[George Hill]

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Hacks%20Target%20Homepage.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=15&rnd=401.2463726050321


Excuse me... I have to go puke my freaking guts out.

[Preacherman]

I hope someone brings this to Mr. Rumsfeld's attention... I suspect that after the stellar performance of Special Forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, he might have something to say about the change in policy!

[Quartus]

Derelection of duty tantamount to treason.

Hang him.


BTW, this is a direct result of the makeup of Congress. Don't make Congress happy, no more stars in your future. YEs, people like Feinswine are running the military.

[voilsb]

good lord, I hope it's not getting watered down.

I hope this is either sensationalism or very temporary.

[Schuey2002]

Are they training to become BoyScouts or Soldiers??!! :fire:

[tiberius]

I hope someone brings this to Mr. Rumsfeld's attention... I suspect that after the stellar performance of Special Forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, he might have something to say about the change in policy!

Unfotunately, success more often than not leads to complacency. If this is true, then the Rangers will have to fail before the generals realize the errors of their ways. IMHO of course.

[CZ-75]

Are they training to become BoyScouts or Soldiers??!!

Sorry, but Boy Scouts have more balls than this.

the Rangers will have to fail before the generals realize the errors of their ways.

Blackhawk Down, Pt. II

(Not to say Rangers failed in Mogadishu, but it wasn't a tactical success, either.)

[Mizzoutiger]

The military has quite a long line of horribly pc decisions to reverse to get the force back to what it was like "in the good ole days". This has been going on for far too long.

[Standing Wolf]

You might want to take care not to offend the lifelong tea drinkers in the crowd.

[Zundfolge]

Well look on the bright side. If the government ever turns the military against the people (like for a mass gun confiscation or something) then we'll be facing a bunch of creampuffs :D

[Redlg155]

That will make you puke. Bunch of panzies.

I'll say those wimps will get their just deserts when they leave school and go to a real Ranger Batallion.

Good Shooting
Red

[Feanaro]

"Wah, the mean men are yelling at me and making me do hard things! I came to the Rangers to be babied, not to kill people!"

I think that is what this amounts too. It's hard? No :cuss: Sherlock, wars are hard too.

[Sindawe]

Come on, these are fweaking RANGERS! J-TAPDANCING-C! Upset because the RI yelled at them and used harsh language? AARRGG!!!!! Somebody call these BOYS a Waaa-mulance, they are gonna need one should they ever run into pissed off civilains in the street.

:banghead:

[PATH]

When people come home in numerous body bags then this crap will stop. Why can't people learn from the mistakes of the past?
Geez, we are turning into the Dutch in terms of our military. God help us!:barf:

[Zorro]

REMEMBER how taking away the old Rangers symbol was an ADMISTRATIVE DECISION?

There You GO!

THERE EXIST IN THE UNITED STATES A TERRORIST PLAN TO KILL WHAT MAKES THE USA...USA!

Guess what? The Anti USA plan won 2 victorys so far! #3 is......Banning Boyscouts as Anti Gay?

All ready happened in California!

Next is..... protecting flys!

[SteelyDan]

Is there any other country in the world in which an "elite volunteer" would even consider making such charges?? As in "I want you to train me to kill bad guys, but don't offend me in the process." I just wish we could export our PC liberals to our enemies, and let them wreak their havoc there. But, oh yeah, even though they love our enemies and hate what we stand for, they'd never leave because they like all the advantages here.

[Hkmp5sd]

If this is true, then the Rangers will have to fail before the generals realize the errors of their ways. IMHO of course.

Fortunately, Rumsfeld appears to pay attention. According to The Hunt for Bin Laden: Task Force Dagger by Robin Moore, Franks sent the Green Berets into Afghanistan at the beginning of the war simply because he didn't have the conventional forces to launch and Bush wanted some "boots on the ground."

The Green Berets really impressed Rumsfeld. During the first months of the war, approximately 100 Green Berets killed "tens of thousands" of Taliban and AQ forces.

Franks finally had enough forces to launch a conventional attack and did so with several thousand troops. He wound up losing over 100 casualties and killed only an estimated 500 enemy soldiers.

Once the major fighting was over, Franks began setting up permanent bases, fire support bases and wanted to send in additional troops to act as peacekeepers. This was the same strategy used in Vietnam. It would put US forces in fixed locations and on the defensive. The Taliban and AQ could then operate as a guerrilla force just as the VC/NVA had done.

On October 22, 2002, Rumsfeld sent Franks a secret memo informing him there would be one CINC, President Bush. Franks would now be just a "commander" and Bush, acting through Rumsfeld, would direct the war.

Rumsfeld put Lt. Gen. Doug Brown in command of a new force that would continue to fight the war in Afghanistan and Franks would no longer be in charge. The war would be fought using Afghan soldiers with Green Beret advisors using their standard unconventional methods.

[twoblink]

Are they training to become BoyScouts or Soldiers??!!

Schuey, stop insulting the boy scouts! ;)

This is a JOKE..

