What is the most dead solid reliable pistol (autoloader) design ever?


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bobhaverford
January 12, 2007, 10:11 AM
I'd like to ask the experts on this board their opinion of the most dead solid reliable pistol design ever developed. And today, when looking for dead solid performance what design and manufacturer is your "go to" guy. The question relates to RELIABILITY, IOW, every time you pull the trigger the gun goes BANG and is ready for another. FTFs and FTEs are the kiss of death.

A couple of ground rules: The pistol must be reasonably accurate. The pistol is assumed to be reasonably maintained (this would include replacement of springs, locking blocks etc.). No additional gunsmithing has been performed.

I'd like this to be a discussion of design and implementation of that design. The tilt barrel vs Stoner's rotating barrel for instance. All things being equal in the reliability department, the nod goes to accuracy. Remember, this is a discussion of design and implementation of that design! So please incorporate those considerations into your response.

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kokapelli
January 12, 2007, 10:19 AM
:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

meef
January 12, 2007, 10:24 AM
SIG P220.

Nuff said.

:D

dfloomis
January 12, 2007, 10:27 AM
Where's the popcorn?

Onmilo
January 12, 2007, 10:30 AM
Well according to the US Military the Beretta M92F and the Sig Sauer 226 were dead heat in their tests which were about as rigorous as testing can get but this was before the Glock was available and it has managed to pass some fairly complex shoot to destruction testing with flying colors.

While I have owned, shot, and enjoyed all three of these pistol designs and have encountered issues with all three brands, I have not yet seen a version of these handguns that I would call unreliable.

Desertscout
January 12, 2007, 10:47 AM
That's a no-brainer. The GLOCK.

MrDig
January 12, 2007, 10:47 AM
BHP

Rinspeed
January 12, 2007, 10:52 AM
Of all the tests I have read over the years the Sig 226 is probably the most reliable of all the autoloaders. I own four Sigs and have never seen a malfuntion with any of them. The only issue I have seen is a broken hammer return spring in one of the 220s.

das028
January 12, 2007, 10:53 AM
Glock(9mm).......end of discussion.

Cant be matched, IMO:)

robctwo
January 12, 2007, 10:58 AM
Sig 220 series
BHP
Glock
Beretta

I'm selecting four as one answer. More correct if question is what are the most reliable as opposed to which is the most reliable.

But then I'm not an expert on this board.

browningguy
January 12, 2007, 11:31 AM
BHP. Serving since 1935.

Rinspeed
January 12, 2007, 11:35 AM
Glock(9mm).......end of discussion.

Cant be matched, IMO



Glocks are very reliable until you shoot them with less than a frim grip. For that reason alone I wouldn't put them in the same tier as Hk or Sig.

Calhoun
January 12, 2007, 11:37 AM
I'll step away from the herd here. CZ75. Never had a single problem with it. Thousands of rounds fired, no hickup. All stock, except for the lousy grips it came with.

Duckster
January 12, 2007, 11:54 AM
My humble opinion from shooting weapons all over the world (Army). The BHP is by far the best tried and true pistol, "PERIOD!!!!"

"GOD BLESS THE INFANTRY"

Innova
January 12, 2007, 11:59 AM
My carry gun is a 1911, but GLOCK is the hands down winner.

doubleg
January 12, 2007, 12:01 PM
they all jam after long enough.

10-Ring
January 12, 2007, 12:02 PM
I wanna play...:D

You want over engineered for reliability & durability that adds in great accuracy for good measure??? Answer: HK & SIG :cool:

tango3065
January 12, 2007, 12:22 PM
Glock

JDGray
January 12, 2007, 12:33 PM
CZ75B 9mm, Perfect in over 4000 rds.:)

hkusp
January 12, 2007, 12:54 PM
Even though I'm not a Glock fan, I do have to give them credit for most likely being the most reliable autoloader. If they ever put a factory Manual Thumb safety on a G17, I'd buy one.

lee n. field
January 12, 2007, 01:10 PM
Makarov. :D

Seriously, though, there should be good hard statistics somewhere.

Guzzizzit
January 12, 2007, 01:18 PM
Glock all the way. Never had a malfunction. You can limp-wrist the heck out of it and it still wont jamb. Dont have to worry about outdated safety designs. Just point and pull the trigger.

LBTRS
January 12, 2007, 01:22 PM
Even though I hate them I would say that Glock would be at the top of this list. Sig Sauer P Series wouldn't be far behind.

BoneDigger
January 12, 2007, 01:22 PM
Ruger P Series (P90, P95, etc).

I also have had good luck with a Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm.

I have not shot all guns so I can't speak for all of them, just the GOOD ones I have had.

