Non Resident FL and Others Not Honored By PA


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Gary Slider
January 10, 2007, 04:36 PM
I talked to the PA Attorney Generals Office today and was told that the PA State Police say that the way they read the law you must have a permit from your home state. The AG's Office told me that they can not make an official ruling one way or the other and it will take a court case or a change in the law to settle it. The State Police Web site has the following as the last Paragraph on their FAQ Page on CCW. I believe you could beat the arrest in court but it will cost you a lot of money. In my opinionI would not carry in PA unless you have a PA permit. This would also apply to any other staets PA honors that issues non resident permits. This really effects those from MD, NJ and NY as many of them can't get a PA permit because they can't get a permit in their home state.

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The Cavalry
January 10, 2007, 04:57 PM
Pennsylvania has a reciprocity agreement in effect with Florida.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=428


This Reciprocity Agreement by and between the State of Florida by and through the Florida Department of State, Division of Licensing, and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania by and through the Office of Attorney General.

WHEREAS, the purpose of this Reciprocity Agreement is to extend reciprocal concealed firearm carry permit/license privileges to the citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and the State of Florida,


Trying to reconcile this statement:


Note that unless Pennsylvania has a reciprocity agreement with a state, regardless of whether or not their home state recognizes our license/permit, the residents of that state MAY NOT carry a firearm while in Pennsylvania...


So...in my feeble mind, given that PA and FL have a reciprocity agreement in effect, the FAQ you referenced is not relevant.

There's always risk of being arrested while carrying in a "reciprocity" state by a cop who doesn't know the reciprocity exists. Just have to decide whether it's worth this risk, versus the risk of being caught unarmed by a bad guy.

Gray Peterson
January 10, 2007, 05:00 PM
This is not correct. You need to speak with George Zeizsler of the AG's office, not the PSP or anyone else. The Pennsylvania statute does not support what you're saying. There are only 5 states that have a "must be a resident of a state where licensed" clause: Florida, New Hampshire, Michigan and South Carolina.

roarindan
January 10, 2007, 05:04 PM
i found the PA. state web site,and fer $26.00 I can get a 5 yr. outof state permit that allows me to travel (and stop) with my firearm.

Gary Slider
January 10, 2007, 05:11 PM
George is who I spoke with just this morning.

Gray Peterson
January 10, 2007, 05:15 PM
George is who I spoke with just this morning.

That completely conflicts with what George told me back in September of 2005. The language of the statute states reciprocity agreements. Even with the new amendments of the statutes, it doesn't change the fact that there is no residency requirement in the reciprocity statute. At all.

Gary Slider
January 10, 2007, 05:30 PM
The PA State Police are saying that it must be from your home state. Not the AG. The State Police are the ones who have made the decision that it must be from your state of residence.

Gray Peterson
January 10, 2007, 05:40 PM
http://www.njcsd.org/forum/showpost.php?p=5054&postcount=12

I will email Ken Wilkinson again, however this seems to be popping up more and more over and over again.

Pennsylvania Reciprocity Statute:

6106- Firearms Not to Be Carried Without a License

(15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully
issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been
issued under the laws of another state,
regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between
the Commonwealth and the state or jurisdiction under section
6109(k), provided:
(i) The state provides a reciprocal
privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms
under section 6109.
(ii) The Attorney General has determined that the
firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth.

And:

6109(k)

(k) Reciprocity.--
(1) The Attorney General shall have the power and
duty to enter into reciprocity agreements with other states
or jurisdictions providing for the mutual recognition of a license to carry
a firearm issued by the Commonwealth and a license or permit
to carry a firearm issued by the other state or jurisdiction.
To carry out this duty, the Attorney General is authorized to
negotiate reciprocity agreements and grant recognition of a
license or permit to carry a firearm issued by another state
or jurisdiction.
(2) The Attorney General shall report to the General
Assembly within 180 days of the effective date of this
paragraph and annually thereafter concerning the agreements
which have been consummated under this subsection.

I don't see anything in the language of the statute to support the "new position" of George Zeiser, or the PSP for that matter. H1717 added new stuff for reciprocity, but what's glaringly missing is the fact that there's nothing mentioned about residency. The wording of the agreements do not matter. Only the fact that the agreement exists. To put in any "residency" requirement is not suppofted in the law, at all, period.

Gray Peterson
January 10, 2007, 05:42 PM
The PA State Police are saying that it must be from your home state. Not the AG. The State Police are the ones who have made the decision that it must be from your state of residence.

Their decision is not supported by the language of the law. Do me a favor, Gary:

Find out who in the PSP made that decision. I want to know who, how, and why this occurred. How can the PSP rule something illegal when the AG's office are the ones that control the reciprocity agreements?