That's always been my dream, to have my country protected by people who can't even cough up a pushup, or who "cannot perform" when someone is yelling at them.

I'm sure they'll do REAL well under gunfire then. "Oh general, they are shooting at us! Make them stop! You'd better stop or else I'll report you!!" :banghead: :cuss: :barf:

[Al Norris]

Where the heck were all you guys when they remade the USMC Boot Camp some years ago? Huh? What? You thought it would stop there?

[shootist2121]

Thank God we still have the Marines....

Their job outlook just went up a notch....

Be safe all

:rolleyes:

[El Tejon]

Two points:

1. It's Hackworth.

2. The RIs may just ignore this when a new CO arrives.

[jdkelly]

Al Norris,

What do you meanby "...they remade the USMC Boot Camp some years ago? "?

jdkelly

[Boats]

Thank God for El Tejon reminding everyone this is a Hack attack. Maybe the Army should remake the Ranger Battalions in Hack's image: Start smoking pot, crank up an on-base whorehouse, drink hooch with the men, brag about medals, and kvetch about everything from the issued small arms to the lack of political will institutionally to just go and smoke everybody, but learning to hold fire on really mouthing off until the beer runs out or Newsweek comes calling.

It'd be tres francaise no doubt.

[stevelyn]

The obvious solution is to send that particular Ranger class to Afghanistan for their first duty assignment along w/ the Ranger School commander.

[Monte Harrison]

While I'll allow this piece may be exaggerated, the fact that the army lets all the REMF's wear black berets is evidence enough of the Clintonisation of the army.
Though letting Rangers wear tan berets like SAS troopers do was a good compromise.

That is until Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton, the guy who runs Fort Benning today, was told by a few recent Ranger graduates that they were turned off by Ranger School because some of their RIs were meanies and actually yelled and cursed at them and even made them do pushups when they goofed up.I strongly suspect these were Ranger washouts rather than graduates, assuming this even actually occurred.

[Don Gwinn]

I wondered about that, too. How would whiners have passed RIP in the first place?

Also, George, you know the SAS drinks tea, and they ain't no knock-knock joke.

[Dannyboy]

I'm glad somebody else brought the whole HACKworth thing into play here. But even if it did happen, why should we be surprised? It started years ago with the wussification of basic training. Of course, if it did happen, I would agree with Monte about those being washouts with a grudge.

[Quartus]

Next is..... protecting flys!

Already happening, Zorro. Ask the folks in Riverside and Sann Bernardino, CA, about the hospital that didn't get built because it would have wiped out the only habitat of a SUBSPECIES of the common house fly!


Yes, it happened.


And Hack may be a , well, hack, but you can't really just make this stuff up. Rangers have been under pressure for a couple of years to be more nice nice, and last year's killing of one of them by a LEO didn't help any. (Though the policy that led to that was begging for trouble.)

I flew a jeep at battalion (for the XO) for about 6 months during my term, and I saw what happened when the Dreaded Congressional Inquires would come down. They got hand carried and treated like all of national security depended on them. Actually, what depended on them was FAR more important - some colonel's chance at a star. :barf:

I saw it even earlier in BCT - some whiner compained about having to annouce RA (Regular Army) or NG (National Guard) or AR (Army Reserve) as he went past the headcount into the mess hall. Had to stop that sensible practice - it made somebody feel bad.

And THAT was mid 70's. It's only gotten worse since then. Like the man said, did you think it would stop there?

[Jeff White]

The problem with anything that Hackworth puts out is that it's become too hard to decide what's true, and what's his hate for everything the US Army does.

Hackworth is an intelligent man and a knowledgeable soldier. You can't discount his personal heroism. But I think the only way the US Army could ever do anything right in his eyes is to make him Chief of Staff and let him run it.

I'll take this story with a shaker of salt until I get more info from different sources. I don't doubt MG Eaton put out the policy. But until I know why, I'll withhold judgement.

Jeff

[H Romberg]

Push-ups = good training.
Cussing = optional.

There's a big difference between keeping tough training from crossing the line into abuse, and emasculating the Rangers. I bet today's Rangers can still kick some serious butt, even if they do talk too pretty for Hack's tastes.

[Nightcrawler]

I, personally, hate pushups. With passion. I hate doing them. I think the front leaning rest position, after enough minutes, is about the most misery your body can have without being injured or sick.

I'm no super PT-hawk, either.

So you know what I did? I DIDN'T FREAKING SIGN UP FOR RANGER SCHOOL!!

Don't you kind of go INTO it knowing it's going to be hard? It's not like they trick you or something, tell you it's going to be a big jamboree where you can make s'mores and tell scary stories.

You don't get to Ranger school and be all like, "WHAT? Push-ups? Getting yelled at? Challenge? This won't do at all! I thought that this was going to be EASY! Why, I've got my graham crackers and marshmallows right here! It's all been a clever ruse!"

Yikes. C'mon, people. Don't like pushups? DON'T TRY OUT FOR THE RANGERS!

