New Kel-Tec Bullpup Rifle


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alamo
January 11, 2007, 07:56 PM
Just introduced at the SHOT Show today:


http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=2505;action=display;num=1168555223

Brochure download:

http://www.kel-tec.com/images/downloads/RFB_Flyer_SHOT_2007_web.pdf

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B yond
January 11, 2007, 08:05 PM
That is so friggin' cool I just about lost my mud when I saw it!

Jackal
January 11, 2007, 08:13 PM
I cant look at it. It hurts too much to wait a full year:banghead: Also, after I buy that, keep an eye out for 3-4 of my rifles for sale here on THR.

Snappy_13
January 11, 2007, 08:15 PM
sweeeeeet

hexidismal
January 11, 2007, 08:18 PM
Uses FAL mags?!? That's just plain awesome :what: ... but will it be commercially sold with 10 round mags available ?

ArfinGreebly
January 11, 2007, 08:22 PM
Too bad about the pistol grip.

No RFB for you, CA.

Whatcha wanna bet they figure out a way to do CA legal in a couple years?

DoubleTapDrew
January 11, 2007, 08:36 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Kel-Tec rifles but that's awesome! To quote Wayne "It will be mine...oh yes...it will be mine". I wanted a FS2000 but my heart sank when I saw the price tag. This should be much more reasonable.
That sucks we have to wait a year though.

The Deer Hunter
January 11, 2007, 08:49 PM
thats awsome looking, suprising from Kel-tec

Ian
January 11, 2007, 08:52 PM
Wow!:what:

A 2-6 pound adjustable trigger on the Target model? It it possible Kel-Tec has solved the problem of crummy triggers in bullpups?

MachIVshooter
January 11, 2007, 08:59 PM
That is so friggin' cool I just about lost my mud when I saw it!

My thoughts exactly. I am quite fond of Kel-Tec, love the 7.62mm round and have been waiting for a nice looking bullpup. I just hope they get them out before a new ban shows up:eek: .

The Deer Hunter
January 11, 2007, 09:00 PM
So, if i worked for Kel-Tec, can i get it now?

JesseL
January 11, 2007, 09:05 PM
Thats got some very innovative features to fix a few of the traditional bullpup issues.

It's got the trigger/sear mechanism in the front with a linkage to the hammer, unlike most bullpups which have the sear/hammer mechanism in the rear and a linkage to the trigger in the front. That should help eliminate any problems with the trigger feel.

It's also got the ejection port out the front, over the barrel. No problems with lefties getting brass in the face.

Glockfan.45
January 11, 2007, 09:09 PM
:what: WOW! Kel-Tec has come a long way from making just crummy little mouse guns. They are rapidly becoming one of the most inovative companies in the business. .308 in a bullpup :D , FAL mags :D , 2008 is too far away :( . Any idea what the pricing will be?
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k97/pimpster82/DSCF0483.jpg
Just too freaking cool.

Jackal
January 11, 2007, 09:17 PM
Any idea what the pricing will be?

I would venture a guess at a MSRP of about $699 and a street price of around $550. The cost to manufacture cant be much, if any more than the SU-16's.

crunker
January 11, 2007, 09:19 PM
What's the threading on the barrel?

alamo
January 11, 2007, 09:29 PM
Pricing - a KT employee posted this estimate on another forum:

It's too far away from production to quote an accurate price. (Shipping by Q1 2008 )

But the MSRP is EXPECTED to be in the $2k range for the 18" barrel carbine,
$2.5k range for the 24" barrel sporter,
and $3k range for the 32" barrel target model with 5 way adjustable trigger.



That is MSRP, not necessarily what they will actually sell for.

mattw
January 11, 2007, 09:31 PM
I would buy one if they were closer to $700. But if the MSRP is around $2k it will probably actually sell for about $1700.. I don't like bull pups that much.

alamo
January 11, 2007, 09:39 PM
I would buy one if they were closer to $700. But if the MSRP is around $2k it will probably actually sell for about $1700.. I don't like bull pups that much.


Probably closer to the $1,400 range. The P-3AT's MSRP is $300 and I see them in the low $200 around here. Of course, the MSRP's are an estimate, we'll see.

mattw
January 11, 2007, 09:43 PM
Probably closer to the $1,400 range.

Speculation on an estimate of an estimate...

we'll see

Geno
January 11, 2007, 09:46 PM
Oooooo! Must have bullpup! Must have bullpup! Must have bullpup!

Stevie-Ray
January 11, 2007, 09:48 PM
I wanted one pretty bad until the price brought me back down to earth.:(

Jackal
January 11, 2007, 09:50 PM
If price is over $700, count me out. I am not selling my Bushmaster to buy a Kel-Tec.

wcwhitey
January 11, 2007, 09:57 PM
I want one, I may need the whole year to get my wife used to the idea, so that isn't bad. If it comes in under $600 its in the safe keeping the rest of the guys company. KEL-TEC is a company that has us in mind, they are really moving up in my book! :what:

MachIVshooter
January 11, 2007, 10:09 PM
Knowing Kel-Tec, looking at the actual rifle, looking over schematics as compared to the SU-16/PLR-16, and then looking at what is already out there in 7.62mm, I would bet on actual retail in the $1,200-$1,500 range for the 18" and 24" guns, with the 32 incher being a good $200-$300 higher. There was a whole lot more engineering in that than the SU/PLR. Also looks like a lot more steel, which means higher production costs.

If it comes in cheaper, great. If not, it will still be the ONLY bullpup 7.62mm on the US market. The fact that it uses cheap and readily available FAL mags is a big plus.

The only thing that even comes close to that size/weight is the JLD PTR-91 Para, which goes for ~$1,400.

That KT is a good bit shorter and lighter than my AR-10 carbine, even with the stock fully forward.

I will definitely be driving the local shops crazy trying to get one as the time nears.

armoredman
January 11, 2007, 10:39 PM
If I can afford it, that looks outstanding. One question, does anyone think that ejection tube could get fouled quickly with cheap brass/steel cases, and how fast to clear it?

Ditchtiger
January 11, 2007, 11:16 PM
Sent a two word message to my dealer, I WANT!!!!!!!

chestnut ridge
January 11, 2007, 11:53 PM
Yes the rifle looks nice. I don't think it will ever get into production.
I am doubtful the ejection system will be reliable. I hope it does make it
on the market; as Kel-Tec is a good American company and I am sure
they have invested a ton of money to get this rifle developed.

M249MachineGun
January 12, 2007, 12:05 AM
Finally! Now I know that it will be Kel-Tec that makes the MA5B in 500 years. Perfect for defending Earth from the Flood and the Covenant. I wonder where I can get some MJOLNIR armor to go with it.

Oleg Volk
January 12, 2007, 12:26 AM
Sigh. Finally a rifle I can be enthusiastic about and it's a year away...

I am more and more impressed with KT.

Manedwolf
January 12, 2007, 12:30 AM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :D

WANT!

But...um...not at that price. Ow.

Eightball
January 12, 2007, 01:23 AM
I will definitely be driving the local shops crazy trying to get one as the time nears.Why wait?:D Maybe if all our local shops start pestering Kel-Tec, they'll move up the release date?

