[CZ223]

may be quite reasonable to someone else. I have read,on this and other sites, many threads about Backup guns, Bug out guns and deap concealment guns. I have read other threads that focus on caliber. If one guy thinks a 32 caliber is fine someone else says that you need at least a nine mm and the thread generally continues untill someone states that only a 45 will do. The same thing happens when someone posts "How many rounds are enough". This one usually is topped off by some one stating that he never leaves his house without his carry gun and his back up gun that will both take the same mags usually somethinglike a G23 and a G27 and 3, 15 round mags secured on his person for a total round count of 68 rounds. The same is true of home defense scenarios. Somebody out there inevetibaly has a gun stashed under every seat cushion, behind every headboard and one in every closet. Inevitably, someone calls somebody a mall ninja or Rambo or something to that effect. Why? Are some of these guys over the top? In my opinion ,yes, but I usually don't say anything because I realize that my opinion is just that, an opinion. I personaly don't feel the need for anything more than my G23 on my hip with a spare on my belt. My god, I must be insane only 27 rounds of 40 short and weak? What was I thinking? Obviously I am being sarcastic here. If someone thinks that they need a doublestack 45 on his waist with a shorter version of the same gun on his ankle and 60 rounds of spare ammo on his person, fine. Remember, to probably 80% of the rest of the people in this country we are all crazy just for owning guns. Lets stop eating our own.

[CNYCacher]

Let's stop eating our own.
Agreed.

It is all relative. For me, I think carrying a backup mag is overkill, but I would never make disparaging remarks about someone who thinks it's the only way to go.

Now, if you start raggin on me because IYHO I am unprepared with my lack of BUG or extra mags, we are gonna have an issue.
When I get my carry piece, it will be 10+1 .45ACP, but I recognize the fact that the guy carrying a 2-shot .22LR derringer is light years ahead of the average sheeple.

[Biker]

I carry a 5 shot, .45LC snubbie (no re-loads) with the occasional .380 or .38 snubbie in a hip or vest pocket. I figure I'm good to go with just my .45LC, but every once in awhile, I'm wrong.;)
The .45 is on my ankle every waking moment of the day. I calculate that those 5 rounds of .45LC will get me outa just about any trouble that comes my way. If not? What the hell, everybody gotta die of something.

Biker:)

[Lonestar.45]

I agree with the sentiment.

But, it's the errornet. Lots of wannabees out there. Funny though, when the time comes for the "post your carry piece" threads, most of the Rambo's carry gear looks brand spanking new. Not well worn like it's carried 24/7 like they claim. These days I ignore the tacticool crowd and just go with what works for me, whether that's just a Kel-Tec in the pocket with no backup (*gasp*!), or a Kahr PM9 IWB that according to the "experts" is supposed to break apart and jam on every other round.

[TIMC]

I carry a Para C-645 with one 6 round mag and no spares. I don't live in a bad area or go where I shouldn't. I don't feel the need for multiple mags, if there are that many targets that I need 50+ rounds I'll probably get shot anyway before I could reload! If I'm going some place that is that bad I just load this in the back of my truck. One 200 round belt can take care of most problems within 500 yards.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/Mvc-001f.jpg

[DMK]

Those who are conservative by some, are considered zealots by others. This is true in every discipline.

While you are pointing fingers and laughing at somebody, someone somewhere is doing the same to you.

While friendly advice is fine and even honorable, it's best not to judge others. Just do what you think is best for you and leave others to do the same.

[TIMC]

While you are pointing fingers and laughing at somebody, someone somewhere is doing the same to you.

And the freedom to do that is what makes this country great!

[Werewolf]

I'd bet a lot of guys here were in the Boy Scouts and the Boy Scouts teach one to always be prepared. In light of that I imagine that some folks preparedness requirements are just higher than others.

Besides, as it has been mentioned here many times before, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

[romma]

Generally speaking, handguns are poor man stoppers... Of course .223 round is innefective for a rifle round and the .308 is to much penetrating That's why we should just walk around with our hands in the air in surrender mode. Seriously, there will be risks with whatever we carry if the SHTF. .32 or less is last ditch in my opinion, and that is what I carry 75% of the time.