Todd

MCgunner
January 12, 2007, 01:23 PM
Hard to get better than 100% and my Rugers, well, even my Kel Tec is 100%. I'd say about anything except an out of the box 1911 in my experience....:uhoh:

Seriously, Glock, Ruger, Sig, HK, CZ, yadda, yadda, yadda far as I know. I know I left out a lot. I WON'T buy an AMT or a Auto Ordinance ever again. I think they're out of production anyway, RIP. I'm not really high on the 1911 anyway.

rbernie
January 12, 2007, 01:25 PM
Makarov....

Northslope Nimrod
January 12, 2007, 01:26 PM
BHP

Simple, reliable.

Two thousand rounds (or so)....and NEVER a FTE, FTF...Nuthin!

None of my other guns could claim that.

My CZ had one or two failures. My Makarov has had ONLY ONE...on a cold snowy day....and it hadn't been shot/cleaned in a while. BUT, the BHP was shot the same day.
Makarov & CZ would be near the top. The edge going to the Mak....IMHO.

Cousin Mike
January 12, 2007, 01:34 PM
I have several different pistols, almost all from different manufacturers (2 are SIGs), and NONE of them have ever choked. At this point, I've owned more Berettas than any other, and they've all been completely reliable. My SIG pistols are amazing, and I've put more rounds through my P220 than all my Berettas combined. I just bought a Glock 33, and that now serves as my everday carry.

SIG
Beretta
Glock

...would be my tie for the top 3 in my personal experience. I've never had a failure of any kind with any of these guns in thousands of rounds (each - except for the Glock, which I've only had for about 2 weeks), and they're all equally reliable, with the edge going to the SIG pistols in accuracy (for me). I have yet to experience H&K for myself, but everyone knows they're up there as well.

camacho
January 12, 2007, 01:37 PM
Makarov.
Seriously, though, there should be good hard statistics somewhere.

There was a thread (maybe not in this newsgroup) where one guy put his Makarov through a torture test, he froze it, put it in mud, other stuff, and that sucker still fired. Might not be the most accurate but by all accounts is one of the most reliable.

das028
January 12, 2007, 01:41 PM
"Glocks are very reliable until you shoot them with less than a frim grip. For that reason alone I wouldn't put them in the same tier as Hk or Sig."


Have you ever shot a Glock bud?

Have you ever experienced this limpwristing you speak of?


I never have, and I think this limpwristing BS is a internet myth! Christ, my girlfreind shots my 19 and it doesnt miss a beat. And she has very limp wrists.:D

So I will have to politely disagree with you, and say, "nope wrong answer, you do not pass go, you do not collect 200 dollars"!

Lonestar
January 12, 2007, 01:42 PM
My .02 would be in no order Glocks, XDs, Ruger P series, Sigs, and Beretta 92f (I'm having issues with my Tomcat so I would not say all berettas).

However even with these fine weapons you might get an occasional lemon or the shooter, the ammo, or the magazine may cause the gun to be less than 100%.

Lonestar
January 12, 2007, 01:45 PM
Have you ever shot a Glock bud?

Have you ever experienced this limpwristing you speak of?


I never have, and I think this limpwristing BS is a internet myth! Christ, my girlfreind shots my 19 and it doesnt miss a beat. And she has very limp wrists.

Das I own 5 Glock and I have see many inexperienced or excited (LEOs)shooters limp wrist them. That is why everyone should know how to tap,rack and go again.

MCgunner
January 12, 2007, 01:45 PM
I know limp wristing can hurt a very light, small 9mm like KT, Kahr, Rohrbaugh, but I've never heard of such on a full size gun like the Glocks. Even the G26 has heft to it compared to the really small 9s. Got a friend with a G20 (large 10mm) that is simply HUGE. But, just because I've never seen it happen don't mean it ain't so.

Quickdraw Limpsalot
January 12, 2007, 01:49 PM
Speaking only of the firearms I've owned personally, the XD takes the cake. Not one failure in 8K+ rounds.

[edit] Actually, my relatively new Kahr CW9 hasn't failed at all either, but I haven't fired even close to that many rounds through it yet.

das028
January 12, 2007, 01:55 PM
"Das I own 5 Glock and I have see many inexperienced or excited (LEOs)shooters limp wrist them. That is why everyone should know how to tap,rack and go again."


Ok fair enough, but I can tell you I have never seen it happen.

Lonestar
January 12, 2007, 01:56 PM
Here goes some Glock limp wristing videos http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=glock+jam. Simply stated nothing in life is 100%. Heck you can have a malfunction with a revolver during the worst possible moment. I love my Glocks but I never believe the hype of Glock perfection. Know you weapons limitations, and practice failure drills. Murphy's law usually hurt the overconfident ones the most.

das028
January 12, 2007, 01:56 PM
BTW, off topic, but can somebody pleas tell me how to use the quote feature?

Sorry

Rinspeed
January 12, 2007, 01:57 PM
Have you ever shot a Glock bud?

Have you ever experienced this limpwristing you speak of?