Glockfan.45
January 12, 2007, 01:43 AM
I want one but at around 2k I guess I dont want one that bad :( .

ArfinGreebly
January 12, 2007, 02:45 AM
Now, THERE is a home defense rifle.

Sign in the yard: WARNING: TRESPASSERS MUST WEAR BODY ARMOR.

Ndenway
January 12, 2007, 03:23 AM
man, 2k is out of my price range, I paid $1050 for my ar10a4 nib,

I'll buy one if it doesn't exceed the price of my armalite.

Selfdfenz
January 12, 2007, 06:13 AM
I noticed that the chamber is basically right under the shooters ear. I wonder if that will seem louder than a more conventional design or if the person firing the rifle would notice any difference?

Interesting

S-

Nightcrawler
January 12, 2007, 06:26 AM
OH MY HOLY LORD GOD! A BULLPUP .308! THAT TAKES FAL MAGAZINES! LEFTY FRIENDLY!

KEL-TEC, I love you.

I think I'm gonna cry... :o

Nightcrawler
January 12, 2007, 06:33 AM
OH goodness...it has a bayonet lug too...

*sniffle*

JShirley
January 12, 2007, 06:56 AM
"God bless Kel-Tec."

Bullpup...uses FAL mags...AWESOME!

Nightcrawler
January 12, 2007, 07:01 AM
It's like the ASP Rifle (http://www.gametrailers.com/grplayer.php?r=1&id=7816&type=mov) from the game F.E.A.R. A 7.62mm bullpup.

Seriously, guys. This is the rifle I've always wanted somebody to make. I never would've guessed Kel-Tec, but why not? It's 6" shorter than an 11" SBR FAL.

Normally, I'd never buy a first-run rifle. But for this...hell. I'll give it a go as soon as they're available. I don't care if it's two grand, I'll save up.

Then they should scale it up to .300 Win Mag. :cool:

ForeverArmed
January 12, 2007, 07:11 AM
That is simply the most awesome rifle concept I've ever seen. I want one. BADLY.

Then they should scale it up to .300 Win Mag.That would simply be too cool for words. The world needs more semi-autos in ultra-powerful calibers.

But hey...a .308 from a 32" barrel is no slouch, either. :)

1 old 0311
January 12, 2007, 07:21 AM
Don't forget it is a Kel Tec. Lets see if it works!

ForeverArmed
January 12, 2007, 07:37 AM
Don't forget it is a Kel Tec. Lets see if it works!
Have there been issues with other Kel-Tec rifles?

My only familiarity with them is from looking at pictures. I always thought those folding .223 SU carbines looked appetizing, but reliability is important to me. Thanks.

JonB
January 12, 2007, 08:54 AM
Finally! Now I know that it will be Kel-Tec that makes the MA5B in 500 years. Perfect for defending Earth from the Flood and the Covenant. I wonder where I can get some MJOLNIR armor to go with it.

My thoughts exactly - can almost hear the Halo2 theme music playing in the background when looking at the pictures of this thing.

dfaugh
January 12, 2007, 09:52 AM
MAN! I love bullpups....and in .308...and FAL Mags. Sweet.

And I have aa whole year to save up for one....

Hopefully the "street price" will be something more like $1000-1200. I could justify that...if it's over $1500 the decision gets harder, as there are some other guns I'd like in that range.

alamo
January 12, 2007, 10:21 AM
Don't forget it is a Kel Tec. Lets see if it works!

Go away Kevin. You've never owned any Kel-Tec pistol or rifle. Take your vendetta somewhere else.

Here's something a KT employee said on the KTOG forum in response to a question about chrome bores and chambers:

not 100% finalised on this....

But 32" model should have a chromed chamber only.
18" probably chamber and bore....not sure about 24"

Mike128
January 12, 2007, 10:50 AM
Wow, I might want this instead of the SOCOM I've been lusting after. Hopefully the MSRP will be under $1500. I have two thoughts though.

1) The ejection tube should angle down. This would allow gravity to assist ejection. I'm still worried about empty casings jamming in the tube. Maybe also adding a spring loaded manuel clearing plunger of some sort.

2) How well does a bullpup protect the shooters from KABOOMs. The chamber is right by the face. It could very easily be a very bad situations.

shaggycat
January 12, 2007, 11:10 AM
I want one, but it will be quite some time before I pony up that kind of cash...

Mumbles_45
January 12, 2007, 02:32 PM
OH MY HOLY LORD GOD! A BULLPUP .308! THAT TAKES FAL MAGAZINES! LEFTY FRIENDLY!

KEL-TEC, I love you.

"God bless Kel-Tec."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Then they should scale it up to .300 Win Mag

Your out of control.

ok nevermind that would be awsome.

It's 6" shorter than an 11" SBR FAL.

Definately one of the coolest things about it.

I will buy this rifle in a heartbeat, regardless of price (I've got a year to save) on three conditions:

1. It is rediculously reliable. By reliablility I mean it goes bang every time and parts don't break.

2. It is reasonably accurate (2-3 MOA), although with an 18" barrel and the alleged non-bullpup trigger, I don't think that should be a problem.

3. Recoil is manageable. If I can't keep it under control while doing CQC/CQM type stuff, the short length is useless to me

If it fails to meet any of those requirements, I'll stick with my FAL.

I'm not going to be able to sleep at night from now until I get one, I'll be to worried a ban will get passed and all will be lost.

Fingolfin
January 12, 2007, 02:40 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love to see new designs but why oh why couldn't Kel-Tech FIRST have made a version of the SU-16 in .308 that takes FAL mags? Priced similarly(slightly higher than the 5.56 of course), seems like that would be a better seller.

mljdeckard
January 12, 2007, 02:47 PM
Is this the perfect SHTF rifle?

Mumbles_45
January 12, 2007, 02:50 PM
Is this the perfect SHTF rifle?

I'm hoping

jrfoxx
January 12, 2007, 03:01 PM
Maybe I'm not too bright (I've been accused of it before, and sometimes, it's true :)), but doesn't the spent brass eject from the top, and right about where your face would be if using a scope? I'm obviously missing something here.Can anybody tell me why I'm wrong (as I have to be, no mfg. would be that dull)? Otherwise, if the price is much lower than the estimates at this point, or I can find a used one later on for much cheaper, I think it's VERY sweet, and I've never cared for the look of any other bullpups I've seen before.

JesseL
January 12, 2007, 03:07 PM
Spent brass gets shoved out through a tube and ejects straight forward right above the barrel. If it works, it's about the only location it should be impossible to get hit by your own brass.

Thefabulousfink
January 12, 2007, 03:25 PM
I a little skeptical on the ejection meathod, it seems like it would be prone to jams (especially after the rifle gets hot and dirty). I would definately want to see how it preforms in a torture test before I would spend $2k on it.

That being said, I like everything else about it.:D

DMK
January 12, 2007, 03:34 PM
I already like that a lot better than the Fn2000.

Prince Yamato
January 12, 2007, 03:37 PM
Cool rifle, but for $1000+?

the naked prophet
January 12, 2007, 03:46 PM
I like the design, but I'd rather have one in .223 that uses AR mags. I've already invested quite a bit of money in .223 ammo and AR mags, and .308 is just so darn expensive. I'll bet that if they made one in .223 it would be cheaper than the .308 version, and lighter too.