[Mikul]

There are precious few places in America where you earn something through merit. Jobs are given to people because of their race or gender instead of their reputation and training. Private social clubs have been forced to accept EVERYBODY instead of the people they prefer to socialize with. The U.S. military was one of the last holdouts against this insanity, but it began giving in some time in the late 80's when I would have entered. Not coincidentally, this is the same time that women were admitted to the military. I lost all interest in joining when I heard the physical fitness requirements were being incrimentally lowered and various other accomodations were being made to allow more recruits to pass. Well I passed on the opportunity as did many others like me, and the US military had to accept more imbeciles who thought they were signing up for a paid gym class instead of those who understood what they were there for.

We need more people with brains to open their mouths and tell these people, "This isn't impossible. There are people who can do this. YOU JUST AREN'T ONE OF THEM! Stop crying, and prove me wrong or get lost!"

[George Hill]

There is a difference between training and abuse...

Training is abuse with a purpose... They are training RANGERS here. Not Air Force security guards. Rangers are the creme of the Army's crop. Rangers have to be all about to overcoming ALL obsticals... including harsh language. If a Ranger can't tollerate cussing how can he tollerate the order to go slit some guy's throat?
Most of the Army's combat training is MENTAL. The physical stress is one thing, but the important training layer over that is the trainees mental capacity to deal with it.

And these few trainees get teary eyes because an RI cussed at him?

"I WANT YOUR D.O.R.!!!!"

Ranger training is tougher than Infantry AIT because it has to be... because Rangers are tougher than Infantry because they have to be.
The Rangers have to REPROGRAM these soldiers... No more Army of One BS... Your now part of a Team. The RI's job is just like a Drill's. They gotta break the trooper down, and build them up again in the RI's image.

If you understood the training process, have been through it, see the reprocussions that any softening of this training can bring... then you would be repulsed.

The softer Army already took Ranger's black beret... what the hell? Are they just going to count of by 5's and hand out a Ranger Tab to every 5th recruit?

"I WANT YOUR D.O.R.!!!!"

And don't talk to me about brits right now...
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2003242223,00.html

[Sean Smith]

It is a Hackworth story. Meaning, it is exaggerated or fabricated. By, ironically, a guy who claimed a ranger tab he wasn't entitled to. Oops! :rolleyes:

If you complain about EVERYTHING in the military, you are bound to be right about SOMETHING. Maybe a few things. But poor Hack is cracked, 50-year-old feats of bravery notwithstanding.

Another military "maverick" once said that you can either do something, or you can be somebody. Doing something requires principles. Being somebody requires the absence of the same. Hackworth wound up veering towards the latter, cashing in as a talking head at the expense of his honesty and objectivity. His account of the Battle of Mogadishu is among the worst accounts of the action in general circulation. A bunch of his claimed decorations were never awarded, even as he drove Admiral Boorda to suicide with an expose revealing that Boorda claimed... unearned decorations. I could go on, but by now you should have a flavor for why Hack lives up to his nickname.

[tommytrauma]

Quartus.
And Hack may be a , well, hack, but you can't really just make this stuff up. Rangers have been under pressure for a couple of years to be more nice nice, and last year's killing of one of them by a LEO didn't help any. (Though the policy that led to that was begging for trouble.)

Are you talking about the SF trainee who was killed during Robin Sage in NC, or was there another incident that I missed?


What can we expect with the 'Army of one' mindset?

[mons meg]

Maybe a fellow jarhead here who went through Parris Island can tell us stories about the female recruits and how watered down their training is....(hint, WM's are scary).:eek:

[Waitone]

Skepticism of a Hack report is AGT (A Good Thing).

Something about the report just does feel right. Remember back when Clintoon decided to create a permanent memorial to his frequent Lewinski's by forcing the Army to wear the Lewinski Memorial Black Hat? Ex-Rangers and active duty Rangers went ballistic (well, for what passes as ballistic for a Ranger). Public demonstration, media events, TV interviews. They raised sufficient sand to get assigned a beige berets as opposed to their historic black hats. So now only the regular Army reminds Clintoon of his frequent Lewinskis.

Yet here we have something far more dangerous supposedly happening. This ain't symbolic like the last flap. The training Rangers receive determines whether or not they will complete their missions and as an added bonus, stay alive. I heard NOTHING from ANY SOURCE except Hack's article.

I know current and former Rangers lurk hereabouts. How 'bout breaking cover and lay some truth on us.

[Dogsoldier]

Just what's up with these kids? :banghead: I was Airborne many moons ago. NO ONE would even dream of ratting out a Jump Master or TI. Just the mere thought of it, would get you a beating by your platoon buddies. In jump school, hell in basic even, I was kicked, punched, pushed, cursed at, slapped in the back of the head, screamed at, had my ears almost pulled off my head, stepped on, made to duck walk until I puked, then do pushups in my puke until I puked again. They did it to everyone. Yes, you bitc*ed. It is a soldiers right to bitc*. But to each other and you never ratted out your top. I simply can not wrap my brain around this. Jeezus, we are still paying for the damage Klinton did to this country. How much longer will it take to purge his filth from this land?

