Correia at SHOT show

Okay, real fast. Posting this from hotel computer.

Coolest new rifle at the show. KelTec. Forward ejecting, .308 Bullpup that takes FAl magazines. This thing blew me away. It is awesome. Coming in 2008. Price will be spendy.

2nd coolest. Anzio Ironworks 14.5. For when a .50 is just for sissies. 110 pounds of fury. Effective out to 4,000 meters. :)

Lots of other cool gear. Will post more as time allows. Now have to go back to the show.

Kel-Tec is my new hero. That rifle, as pictured, is so awesome I want to cry. I was almost blinded by its majesty. :D

Do me a favor? Hobble over to the S&W booth and see what they've got going on.

What kind of guy wants to carry a futuristic bullpup rifle and a double-action revolver? THIS kind, that's who! :p

What would the cost of those rounds run? Two miles range?

Doc2005

14.5x115mm Soviet (http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg01-e.htm), I'm guessing. It's twice the cartridge .50BMG is.

Good luck finding ammo, but man, what a punch! Over .50 Cal, though. Needs to be a registered Destructive Device.

Correia,
Do all of us Ruger fans a favor. Drop by their booth and ask them about the NEW VAQUERO in .45LC and using +P and hot hunting loads. I keep hearing a lot of "internet gun experts" telling everyone that you cannot shoot hot loads in the New Vaqueros, and I'd like to hear it straight from the horses mouth. For the life of me, I cannot imagine ANY gun mfgr. in this modern litigeous society making a gun that will blow up by shooting loads that one can buy off the shelf at any gunshop.
If you do get a real answer from Ruger, can you place it as a sticky under "Revolvers"??

Anyone got a link to that .308 Keltec? I can't seem to find info on their site.

I am not at the SHOT show...though I would like to be...just like last year I am at home scouring the internet for rumor, pictures, innuendo, press releases and whatever other goodies people can communicate from the site.

I agree on the Kel-Tec rifle...seems a very cool design.

Here is a link to the Kel-Tec owner's group where the rifle is being discussed. You'll find some pics in there and a link to the advertising brochure they are handing out at the show.

Kel-Tec High Efficiency Bullpup Rifle (http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=499)

Very cool that they went with a pre-existing magazine. But 32" barrel? That seems ridiculous. Anybody have figures for 7.62 or .308 out of a 32" tube?

I'd prefer an SU-14. Like the SU-16, but in 7.62.

Kel-Tec rifle

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/DSCF0483.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/DSCF0486.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/DSCF0488.jpg






RTFM

Has Keltec given a ballpark figure on the price?

so street price in the $1500 range

Found a lin kto the .PDF above for better viewing.


http://www.kel-tec.com/images/downloads/RFB_Flyer_SHOT_2007_web.pdf


RTFM

So, that's made my decision between an FN and an AR that much more difficult. Great. :banghead: :)

Left handed revolvers from Charter Arms - neat. $2000 - too much!!

Kel-Tec .308-
I wonder how many time it will have to be sent back home before it runs right?

Correia, any sign of the new Galils at the Century booth?

-jagd

IT says its gas operated, but wheres the gas tube/piston assembly/DI tube? OR is this...blowback :what: Can you get more information about this please?

http://www.artworkbyandy.com/20-mm.jpg


One bad boy!

Ooh, varmit rifle.:evil:

@ Nightcrawler: sez on Gunblast (Day 1 Report) that S&W is doing a run of "Model 27 Registered Magnum" revos...

2nd coolest. Anzio Ironworks 14.5

Does the Anzio have some BATF exemption letter to allow the large bore, or do you need to get your DD stamp?

I know that JD Jones has built several rifles over .50, and gotten exemption letters for "sporting use".

-MV

What is the point of that Kel-Tec at $1500-$2000? An AR-10 or M1A costs the same :scrutiny:

If they got the price under a grand they'd have something ... otherwise I don't expect them to sell many.

Kel Tec made a what? For the love of all that is holy... they finally made my rifle!:evil:

That Kel-Tec is sexy. I want one......NOW!!!!

Mmmm, 20mm rifle. Ammo is what....$200 a round. Add another $200 for the tax stamp if it doesn't get exempted. So $400 a round, probably close to $10,000 for the rifle yet I still find myself wanting one.

ScottsGT: go to a gun shop. Compare the size of the cylinders of the Ruger New Vaquero, any previous Ruger model built on the 44Mag-size frame (SuperBlackhawk, "Old Vaquero, etc) and any Colt SAA or clone.

The New Vaq cylinder is shorter than prior Rugers and smaller - near identical to the Colt.

Next, go to Buffalo Bore's website where they list 45LC+P up to 325gr/1,300fps:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#45colt

Quoting:

These Heavy .45 Colt +P loads are safe in all LARGE FRAME Ruger revolvers.
(includes Blackhawk, Super Blackhawk, all pre-2005 Vaquero, Bisley, Redhawk)

These Heavy .45 Colt +P loads are NOT intended for the New Model Vaquero (small frame).

These loads are also safe in all modern Model 1892 leverguns as well as all Winchester & Marlin 1894's

So yeah, Ruger DID do something this stupid. And we agree, it was. They should have stuck with 44Spl, 38-40, 44-40 and 357 on the new mid-frames.

Speaking of expensive rifles, is there something about the bull-pup concept that makes them expensive?

What is the point of that Kel-Tec at $1500-$2000? An AR-10 or M1A costs the same
You do get the niftyness of a bullpup design for maximum barrel at least...