Dave R
January 12, 2007, 03:52 PM
I'm also skeptical of the ejection system. What is the big benefit of forward ejection? Is it purely so the rifle can be completely ambidextrous?

But like everyone else, if it works...I'm there.

carebear
January 12, 2007, 03:59 PM
That same style of ejection is being used on a couple other newish rifles being produced for (future) military use. I have no idea how they've done in testing but it isn't totally "unproven".

With several platforms around, the kinks should be able to be worked out easily enough.

JesseL
January 12, 2007, 04:01 PM
In some ways the ejection is mechanism is already a proven technology. It's not unlike the mechanism of a belt fed machinegun where the round is pulled rearward out of the belt and then fed forward into the chamber, but instead the kel-tec pulls the round out of the chamber and feeds it forward into the ejection chute.

It could work.... or it could fail miserably.

mattw
January 12, 2007, 04:03 PM
Its all fun and games until you are walking though the streets of Sadr City and you have to shoot a terrorist off a roof that is directly above you... HOT BRASS SHOWER! :neener:

I am a little bit concerned about the ejection method though, but if it works it will look really cool. Hopefully it won't chip finish off the barrel.

M14fan
January 12, 2007, 04:13 PM
Doesn't it rather resemble the old M17 Bushmaster bullpup rifles?

Davo
January 12, 2007, 04:38 PM
great idea, very innovative. Im a big fan of keltec.

Ian
January 12, 2007, 05:01 PM
why oh why couldn't Kel-Tech FIRST have made a version of the SU-16 in .308 that takes FAL mags?

If I had to guess what KT was thinking, I would imagine that a .308 SU-16 would probably not sell too well, because it would have to compete directly with a bunch of popular and proven rifles - the M1A, PTR-91, AR-10, Saiga, and FAL. By making it a bullpup, though, they can move into an untapped market niche.

I'll be buying one, I expect, unless the design flops for some unexpected reason. Slap on a 1-5x scope on that rail, and you've got a rifle so cool it send shivers down my spine. :p

Nightcrawler
January 12, 2007, 05:04 PM
Guys, this rifle won't just be the only .308 bullpup in the US; as far as I know, it'll be the only such rifle in production in the world. The only other .308 bullpup I can think of off the top of my head is the bullpup-conversion of the M14 the Israelis used to use, and converting an existing rifle to bullpup is always an iffy proposition.

Soybomb
January 12, 2007, 05:11 PM
keltec is putting out some really neat stuff, I am impressed with them.

Ian
January 12, 2007, 05:15 PM
Nightcrawler, to be picky, there is the WA-2000...but that's not in the same ballpark.

Nightcrawler
January 12, 2007, 05:18 PM
AFAIK, they never made the WA-2000 in .308. I think it was .300 Win Mag only, but I could be wrong on that.

Ian
January 12, 2007, 05:21 PM
You could be right. I don't know anyone with a real WA-2000, much less know the different variants. :)

CarbineKid
January 12, 2007, 06:20 PM
I was intrested until I seen the price....way to much for anyting with Kel Tec stamped on it. I'de perfer if Kel Tec made the SU reliable(lots of ejection issues) and with a pistol grip.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 12, 2007, 06:51 PM
Wow... a 24" barrel .308 semi-auto that takes FAL mags AND is as small as a 16" AR Carbine with the stock collapsed? That is amazing... and the 18" is even smaller still (by 6").

One problem I can see is how do you do stoppage drills if there is a feed problem?

MrTuffPaws
January 12, 2007, 07:24 PM
Well, there is another reason to move out of CA

Dr.Rob
January 12, 2007, 07:42 PM
That's cool... very innovative and darn right wicked. The ejection system is very unusual... I'll have to look it over further.

I'd love to try one out.

Juna
January 12, 2007, 07:47 PM
Darn you all!! :evil: There are already enough Kel-Tec guns on my wish list, and now I have to add one more. I have a disease, and it's getting worse! :D :evil:

I've never been a Kel-Tec basher. I think they're the most innovative firearms company today, and they're American to boot. They make some of the best, lightest, most compact guns around. From the folding Sub2000 & SU-16 to the pocket P32 & P3AT to this new bullpup. I'm really impressed with Kel-Tec. Period. I won't be able to afford the bullpup at those prices, but eventually....

EdLaver
January 12, 2007, 08:02 PM
It reminds me of that walther sniper rifle bullpup with the wooden stock. Man what a great looking rifle, I would make one for long range. B/c Kel-tec is known for great value, I doubt it will be in the $1200-$1400 range. I hope another ban isnt in place for 2008, I would love to get my hands on one of this babies:evil:

Thefabulousfink
January 12, 2007, 08:19 PM
One feature that would really have me saving my pennies is a quick-change (or at least easy-change) barrel.

I would love to get the 32" sniper version, and be able to put the 18" carbine barrel on it.

Andrew S
January 12, 2007, 08:21 PM
Aestheticly similar to the British SA-80 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as22-e.htm).

Depending on the price and the function I could definately see one of these in my future. However, it seems that the US built AUG reproductions will be available sooner so I will probably have one of them first.

alamo
January 12, 2007, 09:29 PM
2) How well does a bullpup protect the shooters from KABOOMs. The chamber is right by the face. It could very easily be a very bad situations.

Here's a partial answer from a KT employee on another forum:

the way we get around the bad trigger issue is we don't have a trigger transfer bar.... Instead we have a hammer transfer bar, so the trigger mechanism is still in the grip, near the trigger.


Yes, destructive testing will be done....there are 2 layers of 1/16" thick aircraft quality steel in between your face, and the action of the gun...It makes it hard to check if the chamber is empty, though. You have to remove the mag and lock the bolt back, then you can feel the chamber.

Here's the thread:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=499;action=display;num=1168612912

Another thread of interest. ktwm is a KT employee;

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=499;action=display;num=1168627658

Dave R
January 12, 2007, 09:37 PM
SO....is Kel Tec after the military/LEO market with this rifle? Or is it really intended to be marketed to regular folk?

crucible
January 12, 2007, 09:56 PM
Neat looking, and I like to see new firearm innovation, something Keltec seems to do a goodly amount of to which I applaud them.

That said, even near the MSRP being spoken of here can buy a heck of a nice M1A or FAL or .308 AR and leave a whole lot left over for ammo.

C-

Wes Janson
January 12, 2007, 10:43 PM
I'm guessing $1600 is what it'll be selling for, give or take $100.

As for reliability of cartridge ejection...I dunno, I'm thinking it's not going to be an issue. There doesn't seem to be any possible way they could bind up in the tube, so short of an extractor failure there's nothing really to go wrong there, they just go forward (or so is my understanding). The trigger is awesome, and the whole thing is just so small and light...

I already told Kel-Tec that one year is just too dang long to wait. One of the reps said something like "You never know, if things go well it might even be slightly sooner". Every month sooner would make me enormously happy. This is definitely a 2008 Christmas wish-list top item.