[Quartus]

tommytrauma, yeah, that's it.


Dog, take a look at your sig and then tell me how much better off we are under Uberfurher Ashcroft.

[Al Norris]

When I went through boot camp, we didn't have those nice touchy-feely squad bays that seems to be the vogue nowadays. We racked in quonset huts. Four Squads, 4 quonsets. Plus an extra hut for the DI's. This made up the Platoon structure. We didn't train with women. They had their own seperate area. Mixing the sexes was real bad juju.

Everyone was picked on. Physically, mentally, and emotionally beaton to a pulp. (it's amazing how many places you can be punched and not show a mark!) Those chosen as Squad Leaders were especially susceptable to abuse. You got the individual abuse that everyone gets, and then every time one of your squad members screwed up, ya got it again! You were their Leader, after all.

When the Squad Leaders were called to the Duty Hut, you just knew you were in for more crap than you could ever take. But you took it anyway. I remember one day that the whole platoon had screwed up. Just before the evening chow call, the SL's were called to the duty. After being verbally chewed on for about 5 minutes, the Chief DI handed each of us a bottle of tobasco...the big 10oz bottles! We were instructed to drink it and the first one to puke would lose his squad. We drank it and then were chewed on for another 5 minutes or so (seemed more like hours at the time) with the admonition that the next time the Platoon embarrassed him in front of the other Platoons, things would be a lot worse (I couldn't imagine how, but I certainly didn't want to find out). We were then told to assemble the platoon for chow. That night, my squad did Close Order Drill for several hours...silently...in the hut. Our Platoon never screwed up in COD again, so I suspect the other SL's did much the same as I. Can't do that kind of thing when the whole platoon is couped up in one bay.

Pretty soon, ya took a lot of things into your own hands. Ya did it back in the hut. No one there but the squad. Not like the bays of today, where your all thrown in together. Ya see, the object (which you didn't know at the time...well most didn't) was to fuse you all into a working team. Each reliant upon the other, but under one authority who got the crap beat out of him if the squad failed to perform. That was the purpose of keeping the squads seperated. It forced teamwork. (working with larger groups came later at ITR)

There was a purpose to the verbal and physical abuse. On one level, it molded you into something that could face up to the rigours of combat...and possibly capture. If you couldn't stand the pressure of boot camp, how were ya gonna take combat? On yet another level, it made you absolutely hate your DI's. But the hatred was carefully nurtured to transform into doing more than was asked. If the DI said you had a 10 ft trench to jump and he just knew none of you sissy magots could do it...well, you not only wanted to make him out as a lier, you wanted to best him by jumping 13 ft!

By the 4th week, you had pretty much eliminated the slackers from your platoon. You were beginning to act, not as individuals, but as members of a team. As a team, you pitted yourselves against the other squads. By the 8th week, you did this without thinking. And when you were drilling or PTing with the whole series (the 3 other platoons that made the Company), particularly in the weekly parade, you just naturally pulled together to outdo the other platoons.

By the 10th week, there was a certain snap to your close order drill and parade that wasn't there before. There is a certain indescribable feeling you get when 40+ recruits slap the pavement at the same exact time, or the slap of hand and wood as you perform the manual of arms.

By the 12th week and graduation, those DI's you used to hate, were your heroes. You not only knew that you would die for them, but that they would die for you. They molded you and made you a Marine.

So how is it different now? My son who went through boot in '93 didn't have to put up with the physical abuse. Naw, someone might get hurt. Verbal abuse? Might hurt some sissy's feelins. We compared notes after he graduated. He feels he got the short end of the stick. While the DI's improvised and it certainly wasn't easy, it is nothing like it used to be.

Were there real abuses back when I went through? Yes. And those DI's that were caught were drummed out of the service. They weren't simply re-assigned. The point was to break us down in order to build us up, not kill us.

After boot, there was another 8 weeks of ITR (Infantry Training Regiment), then your Schools Batt., if you had a specialty above that of a rifleman. Then finally you were assigned your actual duty station. From there, one could volunteer for specialized traing. Jump School. Scuba School. E&E School (Escape and Evasion). If you passed all of that, you could look forward to being assigned to battalion Recon. There more specialized training awaited you. In each case, it was similar to going back to boot camp. You were the rooky and had to be molded.

The whole point is that whether you were Recon or Ranger, there was a method to the madness. It was called survival. To take any of it away is to lesson your chances. To that end, if anything is at all true about the Hackworth article, then we have lessoned the chances of our boys to survive.
:fire:

[Sunray]

Well you know, I'm a Canadian, and I stopped reading the article when it said bad things about your Rangers. I've been watching the 'Ranger Challenge' Show on TV. Hosted by LCol North. Who cares? He's commissioned. It's basically a televised 'ranger skill at arms. It's really a skill at arms competition for Rangers.
Geezuz, anybody that says anything bad about these guys is just nuts in the head. Ranger Batt's, Training Cadre, and 10th mountain types, et al. Two man teams that do the course, that goes on for friggin' ever with zero, sleep, food, rest. Nada. These guys are absolutely amazing. "Dedicated" is being polite. So is 'committed'. Some of them carry on(read run) with broken ankles carrying loads that'd flatten us all and other assorted wounds. They don't stop. They don't whine. They don't let their team mates down. Teams with NCO's and Officers both working together.
"...because Rangers are tougher than Infantry because they have to be..." Geezuz, no excrement. Mind you, any pair of PPCLI troopers would give 'em a run for their money. Regulars. We don't need anything else. But damn, those guys on that TV show are good.