More stuff.

Magpull Masada. .223 rifle. It is THE AWESOME. You guys that want a civvie SCAR, this is actually cooler. I'm going to buy 20 of them.

American made Augs. Better than the original, and you don't have to deal with the Austrians.

Century Galil looks great.

Will try to read this thread, and address some of the other new things people asked about.

No time. Have to keep going.

Century Galil looks great.
Now those are two words you don't see glued together all the time. :evil:

Oh, come now, Correia, what could possibly be so bad about dealing with EastEmpirians?:neener:

*falls on floor laughing*

You do get the niftyness of a bullpup design for maximum barrel at least...
I assume "niftyness" is a new slang term for "crappy trigger"? :neener:

Ahhh but kt's done the trigger on this differently than most bullpups, come to the rifle forum ;)

http://www.kel-tec.com/images/downloads/RFB_Flyer_SHOT_2007_web.pdf

Who knows until they pull the trigger, but it sounds better than the usual at least.

Ok, I know that this project is probably DOA by now, but I still have to ask....

Is there any sign of Advanced Combat System's Hezi sm-1 bullpup? I have been lusting after this .30 carbine bullpup for over a year and it still doesn't seem any closer to a US release.:banghead:

I thought I saw $700 floating around somewhere in cyberspace as the price on that KelTec. For $2000 I'll pass.

I assume "niftyness" is a new slang term for "crappy trigger"?
Hey, they have the best trigger pull metal bars scraping on polymer can provide! :p

That 14.5 is cool! I want one just so I can refer to the .300 Weatherby as my "mouse gun" haha

Well, certainly looks like the little guy (KelTec) came up with something on his own budget that looks more interesting than a lot of major government funded programs over the past twenty years.

Could be something to that...;)

Looks a lot like a Para FAL on the inside, and I am not sure I like that ejection tube, but just seeing something new and interesting makes me happy.

For better or worse $2000 is probably about right for a full featured combat rifle in today's market, inflation tends to do things like that.

Correia,

Any word on pricing on the Century Galil? I think I need one just to get over my Galil lust.

Don't forget to stop by the DSA booth and say high to my boss!

:D

John

After shooting a SAW at KCR this past fall, I'm _really_ wanting a belt-fed .223, even in semi...

Is the New Bullpup from KT the monumental surprise Gaston was going to announce last year?

Some how I don't think a pickatitty rail and a two way mag drop is going to cut it.:scrutiny:

Ammo is what....$200 a round. Add another $200 for the tax stamp if it doesn't get exempted.

Ammo is only a DD if it contains more than 1/4 oz of explosives.

For the life of me, I cannot imagine ANY gun mfgr. in this modern litigeous society making a gun that will blow up by shooting loads that one can buy off the shelf at any gunshop.
If you do get a real answer from Ruger, can you place it as a sticky under "Revolvers"??

Any manufacturer is gonna suggest not shooting anything with more pressure than standard SAAMI spec loads. Too much liabilty for them with the sue happy society we live in. Any loads loaded to a higher pressure than SAAMI specs are labled as such. Even the larger framed Blackhawks were only reccommened to be used with SAAMI spec loads. It's the ammo manufacturers that provide the over spec loads and up to the shooter to know if thier particualar gun can handle them.

American made Augs. Better than the original, and you don't have to deal with the Austrians.

I believe these were at SHOT last year but still haven't materialized for civilians. Who's making/marketing them here?

Ammo is what....$200 a round. Add another $200 for the tax stamp if it doesn't get exempted.

Anzio is reloading them for about $2/round, or so I'm told. Supposedly retail price for loaded ammo is $8/round. So realistically, it's in the same ballpark as a .50 BMG if you're reloading...and at $11,700, the $200 tax stamp and the investment in reloading tools really isn't all that bad. Definitely a whole nother level beyond the big fifty, but by no means unreachable. Definitely cheaper than an MP5/M16/Thompson.

Hey, they have the best trigger pull metal bars scraping on polymer can provide!

Actually, that Kel-Tec's trigger pull was teh h0tness. I'm thinking in the vicinity of 4 pounds, very short distance (my judgement is pretty bad with pull weights though). Put it this way: it was extremely nice, almost too light if anything. You have no idea how badly I want that rifle now, having handled and dry-fired it. When I was there, I heard MSRPs of $2000 for the carbine, $2500 for the Sporter, and $3000 for the Target model, but I have to wonder if the longer models won't wind up being cheaper. Ejection is through a port that is above and offset to the right of the barrel; when racking dummy rounds through the rifle the Kel-Tec employee was throwing the brass forward about a foot or two in front and just slightly to the side. He also demonstrated field-stripping...two pins and almost complete disassembly. I have some slight trepidations about the trigger components, and I can't say as the standard Kel-Tec grip pattern thrills me, but those are really minor complaints.

As far as I'm concerned, screw everything else: of everything I saw today, the Kel-Tec is by far the coolest new product. Even if it winds up retailing for $2,000, I'll still save up and get one somehow, because it really is that cool.


Kimber has several new models (the Aegis line has expanded to all three sized weapons), while Colt only has one, which seems to be a ripoff cross between a Wilson Sentinel and a Kimber RCP.

Larry, do ya think Kel-Tec is trying to go after the LEO/Military market with the bullpup?

Just out of curiosity, is a 20mm rifle CA legal?