3006mv
January 13, 2007, 01:02 AM
Impressive design what are they using alien technology? I have to give their engineers props for thinking outside of the box. I have the Kel Tec SU 16 and am growing to like it more and more mostly b/c it is so simple yet effective. Easy maintence and more accurate than me.

mattw
January 13, 2007, 01:37 AM
I really want one of these and the more I look at it the more I think I might be able to save up that kind of money in a year... but I've had an M1A as my go-to battle rifle for a few years now and I have never had a jam or failure, but if I did, it would be super easy to evaluate what happened and clear is because the action is exposed.

It seems that a FTF or FTE could be disasterous in a bull pup because the action is totally enclosed. It also seems like carbon buildup from extended firing sessions could be a problem.

I know it is like asking "what happens if a potatoe ends up in my truck's exhaust?" but what if something DOES get jammed in the ejection tunnel of this rifle?

Eightball
January 13, 2007, 02:06 AM
I know it is like asking "what happens if a potatoe ends up in my truck's exhaust?" but what if something DOES get jammed in the ejection tunnel of this rifle?Easy--you have a quickly cooked potato.

Dienekes
January 13, 2007, 02:30 AM
Nice to see someone thinking outside the box. Probably why we bought a Sub-2000 which is downright clever.

I think I have the rifle angle pretty well covered these day, but with the 18" barrel this could make a pretty decent CQB rifle with power (shorter than an M4) , and with the long 32 inch barrel it is just about the same OAL as the M14--but lots more potential with the same cartridge.

If it will perform with FAL-like reliability we will really have something here.

rockstar.esq
January 13, 2007, 03:41 AM
Having manhandled the FN .223 bullpup I came away unimpressed by the enormous forend. The Kel Tec design here looks far more useable in that respect. I too lusted after the snubbie M1A's but they weigh a metric ton and cost more that I think they should. By taking on the .308 Winchester I think some unconventional people like mesself are more inclined to check it out because unlike the tacticoolers I'm thinking that it'd be awesome as a hunting rifle. With less weight than a model 94 and more barrel length than most target rifles it really represents a great balance for a hunter. Like others here I hope it's reliable but I hope it's 2 MOA capable. As for worrying about chamber checking and clearance drills, I guess I'm unconcerned because my P32 has never failed to do anything I told it to do for something like 200 rounds. I figure I'm smart enough to learn whatever I might need to know about handling a new gun. So between my positive experience with Kel tec's guns and my own self reliance I'm expecting this new rifle will be a wonderfull thing!

Bigfoot
January 13, 2007, 03:46 PM
I think that they got it just about right. I'm really impressed with the short LOP and the trigger linkage. I'd like it to weigh about a pound less though, hopefully the production guns will be a bit lighter. With the 8.1 lb unscoped weight it's a bit heavy for a woods hunting gun but it would make one heckuva front door gun.

I've read rumours of a possible 5.56 version in the future. It should be light enough to make a fine woods gun but the cartridge isn't powerful enough for deer/hogs.

Powerful but heavy vs nice-n-light but too weak for big game. We need a tweener. Seems to me that Kel-Tec could sell tons of rifles if they also chambered the 5.56mm bullpup in 6.5 Grendel.:)



Big thumbs up to Kel-Tec for building a bullpup from the ground up using a nice, short action and a well thought out trigger. :)

Reginhild
January 13, 2007, 03:54 PM
I agree with you Bigfoot, a 6.5 Grendel version would be nice!

The 32" barrel version would be interesting in 6.5 G if their action can handle more than 50K psi as in the AR versions. Higher pressures with a longer barrel in 6.5 G could mean .264 winmag or 6.5 Remington mag performance from a nice short cartridge!

Caimlas
January 13, 2007, 05:34 PM
I'm all giddy with anticipation, now - I've been waiting for ages for a bullpup that looks and works just like this! But, alas, three things:

It's not coming out until 2008, so:
- It will likely have very high demand due to the elections and potential bans and
- It will have a very high initial demand and likely a roughly 1-year waiting period unless you get lucky
- Bullpups may have already been banned by 2008

Snappy_13
January 13, 2007, 06:12 PM
im not a huge fan of bullpups either

armoredman
January 13, 2007, 08:00 PM
The price tag leaves me out. I was hoping for a Kel Tec sized price tag.:(

RockyMtnTactical
January 13, 2007, 08:06 PM
I just barely saw this thing... Wow... This is impressive! I may just have to buy one of these!!

This years shot show seems to have more than usual.

Wes Janson
January 13, 2007, 10:50 PM
The question is what sort of stoppages this rifle will exhibit. I'm actually more concerned about the fact that with the prototype I handled, it was necessary to really pull the charging handle all the way to the absolute rear to get it to cock the hammer, before dropping the bolt. In the event of a stoppage, I imagine that immediate action will be to drop mag, attempt to rack the bolt, and then turn upside down to check inside the magwell. If something is wrong it should be immediately obvious..or at least I'd hope. I suspect part of the long wait time is going to be for them to test these rifles extensively specifically in order to find that out.

One of the things I can predict will absolutely positively need to change is the bolt release. I think they'll move it somewhat and increase the size of the controls considerably, it's obvious they just hadn't gotten to that part yet.

As for the weight...the Carbine might be 8 pounds, but it certainly doesn't feel like it. The balance is phenomenal, although a loaded magazine might well change that somewhat.

If something gets jammed in the ejection tunnel, whatever's behind it is going to shove it out. It'd have to be really strongly wedged into the tube for it to stop completely, in which case you'd have to knock out the two pins, and knock the stock down to get access to the tube. Obviously, stoppages for this rifle aren't going to be quite like those of anything else before it, but I'd hold off on worries until they've actually been tested out fairly extensively.

Stiletto Null
January 13, 2007, 11:23 PM
As far as I know, there are six WA-2000s in existence.

And one guy has all of them.

Anyway, all you naysayers...

1. $2000 is estimated MSRP. Kel-Tec's guns usually wind up selling for around 70% MSRP, so that's $1400 street. I'll be a killjoy and say that a realistic street price will be around $1600.

2. A new DSA FAL will be around $1200 for a standard rifle. No para or Tactical stuff. A JLD PTR-91 long rifle will be significantly cheaper, but the things are heavy and long. A bone-stock M1A will also be around $1200. You can forget getting something as short as the Kel-Tec without having to deal with NFA shenanigans, and then you just gave up just about every ballistic advantage .308 has over anything else. The base configuration will be higher than the base configurations of other ".308 selfloading rifles"...but the base configuration will be on a completely different level from the other rifles.

3. The ejection concept works QUITE well—see FN F2000. Kel-Tec is also using the bolt carrier to ram casings forward. If anything, it ought to be more robust than the FN setup, simply because cases go in and out along one line (bottom to top) instead of ejecting to one side like they do on the F2000.

Nightcrawler
January 13, 2007, 11:35 PM
As I've said, the Kel-Tec carbine with an 18" barrel is roughly the same overall length as an OSW FAL with an 11" barrel. Same length, seven more inches of barrel. As is, the 18" carbine is about a foot shorter than my 16.25" FAL carbine, with 2" more barrel.

Of course, you can't put a folding stock on a bullpup, but I've never been big on folders anyway.