[duckfoot]

"Said it better than I can"


That sweet Drill Instructor

Atlanta Journal and Constitution July 27, 2000 Pg. 2JI By Jim Minter For the Journal-Constitution

The notion that some things never change has gone out the window in the 21st century. Everything changes. If you don't believe it, look what's happening in the Army, the Navy, the Air Force and even in the Marines. According to a story in USA Today, basic training has gone to what amounts to social promotions in public schools. Everybody graduates. The new Army is bending over backward to help sad-sack trainees. Instead of being thrown to the mercy of tough old sergeants, recruits who arrive too soft and flabby for regular training get an easier course. The nervous and fearful get counseling to calm them down. A Fort Jackson, S.C., colonel says virtually anyone can get through the eight to 12 weeks of boot camp. Even at Parris Island, home of the legendary and merciless Marine DI, rules have changed. "Drill instructors are there for inspiration," explains a brigadier general, a definition that must perplex thousands of Corps veterans. Another staple of boot camp gone with the wind is the tough leather, hard- sole combat boot. Recruits are specially fitted with running shoes. A Navy officer quoted by USA Today points out that few recruits have worn boots or even hard-sole shoes in civilian life. "If you want to know why young people get shin splints and blisters in training all you have to do is look on the street or go to church on Sunday," he says. "Everybody is wearing Nikes." The reasons the services have gone soft on boot camp is obvious. The washout rate under the old system was leaving the ranks unfilled. Females were dropping out at a rate of 29 percent. The news that this generation of recruits isn't up to the mental and physical rigors of their fathers and grandfathers ought to raise a red flag about lifestyles in these easy and unhappy times, especially as they apply to young folks who, after television, get their only exercise by cruising shopping malls. I'm not sure if we could have gotten an army in the field in time to head off Hitler and Tojo if World War II boot camps had included specially fitted running shoes and anxiety counseling. When the World War II draft began a lot of boys and young men were found to be in poor physical condition, but many more were like my farm-boy neighbors. After getting up long before daylight to milk the cows and do chores, they were pleased to find they got to sleep late in boot camp. By their standards. During the Korean War my job was running a basic training company at Camp Rucker. It was a lucky but undistinguished assignment. While my friends and schoolmates were off shooting and getting shot at I spent the war "shoveling sand in Alabama," to paraphrase Gen. Patton. My company sent three cycles through the 12-week course under the old rules. That's over 500 recruits. Only one had to be washed out, that for a mental condition. Some arrived fat and flabby. All were nervous and scared. I recall a young fellow from Pennsylvania caught with a jaw full of chewing tobacco during an after-breakfast inspection. His sergeant ordered him to swallow the tobacco and not get sick when he did. He swallowed and didn't get sick. In those 12 weeks miracles occurred. The fat ones got lean, the goof-offs turned proud. They all went home with new self-esteem. I hope kinder and gentler boot camps aren't shortchanging our young men and women in the service. The old style worked pretty well. Thousands of veterans call it the most valuable experience of their lives. Despite tough old sergeants who showed no mercy, someone --- a fellow recruit, or sometimes one of the tough old sergeants --- was there to prop up those having trouble. Every company had kids who needed help, and usually they got it. The little fellow from Virginia was an example. He wasn't much of a physical specimen, had trouble staying in step, and one night crawled the wrong way on the infiltration course. We could have washed him out, but everybody pitched in and nudged him along, even though the Army didn't have special courses. At the end of basic training, he was given non-combat assignment in Alaska. He protested. He wanted to go to Korea, to prove something to himself and his family, he said. I told him orders couldn't be changed. A week later, I was taking a Sunday afternoon nap when I heard a knock on my door. It was the kid from Virginia. "I hope you won't be angry," he said. " I got my orders changed to Korea." I was stunned. "How did you do that?" I asked. "I got Uncle Max to change them when I was home on furlough," he said. "Who in the hell is Uncle Max?" I asked. "Uncle Maxwell Taylor," he said. Uncle Max was Gen. Maxwell Taylor, World War II hero, chief of staff of the U.S. Army. Under interrogation, he let me in on several other family secrets. One brother was a West Point graduate, another enrolled in the Naval Academy. His father commanded the Navy base at Norfolk. He didn't want to be the black sheep. I was glad we didn't wash him out.