[CZ223]

That is just plain cool! I want one. I can't afford to feed it but I would like it none the less.:D

[Mainsail]

Does anyone else think it’s silly to go to all the trouble of building a bug-out bag, buying thousands of dollars of combat gear, and bragging about how fantastic their $1800 1911 is, while neglecting the really important aspects of survival like health and physical fitness? I get weary of the endless tripe about how my 9mm is not going to drop the bad guys in firefight, from a guy who is easily 100+ pounds overweight or couldn’t survive six hours without a cigarette.

[Mannlicher]

Whether to carry or not, and what to carry are fairly personal choices. I don't care what others are packing. Personally, I think all of us should be armed, but thats my opinion.
One gun or three, no reloads or an ammo can full, hey, its all good.

[MD_Willington]

I carry a 9mm a S&W 9mm, if it was good enough for LEO work then it should be good enough for me, I could afford it with the $$$ I had on hand, and for the most part all I have ever shot is 9mm.

So for me, I'm going with something that is familiar, affordable & dependable to me.


At the same time I'm open to other calibers and platforms, I enjoy the diversity of equipment and the company of fellow enthusiests from all walks of life.



Let's stop eating our own.


Another big +1 to that, we need to stick together ;)

[Manedwolf]

Does anyone else think it’s silly to go to all the trouble of building a bug-out bag, buying thousands of dollars of combat gear, and bragging about how fantastic their $1800 1911 is, while neglecting the really important aspects of survival like health and physical fitness? I get weary of the endless tripe about how my 9mm is not going to drop the bad guys in firefight, from a guy who is easily 100+ pounds overweight or couldn’t survive six hours without a cigarette.

Yes.

Sorry, harsh truth, but if you need a size XXXL tactical vest, you're not going to survive long after any significant disaster where physical exertion is required.

All it takes is reading any of the many accounts of the wheezing obese sorts (written as "large man", usually, in the articles) who couldn't make it down the tower stairs on 9/11, and were spotted gasping on landings by the people who DID make it out.

Or people who wore out quickly and couldn't swim to the edge after a flash flood and got swept away, or...

Point being, your body is the first weapon and tool of defense you're issued in life. I can't fathom cleaning and polishing your gun, but not keeping the body in good condition.

[pharmer]

Been carrying a SW 6906 w/ 12 rds in it since '94. Before that, a SW 60 or 65 with 5 or 6 rds. If I need a reload, I'm in deeper stuff than I should be. Joe

[Sharps-shooter]

I seldom carry anything. So far, this hasn't been a problem.

I hold nothing against people who carry whatever they want. I think it's kinda cool that somebody might have three guns on them and another in the truck. But I don't do it myself, much.

I knew a guy that was a mercenary back in the day. He fought with Che Guevarra in Cuba, Africa, South america, and also was in various other engagements. Later on, he owned hundreds and hundreds of guns, basically had his house wallpapered with them. Some real beauties, too, and at least two registered machine guns. Someone shot him dead, in his own house. He opened the front door, and got a faceful of lead, from a man he didn't know, over an incident that happened 20 yrs. before.

Can't plan for everything, I guess. And like Biker said, you gotta die of something. He enjoyed his guns while he had them, and I don't think he ever regretted any of it. So it wasn't a waste, really, it was just his way, and for him it was all well and good, right up until the buckshot hit.

What's over the top is when someone feels compelled to buy more guns than they want or can afford, because they think they need them more than they actually do. I think people should just relax and enjoy their gear, as much as possible.

[Hemicuda]

when I carry a semi auto, I carry a spare mag, not so much as a reload, but for the fact that MOST feeding problems in Semi's can be traced to the mag... and just because it the mag worked last time, doesn't mean the mag will right now...

I also keep a mag of FMJ for it in my car, in case I need to dispatch an injured animal... (why waste good carry ammo?)

now, when I carry the 5-shot .38 Snubbie, I keep a Bianchi SpeedStrip reload (full of LRN ammo) handy in my watch pocket... mainly for dispatch of injured animals...

you'd be surprised how often I see car-hit deer flopping around... with a FUBAR car parked nearby and some inept individual trying to figure out what to do...