I'm one of the board's leading advocates of FAL carbines. But if this Kel-Tec rifle is reliable and rugged, it could very well push my FAL back to reserve status. (Or, since I'll have my ultra-modern rifle, it might give me cause to rebuild my FAL into that 18" faux-Israeli light barrel carbine I've always liked... :cool: ).

If it's not rugged or reliable, then oh well. Here's hoping that Kel-Tec, by pushing the release date so far back, plans to make sure the thing runs like a Swiss watch before it hits the market.

The only thing I'd add would be folding back-up iron sights. They make folding sights were the front and rear can be on the same plane now, right? It used to be that the front sights were taller.

Lebben-B
January 14, 2007, 08:38 AM
The one thing in the picture that really caught my attention was the type and location of the mag release. A "flapper" type mag release located behind the mag would definitely be less awkward than a release bar forward of the mag a la the AUG.

Mike

Bigfoot
January 14, 2007, 06:39 PM
Long barrels let you wring out the most from a cartridge but it won't work miracles.

From Kel-Tecs RFB rifle brochure:

"The improved ballistic efficiency of the RFB rifle derives from a very long barrel increasing muzzle velocity over 10% when compared with similar sized rifles.

The long range improvement is even more pronounced with a heavier bullet at normal velocity. An M110 SASS shoots a 175 grain projectile at 2500 fps. The RFB will fire a 210 grain bullet at the same velocity, resulting in 65% more knockdown energy at 1000 m. At the same distance the wind deflection is reduced to 72%. This ballistic performance is superior to a traditional 300 Win Magnum and closely approaches a 338 Lapua."

This is only true if "traditional 300 Win Magnum" means 180 hunting bullets at 3000 fps and 210 VLD target bullets are used in the .308. If the same bullets are used the 24" barreled 300WM still has a 300 fps advantage and the comparison isn't even close. "and closely approaches a 338 Lapua." Um, no, it doesn't. Now if they had compared to the 06, ah but the 06 doesn't say Magnum now does it.:rolleyes:

I just wish manufacturers would knock off these these dubious comparisons and tired, Slick Willie style word parsings.

"The 32" barrel version would be interesting in 6.5 G if their action can handle more than 50K psi as in the AR versions. Higher pressures with a longer barrel in 6.5 G could mean .264 winmag or 6.5 Remington mag performance from a nice short cartridge!"

No, the 6.5 Grendel runs out of gas even with a 32" barrel. My software only gives it 2800 fps with the 120 BT even with 58,000 cup pressure. Again, 260 Rem/6.5x55 territory yes but not 264 Win or 6.5 Rem mag.

I like both the 6.5G and this new gun but lets keep it real please.;)

Nightcrawler
January 14, 2007, 08:08 PM
That's why I keep saying they need to scale this hog up for long action cartridges. With bullpups you lose the ridiculous overall length that a loooong barrel normally gives.

.300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag would be interesting choices. What could you get out of either of those with a 32" barrel?

Drakejake
January 14, 2007, 09:38 PM
This rifle sounds highly intriguing and innovative. But do you want rounds going off right by your ear? If I could get beyond that issue, I might be more interested. And have you seen the blown-up SU-16s?

Drakejake

Wes Janson
January 15, 2007, 08:15 PM
They said there's metal between the chamber and the stock, but I, too, would agree that adding a bit more protection would be a very good idea.

Ignore all the various crap about long-range uses, and alternate calibers, and focus on the usefulness of the Carbine. IMO, that's where the real advantage will lie, at least for the next 18 months or so until they start looking at other calibers.

Stiletto Null
January 15, 2007, 08:19 PM
A pair of 1/16" steel sheets/plates, apparently. So there's stuff in between.

That would be enough to stop pieces of blown-up case, and considering how kabooms generally work, that would be plenty to stop a (relatively) slow-moving bolt group, which would be moving toward your shoulder (against recoil spring force, too) anyway.

Mumbles_45
January 15, 2007, 09:24 PM
As far as I know, there are six WA-2000s in existence.

And one guy has all of them.


From Wikipedia:
The rifle was produced from the late 70s though November 1988 when production was ceased due to high production costs. The final retail cost for a base rifle in 1988 was in the range of $9,000 to $12,500.

176 units were produced with only 15 units of the WA 2000 exported to the U.S., 11 of which are owned by Earl J. Sheehan Jr., President of Walther U.S. and due to its rarity it can be worth over $75,000 to $80,000 in the open market.

geekWithA.45
January 15, 2007, 10:09 PM
{looks @ PDF}

Eh. dunno. Maybe.

{shrugs}

Lobotomy Boy
January 30, 2007, 05:37 PM
The only thing I'd add would be folding back-up iron sights.

That's the one negative thing I saw about the gun, too. It would be easy enough to mount an A.R.M.S.-type rear sight, but I'm not sure how (or where) you would mount the front sight?

Not having B.U.I.S. would be enough to keep me from using some sort of electronic sight. I'd opt for a low-power standard optical sight with the widest possible field of view.

I can see spending up to $1,400 for this gun.

JShirley
January 30, 2007, 05:57 PM
Maybe this is a silly idea, but I wonder if KT might consider a 7.62x39/AK mag version? I'd sure as hell buy an 18" version, if they did...to compliment the 24" .308 BR version! :)

John

Bigfoot
January 30, 2007, 09:55 PM
Not silly at all. They should make a 5.56 action length bullpup and offer 6.8mm, 6.5mm and 7.62x39 versions. They should all work with AR style magazines since C Products makes 7.62x39 AR mags now. The main advantages would be less cost, weight, recoil and ammo cost.

Black Snowman
January 30, 2007, 11:49 PM
How about 416 Whisper :evil:

Don't Tread On Me
January 31, 2007, 12:43 AM
This thing isn't even out yet, and most of you have already begun suggesting that it should be chambered in a variety of calibers, some of which are rare or not widely used.



Folks, if you can't get it done with .308 then:

1] there's something wrong with your aim.
2] you're engaging the wrong target
3] you should be running instead of fighting
4] .300wm, 7mmUM etc...isn't going to save you from what .308 failed to do.
5] you're doomed.

Still 2 Many Choices!?
January 31, 2007, 01:47 AM
If they chambered the S2000 in .308 I would be all over it since I don't see it doing anything that the AR family of rifles can't do(compactness with MV intact aside), I would be all over it, and what do you know? Somebody finally did:eek: :what: :cool: :evil: :p !! Since Kel-Tec isn known for standing behind it's products, I'll take an 18-21" barreled version as soon as they ship:neener: !!

Still 2 Many Choices!?

JShirley
January 31, 2007, 06:22 AM
Folks, if you can't get it done with .308 then:


Respectfully, there are different calibers for a reason. I didn't complain about .308: I like .308. I have a .308 "battle rifle", in fact, and I plan on getting a KT in .308. Woohoo.