American made Augs. Better than the original, and you don't have to deal with the Austrians. Who are the Americans that are making these? :)

So realistically, it's in the same ballpark as a .50 BMG if you're reloading...and at $11,700, the $200 tax stamp and the investment in reloading tools really isn't all that bad.

Anzio's website says that the Single-Shot 20mm version is available at lower cost. Just depends how vital follow-up shots with your 20mm are.

-MV

Did GLOCK come out with anything new?

Stevie-Ray, outfit called Microtech Small Arms Research. They have a full page ad in the latest Shotgun News.

Another collector like Bob Landes making their own stuff maybe.

Just out of curiosity, is a 20mm rifle CA legal?

Nope.

.60 Cal is the limit for non-movie-industry peasants in CA.

My Lahti would be a felony there.

I like the looks of that bullpup. If its as reliable as the gun the mags are meant for I might just have to buy one.

I saw a Glock 21SF on gunblast.com

Whats the "SF" mean? What is so special about it?

Am I the only one that thinks Kel Tec would me making a business strategy mistake trying to push $1500-$2000 firearms? They have positioned themselves as an industry leader in the low cost niche of the firearms industry. By trying to differentiate their product line with higher dollar items they risk loosing part of that marketshare to other companies dealing in the low cost quality firearms. To be sucessful they would have to make up for this loss by gaining ground in the higher priced market segments. I simply see the current competition in $1500+ military sporting rifles too much for Kel Tec to compete without completely revamping their brand image.

Am I the only one that thinks Kel Tec would me making a business strategy mistake trying to push $1500-$2000 firearms? They have positioned themselves as an industry leader in the low cost niche of the firearms industry. By trying to differentiate their product line with higher dollar items they risk loosing part of that marketshare to other companies dealing in the low cost quality firearms. To be sucessful they would have to make up for this loss by gaining ground in the higher priced market segments. I simply see the current competition in $1500+ military sporting rifles too much for Kel Tec to compete without completely revamping their brand image.
I think price is only part of kel-tec's success, I think the rest of the story is told in them doing something different. How many people buy the sub2000 because it looks neat, or the plr16 because of the same reason? Is the p3at a success because its cheap or because its the only super lightweight polymer locked breech .380 in existence? If they can put their engineering skills to use making some equally innovative higher end weapons I think it might open up a new market to them and improve their image.

And if they transfer ownership of the company, the price of their CC line will go up. Heck, with the advent of these bullpups, I can see that happening anyway.

Introduce with a low price, get people hooked, then up the price gradually like a frog in boiling water until they're the same price as Kahr. The SU line'll be as costly (if not moreso) than the Armalite AR-180B and Mini-14.

I hope to God Himself (actually prayed) it doesn't happen, as Kel-Tec is a great manufacturer who respects their customers (unlike most others).

"What is the point of that Kel-Tec at $1500-$2000?"

Urban renewal. I really do need a small rifle.

John

My impression isn't that Kel-Tec has aimed for the el-cheapo market like Hi-Point, but rather that the things they've made have not been particularly elaborate or expensive firearms. Glocks aren't very pricey, but they are pretty good quality. It's just that Kel-Tec has finally come up with something more elaborate, and so the price reflects it.

OK, so I'm missing something here...

the sign says "7.62 NATO". On the propoganda part, it says "superior to .300 Win Magnum and close to .338 Lapua". I don't care if the barrel is 6 feet long. How is a .308 gonna match a .338 Lapua?? Does going from a 22-24" to a 30" make that much difference??

the 30-32 inch barrel model, to me that screams to be chambered in a real hum-dinger of a round. I am thinking that woud work well with the 300 remington short ultra mag or whatever it is called, probably easier to do that than strech her out to take 300 win mag.

Correia,

How soon should we see the FNP45? Also, do you know if they plan to bring the FNP series out in subcompacts?

Thanks,
Dave

I was able to check out the Kel Tec .308 Bullpup in person today at SHOT. My initial impressions are that they look pretty nice, I especially like it with the rail system and bipod, but I just can't see myself shelling out $2000+ on one yet. Especially when Century has a Galil for around $800 and an semi-autoMG42 for around $2000.

The Kel Tec and I
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/5110/meandkel308resizedor7.jpg

Hey, you need to get your camera fixed. Part of the picture didn't print.


:neener:

I still wanna know how Kel-Tec gets as much power out of a .308 as a .338 Lapua has

Century has a Galil for around $800

:what:

Where's my checkbook?
And my piggy bank?
Quick, I must check the couch for change!
Uh...hey, let's have a mid-winter yard sale!

:uhoh:

:D

That Kel-Tec looks sweet! Unfortunately, I'm not paying $2000 for it. Not because it's "just a Kel-Tec" but because I've already invested that much in a tried-and-true M1a.

There is a 7+ page thread on the bull pup on the kel tec site.

There is an adjustable trigger for the longest version of the bull pup and it should drop into the other 2, lots of people are saying it is a great trigger for a bull pup but I want to see production triggers in person first.

Everyone who has held the bulpup or seen it up close has said this is a very well made rifle and if someone else had made it and put their name on it you would be looking at something in that price range or even higher.

I want to see one in person once they have been out for a bit and price has stabalized. I want to see how well a fal mag works in bullpup for changing mags, some people say it won't work well but I think this is just one of those things where I have to see it in person to make my own opinion.

I personally am only interested in the smallest version and price is a consideration to some extent, but if it comes in at 2k after taxes I think I will pick one up simply because I like 308 and have a mess of fal mags around here.