[kb2iaw]

Im fairly new to this scene of conceled and carry, iand i dont mean this post to irratate any one or flame any one . But i often wonder what the age of the posters are ,(im 69) what there background is why is it nessarry to pack so many guns ??where do they go ,that they feel so insecure . (again no disrespect) Do they live in a getto or some real high crime area ,do they think that someone is out to get them or their familys ?? O.K. i live in a small city ,yes their is some crime... But i think a lot of common sence is needed when you go out . I for one will never intervene in or try to stop some store robbery ,or get involved in a crime being commited...thats the job of the police ,i may make a 911 call but thats about it . My sole pourpose of a gun is rarget and shootin sports,self defence would be secondary . I dont feel thretend by others even if they act loud and obnoxious and dress odd . I somehow get the feeling of insecurity amoungst some posters . especially if you hold a ccw .Its supposd to be inconspiceous (sp) There are a few at my gun club that skeet shoot and carry a side arm ...Why?? youre at a private club ,lots of shooters ,do the feel threatend ?? i just dont understand it . I guess age has caught up with me ...living in the sticks ,its a good idea to have a gun ,but going food shoping isnt life threatining . again i hope i didnt hurt anyone`s feelings but i feel some posts are not in the best interest of all those who like guns because of what they are..great pieces of engeneering and machine work and some artfully done . All this in a newby`s opinion .

[rangermonroe]

(can't get the link to post, and it's worthless without it)

http://www.putfile.com/profilepic?ulimg=1http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4467829

[spartan55]

I agree with the whole take care of your body thing, however I do have XXXL vest......I'm almost 300# and can still run 2miles in less than 15 minutes and when I hit the weight room I usually have them all on the bar. I constantly hear about how fat people are bad and you need to lose weight. I am on a tactical team and I know im not the fastest. My point: You have to be well rounded, the smallest guy on the team has not a prayer on taking me one on one, or carying the average team member 50yards, but can run forever pretty fast and fit in tight spaces. I on the other hand may take a little longer getting there, but when I do you aint stopping me from taking care of business with a loud and thunderous bang. We need all types on the team, big, small, fast, smart and even heart. The man with all those are truly the most dangerous.

[51Cards]

rangermonroe ---

If that isn't over the top, the shower is is the wrong location. :D

Is that trickle-down technology?

[Eleven Mike]

But i often wonder what the age of the posters are ,(im 69) what there background is why is it nessarry to pack so many guns ??

If nothing else, a back-up gun is good in case your primary gun fails to fire. It's also another way to carry a reload. I suspect some people just like carrying more than one gun, or feel that it justifies spending the money on the extra gun. That's not necessarily bad. I don't carry anything, right now.

Glad to have you here on The High Road. Please try to write a little more clearly, and break up your posts into paragraphs. Otherwise, people will not want to read your posts.

[Werewolf]

fairly new to this scene of conceled and carry, iand i dont mean this post to irratate any one or flame any one . But i often wonder what the age of the posters are ,(im 69) what there background is why is it nessarry to pack so many guns ??where do they go ,that they feel so insecure . (again no disrespect) Do they live in a getto or some real high crime area ,do they think that someone is out to get them or their familys ?? ...None of the above.

I carry for the same reason I've got a fire extinguisher in my kitchen and a spare tire in my car. I don't think my house is ever gonna burn down because I don't do stupid stuff that would cause that. In almost 40 years of driving I've gotten a flat twice - I think - might be just once. I don't do stupid stuff that'll cause a flat either but I occasionnally get one.

No matter how cautious I am lightning could strike my home and start a fire - with luck an extinguisher will put it out. If I get a flat I sure want a spare along with the tools to change it - I don't want to be stuck on the road.

In the same light no matter how cautious I am, no matter how situationally aware I can't control the actions of evil people so I carry a firearm just in case one of those evil people attempts to do me or mine harm.

Carrying a weapon is all about being prepared. It is not about being afraid or being paranoid or any of the other labels that some want to attach to those who simply wish to be prepared. I'd rather carry, never need it and be alive than not carry, need it and maybe end up dead. Which would you rather be?

[C-grunt]

kb2iaw

Many people carry guns because we do feel threatened by the people around us. My best friend was shot at by two would be car thieves, when he came home while they were stealing the car. He lives in a VERY nice area. Anyone who lives in Phx can tell you that north Glendale is far from crime ridden.

But I have known people that I, and probably most people here, would call over the top. A buddy of mine in the Army would routinely carry a small Kimber with spare mag, a Glock 17 with spare mag, and a Ruger SBH .480 in a shoulder holster. Sometimes depending on his dress he would leave the SBH and replace it with a GP100.;)

[1911Tuner]

Well...I carry one of several variants of the 1911...(What else)...either a Commander, Combat Commander, or a 5-inch pistol...and dependin' on where I'm headed...or might be headed...I may or may not carry a spare magazine. Not because I have any notion that I'll need it, (If I can't handle my problem with 7 rounds of .45 hardball, I likely can't handle it with 70.) but because in the unlikely event that I'll need the gun, being able to top it back off comforts me, and ...like Biker...Every so often, I'm wrong.