Now, a x39mm version would have less weight, less blast for barrel length, and ammo would be cheaper. Can I "get it done" with MORE gun? Well, that's kind of a silly question, isn't it? If you paid attention, you would see that I forsee different missions for a BR and carbine version- which only makes sense. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

J

jonsidneyb
January 31, 2007, 07:17 AM
They did it in the right caliber. I have a caliber preference as well. I want .260 remingtion. Here is why they didn't do it in 5.56, there are already 5.56 bullpups out there and none of them are in the price range you want this to be. There is also sort of a 7.62x39 bullpup as well.

There are no bullpups available in the .308 winchester/7.62 action length. It made sence, the unfilled hole. I was at shot. This is not built like the other keltecs, this things is built solid.

jonsidneyb
January 31, 2007, 07:24 AM
Those of you wanting this in Grendel. You do realize the only reason the Grendel was created was to get High BC bullets into a magazine what 5.56 once lived and it will still reguire magazine mods. The 260 Remington will out do the Grendel with the same bullets in a really big way. I am on a benchrest shooting forum and a bunch of the guys are starting to use .260 for 1000 yard matches with the really hight BC bullets. I don't see the need for a reduced size one of these so you can have the Grendel, a barrel changed can make this thing into a Grendel magnum.

Lobotomy Boy
January 31, 2007, 09:50 AM
For long-range shooting that requires a high degree of accuracy, I have my Tikka T3. For shooting .223-caliber ammo, I have my AR. I have no rifle that will punch a bunch of big holes through a target in a tight, close-quarters situation, and do so quickly.

If this gun is as reliable and trouble free as the PLR-16, it will be a worthwhile addition to the gun safe.

slicknickns
January 31, 2007, 02:10 PM
Is it California legal?

JesseL
January 31, 2007, 03:06 PM
Is it California legal?

I'm pretty sure that rifle + semi-auto + detachable magazine + pistol grip = not allowed in California

shappy0869
February 14, 2007, 06:14 PM
Right click and save as...http://www.kel-tec.com/videos/rfbteaser.wmv

Bigfoot
February 14, 2007, 10:06 PM
Now THAT'S a hog gun.

Baaadaaazzz, thanks for posting.

Wes Janson
February 14, 2007, 10:17 PM
Was it just me, or did anyone else think that almost seemed like 2-round bursts there towards the end?

Going to be really weird getting used to hearing "bang" and not always having the brass immediately leave the weapon.

jerkface11
February 14, 2007, 10:18 PM
No it'll be a good hog gun when someone switches it over to .358win or .338fed.

KaceCoyote
February 14, 2007, 10:32 PM
I'd buy one if I wasnt a college student, seems like my ideal rifle. Small, handy, corrosion resistant, should be accurate and powerful.

Bigfoot
February 14, 2007, 10:49 PM
Was it just me, or did anyone else think that almost seemed like 2-round bursts there towards the end?

Yeah the second guy was double tapping once he got the rythem down.

Going to be really weird getting used to hearing "bang" and not always having the brass immediately leave the weapon.

Somehow I think I could force myself to get used to that. :)

EdLaver
February 14, 2007, 11:05 PM
Holy damn I MUST own this baby. Man I hope it goes on sale b4 a ban in inacted.

clange
February 15, 2007, 12:16 AM
That looks awesome but $1000-$1400 for a kel-tec? It will need to earn quite the reputation before I pay that and put my face on top of the .308.

Don't get me wrong, I own 3 kel-tecs. I LOVE my sub-2000, I despise my P-11, and my P-32 does exactly what its supposed to do (be small and go bang). None of them were over $300 though. If they want to toss a grand on top of that its going to have to be freaking amazing quality.

Thefabulousfink
February 15, 2007, 03:03 PM
HOT DAMN! HOT DAMN! HOT DAMN!

Time to take down that poster of Carmen Electra and start dreaming about Kel-Tec when I go to sleep every night.:D

From the video, it looks like the charging handle also clears the ejection tube. And there seems to be a slot in the tube that you could stick something in to clear jams. It is looking like clearing jams won't be the nightmare that I was worried about.

romma
February 15, 2007, 04:58 PM
Woow! What a barker...

DReicht
February 15, 2007, 05:04 PM
IDK Much about bullpups but what is the deal with that ejection system?

Thefabulousfink
February 15, 2007, 05:46 PM
It is a new forward ejecting system to keep brass from ejecting into the cheek of left-handed shooter (a problem with the bullpup concept). The new FN bullpup has a similar system that ejects downward in front of the magazine. The Kel-Tec ejects up through a tube above the barrel and out the front (see vid and pics at the begining of this thread). These are new designs and it will be interesting to see how they hold up to use/abuse, but the video looks promising.

Kevlarman
February 15, 2007, 06:08 PM
Heh, the rifle ejects brass like a bunny poops; it just dribbles out the little hole at the end. :p

shappy0869
February 15, 2007, 07:01 PM
Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory, and it seems like the RFB almost seems like it was built to order. I mean, here we have a company that is not known for expensive guns, yet it has produced one. It is not known for bullpups or the .308 yet it has produced one. The prototype pictures and video seem to show a product that is very far along in the development process, especially considering that the company has said sales are still a year away. Producing a rifle such as this is an expensive gamble for a relatively small company.

Anyone think there is already a customer in mind for this platform and the reason sales are so far away is that they have initial production already earmarked?

Bart Noir
February 15, 2007, 10:04 PM
The FN P90 has downward ejection, but the FN2000 does the bunny-poop ejection.

I asked a man about whether his FN2000 ejected with the muzzle raised up high. He said yes. I didn't get into the question of how he safetly tested that but just hoped he was drilling new woodpecker holes high up a tree.

Bart Noir

1911user
February 15, 2007, 10:13 PM
Anyone think there is already a customer in mind for this platform and the reason sales are so far away is that they have initial production already earmarked?

Kel-tec has a reputation of needing to tweak new products after release. This is a new, unforgiving market for them and they can't afford to let anything except a thoroughly debugged rifle leave the plant. These are not economy rifles. It is a big gamble.

mrcpu
February 16, 2007, 02:29 AM
I don't think the FN2000 ejection is 1 shot, 1 eject, looks like it just lines 'em up in the tube, and pushes 'em out the end. Perhaps depending on how much gas gets vented into the tube determines how many poop out...

If you watch the video, it seems like that to me...

mordechaianiliewicz
February 16, 2007, 07:35 AM
Kel-Tec is and always has been (since inception) a pro-gun company. This rifle is a combo of two things.

#1. A bullpup .308, which no one else ever even thought about it seems.

#2. A civie legal rifle made for the shooter, SHTF type guy in mind.

If this rifle comes out at $1500 or less, I'm gonna find a way to get one. Simple as that. More than that, I dunno.

Would a .223 version be a good idea? Of course. But they want the .308 out there to corner that market. With the ATF breathing down the necks of people who want HK, FAL, etc. type guns (with parts kits regs), this is a way to get around those fraudulent interpretations.

Now, if KelTec is able to get the rifle to around $700, they will simply own the market, and that's all there is to it. They probably would sell upwards of a million rifles simply on general principle, and if the Dems got stupid and talked about a ban, Kel-Tec would probably have 3,000,000 or more out before the ban closed them down.

PaladinX13
February 16, 2007, 11:03 AM
Since the forward eject is one of the major (in the name, even) features I'm curious how it handles grit, grime, and out and out obstruction.