Since they made a target version of this rifle I am expecting accuracy to be pretty impressive.

As far as where kel tec places itself in the market place, I think they have shown they have good customer support and now they are trying to show what they can do from the get go instead of an owner needing to do a fluff and buff or send the gun back to kel tec for some work.

Lots of great info is in the thread at the keltec site, someone already put a link up in this thread, first page I think.

Correia,
thanks for the report, i would really like to know more about some of the guns you mentioned, i can't wait till you can tell us all about them later!
Magpull Masada. .223 rifle. It is THE AWESOME. You guys that want a civvie SCAR, this is actually cooler. I'm going to buy 20 of them.

American made Augs. Better than the original, and you don't have to deal with the Austrians.
these are the two that i am most interested in right now! thanks again! man i wish i could have been there.

Remember Kel Tec's 2006 SHOT intro, the pf9? My guess is they have not shipped more than 200 to the distributors. The new .308 will be closer to 2009 in my opinion. Maybe 50 will be delivered before the next AWB.

Whats the deal w/ the Masada rifle, any price hints or availability news or anything? Looks awesome in the pics I saw on AR15.com, don't know if they got posted here (down the thread just a bit: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=1&t=532712 ), but I figure it's $1000+ if not $1500 which dampens my excitement...


ETA: Dug around on those links from ARFCOM, $1400ish for the Masada. Hope there are non-Leo/mil sales.

Thread here on THR too: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=247377

someone post the link to gunblast's coverage of the show.

So here are the questions that nobodys asked about the Kel Tec rifle.

Does the thing have a last shot bolt hold open?

Call me crazy if you want but the FN FS2000 was as good as sold until I found out it didn't hold the friggen bolt open. I simply can not stand a NEW gun not having such a hugely convieninent feature.

Second question, does the magazine drop free or does it require the tilt lock like standard FALs?

Third question, why are people crapping on the most innovative product displayed?

"someone post the link to gunblast's coverage of the show."

http://www.gunblast.com/SHOT_Show_2007.htm

That is one odd ejection mechanism. Why would they do that?

That is one odd ejection mechanism. Why would they do that?

Well, they're not the first to do this. Someone else does one that ejects through a similar tube beneath the barrel. I'll have to ask Paul at work.

The short answer is AMBIDEXTROUS.

Bull-pups are notoriously right-handed. Lefties pick them up and discover the ejection port is just about perfect for brass in the cheek (or even the eye).

You could, of course, just make some lefty-friendly versions, but now you're into the "economies of scale" thing.

If I were building one of these for some kind of military application, I'd try to find a way to make exactly one version of the action and not have to care whether a righty or lefty was the operator.

I hope they've tested the hell out of that exit tube. No fun if that gets fouled and binds up.

There's another good reason for making the ejection system of a bullpup ambidextrous. If it's being used as a serious rifle, the shooter may need to mount it on his weak side, e.g., to shoot around a corner while minimizing his exposure. This is normally not a problem with a conventional rifle but it is with most bullpups.

Spent Sunday at the show.
While I share the enthusiasm of some of the new products, my thought on any firearm is does it shoot well?

Until some range reports from those other than manufacturer or paid advertiser come out on said mentioned products and others I wouldn't be so quick to jump.

So much cool looking stuff has been out in the past only to produce sub par results at the range.

Finaly got a Beretta service guy to admit the Tomcat is junk and not designed to go shooting at the range. Only designed as a backup, not really to shoot. Have 4 students who bought them and all the frames broke.

Manufacturing quality on some items has gone up, while others has gone down. It seems they try to pass off the items with glitz, glitter and smoke and mirrors.

Ask hard questions and they stumble.

Tactical, spec ops and desert camo was represented in force. War is good for sales.

Knives were represented in good force and Cold Steel has some new stuff thats very well made. Al Mar stuff stills not as good as the old stuff.

Being a retailer, I tend to look at these trade shows with mixed feelings until all new products are "field" tested by consumers. All in all it was a good show and couldn't think of anything better to do for the day but will wait for those range reports to come out.

Guys, I'm home. But I've got like 200 PMs and e-mails. I'll put up a longer post at lunch time today and try to answer some more questions.

Wonder if it will be as reliable as their pistols?:what: :what:

I looked at the Gunblast report and I saw some new lever guns from Winchester - I thought that Winchester (or really the firm using the name) and the lever guns were defunct?

Hi all

I was at SHOT too.

First I saw the Microtech AUG clone. Felt ok in my hands but a little awkward. I'm a lefty. Felt weird, I usually dont' like bullpups and AUGS in particluar as they don't seem to fit my shape very well. This was no different but it is very cool looking....

Then I saw the Kel Tec. It felt like it was made for me. It's ambidextrous, the bolt handle can be setup for left or right, the stock is symmetrical, ambi safety, etc. Balances nice, as soon as I picked it up I went.. wow.. this feels great. How can this be a bullpup? My right handed buddy who was with me picked it up and said..wow, this feels great. He looked shocked. He's more an AR and FAL type. This takes standard FAL mags. They had three versions with different add-ons, rails and barrel lengths, the sort of plain jane short barrelled carbine version (18") was by far my favorite. You can see them in the pictures on the Kel Tec forum. First bullpup I've ever lusted after!!!!

Trigger is very light and smooth and supposedly adjustable. That said, no guns at SHOT have firing pins so actual trigger pull might be different, I don't know. some guns at the show (like M&P) had very gritty triggers, I wonder if not having a firing pin had anything to do with it.

