[Matthew T.]

This goes back to the old argument of complete penetration for bigger blood trails or having the bullet expend all of its energy within the game animal.

Is using a heavier bullet for deer in a light caliber like .243 or .25-06 sort of working against the natural strengths of the calibers themselves? In other words, the only thing these calibers have going for them ballistically is a slew of velocity. As much of that velocity as possible needs to be transferred into energy while the bullet is within the animal. Would using 100 grainers in .25-06 or 85 grainers in .243 provide enough weight for sufficient penetration to reach the vitals while expending most of their energy in the deer?

Does any of this make sense or am I just free associating?

['Card]

Personally, 100% energy dump and maximum tissue damage mean more to me than penetration. I hunt in really rough, thick, rugged terrain, and any blood trail is too much of a trail in my opinion. I've lost deer that I knew I hit, and I have no intention of going through that again. I'm willing to sacrifice a little venison if it means "the hunt stops right here and right now".

Of course, because of the terrain I mentioned, and the fact that I rarely encounter shots over 100 yards, I use a 180-grain .30-06 in a semi-auto rifle the vast majority of the time. So I'm probably not the right guy to be offering advice about .243's.

[rbernie]

I can't predict what bones might be in the way for any given shot, or what path the bullet fragments might take in the wound cavity. I prefer to plan for the worst, and run a bullet of reasonably heavy weight for caliber and of reasonably robust construction. If it exits - that's OK. My concern would be that if the bullet didn't exit, it may not have expended it's energy in the right places (e.g. blew up early and left a nasty surface wound).

Is using a heavier bullet for deer in a light caliber like .243 or .25-06 sort of working against the natural strengths of the calibers themselves? In other words, the only thing these calibers have going for them ballistically is a slew of velocity. Actually, what these chamberings have going for them is high BC bullets - not raw velocity. A bullet of reasonable construction and a SD of, say, .240 or better is a good way to ensure that these smaller calibers can perform well on all sorts of light-skinned game...

I find nothing wrong with hunting deer with a 117gr 25-06 or a 100gr 243.

[jmorris]

It has been my experience that bullet construction has more to do with a bullets ability to penetrate than weight and/or velocity. For example, a 140g Nosler partition at 2250fps has better penetration than a 180g power point moving 2800fps. There are a lot of choices out there between an FMJ and hollow points. I would rather have more penetration vs. not enough.

[Spinner]

I'd say the biggest problem with using a 85gn projectile in a .243 is that the lighter bullets are meant for varmints. The light construction of the projectiles means that they're more likely to rapidly expand without a reasonable degree of penetration to cause critical tissue damage.

Spinner

[mete]

Energy never killed anything .What you need is to penetrate into the vitals and damage them .For those who want the bullet to remain in the animal - does that mean a broadside shot ? With or without hitting ribs or shoulder ? quartering away shots ? I'll take penetration so I don't have to worry about what shot I take .You can get both of course if you use something like a Nosler Partition !!

[ithacalover]

I agree. If you're using a lighter calibre, just go with the partition. The best combination of expansion and penetration.
I came across a moose hunter in Northern Newfoundland who used exclusively a .243. Ammo was limited up there, however, and I'm liable to assume he used a 100 grain Power Point.

I concluded he was a hell of a shot, but I had new-found respect for the cartridge after that!

[dakotasin]

100 grainers out of a 25-06 will exit a deer.

after a few deer, i settled on the 120 sierra gamekings as being the best for me in the 25-06. high bc's for the long shots, and good thump for when they get there at whatever range.

after a few deer, i no longer own a 243.

[Art Eatman]

My experience with the .243 on four or five body-shot deer, and maybe a half-dozen coyotes: The 85-grain Sierra HPBT creates a double-handfull of mush. So, a broadside impact into the heart/lung area means a dead deer, with little travel after the hit. There won't necessarily be an exit wound. For the smaller coyote, a good bit of him is spread across a half-acre.

Art

[Steve H]

I have been using the Banes X for 25-06 120gr and in 7mm (.280) the 140gr. and have had several "drop 'em where they were standing" kills. I have had only one go all the way thru and that was a shot just under the backstrap where the deer was only about 8" thick.

[bowfin]

Energy never killed anything

I agree. If your bullet goes completely through the animal, that energy wasn't wasted, it just wasn't needed. If the bullet stops before exiting, then it gets to be a scary proposition that your bullet might quit before doing enough damage.

The best scenario is for the bullet to reach full expansion as quickly as possible, and then take that expanded profile completely through the animal, making an exit wound.

[Clipper]

My shooting buddy related an experience from an antelope hunt, where a guy shot a big one with a .243 using Nosler Ballistic tips. Everything in the chest cavity was turned to soup, the bullet did not exit, in fact there were only crumbs left of it, and the animal literally folded up on the spot with it's feet underneath it.

That is why I shoot the 115gr Ballistic silvertips in my .25WSSM...