I'm not intending to dunk the rifle in the swamp and expect it to come up shooting, but a lot of people are interested in that level of "reliability" (perhaps more accurate: neglect, abuse, or extreme circumstances?).

I understand there's a one-way catch that keeps the brass moving in one direction (and allows you to fire upwards without a hitch). But in the unlikely event that the catch fails, is stuck, or whatever... anyone understand the mechanism enough to analyze what would happen?

Lobotomy Boy
February 16, 2007, 11:51 AM
I'm definitely buying one.

PercyShelley
February 16, 2007, 02:17 PM
Now, if KelTec is able to get the rifle to around $700, they will simply own the market, and that's all there is to it.


Amen to that!

I need to take a cold shower now.

mordechaianiliewicz
February 16, 2007, 03:30 PM
Finally a gunmaker noticed an unfilled niche of the folks in this country (of whom there are millions) who would like a tacticool, badaaasss rifle like this. And, because they are pro-gun (unlike HK, who could have owned this market for years now if they weren't against making semi-auto rifles for civilians), it'll be out there for all of us. As has been asked before, "How much will it cost?"

As for the whole bunny poop issue, all I can say is that parts can and do break on all guns. It may look funny, but this is one of the better ideas I've seen for handling the lefty bullpup issue. And as I said, if under $1500, I'm definitely gonna buy it.

doubleg
February 16, 2007, 03:55 PM
I would DEFINATLEY buy one if its around 700.

Kimber1911_06238
February 16, 2007, 03:59 PM
looks cool but for over $1,000 I'd just buy a socom

doubleg
February 16, 2007, 04:08 PM
Tell me that isn't the BEST all purpose rifle around. Short enough to use inside a building, long enough barrel to get far accurate shots, a heavy caliber suitable for large game, simple design, and if god answers my prayers a price around 700 :eek: :D .

Wes Janson
February 16, 2007, 09:16 PM
Price is going to be double that. Expect $1500. Which just means you have to save for twice as long ;)

But in the unlikely event that the catch fails, is stuck, or whatever... anyone understand the mechanism enough to analyze what would happen?

I didn't look at it too closely, but from what I recall it's just a small tab that sits just inside the ejection tube, above the chamber. Not sure if it was spring loaded, or made from a bent piece of plastic/metal leaf spring. Obviously, if it breaks and you're shooting uphill, it might pose a potential problem, but I'm not too concerned about it. There's no way to tell without removing the detent and shooting it upwards, but I almost suspect that the older piece of brass will be shoved back forward and into the tube by the newly extracted piece. I'm sure Kel-Tec is messing around with it right now to find out for sure...but it's not like you can't figure out ways to cause malfunctions in every other type of rifle out there. When it happens, jams will probably be of a different nature than we're used to, but the real question is if they occur more or less frequently than on other rifles.

mordechaianiliewicz
February 16, 2007, 10:07 PM
I think Wes Janson is largely correct here.

Kel-Rec could obviously put the rifle into production today if it wanted. But, if any bugs came up, we'd have a THR in a couple of years about that "silly bullpup" from KelTec.

The video was cool. And the rifle looks good, bunny poop and all. But it was also fired under the very controlled circumstances of a range. If this rifle is meant to fill the .308 bullpup niche of SHTF concerned shooters, that means alot of guys are gonna get this thing, shoot it in "field" conditions, and maybe clean it every other time or so. Kel Tec wants to be sure it will be able to stand that.

Am I likely to shoot upwards at the range, or on some land? No. But, if the SHTF did happen, I might and I would want the gun to work correctly. And while I noticed that chambering a round seemed to clear the ejection tube, the gun is functionally a single shot in upward fire without the ability of the rifle to "poop" rounds out in sustained fire upwards.

I like the idea of them waiting a year. Plenty of time for Kel Tec employees to drive to the Everglades, and attempt to perforate flora and fauna, and abuse the gun to see how much it can take. On that note, I'm about to look on the Kel-Tec website for employment oportunities, and look at cost of living in the area. :neener: :cool: :p

Kevlarman
February 17, 2007, 12:27 AM
There was an amateur video out there of an owner with an SU-16 going through a 30-round magazine, rapid fire, smashing the icy out of a frozen pond, throwing the gun in said pond, and then fishing it out, clearing the action of water, and then rapid firing another mag through it, without any failures.

I don't think the average Joe would go through those kind of conditions when the SHTF, but it's nice to know the guns can take it.

mordechaianiliewicz
February 17, 2007, 03:01 AM
Wow. The SU-16 was capable of going through that, and keeping on shooting like a champ, I have every confidence that this rifle will do just as well if not better once they have the kinks worked out.

Oh, and by the way, it depends on the "amount" of feces that has struck the oscilator as to what the rifle might have to go through. If it was a low level SHTF like Katrina, no stresses. If it is a TEOTWAWKI incident of massive civil unrest from a depression worldwide leading into a horror world of rival warlords, you want a rifle that works in all circumstances with maximum reliability, and is concealable enough to fit in a backpack (sounds like this bad boy to be sure [atleast the carbine anyway]) yet reach out to atleast 500 yards away.

If Kel-Tec has everything from Katrina to the end of the world as we know it in mind, this rifle will be worth it. (And, if I were Kel-Tec, once I'm done with the .308, I'd work on a .223 to market to police and military. I bet no matter what, their rifle would be cheaper than the FN2000)

Thin Black Line
February 17, 2007, 09:35 AM
Count me in even if it's $1500.

JShirley
February 17, 2007, 11:08 AM
IF this rifle is what I think it will be, I'll buy one if they're less than $2000.

mordechaianiliewicz
February 17, 2007, 08:40 PM
So, there it is. Kel-Tec better come out with this pretty soon, we all appear to be hanging on the edge of our seats.

Dr.Rob
February 17, 2007, 09:56 PM
If it works, it's a rifle I'd be happy to call Vera. :D

doubleg
February 19, 2007, 08:06 PM
Well from the images of the innerworkings of the rifle it appears as if the cartidges are pushed into the "bunny poop tube" with as much force as they are pushed into the barrel. So functioning at an awkward angle should not be a issue. Also even if it is, a pump action shotgun can jam if held and pumped in an awkward angle. But, still it performs extremley well at what it's used for.:)

Lobotomy Boy
February 20, 2007, 09:26 AM
I think the technical term, according to Kel-Tec literature, is "bunny poop chute."

Thin Black Line
February 20, 2007, 10:01 AM
Count me in even if it's $1500.
and
IF this rifle is what I think it will be, I'll buy one if they're less than $2000.


Come on, J, don't start the bidding too high this early :D

armoredman
February 20, 2007, 10:54 AM
I'm out -can't even begin to afford anything at $1,500, or I'd have an FAL already.

roo_ster
February 20, 2007, 12:51 PM
I can honestly say I did not see that one coming.

That has to be one of the neatest exercises in firearms engineering in the last 25 years.

I have two kids & a wife to support, so I will not come out & say, "I'LL BUY ONE,'" but that is one intriguing weapon.

I especially like the idea of it being chambered in 7.62NATO/.308Win. They can always come back later and chamber it in a varmint round (5.56mm). The idea of one of these pupiies in .260Rem gets me mildly giddy.