I never have, and I think this limpwristing BS is a internet myth! Christ, my girlfreind shots my 19 and it doesnt miss a beat. And she has very limp wrists



You must be kidding right, the term limpwristing was thought up because of Glocks. I have not experienced it but I've seen it happen.

das028
January 12, 2007, 02:02 PM
"You must be kidding right, the term limpwristing was thought up because of Glocks. I have not experienced it but I've seen it happen."


Nope wasnt kidding. Never experienced it and never seen it happen.


And BTW, if you are limpsristing a glock, you need to learn how to use a firearm.

Rinspeed
January 12, 2007, 02:11 PM
And BTW, if you are limpsristing a glock, you need to learn how to use a firearm.



One of times I seen it happen it was my friends daughter maybe 14 years old at the time. Maybe we should send her to Thunder Ranch :)

allmons
January 12, 2007, 02:15 PM
Owned and shot many handguns. Never had a 1911 style I could keep from jamming, no matter how much I paid or how many "slick" gunsmith tricks I had installed. First Glock I got in a trade and thought, briefly, I had gotten "beat" on the deal. 13 years later, that little model 17 has seen in excess of 15,000 9mm rounds OF ALL TYPES. Still haven't had a failure. You pull the trigger with a loaded magazine, it goes "boom"every time.

Since then I have bought 2 more Glock pistols ( .45 and 10 mm ) and am still quite satified.

Having a new XD .45, I must say I am very impressed with it as well.

And just like my S&W .357 revolver, the Glocks don't fire unless I pull the trigger. They need a safety as much as my revolver does - that is to say, "NOT!"
:)

McCall911
January 12, 2007, 02:15 PM
What is the most dead solid reliable pistol (autoloader) design ever?

Generally, it's one answer: "Whatever I have!"

usp9
January 12, 2007, 02:21 PM
There are several models that qualify, but if I was sent to Iraq today, I'd have a HK on my hip.

DogBonz
January 12, 2007, 02:23 PM
the USP 45. Because in almos 9000 rounds mine has only failed once, and that was due to bad ammo.

mljdeckard
January 12, 2007, 02:56 PM
1911 with an asterisk.

It is easy to mess one up tweaking it when you don't know what you are doing. They come in varying grades and such, but I wouldn't switch mine out for anything.

I have carried Berettas, Glocks, and Sigs. If I thought they were more reliable, I would be carrying one.

However, if I had to pick up a gun, sight unseen and untested, and trust my life with it, it would be a Glock.

Storm
January 12, 2007, 03:09 PM
Sig 220 and HK USP.

DoubleTapDrew
January 12, 2007, 04:01 PM
I'll vote for Glock as well.
I haven't been able to get mine (19,23,26) to stovepipe even intentionally trying to limp wrist it.

Striker
January 12, 2007, 04:13 PM
Glock.

Here is an interesting link by Bigbore of Adco Firearms, by way of Xavier's blog.

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item

mattw
January 12, 2007, 04:15 PM
the most reliable one i've ever owned has been my XD

Vern Humphrey
January 12, 2007, 04:16 PM
I'll go with the pistol that was tested in the Philippines in 1913, in Vera Cruz in 1914, in Haiti in 1915, in northern Mexico in 1916, in the trenches of France in 1917 and '18, in Archangel and along the Trans-Siberian Railway in '19, in the jungles of Central America during the '20s and '30s, carried through the surf at Guadalcanal, Omaha Beach and Iwo Jima, made the march out from the Chosen Reservoir in 1950, soldiered through the triple-canopy jungle of Viet Nam, and was carried by many units in Desert Storm.

rustymaggot
January 12, 2007, 04:22 PM
hands down its the lorcin 380. superb craftsmanship and reliability.:neener:

Zero_DgZ
January 12, 2007, 04:22 PM
Probably either Sig or Glock.

Cousin Mike
January 12, 2007, 04:23 PM
What gun is that, Vern? :confused:

;) :D :evil: :p

My Auto Ordnance 1911 jammed once on some terrible ammo - but I didn't mention it, because it has, in fact, jammed... even if it was the ammo. My SIG spits the same ammo all day w/o a hitch. In my limited experience, 1911's can be just as reliable as SIGs, etc... even the $400 ones. :D

I'll always have at least ONE 1911 in the safe, but I just don't think I'm designed to carry one everyday. Still love 'em, though...

hso
January 12, 2007, 04:45 PM
The stock handguns I put lots of rounds through that have never failed to go bang have been BHP, CZ75, Glock. I've also got a Para P12 that's never failed to perform, but everyone insists it's a freak. I have had USPs and 1911s fail to go bang.

jon_in_wv
January 12, 2007, 04:48 PM
I have only one gun that has never, never malfunctioned. The MAKAROV. I have used many off brand and surplus types of ammo and it has never malfunctioned. The day I bought it, it was full of cosmoline and sand-like grit. It fired fine just like that! I trust it completely.