Gary Slider
January 10, 2007, 05:42 PM
I emailed him 2 days ago and he is checking into it for me too.
I am trying to find out in the PSP who make this decision but I am
having problems getting answers to any questions.

Gray Peterson
January 10, 2007, 05:50 PM
I emailed him 2 days ago and he is checking into it for me too.
I am trying to find out in the PSP who make this decision but I am
having problems getting answers to any questions.

This issue seems to crop up with alarming regularity, usually every year on the dot.. There was a proposal in the General Assembly to restrict Pennsylvania residents from being able to use out of state licenses, however it's never passed. There seems to be serial misinformation on this subject in state government, almost as bad as open carry in certain states.

The AG's office in Pennsylvania represents the PSP on issues like this. It seems rather wierd that the "Child", in the form of the Pennsylvania State Police, overrides the "parent", which is the Attorney General's Office.

Steve in PA
January 10, 2007, 06:05 PM
The PA State Police have absolutely no say in this matter.

The wording of the agreement states that PA will honor valid Florida licenses from valid Florida license holders. It does NOT state that the holder has to be a resident (actually live there) of Florida. A Florida resident license is just as good in PA as is a Florida non-resident license.

"The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania will recognize valid Florida licenses (does NOT say only resident licenses) to carry concealed firearms by valid Florida permit holders (again, no difference between resident or non-resident) while said permit holders are present in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania."

jnojr
January 10, 2007, 06:11 PM
The PA State Police have absolutely no say in this matter.

Sure they do. If they don't think you should be carrying on a given permit, they arrest you. You'll sit in a cell while a bunch of lawyers argue it out. After you're let out, you won't even get an "I'm sorry", certainly no compensation, and no chance of any meaningful sanctions being applied.

You could then go back into PA with your out-of-state non-resident permit, and start the whole process over again if you wanted ;)

Steve in PA
January 10, 2007, 06:29 PM
Arrest you for what? What charge, what crime? They can't arrest you unless there has been a specific violation of a law, and in this case there hasn't been any.

In this thread the debate is whether a non-resident FLA license held by someone NOT living in FLA is valid. The answer is yes, as explained by the information I posted above.

Johnnybgood
January 10, 2007, 06:29 PM
You will sit while lawyers/judges fight it out. Then you sue for false arrest/kidnapping/abuse of power etc.... anything your lawyer can think up. Doesn't help while going through the process, but PSP gets sued often enough and has to pay out large settlements often enough, their AG and possibly even Governer are going to come down on them hard for using up money the could be placing in their own pockets.

Gary Slider
January 11, 2007, 10:21 PM
I am trying to get hold of the PA State Police myself but work got in my way today. I did call George back at the PA AG's Office to make sure what he said was what I heard before I would go any further. He confirmed that the PA State Police are reading the law as FL residents only. Here is a post form Sig Forum by a guy with the handle of "ogive40" Posted January 11, 2007 07:39 PM http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/830601935/m/930106308

Well, I called the Firearms unit of the PA State Police today. They are reading the PA AG law as the reciprocity agreement is for the citizens of FL and PA. Not non Residents.

Also, the SP sees Fl's non acceptance of non resident out of state licenses as further evidence of their (PA SP) position being correct.....

I will telephone FL with this information and the PA AG office as well.

The Trooper that I spoke with has been receiving some phone calls from folks like me who are confused with the wording in PA's agreement with FL. Important, he did point out their new agreement with Virginia and he mentioned the AG's office is going to have to word the FL agreement like the verbage in the Virginia agreement for the SP to recognize the FL permit, when carried by a non resident of FL, as valid.

I got the FL permit really just to carry in PA primarily as I am always there. Time to move maybe or look at the Virginia NR permit. This sucks.

Steve in PA
January 12, 2007, 02:20 AM
There is NO CONFUSION in the agreement, only with people, like the PSP Trooper who do not know how to read.

The agreement says NOTHING about "citizens" of Florida, only the State of Florida, valid license issued by Florida and persons that hold valid Florida licenses.

This is not rocket science.

Also, you cannot use Florida's agreement or lack thereof with another state, it means zero! You can only use the agreement you have with them.

:banghead:

Brian Williams
January 12, 2007, 10:00 AM
Let's keep it on topic, the interpretation of the Pennsylvania Reciprocity Statute, unless you can specifically point to an individual officer, do not disparage the group.