Glock only had one, uninteresting new pistol. LOTS of AR and AR accessories firms. I like the Stags. Also LMT had some nice ones and the owners were extremely nice and friendly. In other areas, I liked Colt's AR and non AR stuff, as well as Ruger and T/C Thompson. Don't get to see all that stuff up close and personal very often. We got to do a great simulator with three giant screens that involved driving a humvee through hostile desert territory and having a roof machine gunner to take out hostiles and blow up their vehicles.

It was a great show, too much stuff to see. I went for 1.5 days and still struggled to get through it.

AVESGUY

AVESguy, on that simulator with the humvee, I managed to get us stuck against a wall and got PvtPyle and I killed. Next time he drives...

Okay, I'll try to answer some of the questions brought up in this thread.

FNP45 should be available for sale shortly. Don't have the exact date. The FN rep brought one by our shop before we left for the show. I didn't ask about compacts.

The Masada is a modular rifle. It is similar in execution to the XCR or the SCAR. It is an injection molded lower, with an aluminum uppper. The upper has steel inserts for the bolt carrier to ride on.

It uses standard AR barrels, but with a piston system attached to the port instead of the regular gas block. Any standard AR barrel will be able to work. It has the neatest quick change barrel system I've seen yet. Punch the pin holding the handguard with a bullet tip, then pull down a little handle, pull it to the side, and a interupted thread locking collar comes off. Swap barrels, reverse. Done.

Front sight is a fold down unit, has an emergency shotgun bead style sight available even when it is folded down. Charging handle is swappable. Can be set to reciprocate or not. Will work as a forward assist. Bolt release is like the XCR so you can use your trigger finger or your thumb (which is slick).

Price should be around $1500. Don't expect it out until 2008.

Magpul's new AR mags are very impressive. I stomped the hell out of one, and it was fine. I know a little bit about building magazines now that our Saiga .308 mags are done, and I can say that these gee whized me.

I spent a bunch of time playing with the Kel-Tec. Some of you may recall that I wasted a year of my life building a bullpup FAL, so this one got my attention real quick.

It is a simpler lifter system than the FS2000, in that it has a dual extractor system that pins the rim against the angled bolt face, and slides it upward, and then out the gun.

Trigger pull was very surprising. It was excellent.

How will this thing actually do? Beats me, but I'm getting one of the first ones to write up, and you guys know how I treat new guns. If it can be broken or jammed, I'll find out.

The mags do rock in like regular FAL mags. It is actually pretty easy to do. And no, your grip hand is not in the way. This also won't be out until 2008.

And before anybody starts crying about how long stuff takes, it takes awhile to get all of the bugs worked out of a design. The more complex the design, the longer it will take to get it to market. I told people it would take 3 months for our Saiga mags, and it actually took 6, and you would think that I shot some people's pets or something. :)

As for the price, judging from the reaction at the show, I don't think there will be much problem selling these.

Let's see, what else. There are two new compact STIs. Defender size, and then a commander size, but with an officer length frame. I love STI. They are an awesome company.

No sign of the HEZI, sorry Fabulousfink.

Glock was the same old stuff as far as I could tell.

Grayrider, the Century Galil is going to be around $800 if I recall correctly. I got set up to sell their stuff directly at the show, so I should have official prices soon. I talked to your boss for like ten seconds, but he was busy, and I had to get to another meeting myself. I did however tell them that their internet guy rocked to a shockingly high degree. :)

Right now I've got 10,000 catalogs laying here, and 200 more e-mails to answer. Not to mention a whole mess of guns to ship, many of which need to go to THR members. Now back to work.

So here are the questions that nobodys asked about the Kel Tec rifle.

Does the thing have a last shot bolt hold open?

Unimportant. Does it come in coyote brown?

I can't see any other info on the 20mm, is this an inside joke?

And Anzio Ironworks 14.5 weights over 100 pounds? That seems excessive.

Lucky, if you have ever seen what the 14.5 is normally shot out of, you wouldn't think so.

14.5 has about 3X the powder of a .50 if I recall correctly. I've got video of PvtPyle shooting one from the back of a truck in Afghanistan, and the blast is rocking the truck around on its shocks like it is in an earthquake. The muzzle blast that comes out the end looks like a mushroom cloud.

The first muzzle brake the Anzio guys used, literally, EXPLODED, on the first shot. The new one had to be machined from a solid block of steel that started out about the size of a phone book. I think 100 pounds sounds reasonable to me. :)

And I forgot, the KelTec does lock back. The bolt release on the prototye was just a piece of sheetmetal, but George Kelgren told me that they would be changing that to something nicer.

I believe they can be hefty. The gunshop I go to the most has a PTRD rebarreled to .50bmg on display.

When I was looking at buying a PTRD I learned WW2 ammo was lower pressured than modern 14.5, so barrel weight would increase. As well the excess weight could be accounted in designing the more effective muzzle brake. And more mass would reduce instances of fractured clavicles, maybe:)

And is there any more information on the 20mm rifle?


Incidentally this may not be a fair example, or a rational or sane example, but cannons can be made reasonably light. For example this one advertised as 'the lightest 30mm cannon'

http://www.shipunov.com/eng/str/cannons/gsh301.htm
"
Round type AO-18
Caliber, mm 30
Rate of fire, rds/min
1500-1800
Muzzle velocity, m/s 860
Weight, kg
cannon 50
round 0.832
projectile 0.39"

Or this 23mm cannon, weighing less than 100 pounds:
http://www.shipunov.com/eng/str/cannons/am23.htm
"
Round type AM-23
Caliber, mm 23
Rate of fire, rds/min
1250
Muzzle velocity, m/s 715
Weight, kg
cannon 43
round 0.325
projectile 0.174


It is intended to arm bombers (Tu-16, Tu-95) and military transport aircraft (An-12B)."