Simper Fi
DuckFoot

[duckfoot]

"Said it better than I can"


That sweet Drill Instructor

Atlanta Journal and Constitution July 27, 2000 Pg. 2JI By Jim Minter For the Journal-Constitution

The notion that some things never change has gone out the window in the 21st century. Everything changes. If you don't believe it, look what's happening in the Army, the Navy, the Air Force and even in the Marines. According to a story in USA Today, basic training has gone to what amounts to social promotions in public schools. Everybody graduates. The new Army is bending over backward to help sad-sack trainees. Instead of being thrown to the mercy of tough old sergeants, recruits who arrive too soft and flabby for regular training get an easier course. The nervous and fearful get counseling to calm them down. A Fort Jackson, S.C., colonel says virtually anyone can get through the eight to 12 weeks of boot camp. Even at Parris Island, home of the legendary and merciless Marine DI, rules have changed. "Drill instructors are there for inspiration," explains a brigadier general, a definition that must perplex thousands of Corps veterans. Another staple of boot camp gone with the wind is the tough leather, hard- sole combat boot. Recruits are specially fitted with running shoes. A Navy officer quoted by USA Today points out that few recruits have worn boots or even hard-sole shoes in civilian life. "If you want to know why young people get shin splints and blisters in training all you have to do is look on the street or go to church on Sunday," he says. "Everybody is wearing Nikes." The reasons the services have gone soft on boot camp is obvious. The washout rate under the old system was leaving the ranks unfilled. Females were dropping out at a rate of 29 percent. The news that this generation of recruits isn't up to the mental and physical rigors of their fathers and grandfathers ought to raise a red flag about lifestyles in these easy and unhappy times, especially as they apply to young folks who, after television, get their only exercise by cruising shopping malls. I'm not sure if we could have gotten an army in the field in time to head off Hitler and Tojo if World War II boot camps had included specially fitted running shoes and anxiety counseling. When the World War II draft began a lot of boys and young men were found to be in poor physical condition, but many more were like my farm-boy neighbors. After getting up long before daylight to milk the cows and do chores, they were pleased to find they got to sleep late in boot camp. By their standards. During the Korean War my job was running a basic training company at Camp Rucker. It was a lucky but undistinguished assignment. While my friends and schoolmates were off shooting and getting shot at I spent the war "shoveling sand in Alabama," to paraphrase Gen. Patton. My company sent three cycles through the 12-week course under the old rules. That's over 500 recruits. Only one had to be washed out, that for a mental condition. Some arrived fat and flabby. All were nervous and scared. I recall a young fellow from Pennsylvania caught with a jaw full of chewing tobacco during an after-breakfast inspection. His sergeant ordered him to swallow the tobacco and not get sick when he did. He swallowed and didn't get sick. In those 12 weeks miracles occurred. The fat ones got lean, the goof-offs turned proud. They all went home with new self-esteem. I hope kinder and gentler boot camps aren't shortchanging our young men and women in the service. The old style worked pretty well. Thousands of veterans call it the most valuable experience of their lives. Despite tough old sergeants who showed no mercy, someone --- a fellow recruit, or sometimes one of the tough old sergeants --- was there to prop up those having trouble. Every company had kids who needed help, and usually they got it. The little fellow from Virginia was an example. He wasn't much of a physical specimen, had trouble staying in step, and one night crawled the wrong way on the infiltration course. We could have washed him out, but everybody pitched in and nudged him along, even though the Army didn't have special courses. At the end of basic training, he was given non-combat assignment in Alaska. He protested. He wanted to go to Korea, to prove something to himself and his family, he said. I told him orders couldn't be changed. A week later, I was taking a Sunday afternoon nap when I heard a knock on my door. It was the kid from Virginia. "I hope you won't be angry," he said. " I got my orders changed to Korea." I was stunned. "How did you do that?" I asked. "I got Uncle Max to change them when I was home on furlough," he said. "Who in the hell is Uncle Max?" I asked. "Uncle Maxwell Taylor," he said. Uncle Max was Gen. Maxwell Taylor, World War II hero, chief of staff of the U.S. Army. Under interrogation, he let me in on several other family secrets. One brother was a West Point graduate, another enrolled in the Naval Academy. His father commanded the Navy base at Norfolk. He didn't want to be the black sheep. I was glad we didn't wash him out.