[willbrink]

"Remember, to probably 80% of the rest of the people in this country we are all crazy just for owning guns. Lets stop eating our own."

It's a good question/comment. I have also wondered many times what is enough? Some people, who are not LEO or work in a high risk environment or live in a high crime area, will carry a primary and back up, flash light, additional mags, a knife, and pepper spray. Where does it end? I don't know. Over the top? In my view yes, but it's easy to get yourself all worked up and worried and feeling like anything less then a LAW rocket is a risk. I don't pass judgement however. Personally, 8+1 in my 1911 and perhaps an additional mag is all I have ever felt was needed as a civi. Additionally, the person I know who has actually been in shootings as an LEO on the gang unit, entry team, and other high risk positions, carries one gun and an extra mag off duty. Should he carry more? Should I? No right answer there me thinks.

[Eleven Mike]

I think kb2iaw was asking why people carry more than one gun or lots of ammo. I think he gets the reason for carrying a gun.

I think we're forgetting that some people find it easy to carry three guns, so they figure they might as well. Some people have trouble concealing just one gun. Some of us don't mind having extra stuff on the belt. For some, anything on the belt gets in the way.

[noops]

I carry a 9mm usp compact with 1 spare mag, a knife, and light. And still with cell phone, car keys, I find myself annoyed at all the stuff.

I also believe, like others, that fitness is pretty important. I have found in the very few violent encounters I've been in or witnessed that I was better prepared physically, but even more important than that, my mind was better prepared. When I'm fit, I seem to be able to react to stressful situations better, my heart rate and pressure stay under better control, my mind stays clearer. I'm not really sure why that is, maybe there are some physiology experts here who could explain that.

Finally, I also agree that all the bug-out-bag stuff is a little overkill. But I suppose Katrina may have me revisit that notion. I didn't think disasters in this country would reach that stage, but I had probably become complacent. I certainly think that without real survival, basic medical, navigation and mountaineering training, a bug-out-bag would just be a bunch of heavy $H17 for me to carry around. So training is also important. I grew up city but live in Oregon now. I wouldn't have the first clue how to survive in the wild or what to do with all that stuff. So all of that stuff is just tacticrap for me without training.

Noops

[Eleven Mike]

Noops,

Be of good cheer. When the system breaks down, we the competent ones will not hurt you. We will wait until the wild takes you, then strip you of all useful gear.

Your friend,
Eleven Mike :)

[Juna]

It's a good question without an answer. Enough is what you feel is enough. If you feel undergunned or unprepared with one gun, you'll carry a BUG. Others will think you're nuts. As the OP said, most people think we're all nuts just for firing any gun, let alone owning or *gasp* carrying one. So do what works for you, and try not to criticize what others do (b/c they're doing what works for them, too).

Personally, I say obey rule #1: Have a gun. If that's a Kel-Tec P32 with no spare mag, that's fine with me. Remember, only 40% of violent crimes are committed with a gun, so you're ahead of the majority of the assailants when you just obey rule #1.

So don't fret over what's too much or not enough. Be familiar with what you have and learn how to use it well. Just obey rule #1 if at all possible. My $.02

[CZ223]

First off let me say that the next time I go to Texas I'm gonna see if Spartan wants to hang out. If there is trouble I think I'll just stand behind him.:D
To Kb2iaw, Were Wolf explained it as well as I ever could. To expand on his explanation just a bit let me tell you that I am a cabinet maker/carpenter. In my profession I own a lot of tools. I find myself lugging most of them with me each time I leave the shop because I might need them. One of the tools that I own is a sawzall, man don't I hate to use that thing but when you need it there is nothing out there that will do the job as well. Just as I hate it when I forget the sawzall and need it, I would really hate to need a gun and not have one with me especially since I own several. In answer to your question of age/backround I am 45, today, am married with a 15 year old daughter. I was in the service for 4 years from 81 to 85 and have been a carpenter ever since. Even though I have owned guns for roughly 20 years and had CWP for the last 15, I didn't start carrying regularly till 3 months ago. In brief it has been a couple of near misses, I have come way too close to walking in on 2 armed robberies, the last one was 3 months ago, that made me start carrying. In addition to those two incidents I have come close to being the victim of road rage three times in the last 15 years. The first 2 times I simply kept on driving but the last time the guy stopped in front of me and there was someone behind me. The guy got out of his truck, two others still inside, and came back swearing, swinging his arms, and threatening me. At the time I did not have a loaded gun in the truck. Fortunately for me he didn't know that winchester 97 I grabbed out of the rack wasn't loaded. You shoulda seen him spin on his heels. In only one of those instances did I even make a driving error. I cut the guy off but the two twenty somethings in that car did not want an appology they wanted me to "Pull over so we can beat the crap out of you". That was an offer I could refuse. That time and the other time I did have loaded guns in the car and, if nothing else it allowed me to think more clearly knowing that if the situation escalated I was prepared.