GeorgiaGlocker
January 12, 2007, 05:14 PM
Glock Perfection.

Steve2237
January 12, 2007, 05:32 PM
As far as a production autoloader; Browning Hipower.

gazpacho
January 12, 2007, 05:51 PM
I might consider the H&K Mk23 SOCOM

1) 45 ACP
2) The military trials were quite impressive
3) 45 ACP
4) Extreme accuracy
5) 45 ACP
6) All the correct levers
7) 45 ACP
8) Low recoil
9-16) 45 ACP (12 rd magazine)

Lonestar
January 12, 2007, 05:54 PM
Das... when you post a message there is a little cartoon dialog bubble icon, highlight what you want to quote and click that icon.

Das I mention excited LEOs, there was this cop that worked in the town over from me that got into a fight with his wife and he chased her around the house trying to shoot her with a glock until he eventually killed her. He turn himself in after it happened, the chilling thing was he told his CO that he fired 9 rounds out of his glock and jammed twice, but thanks to his police training he was able to tap/rack/and keep shooting. It was like he was looking for approval from his boss.

Glocks are great, simple and reliable, but if someone is breaking in you house and your all excited, and don't have a firm grip, you might jam. Most light weight polymer guns will do that. Just know it and pratice,pratice, pratice. Never A S S U M E.

jon_in_wv
January 12, 2007, 07:10 PM
If Glocks are perfect, what were they before?? I mean this is what, the third generation? I keep hearing people talk about looking forward to the fourth generation. Isn't it perfect now??? I'm confused. I'll stick with Browning HP perfection. It seems to last longer. :neener:

51Cards
January 12, 2007, 07:16 PM
So that's, what? ... three 1911s, so far? :D

Thought I was going nuts, for awhile.

Sig. :neener:

Anonymous Coward
January 12, 2007, 07:28 PM
Weirdly enough, I had a Glock 17 FTE on me last week. Should I have called
Ripley's?

Nothing's perfect. Certainly some designs are much less perfect than others.

Dr.Rob
January 12, 2007, 09:32 PM
I've seen a BHP falter from limpwristing on EVERY shot, though with a proper hold its one of the best out of the box.

Sig 226. One of the best DA/SA guns ever.

HK USP. I've never seen one jam. Too big and clumsy for my hands though.

A bone stock Colt 1911A1 with ball ammo is a darn good choice, but it's not 'perfect'.

No handgun is perfect.

CWL
January 12, 2007, 09:58 PM
The pistol must be reasonably accurate.

Y'all can argue over which design is best, I'm still laughing over this requirement.

BevrFevr
January 12, 2007, 10:19 PM
most glocks (don't like em all but trust em)
S&W 1911 (all other makers have jammed on me)
cz75b (with good springs) the design is wonderful. Some of the springs just SUCK!

bersa firestorm .380 (like a timex)

honorable mention to sig and hk for quality but designs could be improved.

ymmv -bevr

BevrFevr
January 12, 2007, 10:21 PM
if you have a gun you can "limp wrist" you have a bad gun. That is all there is to it. It's just another excuse for a gun that will jam.

I say more than likely if you can limp wrist you got the wrong springs in your gun.

nuf said! -bevr

BamBam-31
January 12, 2007, 11:26 PM
If Glocks are perfect, what were they before?? I mean this is what, the third generation? I keep hearing people talk about looking forward to the fourth generation. Isn't it perfect now??? I'm confused. I'll stick with Browning HP perfection. It seems to last longer.

Which BHP would that be, the Mk. III? :p

Glocks are tops in my book.

Lone_Gunman
January 12, 2007, 11:39 PM
the term limpwristing was thought up because of Glocks

No, that is not true.

Any automatic can be limp-wristed and jammed as a result. By the nature of the design, autos need a firm grip so that the recoil will drive the slide back and not the whole gun.

This is not a problem peculiar to Glocks. It is more of a problem in small, lightweight guns.

BevrFevr
January 12, 2007, 11:43 PM
lone gun man

uh... er... how do i say this...

You are wrong.

tbtrout
January 12, 2007, 11:46 PM
I would have to say a Sig P220

Lone_Gunman
January 12, 2007, 11:46 PM
No, I don't think I am.

Jeff
January 12, 2007, 11:48 PM
There would be NO discernable difference between the Glocks, SIGs, HK USPs, Beretta 92s, Makarovs, CZ P-01s, and BHPs.

Any one of the above would be a firearm you can trust your life to.

Make mine a USP .45.

BevrFevr
January 12, 2007, 11:48 PM
ok i'll take your word for it.