So if a human can withstand them, the technology is there. Firing videos might end up on Youtube or Ogrish, though.

Does the thing have a last shot bolt hold open?

Yes, it definitely did. On the last shot, the bolt locks back and the empty cartridge case is held up above the chamber. When you insert the new mag, and drop the bolt, it shoves that last case on out the front.

And remember, $2000 MSRP means $1500-1600 with any luck.
I can't see any other info on the 20mm, is this an inside joke?

And Anzio Ironworks 14.5 weights over 100 pounds? That seems excessive.

Yes, it's a real rifle. I know people who have shot it; unfortunately I missed getting to shoot it by only 15 minutes :( Actual weight of the rifle is 110 pounds, if I remember correctly. Everything I've heard says that recoil is pretty light, but that the muzzle blast is incredible.

Remember Kel Tec's 2006 SHOT intro, the pf9? My guess is they have not shipped more than 200 to the distributors.

According to posts on KTOG there were serial numbers in the 800s at the SHOT SHOW. I would guess they have nearly 1,000 out. Also, according to a Kel-Tec employee at SHOT they are supposed to go into full roduction in the next two weeks. Full production for KT is pretty impressive--they were cranking out P32s and P3ATs at a blistering rate.

I've got to say that I am strictly a pistol guy and have never wanted any rifle at all. The 18" version of this bullpup was really impressive to look at and to hold. If I was ever going to buy a rifle, this might be it. Based on prior performance of their new releases I would wait until they have a few thousand of them out the door. Even if they release 1Q '08 as they indicated at the show it would be late '08 or even '09 before I would feel comfortable making the purchase.

Pretty interesting show. Just got back and am planning for the next one. The KT RFB was the first thing that wanted right off the bat but after thinking about it a little, I think I'll wait a little like any other first time design for everything to get ironed out. The $2K/$2.5K/$3K estimate was what I heard too on the first day (Thu). (Only interested in the 32"er.) An interesting design. It was said that it has been throoughly tested (as expected from the rep) and, IIRC, no FTEs. On Sat, though, when I past by again, it was admitted that casings did hang up in the chute on occassion but this did not stop firing and after a few rounds (with no casings ejected), you would all of the sudden get a few of them flying out at one time (the force of the bolt giving the hung-up casing a good push out of the port). It was also said that full auto versions are being considered for military/LE applications.

Only thing I'm not sold on is a failure to feed problem. By looking at the gun, it looks like it will need to be disassembled to clear any of these types of failures. There was a 24" sample at the New Products table outside the hall that you could manhandle thoroughly.

So how long on the american AUG? And will it use AR magazines?

Can the KelTec eject while shooting uphill? Is the ejection tube gravity fed? :scrutiny: :uhoh:

And Anzio Ironworks 14.5 weights over 100 pounds? That seems excessive.

I can tell you with all certanty that it is not. If you plan on making a follow up shot in the next 2 minutes or do not want your clavical broken and a few disks compresses in your back you need all the weight and as big of a muzzle brake as you can get. They are making a mount for it to go on the M2 tripod or on a vehicle, but it is sectional to be man portable. It even has a suppressor to keep the blast down (but by no means silence it).

It is a DD not because it has any explosive material in it, but because it is a center fired round over 1/2 inch in diameter. They have laid their hands on some ammo and will be selling it, but much more importantly, they are making brass that takes a 50 BMG primer and their rounds. Which give 3/4 MOA out past 1000m.

I will be getting one just as soon as we can figure out a way to swing it.

I kind of imagined that targets would be old cars towed out to the farthest range possible:) Sub moa accuracy perhaps not really required.

www.marstar.ca/PTRD-41.htm 38.4 lb, but I guess the recoil extracted the spent cartridge, so that might reduce what you feel a bit, plus the somewhat lighter ammo.

I wonder if there would be some way to incorporate a spring, a large buffer tube into the stock? Obviously with a scope the stock itself can't collapse though.


Also of interest, http://members.aol.com/fiftyguy/ptrd20mm.htm

http://members.aol.com/fiftyguy/ptrd05.jpg
With the Vulcan barrel installed. Note the35 lb weight screwed on the barrel. The butt is propped against a 2x4 in a 5 gallon bucket of concrete. After the 5 test shots, the bucket had moved back 2 inches in the ground!

So how long on the american AUG? And will it use AR magazines?


Good question.

Apparently the Steyr folk were MIA and their booth space sat empty the whole time :(

The Kel-Tec bullpup 308 was the "buzz" in the LE room. Kudos to Kel-Tec for trying something new. It just gets old, seeing booth after booth of AR varients and accessories. The eyes blur over after a while. At least Kel-Tec is willing to go in original directions.

Oh, come on... Law enforcement does not NEED a .308 bullpup.

It WANTS one.

What it NEEDS are departments willing to invest in "training" rounds, rather than "situation" rounds...

Want, need, what's the difference. Either way, it's a damn sexy rifle.

