Overcoming the "victim mindset"


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bogie
January 6, 2003, 12:38 PM
Okay - went down to my favorite neighborhood swilling hole on Saturday night for a coupla frigid beverages...

(they don't have Shiner - sob, but I found some thanks to FMJcafe (I think), and am planning on a keg for the April Knob Creek run)

Ran into a guy who'd moved in recently, and had been coming in a bit - he's from Ireland, and interesting to talk to. He's got his girlfriend with him. She's just bought a house in a "dodgy" area of town - I witnessed drive-by there about 6 years ago. He saw my Knob Creek t-shirt, wondered what the deal was, and it looks like he'll be coming with us in the Spring - but I digress...

When I found out where his GF had bought the house, I suggested that she get a gun. She came back that she has no problem with people owning guns, and likes target shooting, but that she could never shoot someone. Not even if they meant her grevious bodily harm. In an old apartment of her's, she said she'd been burgled three times, once when she was at home, and that she'd come through that okay, so she was sure that she'd never have any problems.

The Irish guy is basically telling her that she needs a shotgun... (grin)

How the heck do you reason with someone who has their head buried in the sand up to their ankles?

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cheygriz
January 6, 2003, 12:47 PM
Wish I could remember who said this, but I can't. I wish that I could take credit for it, but I can't.
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"Speak sense to a fool and he will call you foolish."
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I can take credit for this one: "You can't reason with an idiot, a fanatic, or a democrat."

HS/LD
January 6, 2003, 12:49 PM
Wolf

Sheep

Whatever....

HS/LD

boing
January 6, 2003, 01:46 PM
For some people, that kind of mindset is akin to religious faith. You can't expect to sit there and lay out a set of seemingly cogent arguments and convince them by a preponderance of "evidence".

Even if she were harmed the next time, she might call herself "lucky" to have survived at all, instead of victimized in the first place, so even that won't necessarily be an epiphany.

Col. Mustard
January 6, 2003, 02:07 PM
"You can't reason with an idiot, a fanatic, or a democrat."


...But I repeat myself... :rolleyes:

...You can always tell a democrat, but you can't tell him much.

pax
January 6, 2003, 02:10 PM
You can reason with a sheep like that.

You can reason with any other barnyard animal too, for all the good it does.

:neener:

pax

A man who cannot reason is a fool, a man who will not reason is a bigot, and a man who dare not reason is a slave. -- William Drummond

bogie
January 6, 2003, 03:30 PM
Oh yeah - another thing she kept repeating (mantra?) was "I just couldn't live in fear like that."

Told her that I didn't live in fear, at least not when I'm at home...

Asked her if she had a fire extinguisher...

tcdrennen
January 6, 2003, 03:46 PM
IIRC, Heinlein defined the true "pacifist" as one who not only would 'turn the other cheek' when assaulted, but would not lift a hand to defend ANOTHER, even his or her own family member.

The question to ask anyone who insists that they "couldn't or wouldn't ever fight back" or refuses to acknowledge the DUTY of self defense:

"Okay, but would you stand by and refuse to defend your CHILDREN or SPOUSE from assault?"

Very few will answer in the affirmative. Those that do are either liars or fools, and further discussion is pointless. :banghead:

Drjones
January 6, 2003, 03:46 PM
Bogie: Check out the michael moore forums for more filth and ignorance than you could comprehend.

Calling them over there "sheep" is a true, deep, and grevious insult to those kind creatures.

That said, these are SO TRUE:

Don't try to teach a pig to sing. You'll just anger yourself and annoy the pig.

Don't wrestle with a pig. You'll just get yourself dirty and make the pig happy.

Shawn Dodson
January 6, 2003, 03:51 PM
So she'd willingly let some scumbag murder her and take her away from the ones who love her -- such as her mother, father, brothers & sisters. She'd rather her loved ones grieve her death than effectively fight back against an attacker with a gun?

WyldOne
January 6, 2003, 03:54 PM
How the heck do you reason with someone who has their head buried in the sand up to their ankles?

Honestly, I don't think you can. And remember, I used to be one of 'em. :) But each person just has to get to the point where they decide for themselves, that they're not gonna take it anymore.

That's my theory/philosophy, anyway.


I could be wrong--But I do know, that until I decided I was ready to hear from "the other side", nothing that anyone could have said or done would have made a difference.

Drjones
January 6, 2003, 04:02 PM
So she'd willingly let some scumbag murder her and take her away from the ones who love her -- such as her mother, father, brothers & sisters. She'd rather her loved ones grieve her death than effectively fight back against an attacker with a gun?

Its called Survival of the Fittest.

She is not The Fittest. Not by a long shot...:rolleyes:

Are there any cases of cats, lions, tigers, voluntarily declawing themselves?

Making their teeth less sharp?