Stevie-Ray
January 12, 2007, 11:58 PM
H&K USPC

Monkeybear
January 13, 2007, 12:07 AM
Glock
CZ75B
BHP

Onmilo
January 13, 2007, 12:20 AM
The H&K has not been tested against the three competitors listed in my original post but the Germans said it killed off the Sig Sauer and Glock pistols during their testing phase for a new handgun.
It also wiped out the Walther.

H&K USP 9mm was adopted as the P11

The 1911 was wiped off the most reliable chart by the US Military replacement pistol testing in the 1980s.

Don't despair JMB fans, it wasn't wiped by much and the standards for all other pistols was set by the reliability standards of this design.

Also bear in mind that the 1911 control pistols were all used and at least 35 years old at the time of the testing while the competitors were brand new pistols.

los
January 13, 2007, 12:29 AM
Semmerling LM-4.

It only fails,...if you fail!

kokapelli
January 13, 2007, 10:02 AM
Well Bob, I'm sure that now you know exactly which pistol would be best for you.:)

bobhaverford
January 13, 2007, 10:42 AM
Right.

I own a Beretta 92FS Inox, Sig P226ST, a Browning Buckmaster and a Beretta Cougar on its way.

I'm thinking about a CZ-75 but was somewhat concerned about FTF and FTE.

The AK-47 is considered the most dead solid battle rifle ever devised. I was kind of wondering whether there was an analogous pistol.

I'd love to see the US military undertake another JSSAP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Service_Small_Arms_Program) including ALL modern designs. I'd say we're about due. While they were at it they could publicly test the different calibers with their requirement clearly stated and subsequent test results made public. Of course this would NOT lay the caliber wars to rest but, in all likelihood, would merely add fuel to the fire. Myself, I'm a 9mm kind of guy - spray and pray!

kokapelli
January 13, 2007, 10:53 AM
The AK-47 is considered the most dead solid battle rifle ever devised.

I would have to agree, but from my own experience, the AK47 has a very limited accurate range when compaired to an AR in 5.56.

armoredman
January 13, 2007, 10:55 AM
Bob, there are several AK pistols, and now even Century makes one, last listed through SOG for $600. Too big to carry concealed under anything less than a trenchcoat.
As for me, I worked on a rental range for a year an a half, and I saw them ALL fail, including the mighty G-rock, the venerable Colt, the indomitabls SiG, one after another, something broke. Yes, even my favorite CZ and CZ clones also will fail, given enough abuse. The ones who failed the least were CZs, (best), Rugers, (being built like a tank helps), G-Rocks, and Taurus autos. The ones who failed the most were, top o' the heap, HK USPs, Beretta 92, SiG 230, 220, and 226, Smith autos,(every one we had on the shelf), and Springfield compact 45s. We actually had both a Lorcin and Jennings on the rental shelf at one point, but they didn't last long enough to make an impression of anything but seriously ugly paperweight.
The only one I can never remember needing any serious attention,(think it broke a grip panel or something like that), and selling, (after years on the rental range, the worst torture a pistol can have), for more than we paid for it, was the HK P7M8. I couldn't stand the squeeze cocking grip, but that was one tough pistol.

Edited to add I had a very small sampling of these various manufacturers on the shelf, usually no more than 5 or 6 of each, so should NOT be considered a statistically significant "test" of any kind.

camacho
January 13, 2007, 10:56 AM
The AK-47 is considered the most dead solid battle rifle ever devised. I was kind of wondering whether there was an analogous pistol.

Yep, there is, manufactured from the same folks who invented the AK47. The name is Makarov.

gbelleh
January 13, 2007, 11:18 AM
There's no perfect design. I've personally had failures with 2 different Glocks, my Sig 228, 2 different Walthers, HKs, all 3 1911s I've owned. I've even had failures with a Bersa .380 and one of my Makarovs. I clean, lube and maintain all my guns with care, but mechanical things don't always work.

doubleg
January 13, 2007, 11:33 AM
As for the glock hysteria in the thread. I rented a glock the other day at the range. I had exactley 3 stove pipes and 4 FTE.:neener:And that was only shooting 50 rds.

magnumcarry
January 13, 2007, 12:49 PM
GLOCK

possum
January 13, 2007, 01:16 PM
Well according to the US Military the Beretta M92F and the Sig Sauer 226 were dead heat in their tests which were about as rigorous as testing can get but this was before the Glock was available and it has managed to pass some fairly complex shoot to destruction testing with flying colors.

not exactly, the glocks were around when the beretta's were tested back in the 80's. the canidates were, glock, ruger, sig, and beretta. the older model glocks had problems with the frames cracking when they were jumped in. the sigs had a horrible finish that would wear off to quickly, the bertta's were unliked by the service members testing the handguns, and the ruger was the most liked by far, for durabilty, and reliability aspects, but because of political issues at the time in the 80's the beretta was chosen.