[VARifleman]

CZ, it would be helpful if you used paragraphs. Thank you.

[Shaughn Leayme]

kb2iaw,

I doubt many of us would need to be concerned about trouble on the skeet range, but then again you have Darwin award nominee's trying to rob gunshops, where there are a lot of guns and usually an employee or two carrying guns at work, so just because we are on the skeet range, doesn't make it any safer in relative terms than a gunshop and I don't know about anyone else here, but leaving my CC weapon sitting in a bag on the firing line, where I am unable to keep an eye on it, just doesn't do it for me, since at matches/regulated ranges, rifles/pistols/shotguns have walked off (stolen) and the last thing I really want to do is arm some slug.

Nasty things can and do happen in the nicest of places, there is no force field between the evil of the world and Mayberry.

So maybe the 1911 and 2 or 3 spare magazines I carry, folding knife and scorpion flashlight and a back up gun from time to time, may be over the top to some, but it satisfies my personal comfort level, which some nasty experiences over the years has heightened and if I do it right I will just be another faceless individual in a crowd of individuals, which is an edge all in of itself.

[ksnecktieman]

Can we shorten this fence? I refuse to ride this fence, but, one time and one time only, I had my smith 38 in my right hand jacket pocket, with two speed loaders in my left hand jacket pocket. I had my beretta 92 with a ramline 18 rounder under my right arm in a shoulder holster, and two 15 round clips on my belt, and a firestar 9mm with two 8 rd spares in hip pockets.
I knocked on the door of a known drug house, with the intention that my fifteen year old daughter was coming out with me, or I was not coming out. She came out, (her mother was an anti, and this is after we divorced)and a friend of hers came out too. When I stopped a few blocks away, and removed the hardware to dump it in the trunk was the first indication they had that I was serious.
I have a keltec .32. It is enough. If I feel a need for more, I will wear more. That is freedom.

As John Wayne in "The Shootist" said,, "If you feel like loading six, load six."

Freedom, is it not great that we can all carry a belt fed mg, or a single shot derringer? As we each see fit? My legs are longer than the fence is tall, and that is as it should be. I do stand on both sides.

[noops]

Be of good cheer. When the system breaks down, we the competent ones will not hurt you. We will wait until the wild takes you, then strip you of all useful gear.

It's good to feel loved.

[ksnecktieman]

noops? I do not know where you are, so the BOB subject is uncertain. IF you are in central Iowa in the winter, and snowstorm seals you in; If you are in the rockies, and a snowstorm seals you in; If you are in New York, and a power failure seals you in; in New orleans, and a hurricane seals you in;.
A bug Out Bag does not mean to run, it may mean to survive where you are. I am in Kansas, so I need multiple ways to keep warm from blizzards, and the knowledge that I can eat and drink if I am snowed in. It means if the sherrif can not respond to my call,,, that failed,,, did not respond to my cell call either, I can defend myself until he can respond.
I have canned goodsto live on for a couple weeks. I have water for a couple weeks. I have the ability to kill anyone that wants to steal my survival goods. Do I have the will to? I pray to god I never find out.

[SoCalShooter]

Your own habits your own protection is your business but if you want to discuss it go for it, but I will be puting in my 2cents. Remember its your opininon drawn from your experience.

Personally yeah I keep backup mags, and if you intend to shoot someone then empty the mag is my policy, you got 15 rounds put 15 rounds into the target. its not excessive its self defense.