Hell, she's just pulling her teeth and claws out left and right....if she even had 'em to begin with...:banghead:

MolonLabe416
January 6, 2003, 04:04 PM
When I discuss self-defense with someone who is contemplating gettting a weapon, I always suggest that they go to a quiet place, turn off the phone, tv, stereo, etc. and ask themselves if they could kill someone who was trying to kill or maim them.
If, at the end of this self-reflection, they have any answer other than yes, including I'm not sure, I suggest they not purchase a gun. It's unlikely that they would use it under stress with that mindset, and we all know that it's mindset that prevails, not the latest wham-o-blaster.
There are many people who answer no. That's an answer too, though one that is beyond my comprehension.

bogie
January 6, 2003, 04:55 PM
Well, I'm not sure if _I_ could pull the trigger on a presumed bad guy... I might freeze under pressure, whatever. I might not. I don't know.

But, all things considered, I'd like to retain that option.

The Plainsman
January 6, 2003, 04:58 PM
Keep in mind that for most of these folks, it's an emotional issue and you're trying to apply logic. That's like trying to mix oil and water - it just won't happen. Most of us are alike in that we keep trying, but when we finally realize that we're butting our head against a brick wall, it still comes down to attempting to apply logic to an emotional issue. :rolleyes:

Blackcloud6
January 6, 2003, 05:01 PM
"How the heck do you reason with someone who has their head buried in the sand up to their ankles?"

Unless this someone is a person you care about, have personal relationship, relative (that you like), don't waste your time.

A good rule in life is to never care more about someone than they are willing to care for themself.

Miss Demeanors
January 6, 2003, 06:17 PM
http://members.aol.com/ccnobodycc/sheeple.gif


:D

G-Raptor
January 7, 2003, 12:00 AM
It's like trying to describe a sunset to a person who was born blind. They hear the words, they don't get the meaning. It's not their fault, they just live in a different world.

Zundfolge
January 7, 2003, 01:31 AM
When I discuss self-defense with someone who is contemplating gettting a weapon, I always suggest that they go to a quiet place, turn off the phone, tv, stereo, etc. and ask themselves if they could kill someone who was trying to kill or maim them.
If, at the end of this self-reflection, they have any answer other than yes, including I'm not sure, I suggest they not purchase a gun. It's unlikely that they would use it under stress with that mindset, and we all know that it's mindset that prevails, not the latest wham-o-blaster.
There are many people who answer no. That's an answer too, though one that is beyond my comprehension.

I will disagree with this statement.

Attitudes are learned things.

If they are unwilling to kill in self defense, or are unsure if they could (although I believe most people who claim to be unsure may just be unwilling to admit their willingness to kill in public) but they get a gun anyway then theres a chance they will end up shooting for recreation. While shooting recreationaly with friends they will be exposed to the mindset of those of us who feel self defense is not only a right, but a duty and they may change their attitude.

How many more "WyldOnes" do you think there are out there?
(I hope WyldOne is the correct kind of example here, and I hope she doesn't mind if I site her here as an example)

mack
January 7, 2003, 01:57 AM
My experience is that you may not be able to reach them.

However, you stand the best chance of reaching them if:

1. You establish a relationship with them by spending time with them, take their concerns seriously, and let them know by your response to them that you value them reguardless of their present opinion.

2. Find common ground, things you agree with, ie the value of human life.

3. Never try to win the arguement, in fact avoid arguing with them.

4. Listen to them and gently confront them by asking them questions such as: If life is so valuable why would you not act to protect it? Is your life or are the lives of your family not worth protecting? Don't we have a duty to protect life? Isn't it immoral to ask the police to risk their lives to protect you and to use potentially lethal force to do so, when you don't believe it is your right or duty to do so yourself? Don't press them to answer such questions, just ask one and then leave it alone, let them think about it.

5. Give it time, don't press the issue with them.

6. Discuss you beliefs and feelings in a conversational and nonconfrontive way. Why you believe it is your responsbility to defend yourself. Why you enjoy using firearms in a responsible manner.

7. Eventually if they seem receptive and curious, as to why a seemly otherwise normal person such as yourself would own and shoot guns, invite them to shoot with you.

This will sometimes work, but it does take time and patience. Whatever you do though, don't jump all over them and argue them down, you will only harden their opinions and win a meaningless argument, while losing a potential convert.

sm
January 7, 2003, 02:08 AM
Sometimes people change when they "hit a bottom" and their butt won't bounce anymore. Too late tho for some to remember those words of suggestion of ditching the "victim mindset".

PATH
January 7, 2003, 01:02 PM
Well you just can't force these things. Some people have a death wish. Is his girlfriend Irish?

I am reminded of my signature line from TFL.

"For sure it is an evil spite and breaking to the heart, for Irishmen to watch a fight and not be taking part."

From the poem "MacPhearson Held the Floor" by Robert Service.

I am sure that with a little time and encouragement she will come around. I remember a little Irish girl who had that attitude until some miscreant slapped her upside her head and stole her purse. The purse had 600 dollars in it. That was back in the eighties. It was amazing to watch her transformation from a liberal to a hawk! This young lady may need, unfortunately, something bad to happen before she changes her mind!

foghornl
January 7, 2003, 01:27 PM
I have been the victim of violent crime more times than I would ever care to admit; fortuneately, no permanent physical wounds, but I will always carry the scars on my psyche.

After those incidents, my mindset is that I intend to inflict as least as much damage to those as they would have inflicted on me. And if they go after my wife/children/grandchildren, the payback goes up exponentially.

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