Lone_Gunman
January 13, 2007, 01:53 PM
Glocks were not rejected because of frames cracking. They did not meet the criteria because they were striker fired and had no external safety.

JAMES77257
January 13, 2007, 02:13 PM
I own six Glocks, one being a G22 w/ 15k rds, on 2nd bbl, NEVER HAD A MALFUNCTION!

However, I also have a heavily modded G35 I use for IPSC open class matches, If I dont clean it at least every 100 rds it won't run.

My answer, GLOCK, ( in factory configuration )

Rembrandt
January 13, 2007, 02:25 PM
....What is the most dead solid reliable pistol (autoloader) design ever?
....pistol must be reasonably accurate.....reasonably maintained....No additional gunsmithing....I'd like this to be a discussion of design and implementation of that design......this is a discussion of design and implementation of that design!

Hummm?....don't recall the question being exclusive to centerfires. Several rimfires come to mind that would possibly be better candidates. Rimfires receive little wear compared to the heavier pounding centerfires will see over a lifetime.

Colt Woodsman, High Standard, S&W 41's, Brownings, Rugers,......something to think about.

North Bender
January 13, 2007, 07:40 PM
Makarov.

ajax
January 13, 2007, 08:10 PM
Vern that was beautifuly said and I completly agree with you. In 4 short years the old 1911 will be a 100 years young and getting more popular by the day. It's been copied by just about everyone in the free world and won my heart when my father shot them in IPSC in the early 80's. I do like those BHP's though.

Glockfan.45
January 13, 2007, 08:14 PM
A Glock 17 is akin to the AK of pistols. For the record Glock was excluded from military trials because they would not release production rights to competing companies per U.S requirements.

Cliff47
January 13, 2007, 08:21 PM
Single-Action: Browning/FN Hi-Power
Double-Action: CZ75B/85B

I own and shoot both.

varoadking
January 13, 2007, 09:10 PM
H&K P9S...unmatched accuracy and reliability...

...but clunky...for me anyway...

...sold mine.

The SiG P220, while accurate, is far from reliable (I like them though, and own one). Numerous PD's have turned them in due to breakage...

The Glock, while reliable, is far from accurate...

All IMHO, of course...

usa1993
January 13, 2007, 09:16 PM
GLOCK, POUND FOR POUND, OR UNDER DOG, IT WILL OUT PERFORM.

Marshall
January 13, 2007, 09:18 PM
JMB's BHP.

MCgunner
January 13, 2007, 09:21 PM
Quote:
Well according to the US Military the Beretta M92F and the Sig Sauer 226 were dead heat in their tests which were about as rigorous as testing can get but this was before the Glock was available and it has managed to pass some fairly complex shoot to destruction testing with flying colors.

not exactly, the glocks were around when the beretta's were tested back in the 80's. the canidates were, glock, ruger, sig, and beretta. the older model glocks had problems with the frames cracking when they were jumped in. the sigs had a horrible finish that would wear off to quickly, the bertta's were unliked by the service members testing the handguns, and the ruger was the most liked by far, for durabilty, and reliability aspects, but because of political issues at the time in the 80's the beretta was chosen.

Sure coulda saved us tax payers $$$$$$$$$$ if they'd picked the Ruger, but I guess saving money ain't high on the government "to do" list. :rolleyes:

Glockfan.45
January 13, 2007, 09:23 PM
The Glock, while reliable, is far from accurate...

:scrutiny: could be the shooter :neener: . I have never had a problem with accuracy. Its not my Kimber by any means but it has more than acceptable combat accuray which since the OP asked about reliablity not tack drivers I would assume thats what matters. Honestly Hk makes a fine gun but no better than a Sig, or Glock. All your paying for at that point is the name and I suspect lots of people would pay big money for a freshly laid turd as long as it has the Hk logo on it.

BamBam-31
January 14, 2007, 05:21 AM
The Glock, while reliable, is far from accurate...

I beg to differ. Greatly.

On average, I can hit the 100 yd. steel gong at Angeles Shooting Range maybe 8 out of 10 times offhand with my G17. I can do no better with my 1.5" guarantee Les Baer Premier Supertac.

IOW, I think it's safe to say that when people claim, "Glocks aren't accurate," more often than not it's the shooters who are not shooting up to their pistols' inherent accuracy potential. Could be the platform simply doesn't fit that particular shooter. Glocks definitely aren't for everyone. Doesn't mean the platform itself isn't accurate.

hemiram
January 14, 2007, 07:19 AM
McGunner said:

"I WON'T buy an AMT or a Auto Ordinance ever again.