It was said that it has been throoughly tested (as expected from the rep) and, IIRC, no FTEs. On Sat, though, when I past by again, it was admitted that casings did hang up in the chute on occassion but this did not stop firing and after a few rounds (with no casings ejected), you would all of the sudden get a few of them flying out at one time (the force of the bolt giving the hung-up casing a good push out of the port).

You know, I was looking at the Carbine prototype pretty thoroughly, and handled the bolt when he disassembled it, and I noticed it had an awful awful lot of brass shavings on the bolt, in the receiver, and generally all over the place. That kinda makes me wonder more than anything else, whether it might cause problems in the longer run as shavings build up.


Was I the only one who didn't think much of the MSAR STG-556? Sure, the AUG is cool, but the prototypes they had available were rather disappointing. I might pay $1,000 for one, but not $2,000-it's just not that great of a rifle.

The Kel-Tec bullpup 308 was the "buzz" in the LE room. Kudos to Kel-Tec for trying something new. It just gets old, seeing booth after booth of AR varients and accessories. The eyes blur over after a while. At least Kel-Tec is willing to go in original directions.

Most of the talk I heard in the LE room was about the Magpul Masada. It was described by many as having the best parts of the M16 combined with the best parts of the FN SCAR.

http://gallery.armyranger.com/albums/anothertexan/c4b98d96bf0f0ed45d9f9497153df7481c0cc458_1.jpg

Correia

I was the wheel man on ours, my friend was shooting. We did fine, had to make a few detours but managed to hit the water. It was really a blast. I never got a turn at the machine gun, though.

How the heck did I miss the Magpul booth? Darn, wish I'd have seen that one. That photo in the previous post looks really cool.

AVESGUY

Can the KelTec eject while shooting uphill? Is the ejection tube gravity fed? Yes. No.

As Wes quoted above, at worst 2 or 3 casings could accumulate in the tube. The bolt pushes them out, same as stripping a new round from the mag. The casing would have to be severly deformed not to eject. Possible? Yes. At worst, the design could be changed to shorten the ejection tube.

Can the KelTec eject while shooting uphill? Is the ejection tube gravity fed?

How the system works is the extractor, after the bolt assembly is drawn back under recoil, tilts the empty case upward (inside of the gun unseen). At this point the empty case is pointed at a channel located above the barrel. You can see it on the posted tech data sheet of the gun on the first page of this thread. As the bolt goes forward to complete its cycle, the casing starts to enter the channel and the extractor gets push down to engage the next (live) round going into the chamber. When the extractor depresses, an extension in the bolt carrier (not sure if it is called that) pushes the empty casing further into the channel. The force of the bolt/bolt carrier going forward is what kicks the casing out of the chute.

I have to hand it to KT for designing something new (as compared to what's out there). But, being not entirely well seasoned in rifle manufacturing and starting with an entirely new design, I'm not sure I'd pay up to $3K for the target model out of the gate.

SHOT show was great. I won a Trijicon scope and a Swiss watch from Trijicon. Of course, I lost the watch at the airport when I had to repack my bag after finding out I couldn't take the scope through security. Darn.

I got killed the first time through the Humvee simualtor. I was driving and wasn't told the mission objective so I just drove through town and around so the gunner would have targets to shoot at. It wasn't until after we were dead that they said I should have headed for the dock. I did better once I was up on the gun. That was fun.

I couldn't figure out why they were driving for the dock; I assumed/wanted a seek and destroy mission. Whoever the heck my driver was (some random dude), he kept driving the humvee into walls, and getting stuck for half a minute at a time while hostiles plinked at us from behind. That was the real problem with the simulator: not being able to see or shoot 360.

Oh, and from what I could tell, the laser aiming device on that simulator was really inaccurate/out of sync. I was properly using the iron sights on the 240, and it kept throwing the shots off fairly significantly (at least a foot or two at a simulated 15 yards). I've never had the opportunity to fire a 240 in real life, but I'd imagine that at 15 to 20 yards a 3 second burst is pretty much guaranteed to nail someone standing fully upright in the open, when the sights are held even vaguely close. My driver discovered the hard way that you could apparantly run into a hostile footsoldier and push them in front of the bumper for a decent distance before they finally die.

Overall, that system wasn't very impressive ;)

Trebor: how did you manage to win a Trijicon?

hksw:
How the system works is the extractor, after the bolt assembly is drawn back under recoil, tilts the empty case upward (inside of the gun unseen). At this point the empty case is pointed at a channel located above the barrel. You can see it on the posted tech data sheet of the gun on the first page of this thread. As the bolt goes forward to complete its cycle, the casing starts to enter the channel and the extractor gets push down to engage the next (live) round going into the chamber. When the extractor depresses, an extension in the bolt carrier (not sure if it is called that) pushes the empty casing further into the channel. The force of the bolt/bolt carrier going forward is what kicks the casing out of the chute.

So, basically, they use a variation on the same kind of action that's used to load the next round from the magazine.

The only real difference being that, with the barrel pointed upward, any brass already in the ejection chute would slide back. What do they use to keep prior spent casings from interfering with the next one being ejected?

I mean, something in the chute that makes it easy for brass to slide forward by not back sounds good; I'm just not sure what material would do that without heat/fouling/other problems.

And then there's the follow-up on a failure-to-fire, with a complete cartridge being sent down the chute.

Many questions. Look forward to seeing one in person.

The rep on the first day was asked about pointing the gun upward and the ejection issue. He had stated that the casings (presumably seen in testing) would still have enough force behind it to clear the port. It wouldn't go far but far enough to clear the gun.