[Edgeofthewoods]

I carry a G21 open strong side. No spare mags as a rule, but damn 14 rounds of .45 Federal Hydro shocks is just about enough. When I carry my 1911, I carry one spare in my hip pocket. Again 14 rounds of .45 Hydros is just about enough. IN the side pocket of my old truck there are 2 spares for the G21, one is 230 Rainer FMC just for that wounded animal, (The four legged kind!) the other is a spare of 230 grain Federal H.S. My main reason for not carrying a spare all the time is as most of you fine folks know the G21 is a large auto. It's mags are also kind of large. They are a bit uncomfortable in the hip pocket and the spare mag carriers look, well they don't look that good. Especially since I open carry. Plus I rarely go in to places where I feel I need. MHO is that a sidearm is just that a sidearm. I do not intend on being in a long drawn out FF so I stay out of places that could cause me to be in one. Being prepared and alert goes hand in hand with carrying a sidearm. One will keep you out of trouble the other will help get you out.

Chuck

[noops]

ksnecktieman

You have a point, and I am joking a little bit. My wife and I are fairly well prepared and we've both begun getting more so. But I spent my whole life prepping in the city, and now need some learning out here in the Coastal Mountain range before I'm ready. One thing I'll say is, if you move to Oregon, put a raft in your BOB.

Noops

[Stretchman]

Hey all. I come from Miami originally. I carried when I lived down there almost all the time. People down there would shoot you over a parking space, or stepping on their tennis shoe by accident. One thing is for certain. If you carry an auto, keeping a spare magazine ( clips are strips inserted at the top of older rifles, I think) is not really all that difficult. Good idea to have it, just in case.

If you happen to get into a firefight, you may or may not know exactly how many rounds you fired. But if you ended up having to shoot a bad guy, or even had an exchange of gunfire, the best thing to do ASAP is reload, and check your sectors ( Flanks ) just in case the guy has a friend. Always assume if you see one, there are 2, and 2, there are three or more.

Some people think that it is overkill. That may very well be true. To be completely honest, I think that heady feeling that people get right when they first get their carry permits and strap their weapons on disappears in about an hour. You then begin to realize that carrying a weapon, practicing, cleaning, doing draw and fire drills ( practice in a mirror, since most ranges won't let you do draw and fire ) is kind of like work. Gaining proficiency with your chosen sidearms, defense against deady force, elevated threat levels, etc, begin to take their toll on you. People either get tired of doing it or complacent, and stop worrying about it. That's the attitude that gets a lot of people who do choose to carry killed. Just having a gun isn't enough. Being able to punch holes in paper isn't enough. Proficiency in all areas of carry may keep you alive. May.

IF you choose to carry, then my best advise is to do it right. IS a flashlight necessary? You bet. One of the best pieces of emergency equipment available. Lots of uses. Get a book on them, or get training. A knife. Definitely. Knives are the ultimate survival tool. And you don't need to reload them. Firearms? Well, don't bring a knife to a gunfight. And if you do carry, definitely carry spare ammo. Because even the best trained people on the street have about a 30% hit rate. That may only mean 1 or 2 shots out of 6 actually hitting a target for the unwashed masses. Regardless of what you carry, with multiple assailants, that may not be enough.

As far as caliber is concerned, I think that geographical area, and the relation to real cover is a determining factor. I have seen guys plug targets with comped .45s out to about 100 yds. If you live in the wide open spaces, you may need a bigger caliber. In tighter quarters, smaller calibers may be better.
Penetration, target aquisition, and believe it or not, bullet speed, may make a difference. Always helps to be able to hit your target faster and recover better for followup shots. Speed can and does make a difference. Even if your rounds don't drop your intended target, getting hit will definitely mess up your point of aim. Getting hit faster also has a greater psychological impact. May enable you to disengage the target and seek cover.

If you can, you will want to practice on targets that move. Milk jugs on rope filled with water are effective for that. They can swing, or be released and slide down a rope on the handle.

If you do carry an auto, your best bet is to carry your spare mag horizontally where you can reach it with either hand, in case you are wounded in either arm. Same holds true for speedloaders. Forget strips, they are impossible under stress. There are 2 types of speedloaders. The best ones are the ones that release when pressed. Twisting can be difficult when you only have one hand.

Does that qualify for over the top? It is simple, really. If you are going to go through all the trouble of securing a permit, buying and carrying a weapon, then the rest of what has been suggested is relatively easy in comparison. What will it give you? A distinct tactical advantage over some street punk who stole a firewarm last week and has never even fired it. IF you are willing to take the step of arming yourself for defensive purposes, and don't take it as seriously as possible, then you are doing yourself a great disservice by not being as prepared as possible. Under stress, rational thought goes out the window, temporal distortions, tunnel vision, and an inbability to determine exactly what has happened until after it is over is the rule, not the exception. Training and muscle memory take over. Having the confidence to know what you can do under stress, instead of guessing, may make the difference between surviving an encounter or going down.

