us able to choose the correct outcome, however greed, stupidity and sloth
cause many to choose the path of least resistance. As in WWII...
We have met the enemy and he is us.

January 9, 2007, 03:21 AM

I too don't buy into the argument that cops are the only ones who can protect one--if for no other reason than the courts disagree with such a silly assertion. That said, blustery blowhards in positions of authority don't, IMHO, invalidate the analogy.

There's a chasm of difference between folks who are willing to protect themselves and their loved ones and folks who are not. No analogy is perfect, and it simply illustrates the state of mind.

Neither wolves nor sheep nor sheepdogs wear tin so your statement that we're all just sheep 'cause we don't have badges is just goofy.

January 9, 2007, 04:39 AM
Goofy? Not at all. This analogy comes from and is beloved of the police. They are the "sheepdogs". We are the sheep. It's as simple as that. It degrades us, and don't for a moment think that your CCW makes you any better in their eyes than the rest of the herd. It gives them privilege in their own eyes.

Not all police officers believe it, but enough do to make a real difference in the general law enforcement culture.

January 9, 2007, 04:53 AM
I really dislike the analogy that gunowners are somehow protectors of everyone else like LEOs or the military. It sounds so mall ninjaesque to me.Citizen gun owners certainly don't protect everyone else's safety. However, armed citizens are the ONLY ones protecting freedom in the US.

An out-of-shape guy with a beer gut (I'm not describing myself, by the way :)), a FAL, decent shooting skill, and a burning desire to protect the Bill of Rights is far more important to maintaining freedom in the US than any ten highly trained SpecOp soldiers. Why? Because the latter serve the government and will generally do as they're told, even if that means violating the Constitution (look at how Delta Force was present at Waco, at least in an advisory capacity). The former serves the Constitution.

The military and police do NOT defend freedom except insofar as some might ally themselves unofficially with armed citizens. For the most part, the military and especially the police are the primary danger to freedom, since they take orders from the government and will seldom disobey. Notice how the National Guard was used to confiscate weapons in New Orleans after Katrina. (It's disgraceful that people didn't resist.)

30 cal slob
January 9, 2007, 07:14 AM
i'm not so much a sheepdog as i am a weasel with large fangs.


January 10, 2007, 03:36 AM
This analogy comes from and is beloved of the police. They are the "sheepdogs". We are the sheep.

Just call me homo arma.

Not all police officers believe it, but enough do to make a real difference in the general law enforcement culture.
It's better in some areas, but that only means it's worse in others.

Maryland where I grew up is awful. There's two kinds of people with guns there--cops and criminals. That's a prevailing attitude among LE there, and some in government are working to make it the law.

Out here, Seattle PD upper ranks are notoriously antigun, but then so is the City Council. Locals, not so much in my experience. "Officer, I have a license to carry, and I do have it on me." "OK, just don't go messing with it."

Don't even wanna think about the field proctologic exam one would have to undergo if one were legally carrying in Maryland during a traffic stop.

January 10, 2007, 04:02 AM
Does Maryland have any redeeming features?

And I prefer to think of myself as a giant cane toad. I eat anything smaller and poison anything larger than me :)

January 10, 2007, 06:28 AM
Does Maryland have any redeeming features?
Yes, but I'm a foolish, glass half full, optimist.

Four seasons of weather, right next to D.C. and the treasure chest of monuments, Ft. McHenry, the Bay Bridge, historic battlefields, Ocean City (and the whole Eastern Shore for that matter), the Naval Academy, Beretta and the Redskins.

Maryland also has both Route 40 and Route 50. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Route 66 is the Mother Road, but 40 and 50 both went coast to coast.

Kali Endgame
January 11, 2007, 12:36 AM
The analogy is missing a defense only animal. A skunk has no real attack capabilities and defends itself. Therefore, it is not a Sheepdog or a sheep, but an independant self-suficient animal. Lastly, the sheepdog nor the sheep like the skunk because of its self reliance and noncompliance with group thought.

January 11, 2007, 01:07 AM
"This better be one stupid cat."

January 11, 2007, 10:44 AM
A skunk has no real attack capabilities and defends itself.

Somebody should tell that to the chicken farmers.

No, although the hog is an omnivore I do not think of it as a predator. It could be happy just eating acorns and mushrooms (and the occasional atf agent, :D thanks to Mr. Ross).

Why are youse guys trying to change my perfectly good addended analogy?

Kali Endgame
January 11, 2007, 11:19 AM

I guess I missed the point about it being your analogy. I thought you wanted suggestions for other animals to portray the gun owners. Sorry about highjacking your thread.

January 11, 2007, 11:32 AM
Sorry Mr. Endgame, I meant no offense.

It was bad enough for me to accept the analogy of being a swine.......but now a skunk? :eek:

January 11, 2007, 11:54 AM
How about a badger, then? Doesn't eat sheep. Has sharp pointy teeth. Mostly wants to be left alone.

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