The Kel-Tec rep at the booth cycled a mag of inert cartridges through the gun. Each cartridge, (heavier with its bullet in place), ejected forward out of the tube with a good deal of force. Off hand, I recall them "shooting" 3 or 4 feet across the table, when the barrel was horizontal and maybe a foot above.

The last empty brass left inside during a mag change ejects out on the first shot of the new mag.

Also: I took a FAL mag off of the table and put it in and pulled it out about 20 times in a row as fast as I could, while holding the rifle shouldered. (Not one person looked at me funny, I think they all understood.) The mag "rocks" out, the thumb catch is very large and presses in easily. As easy or easier than changing mags on an M1A or Mini 14, even with the pistol grip just a few inches in front of the mag well. It didn't bind or catch or need to be ripped out with force. It went right in and out, very slick and positive.

Trebor: how did you manage to win a Trijicon?

My MAD GAMERZ SKILLZ won me the scope.

Trijicon had a press conference to announce some new products. As part of the conference they set up three simulators with M4 dummy guns with three different Trijicon scopes. The "military" simulator used a scenario from "America's Army," the "Police" scenario had a "shoot - don't shoot" Hogan's Alley type game and the "Hunting" scenario simulated hunting Cape Buffalo in Africa.

I did OK in the military scenario, got run over by a Cape Buffalo in the hunting scenario and thought I did pretty well in the Hogan's Alley scenario. By then I knew the sights were off so I did a alot of point shooting in that one and managed to hit a fair number of "bad guys" and not hit any "good guys" at all.

I was still surprised though when they announced the winners and I was the first name they called. I had the high score for the "Police" scenario. I was expecting a set of night sights or a Surefire flashlight or something and was stunned when they handed me a 3-9x 40mm Accupoint scope. They also gave me a Traser H3 watch.

I lost the watch when I had to repack my carry on at the airport after I found out that you can't take a scope in your carry on luggage. The good news is someone turned the watch over to lost and found and their going to mail it back to me tommorrow.

I credit my victory to my years of playing video games, especially "Lethal Enforcer" and "Operation Wolf."

The only real difference being that, with the barrel pointed upward, any brass already in the ejection chute would slide back. What do they use to keep prior spent casings from interfering with the next one being ejected?

If I recall correctly, there's a small tab inside the ejection tube, just above the chamber that allows cases to go out, but holds and keeps them from going back into the action if pointed upwards. As for whether they would eject brass all the way out of the action when fired upwards, I'm not sure. It wouldn't do it when demo'd, but they were also using much heavier dummy cartridges with bullets, rather than fired brass. And because the velocity is dependent on the speed at which the bolt closes, I have to wonder if it wouldn't throw them out with even more force during actual firing (then again, maybe not).

Either way, it doesn't really matter because if they make it into the tube, the following casings are going to keep pushing things out the front, just like the FN2000.

Trijicon had a press conference to announce some new products. As part of the conference they set up three simulators with M4 dummy guns with three different Trijicon scopes. The "military" simulator used a scenario from "America's Army," the "Police" scenario had a "shoot - don't shoot" Hogan's Alley type game and the "Hunting" scenario simulated hunting Cape Buffalo in Africa.


Dang...wish I'd have known about it. All that Halo action might have finally paid off for me ;)

So how about the Shotties?

And I'm not talking about 870s or 590s. :evil:

Want, need, what's the difference. Either way, it's a damn sexy rifle.


Okay... It's a matter of a coupla things...

My tax dollars paying for a buncha guys wearing tactical undies to fondle unnecessary armament.

Having to watch 'em at the range while they brag it's the greatest thing since sliced bread while they shoot up the target frames (hint - range rules prohibit shooting the target frames on purpose... they cost $$$).

Having more of my tax dollars pay for the care and upkeep, for life, of the toddler that gets hit in the spine from three blocks away when one of the gung-ho tactical boys misses his intended target at 30 yards, because he's using a centerfire rifle instead of a 'gauge, and has a buncha rounds in the mag....

What percentage of police departments are now saying that they need things like this? I'd guess 95% plus... And 100% in urban areas.

What percentage of justified shoots take place at more than 100 yards? Or even at around 50 yards? I'll guess less than 1%. A .243 bolt gun with a Weaver 4x scope will cut it. Heck, even the Steyr Scout that a fellow couldn't get to group inside 2" at 100 yards would cut it... Sigh... He looked down on my lowly Savage...

It's a nice rifle. It's maybe even sort of interesting. Don't get me wrong there.

Bogie, if you don't mind, please go complain about law enforcement in some other thread. We've heard it all before, and it really isn't on topic at all for this one.

So how about the Shotties?

I was with my wife. Couldn't say. :)

I heard at the THR dinner that one of our guys scored a date with the EAA booth babe. I don't know who it was, but go THR.

Honestly, the Florida show's booth babes were not nearly as trashy as the Las Vegas ones. I think for Vegas, some companies just hit up the local strip clubs.

Almost all of the "booth babes" are local models hired through an agency. They range from serious models to part time models to strippers. A young family friend of mine (part time model and serious dancer) was one of the "showgirls" with black sequins and feathers hired by Davidson's. There was also a SURF show going on at the same time next door. Every female model (and many male ones) were booked for those 4 days. At the surf show they stood around wearing less that at SHOT. :what:

I lost the watch when I had to repack my carry on at the airport after I found out that you can't take a scope in your carry on luggage.
Now there's a rule that's saved countless lives no doubt. The wisdom of the TSA never ceases to amaze.