Not only that, but you also have to remember, being on the right side of the law will definitely put you at a tactical disadvantage. Bad guys have a plan, and that plan mostly means they're going to do their best to take you by surprise. Which means that if you are alone, and they have the drop on you, you may never get to your weapon to use it. Most of the time, when armed encounters take place, you will either find yourself firing in self defense after you have been alerted to a problem, or intervening. Pretty rare to win a head to head encounter on a weapon that is already drawn on you. It can be done. But is your wallet, or your life really worth trying, if there are other choices?

Food for thought. For me, over the top means peace of mind. Complacency will do nothing but get you killed. Beginners are nervous enough that they are going to do it because they feel they have to. Old timers do it because they know they have to. It's the guys in the middle who seem to get bagged the most. The bible basically says "Live by the sword, die by the sword", so even choosing to carry has put your feet on that path. Carrying half heartedly can be more dangerous than not carrying at all. Stay sharp out there, ok?

Stretch

[230RN]

MESSAGE DELETED BY POSTER

[Trumpetman]

I've been carrying for two years, eight months, and twenty-two days. I started with a Raven .25ACP the day after I was robbed and fired upon at my home in April, 2004. My aunt gave me that gun when she saw the news story about the robbery. When I knew better and could do better -- I did, but I way overdid it for a while.

At one time I was so paranoid that I carried everything I could get my hands on. A couple of months after I was robbed, I took a short trip to the southern part of my state. It was a trip to the shooting range at Camp Atterbury (Indiana), and I intended to shoot one handgun and one rifle, but I was afraid I would be attacked while out on the road. I ended up making three trips to the car before leaving for Atterbury. Finally I was ready to leave. The car was loaded up with every tool in the chest: three handguns, two shotguns, a rifle, and a bow. I was really over-the-top!

It took me a year and a half to learn how to shoot each piece until I eventually became comfortable with the various purposes of each gun. I have come to a couple of conclusions that I will share only as my particular perspective, although the first one in the list I believe is applicable to all Americans.

1. It is wise to carry a defensive weapon everywhere it is legal. The day I was robbed, it was a beautiful afternoon in a nice neighborhood. Don't be fooled by the "I only carry a gun when I go into a bad neighborhood" crowd. Guess where the bad guys go to steal the best stuff --the best neighborhoods! I even carry at least one gun into the church-house every Sunday, because terrorists love to hit us when we are not expecting them.

2. I try out a variety of guns every chance I get, and buy the ones I like, not the ones being pushed by the snobs. I have five handguns now, all different brands, and I really like shooting all of them, even that little Raven.

3. I respect each gun for its intended purpose, and for different situations. I carry my full-sized 9MM semi with +P Cor-Bons and a .38 special revolver almost all the time. The only exception is when I'm wearing a T-shirt and shorts in the summer. In that case I simply wear my back-up gun, a snub-nosed .38 with Gold Dot +P "short barrel" 135-grainers. When I go squirrel hunting I carry a Ruger Single-Six with the deadliest .22 Mag HP's I can find until I get to the woods; then I switch to .22lr small game ammo. I keep a Mossberg 500 loaded with buckshot and a .357 magnum revolver loaded with Gold Dot .357's in my bedroom. Sometimes I carry the Raven on my ankle 'just because.'

4. It is important to read and study ballistics and other information related to the proper use of firearms, especially posts on this forum. In the process, never substitute someone else's opinion for your own judgment.

5. Practice. I go to the range an average of twice a week. I not only shoot all of my guns in rotation, but I take time to ask lots of questions, preferring the advice of the seasoned veteran shooters at the range. I remember when I couldn't even hit an 8.5" X 11" sheet of paper. Now I feel confident that I could do what is necessary in the event of another attack. That doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Thank you for all of the fine posts here. I am learning so much, and putting it into practice.

[ksnecktieman]

Stretchman?
I have heard all about these wild wild west scenarios from the anti gunners for years, but I was under the impression it never came to pass because of legal carry of concealed firearms. Are you saying that is the reason everyone is armed? To defend against it?

If you can provide details, or link us to examples in the news or the courts, I think many of us would learn by reading them.