XD_fan
January 12, 2007, 12:52 PM
I'm unaware of anything legally that allows the police to interpret the law and determine the legality of a situation. That's what the court are supposed to do. The police are overstepping their bounds on this. The police can't just arrest you, "because that's how we read the law". That's called false arrest in most cases. Something tells me it will take an expensive lesson to the PA taxpayers before the PSP goes back to enforcing the law versus making up new law.

Gray Peterson
January 12, 2007, 03:09 PM
Ok, I recievfed an email from Ken Wilkinson. I copy the email below:

Good morning, Mr. Wilson:

I spoke with Mr. Mulle late yesterday afternoon. He confirmed that Pennsylvania would continue to honor all valid Florida concealed weapon licenses.

Please let me know if you have any other questions. Have a pleasant weekend.

Ken Wilkinson
Management Analyst
Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services
Division of Licensing
Post Office Box 6687
Tallahassee, Florida 32314-6687

Gray Peterson
January 12, 2007, 03:14 PM
Just in case you don't know, Robert Mulle is George Zeisler's boss. The Attorney General's Office is the only place that can determine a license to be valid or invalid. The PSP has absolutely no authority whatsoever to determine non-resident Florida licenses to be invalid. It is not supported in the language of the statute, and Robert Mulle's word on this is final, because it is supported.

Gary Slider
January 12, 2007, 04:01 PM
I got the same email Lonnie got. This makes me feel much better.

Gray Peterson
January 12, 2007, 10:16 PM
I've also emailed back asking him to contact Mulle and advise him to please tell the PSP to change their website in regards to firearm reciprocity, to make it CLEAR that LTCF's are recognized.

Kael
January 16, 2007, 06:23 PM
My apologies for jumping in;
I spoke with the PA AG's office today, and the best the gentleman I spoke with could tell me was "I don't know", and advised me to get a PA CCW to be on the safe side. (not possible for me as an MD resident)
I am still concerned by the fact FL definitely does not honor a PA non-resident, and they signed the same reciprocity text PA did.

EasternShore
January 16, 2007, 07:00 PM
From PSP's web site

http://www.psp.state.pa.us/psp/cwp/browse.asp?A=15&BMDRN=2000&BCOB=0&C=70426

15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided:
(i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109.
(ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth.

Actually read the whole faq. It say's what the law says, I'd like to know what Officer said otherwise...

Kael
January 16, 2007, 07:11 PM
I did just find this:
Although the right to carry a firearm in Pennsylvania is limited to residents carrying a concealed weapon permit from the states listed above, Idaho, Indiana, Montana, Oklahoma and Utah do allow any out of state resident with a valid concealed weapons permit from their home state to carry a weapon while in those respective states.
The listed states are all those PA has reciprocity agreements with.

from PA Attorney General (http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=184)

Aguila Blanca
January 16, 2007, 08:39 PM
Ya gotta love it when the police start making up their own interpretations of the laws. This little question mark in PA reminds me of the little question mark up I-95 in (of all places) CT. It seems the CT license to carry is not a "concealed" carry license. In CT you need a license to carry at all, but the license they issue doesn't say anything, anywhere, about "concealed." Neither does the state law under which the licenses are issued.

Ergo, a CT license sould entitle the bearer to carry either open or concealed. Which would be consistent with the CT state constitution. However, the State Police and the "Board of Firearms Examiners" (whoever and whatever they are) have put out a FAQ stating that open carry is not permitted. So, just like in PA, the police are trying to restrict the RKBA even further than the laws already restrict it.

CNYCacher
January 17, 2007, 09:03 AM
Emails are nice, does anyone have it in writing though?

k_dawg
January 17, 2007, 09:29 AM
The sad reality is that LEO's often have misconceptions of what the law is. Many times they seem to make it up on their own [ similar to urban legends ], sometimes due to faulty training and leadership.

I know in Miami-Date.. many LEO's seem to believe there is a "3 steps to access a firearm" law while having a firearm in a vehicle (*), when the law and caselaw states no such thing! Many others think it is a crime, period, to have a firearm in the vehicle. Even when the driver is in accordance to the law. :banghead:




(*) for those without a CWP

romma
January 17, 2007, 09:36 AM
I know in Miami-Date.. many LEO's seem to believe there is a "3 steps to access a firearm" law while having a firearm in a vehicle (*), when the law and caselaw states no such thing! I can't tell you when I was younger how many times I heard the refrain "ignorance is no excuse of the law"... Where is accountability on the Leo end? Not bashing, but the law is certainly one sided, and that is a big problem why many Leos do not feel compelled to know the law themselves.

The Cavalry
January 17, 2007, 11:29 AM
Now that the informative part of this thread is over, standing by for the obligatory "how do u get a fl cary permit??????????????" post to appear.

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