[Poper]

Personally, I prefer penetration by proper hunting bullet selection. I shot 2 deer this year. 1 with a .243 WSSM with 95 gn COmbuined Technologies Ballistic Silver Tip at 3250 fps which produced complete penetration that broke bones with a large wound channel and large exit wound that would have left a heck of a blood trail if the deer could have run farther than the 20 or so yards he did. The other was shot with a .308 with a 150 gn generic "bulk" packed bullet at 2600 fps that exploded in a large doe's lungs:; no exit wound. :eek: She ran about 150 - 200 yds. before piling up. A bullet that explodes like that, in my opinion mind you, is not properly constructed for a hunting application. What if I had been shooting a big, old, tough mulie and tried to shoot him through the shoulders? That bullet may have made a nasty mess of some hide and maybe some meat, but I'm not so sure it would have broken heavy bones. :scrutiny:

Just my 2 cents...

[griz]

To me an exit is an advantage but not a requirement. So if it's a tough shot, say quartering and through the shoulder first, I will not be too upset if the bullet does not exit. But even in those worse case situations, I want the bullet to come to a stop on the opposite side of the deer. To get that much penetration on a tough shot, you will definetly get exits on easy broadside shots. That's fine with me too. I would rather err on the side of too much penetration than too little. Unless you are using a Barnes X bullet or a Nosler Partition, I think a 243 bullet should weigh at least 95 grains.

[Vern Humphrey]

My theory is it's the hole that kills. All other things being equal, I want a big, deep hole.

Since I sometimes don't get a perfect presentation, I like to be prepared for the worst case. Consider a quartering-away shot. The "school solution" is to aim for the off-side front leg, shooting diagonally through the critter and breaking that leg. You need plenty of penetration for a shot like that.

Similarly, in many cases you want to break bones -- anyone who has ever tracked an elk down into a deep canyon and packed out the meat, antlers and hide will tell you that. So I want to break an elk's shoulder and still reach the vitals.

[Pop]

I prefer accubonds.:)

[762X39]

I find this to be a funny question with lots of arguments for and against. Every deer I ever hit with a bullet died so I'm not sure I know the answer. I mostly have used a Norma 6.5 156 grain round nose. Sometimes the deer crumpled on the spot and sometimes it moved 2 metres before falling. A couple were spine shot and didn't die quickly enough (less than 20 seconds) so I shot them again when I got to about 75 metres or so but they were still anchoured. I think the answer is shot placement. If you take a poor shot it won't work. Every thing else is just compensation for the fact you didn't shoot well. The last deer I shot (I'm having a piece of him tonight for supper) I used my chinese SKS with 123 grain soft point. Caliber, weight,penetration and expansion were still irrelevant, A good shoot killed him.

Nuff Said

John H

[Vern Humphrey]

I mostly have used a Norma 6.5 156 grain round nose. Sometimes the deer crumpled on the spot and sometimes it moved 2 metres before falling.

This is, of course, a bullet and cartridge that have a reputation for deep penetration. I agree that shot placement is the key -- but sometimes perfect placement requires deep penetration, as in a quartering-away shot.

[RKellogg]

I am with 762X39 .

I remember when I was about 14 , the farmer down the street had tags to get the deer of his land . He ask my dad to come down and help him . I came too and brought my 22-250 , 55 grain sp . In a weeks time I shoot 6 to 8 deer at over 100 yards away , and not head shoots .

I have even heard of deer being killed with 22lr . :D

[springmom]

Mine went down with a .243 100 grain Core-Lokt. No exit wound, but the deer DRT and it bled considerably out of its nose because there was no left lung left when we gutted it.

It seemed to work ok for me.

Springmom

[redneck2]

I think a lot of the energy in the "energy" thing is what is used to destroy the bullet, not transmitted to the animal. Now, a .22-250 on a prarie dog would be the ultimate energy transfer, but shooting a big deer or elk is a different program.

Personally, I like something that makes them leak out both sides if I'm after big game. A hardcast Keith style .45 that punched clear thru would leave little to be desired IMO.

[Winger Ed.]

Got a buddy who isn't even sure how many deer he's killed with a .243. Best I can figure is between 15 and 20. We load him up a Nosler partition for it, and he rarely shoots anyting over 125 yards. But all of the shots were 'pass throughs', and the farthest we've ever had to track one of his deer was about 30 feet.

Redneck2 reminded me of our deer hunting trip last year.
For our anniversary a couple years ago, my wife gave me Marlin CB in .45-70. I shoot it alot- and exclusively with a cast 400gr gas checked flat point, but never took it on a hunting trip. I took it for opening day last year. I fired a 80 yard, quartering away, shot at a 8 point with it.

The shot went into the lungs/heart area on one side, and more or less blew the front leg off going out the other side. I won't use it for deer hunting any more, but the penetration/damage was something to behold.

.

[jcord]

Just use nosler ballistic tip don't worry about it.:)
I generally use heavy for caliber bullets in all my hunting loads, with one exception.

Bullets designed for deer will pass all the way through them broad side. If the bullet stops inside the animal broadside, it would not have reached the vitals if shot from the rear, quartering away. I want complete pass through from any angle.

My one exception to the heavy for caliber rule is when I use the 45-70. This rifle is intended for Bison or bear and requires a lighter bullet to work effectively on deer. I use the 300 grain JHP hornady bullet at 2100 fps from my rifle.