I learned that lesson too. I didn't remember who made the turd until I read your post. I bought an extended slide SS 1911 .45 ACP in 81 or so (I really suck on dates) and it was a disaster! At first, it jammed because it was new, I told myself, then it was a bad mag. I switched it with a known good one another guy had and nothing changed. I trip back to Ontario, CA (I think that's where they were) accomplished nothing, except to give it a few scratches. I finally had a local gunsmith look at it, and he said it was very sloppy, but he could fix it, if I wanted to pay to do it. He did solve the major problem, the jamming in just a few minutes. It didn't jam too much after that, but anything other than hardball was iffy, at best. I sold it and ate my loss. My friend didn't listen and bought a standard sized one a few months later and it was even worse. He dumped it for a used Colt, and was very happy with it.

varoadking
January 14, 2007, 07:47 AM
Glocks definitely aren't for everyone. Doesn't mean the platform itself isn't accurate.


To borrow your phrase...I beg to differ.

On average, I can hit the 100 yd. steel gong at Angeles Shooting Range maybe 8 out of 10 times offhand with my G17. I can do no better with my 1.5" guarantee Les Baer Premier Supertac.../...more often than not it's the shooters who are not shooting up to their pistols' inherent accuracy potential.

I would agree with you here... :neener:

Desertscout
January 14, 2007, 11:46 AM
As for the glock hysteria in the thread. I rented a glock the other day at the range. I had exactley 3 stove pipes and 4 FTE.And that was only shooting 50 rds.

Out of the untolled hundreds of thousands of rounds that I have seen shot through pretty much every model of Glock in existence, I have only seen this happen about 5-6 times. I would have to say that either you are not telling the truth, you were shooting faulty ammo or the malfs were shooter induced. I doubt very seriously that it was any fault of the gun.

BTW, stovepipes and FTE's are the same thing...:rolleyes:

varoadking, while Glocks may not be the MOST accurate handgun on the planet, there are very few stock guns that beat them. Below are a few pics from my range...

6 shots fired at 100 yards from a makeshift bench. 5 of the shots are in 5.094" with the 6th shot opening the group up to 9.875".
The gun was my everyday G23 with all of the modifications that we offer shooting 165 PMC FMJ's. Can I do it every day on demand? probably not but the gun can.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/Desertscout1/IMG_100yds.jpg

This is 5 shots fired from a standing position at 7 yds. with my G17. If I hadn't pulled my 3rd shot out to 11:00, it would have been about a one-bullet-diameter hole. The bottom group is also 5 shots but it is a little sloppy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/Desertscout1/IMG_ORH.jpg

Most any of my Glocks will shoot around 2" at 25 yards which is far from what I would call "inaccurate". It all depends on the ammo that I use, the position used, distance and, of course, how well I'm shooting on a particular day.

McCall911
January 14, 2007, 11:58 AM
A vote for Smith & Wesson's 3rd generation autoloaders.

And, yes, I own one.

IndianaBoy
January 14, 2007, 12:51 PM
My CZ 75B has NEVER jammed.

It has been shot and shot until filthy, and then shot a lot more.

Numbingly cold days when slide grease and oil can get gummy when full of firing residue? Not a hiccup.

I would have said SIG but the trigger bar spring in my 225 broke a few hundred rounds ago.

dhoomonyou
January 14, 2007, 01:01 PM
GLOCK.

Limp wrist or not.

1911 guy
January 14, 2007, 01:21 PM
Are we comparing designs or a stock wundergun with Bubbas kitchen table special done with a bastard file and ball peen hammer?

Give me a properly set up 1911 done by a reputable 'smith or factory and I'll keep up with the Tactical Tupperware guys. Oh, wait. I've already done that.

twolf811
January 14, 2007, 01:39 PM
Glock

Ghostrider_23
January 14, 2007, 01:44 PM
Davis Industries :what:

Bersa :confused:

Cobra Enterprises :eek:

Are all top and do a heck of a lot better than a H&K, Sig or XD :neener:

JAMES77257
January 14, 2007, 01:47 PM
http://membres.lycos.fr/shooter/glock/glock4.html



Chuck Taylor's findings.

Plink
January 14, 2007, 06:34 PM
I'd say probably the CZ-75B. Ruger's P series guns come to mind also. I've had a number of them over the years, from the P-85 on. In fact, my P-85, their first attempt at such a gun, has been 100% reliable for nearly 20 years now. I use it as a loaner to new shooters and it has had over 30,000 rounds through it without a failure. It has never had a part changed other than recoil springs which should be routinely replaced in any autoloader. I don't keep it all that clean either.

The CZ's I've had experience with seem to be about the same as far as reliability, but mine hasn't had nearly the same number of rounds through it as my Ruger has. It's more accurate, has a better trigger and just has better fit and finish overall. I've put over 7,000 rounds through it so far without a single failure.