The Marine Corps and Psychotherapy


Tell you what; I've had it with whiners. Further, if I hear the phrase "self-esteem" again, I'm going to kill something. It'll happen. Just wait. Some New Age, psychotherapeutically babbling little parsnip is going to gurgle to me about how arduous his life is, when he probably doesn't have a life to begin with, and about how its somebody else's fault, probably mine, and his self-esteem is all bruised and rancid and has warts on it. And I'm going to stuff him into a concrete mixer. No, wait. I've got a better idea. I'll pack him off instead to Marine Corps boot camp at Parris Island, in the festering mosquito swamps of South Carolina. I spent a summer there long ago, in a philosophy battalion. All battalions at PI are philosophy battalions. The chief philosopher was named Sergeant Cobb, and he was rough as one. His philosophy was that at oh-dark-thirty we should leap up like spring-loaded jackrabbits when he threw the lid of a GI can down the squad bay. Then, he figured we should spend the day at a dead run, except when we were learning such socially useful behavior as shooting someone at five hundred yards. He didn't care whether we wanted to do these things. He didn't care whether we could do them. We were going to do them. And we did. The drill instructors had a sideline in therapy. They did attitude adjustment. If the urge to whine overcame any of us, Sergeant Cobb took his attitude tool - it was a size-twelve boot on the end of his right leg-and made the necessary adjustments. It was wonderful therapy. It put us in touch with our feelings. We felt like not whining any more. I kid about it, but it really was philosophy. We learned that there are things you have to do. We learned that we could generally do them. We also learned, if we didn't already know, that whimpering is humiliating. The Marine view of life, which would eradicate American politics in about three seconds if widely applied, was simple: Solve your problems, live with them, or have the grace to shut up about them. Can you imagine what this would do to the talk-show racket? Fat housewife to Oprah: "My...I just won't...being so...heavy hurts my self-esteem." Oprah: "So stop sniveling and eat less. Next."The Corps believed in personal responsibility. If your life had turned into a landfill, it might be somebody else's fault. Maybe existence had dropped the green weenie on your plate. It happens. But the odds were that you had contributed to your own problems. Anyway, everybody gets a raw deal sometime. Life isn't a honeymoon in the Catskills. Deal with it. I remember a coffee mug in an armored company's day room: "To err is human, to forgive, divine. Neither of which is Marine Corps policy."

There's something to be said for it. Nowadays everybody's a self-absorbed victim, and self-respect and strength of character have become symptoms of emotional insufficiency. Oh, alas, a lack, sniffle, seek, squeak, the world's picking on me because I'm black, brown, ethnic, fat, female, funny-looking, dysfunctional, data functional, don't use deodorant, or can't get dates. And sensitive? Dear God. If people suffer the tiniest slight, they call for a support group and three lawyers. (Support groups. When I'm dictator, we'll use'm for bowling pins.) Whatever happened to grown-ups? It's incredible the things people whinny about. Go to the self-pity section of your bookstore. It's usually called "Self Help." You'll find books called things like, "The Agony of Hangnails: A Survivor's Guide." They will explain coping strategies, and assure you that you are still a good person, shredding digits and all. Other books will tell you that because you had an unhappy childhood (who didn't?) you are now an abused, pallid, squashed little larva, and no end pathetic. Other books will tell you how not to be toxic to your Inner Child. I'm writing a book now: "Dropping Your Inner Child down A Well.") We'd be better off if most people's inner children were orphans. I once sat in on somebody else's group-therapy session, which was concerned about the morbid condition of the patients' self-esteem. I didn't understand the rules of therapy, and said approximately, "Look, maybe if you folks stopped feeling sorry for yourselves and got a life, things might be better." I thought I was contributing an insight, but it turned out to be the wrong answer. The therapist, an earnest lady - all therapists seem to be earnest ladies - told me firmly, and with much disappointment in me, that this was No Laughing Matter. The patients' self-esteems were undergoing cardiopulmonary resuscitation, and I was suggesting that they get a life instead of picking at their psychic scabs. She reckoned I was pretty terrible.

Stuff'em into a concrete mixer, I say.


Simper Fi
DuckFoot

[Dannyboy]

recruits who arrive too soft and flabby for regular training get an easier course

While this may be true at Ft. Jackson which, by the way, has always had the easiest Basic Training in the Army, it isn't true for the Army as a whole. Kids who come in overweight or unable to do a certain number of pushups or situps get put into the FBP (fat Boy Platoon). These guys get treated to some serious PT until they can do what they need to do. It's not fun and it's definitely not easy.

[Dogsoldier]

Dog, take a look at your sig and then tell me how much better off we are under Uberfurher Ashcroft.


Quartus,

My sig line says it all.

You are comparing apples to oranges. I was talking about the emasculation of the United States Military under the Klintonian Reign of Terror. Not the civil law enforcement policy of the current administration.

Ashcroft has nothing to do with the Military. He is a totally different story. It is up to Rumsfield. But I fear that the PC garbage even taints the thinking of that old war dog Rumsfield.

The changes will run down hill when the fire and brimestone type of generals are put back in power. I don't know if the military will ever go back to the old butt-kicking ways. On one hand, maybe they shouldn't, on the other, they need to.

Not to sound like an old coot, but no one ever ratted on anyone when I was a kid. Snitches got thier butts kicked. Even teachers would put a snitch in their place. Not so anymore. The kids are encouraged to rat on their classmates. Face it guys, it starts with telling on little Johnny who wrote on the bathroom wall, next it will be you for hiding a stash of guns when/if the ban comes. Those punks squeeled on their DI's because they never learned a sense of honor, or how to stick together in tough times.

[George Hill]

Uberfurher Ashcroft has never ordered the execution of a housefull of people in Idaho nor a small quiet community in Texas.

"Uberfurher Ashcroft" That has got to be the most retarded thing I have read on THR or TFL.