[chuckmo]

...Sorry, but the .243 and 6mm are proven cripplers, particularly if you're going to shoot at a big buck with a less-than-perfect shot. Or downrange where the little pills slow down and get moved about by the wind. Shot placement is critical, of course. Shoot the heaviest bullet weight you can, and a properly constructed big-game bullet. Not a ballistic tip, a partition or one of its many progeny. Of course deer have been killed with 22 LR's; does that make it a good idea?

[jcord]

Chuckmo,
The nosler ballistic tip in the heavier bullet weights is excellent on any whitetail deer.
I use the 165 grain 30 cal and have shot numerous deer with them with not one failure. I have always had an exit wound. Of course the lighter weight bullets are intended for varmits the heavier one are intended for medium game and are contructed to penetrate.

Now using a light gun and using a bullet that is too light for caliber is a bad combination. In the 243, I always used the 100 grain bullet because it was the heaviest I could find. When I grew up, I of course graduated to 30-30s and 308s and 45-70s where My bullets always exit.

[Kimber1911_06238]

I like a bullet to expand and dump all the energy, stopping just under the skin on the far side. I find that my .300 WSM with 180 grain powerpoints does this. The deer don't go far, ever.

I realize that I'm talking about a totally different caliber, but what you described should be fine for deer, no matter what the bullet does. Focus on making a good shot and whether the bullet exits or not you're gonna recover that animal.

[H&Hhunter]

Deer are extremely light skinned, light boned and easy to kill. They are more effected by "shock" than other types of heavier animals and that is why you can get away with killing so dramatically them with sub caliber poodle shooters like a .243.

However even with a deer you better be right on with your shot placement and the angles better be just right with a pip squeak 6MM because I don't care what you're shooting out of it the little guy does not have the mass and the weight to go very deep if encounters tough material like bone.

Therefore if you are going to hunt big game with 6MM use the toughest bullet with the best SD you can find. Either that or you need to be rabidly disciplined about waiting for the perfect shot presentation. And I just don’t see where that is an advantage in anyway shape or form when rifle hunting. If you want to limit yourself use a bow.

When it comes to big animals shock and energy don't mean squat. Penetration and bullet diameter/weight is the ONLY thing that matters. I've seen several cape buffalo take ungodly powerful rounds like .458 lots &.470 NE in perfect heart lung shots and just trundle off like nothing happen. They don't even hardly flinch. The only reason that they die is from bleeding out from the penetration of the bullet or a CNS disconnect.

I’ve seen hogs take a .375H&H through the lungs and not show any sign of a hit until they flopped over 100 yards down the road. I’ve also seen a hog take several .243 rounds to chest run off and not be recovered. Some animals are more prone to shock and velocity than others. I’ve seen a deer take a 100 gr soft point through vitals from a .257 Weatherby that absolutely exploded the heart and lungs and left a orange sized exit hole run into thick cover and travel for almost 200 yards before it died. I’ve seen a pronghorn take a 180gr BST through the goods from a .300 Weatherby moving at over 3200 fps. The round entered the just in front of on shoulder exited just behind the off shoulder and literally blew a bowling ball sized hole out the off size. The poor little old antelope buck turned and ran for over 100 yards with no heart of lungs left. You couldn’t have physically dumped more energy into that poor old goat yet he didn’t drop on the spot. There is NO surefire formula when it comes to velocity and expansion to guarantee an animal drops in it’s tracks. The only way to assure that is by shot placement. You want them DRT every time then hit them high and forward in the shoulder. And use a good reliable deep penetrating bullet of heavy for caliber weight.


I'll take controlled expansion, penetration, diameter and weight over macho velocity and explosive expansion any day on any big game including deer. And Ballistic tips are for tourists not for hunters.;)

The .243 should be considered the minimum for deer sized game IMO just like the .375H&H is the minimum for DG. They both are very successful killers of game but they have their limitation which need to be realized and taken into account.

[chuckmo]

JCord, I hear you. I just worried that in .243, we might be dealing with a varmint round. Thanks

[mohican]

Kimber1911_06238 I like a bullet to expand and dump all the energy, stopping just under the skin on the far side. I find that my .300 WSM with 180 grain powerpoints does this. The deer don't go far, ever.


I've never, ever heard or read anyone outside of a magazine righter talk about the bullet "dumping energy, stoppinng just under the skin".

I like an exit wound. Seems like deer just exsanguinate a littler quicker

on big deer I like to pick my shot, and try to break the front shoulders or if in range, break the spine.

I can only think of two deer I've killed where there wasn't an exit wound. One was a fat, rolly poly old doe shot with a 44 mag with a 240 grain XTP. She ran a good distance, even lung shot. The other was shot at a whopping 10 feet with a Lightfield Commander 12 gauge slug. "energy dump" was very significant :what: :D and the slug didn't get too far out of the chest cavity on the other side.

[S&Wfan]

I want a nice exit wound that really hammers the deer too.

I want it to drop straight down . . . but if it runs a little bit, I want a blood trail a mile wide.

I don't like having to spend hours tracking a deer for someone that didn't leave a blood trail.