I hope Kel-Tec does it right and hits this one out of the park.

roo_ster
February 20, 2007, 12:59 PM
(Just saw the video.)

Oh, now, that ain't right!

Controllable double-taps with 7.62mm? In a super-shorty package?

There are some sadistic pups at Kel-Tec to release the video and then say, "You gotta wait a year."

FWIW, I do not want to be the guy in the next lane when a RFB owner lets loose. Muzzle blast will likely be fugly.

JesseL
February 20, 2007, 01:09 PM
FWIW, I do not want to be the guy in the next lane when a RFB owner lets loose. Muzzle blast will likely be fugly.

It shouldn't be any worse than any other 18" 308 (and significantly less offensive than something like the SOCOM 16). The 24" and 32" barrels should be almost pleasant.

DMK
February 20, 2007, 02:03 PM
I have a 17" FAL with a brake. It's loud.

That rifle has what looks like a Phantom flash suppressor, so it's probably not noticeably worse than your typical AR carbine.

After watching that video, I want one of those bad! I'll have to get me a bigger piggy bank for my pennies. :)

shappy0869
February 20, 2007, 02:38 PM
I think almost everyone agrees that this is one cool rifle. Since it comes with no built in sights, the obvious question becomes what kind should be mounted? Only rule, it can't cost more than the rifle itself.

Given the fact that even in the 18" carbine model, it should give excellent longer range performance (beyond that of a 5.56), my vote goes for the Elcan SpecterDR (http://specterdr.elcan.com/DFOVDemo.html).

http://specterdr.elcan.com/SpecterDR1.pdf

http://www.defense-update.com/images/specterDR.jpg

falling leaves
February 20, 2007, 02:44 PM
I was scheming for a way to pile up enough cash for an M1A. It looks to me like everyone's estimates put this rifle at about the same pricing, and if that is the case then I am now definitely scheming for a way to pile up enough cash for a Kel-Tec. Kinda seems wrong to say that, doesn't it? K-T usually being at the lower end of the price scale and all.

Really though, this thing should fill the same role as a SOCOM with better bullet velocities and arguably better handling. Especially for those of use that love the bullpup idea and shoot lefty... As long as it works it should be priced about the same or even a little more (free market capitalism being what it is). I think it would be great if they could bring it out for much less, but there has to be a fair number of parts and machining operations going into the construction - those don't always come cheap. I have a good friend that dropped over $1700 on a 300 WM bolt gun. This has to be harder to build than that boltie.

I think this could be a great product, I really hope they execute it well and get it to market, and I am increasingly impressed with Kel-Tec as a company. I may even have to go buy something of theirs while I'm waiting to show my support.

Lobotomy Boy
February 20, 2007, 11:00 PM
Shappy, how much is that Elcan Spectre? I want one for my AR.

shappy0869
February 21, 2007, 01:27 PM
If you can find one, I believe they are in the $1500 range. Here is some info on it: http://www.weaponforums.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=282964

Thin Black Line
February 22, 2007, 10:32 AM
There are some sadistic pups at Kel-Tec to release the video and then say, "You gotta wait a year."


Actually, a great marketing strategy, gives them time to tool up and stock
a significant pallet or two of weapons, and work out any bugs in the few
prototypes they made. I would imagine these prototypes will find their way
to a couple well-known gun writers who can have stories in print with nice
glossy photos about a month or two before FFLs can start actually placing
orders.

I would also try to market them at the government buyers shows. It wouldn't
take a very big contract for this to do well with a small company.

Well, at least that's how I would do it.

Lobotomy Boy
February 22, 2007, 10:41 AM
I can imagine a lot of military applications for this gun. It would be a cheap way to supplement the M4, giving the old Stoner gun a new lease on life without developing and approving a new caliber of ammo. It might only be a stopgap measure until the next weapon system is developed, but it would be a good stopgap measure that would buy a lot of time with relatively little cost. Imagine what a contract for 100,000 guns would mean to a company like Kel-Tec.

My biggest worry is that this gun will be illegal by the time the consumer version is released.

PercyShelley
February 22, 2007, 10:49 AM
Er, it's more comperable to the M14, especially the bullpup variant Israelis field.

Depending on how accurate the target model is, I could see it making a good DMR. It doesn't even need to be that accurate. Look at how popular Dragunovs are worldwide, and those shoot what, 2 MOA?

If the new AWB passes, this will go down with the Calico as one of the truly interesting designs shot down by congressional stupidity.

Lobotomy Boy
February 22, 2007, 10:56 AM
Percy, the gun can't very well supplement the M14 for U.S. forces since only a few specialized units use the M14, and they don't really need another .308. The key word here is "supplement." This gun could give U.S. forces using .223-caliber guns the option of a lightwieght, compact .308 to supplement the .223s.

shappy0869
February 22, 2007, 12:16 PM
Based on the diagrams and the descriptions of the operating system and the general layout, does anyone care to venture an opinion as to the reliability of the RFB? I know this is not an easy question to answer and it will all be based on conjecture and opinion, but I will settle for that right now (do I have a choice?).

Yes308
February 22, 2007, 01:01 PM
These guys already have the preorder available for the Kel - Tec RFB - http://www.impactguns.com/cgi-bin/affiliates/clickthru.cgi?id=Ozberkmen&page=http://www.impactguns.com/store/KEL-762.html

phoglund
February 22, 2007, 01:13 PM
Well...well...I don't know what to say. Nice concept! If the execution is as good it will be a very popular rifle indeed. Now to figure out how to get one. They are going to be very hard to get a hold of for quite a long time I'd think.

Cesiumsponge
February 26, 2007, 01:46 AM
I caught wind of this on another thread but didn't realize there was a video floating about until I found a dedicated thread for the Keltec bullpup.

Even at a guesstimated range of $1500 street, I'd definitely go for one because there is nothing else like it on the market, and I don't have anything over .223 rifle-wise yet...but then again, I'm irresponsible with money when it comes to neat firearms. I already put myself in the poor house this year by signing up for one of the first limited edition MSAR STG-556 "Steyr AUG" clones.

I guess I'll have to chew on instant noodles through next year as well and hope Magpul delays the Masada a while longer or I'm going to have to sell a kidney :D

Doggieman
March 14, 2007, 11:24 PM
Not sure how I feel about the ejection. It doesn't toss them out one by one but the cases can build up inside then come spilling out. Seems like that would be distracting. I would be compulsively and constantly pointing the rifle down and shaking it to make sure there was nothing left inside. That's just me. Too chaotic.

Zerstoerer
April 3, 2007, 08:08 PM
I see this as an advantage - if you only need to shoot one or two shots you can block the ejection tube on purpose and not leave any brass/evidence lying around...

If everyone is out buying FAL magazines - leave some for me.

Lobotomy Boy
April 3, 2007, 08:15 PM
I bought a PLR-16 last month, and it is a spectacular gun. It was a little stiff for the first 200 rounds, but once everything bedded in it has worked flawlessly with all my mags. I couldn't be happier with it... for a $465 gun. If I paid three times that (or more), I'd expect a heck of a lot higher level of fit and finish.

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