[atek3]

no, ashcroft just suspended habeas corpus in the name of 'fighting terror'

[SIGarmed]

mons meg,

WM's don't train with the men. Their own version of bootcamp is completely seperate with different standards as it should be. There is no coed bootcamp in the USMC.

[mons meg]

SIGarmed,

i am aware they don't train together. I was trying to get someone who went through Parris Island to talk about how WM's are trained. AFAIK, the only differences are a slightly different PFT, where the women hang from the bar for a minimum time, while the men do pullups. Every WM I have ever met would cut you as soon as look at you. ;)

[twoblink]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here..

But wasn't pushups suppose to be the "punishment for screwing up"??

If so, punishment, last time I looked it up in the dictionary, was not suppose to be fun?

What is happening with the armed forces of the world? Most are going to hell in a handbasket with flowers..

[Blackhawk 6]

As a Ranger-qualified infantryman and former Ranger Instructor I would like to thank those of you who have seen fit to comment on the perceived reduction in standards of the U.S. Army's Ranger School. As I am currently assigned to Ft. Benning, and having been on both sides of the course, I feel I may have information that would contribute to the discussion and serve to reduce your fears. The incident decribed in Hackworth's article is true, though, as is typical slightly exaggerated and lacking some key facts. I would like to contribute the fllowing:

1. The fact that complaints were brought to MG Eaton's attention by recent graduates is true. What has not been mention is that one of the graduates was 2LT Eaton. I do not have any details regarding the exact nature of the complaints.

2. Several people have made unflattering comments about the Commander of the Ranger Training Brigade. I worked for COL Kidd when he was my Battalion Commander at 6th RTBn. I can assure you that COL Kidd is committed to turning out the highest quality soldier possible and holds each ranger-student to a high standard. Some suggest that he is complicit in undermining the standards of the course (more on that later) because he implemented MG Eaton's orders. Gentlemen, part of being a good Ranger is obeying orders (as long as they are legal, ethical and moral). I have no doubt that COL Kidd expressed his views on the subject, but in the end his 20+ years of discipline demanded that he follow those orders. Remember, MG Eaton is the Chief of Infantry. COL Kidd is charged with implementing his vision for Ranger Training.

3. Much of the criticism about MG Eaton's new policies stems from the bans on profanity and the use of PT as a form of punishment. Allow me to address each of these.
First the ban on profanity is nothing new. For the past several years, profanity in the Army has been discouraged. Occasionally someone in a position of authority makes it their pet-peeve and their subordinates adapt until that person leaves. Then things return to the way they were. Generally, the use of profanity is accepted or at least tolerated, unless it is used to make a personal attack. For example, "You f***ed up!" is acceptable but "You are a F*** Up!" is not. The reason being is the latter
is disrespectful to the individual and while you do not have to like everyone in the Army, any person willing to put on a uniform and serve their country deserves respect.
With regard to the PT. It is a non-issue. Most ranger-students are too run-down after the first or second week of the course to do any push-ups. I arrived at Ranger School in the best shape of my life. I ran 5 miles in just over 30 minutes the week prior to attending and regularly did multiple sets of 100 push-ups as part of my work out. By Day 5 of Ranger School is was exhausted and for the remainder of the course I performed on shear will power rather than physical ability. That is one on the learning points of the course. In the Mountain Phase I was dropped for 10 (that's ten, not a typo) and I was unable to complete them due to my physical state. Taking PT away as a means of punishment impacts the conduct of the course but not the end result. (See #4)

4. One of the greatest strengthes of Ranger School is that it is run primarily by NCO's who understand the realities of combat and know what it takes to succeed. Each student is assessed every day as to their ability to not only perform under the conditions of the course but to lead. Most who do not measure up will not pass, period. (I say most becasue you always have one or two slip through despite all efforts to the contrary.) The course is subjective in its grading and if you do not measure up you will not pass. With regard to punishment for minor infractions committed, if I am unable to have you PT then I will give you a spot report. Too many spot reports results in either a recycle (repeating the phase- not good) or being dropped from the course based on your overall performance to that point. The point here is that if you tie my hands and force me to work within a system, I will still achieve the desired result. RI's are masters of massaging the system to achieve the desired result. The truth is, taking PT away as a disciplinary tool probably made things worse for future classes.

5. The reality is that Ranger School has been getting easier since the accident in 1995. That is not to demean that quality of recent graduates or to say they had it easy. The truth is that the course I helped instruct was not as hard as the one I went through. Whether or not that is a good thing is something for someone else to decide. Ranger-qualified soldiers continue to distinguish themselves regardless of when they went through the course.

In closing, I would like to make one final point. There has always existed, in our Army, a small group of men who were willing to undertake the toughest missions, endure extreme hardship and who have demanded nothing but the best of themselves and those around them. Whether the Army toughens the standards at the Ranger School or abolishes the course completely, those men will still be within our Army. At this point in history, we call those men Rangers.

Thank you for your concern about the quality of our training. Please share your concerns with those who you think can make a difference. My apologies for such a long post.

Rangers, lead the way!