For honorable mention, I have a Colt .38 Super from the early '70's that has had over 10,000 rounds of hot handloads through it and it hasn't had any problems either. I hesitate to bring the 1911 into this as there are so many makers of varying quality.

squid8286
January 14, 2007, 09:49 PM
double post

squid8286
January 14, 2007, 09:52 PM
For a "stock" handgun, anything in the SIG 220 series.

nathan
January 15, 2007, 12:03 AM
Sig 228 . I love mine. FEG PJK 9 HP Hi power clone has been flawless.

hkenvy91
January 15, 2007, 12:14 AM
id say most all mentioned here. my preference is my H&K uspc45

YoPedro
January 15, 2007, 12:37 AM
I’m sorry, but all the posts about the Glock?!

Don’t the French police carry 9mm Glocks? I mean come on guys! THE FRENCH? Any society that ranks Jerry Lewis as a comic genius and have mimes as street entertainment plus eat egg pie (quiche) and the men kiss each other on the cheeks? They can’t even hold cigarettes right! You just can’t take the French seriously, so how could you trust the Glock?? Is their even a Chevy pick-up in France, or do they have to go and borrow one from England or Spain when they need one? Please, an Austrian weapon favored by the French, ha!

Don't they also have man-purses too?!?!

bobhaverford
January 15, 2007, 12:51 PM
YoPedro,

I like the way you think. And as a general rule, one can be guided by such considerations. However, it would seem that even a blind squirrel can find the acorn sometimes.

I think the only fair knock on the Glocks, aesthetics aside, insofar as their reliability and design are concerned is the not fully supported chamber issue.

The Springfield XD, from what I understand, has addressed this issue, and while it doesn't have as long a track record as the Glock, would seem to be of equal reliability, durability and accuracy.

Comments?

bobhaverford
January 21, 2007, 10:18 PM
Just bought Massad Ayoob's book, "Beretta Pistols" wherein he unapologetically defends the Beretta 92FS as "the most reliable semiauto pistol you can buy out of the box today." He says "Those who've raised their voices to condemn the 92 series Beretta fall into three categories: competitors beaten out on testing, .45 fans, and those who detest double-action autos in general. All three fit another category: sore losers."

Furthermore, "There is simply no other combat auto that comes from the factory with as smooth running a slide as the Beretta 92. It's the envy of the industry in this regard. . . It's double action trigger pull is, if not the best, right up there among the top two or three. . . Only the SIG can equal or barely exceed it in accuracy on a level playing field. . . I've been enormously impressed with the reliability of the countless Berettas I've seen go through my school. . . I can put any firearm I want next to my bed to protect my family and the gun I do put there is a Beretta 92 stainless.

"Every single one of [my] military sources said that the guns were working fine [in Iraq and Afghanistan] with Beretta magazines. . . The Beretta Model 92 is an extremely accurate pistol . . . and today's Beretta 92s are probably the most accurate they've ever been. Experts everywhere attest to the awesome reliability of the Beretta 92."

Quite a testimony to the reliability of the venerable Beretta 92. I know I love mine.

bearmgc
January 21, 2007, 10:21 PM
Walther P99

HiroProX
January 22, 2007, 06:30 AM
I'll nominate the Ruger P85 Mk2. If for no other reason than mine's spent more time with me than any of my other handguns. It's been used as a beater gun, camping gun, and has had god knows how many rounds of all bullet types and loadings run through it.

Phil DeGraves
January 22, 2007, 10:15 AM
Let's see. The 1911 has ben around for nearly a century, and no less than 12 companies produce them EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE DESIGNS OF THEIR OWN! It is obvious that the most reliable design EVER is the 1911! This in no way is a slam to all the other reliable designs, but under the context of the question, this is the obvious answer.

RedTape
January 22, 2007, 12:04 PM
I would have said Glock, HK, and Sig, but the G19 stovepiped on me the other day. My HKs and Sig have been 100% so I have to give it to them. I still like the Glock, but it hasn't seen near the rounds the other guns have. Don't drink the Kool-Aid, they're all machines.

dstorm1911
January 22, 2007, 01:43 PM
The Glock... the pistol designed for police duty, ya'll do realize that is the standard right? Austria has no real standing army so no need to design the pistol to endure more than the average police officer could throw at it.

The Springfield XD or more correctly the HS2000 (o.k I admit I can't spell its Croation name!!) Was designed for very harsh military service, the Croations not being real big on honering patents shamlessly stole the best design features from these 3 guns

Glock, the frame and trigger safty, concept of the frame block but the croations made theires heavier and tougher

SIG P220 series slide and trigger geometry

1911; grip safty (why shoot yourself while re-holstering if ya don't have to, (BTW this is alarmingly common with Glocks in police dept. due to items like retention straps or shirts depressing Glocks only safty) True single action only for smoother trigger crisper release, the original military surplus imports were very very crisp, unfortunatly Springfields lawyers about had a stroke so extra creep and reset had to be engineered into it for the XD series

I've got a generation 1 HS2000 bought as a military surplus gun well used etc.. for $180 it now has over 35K rnds through it with zero failures of any kind and up untill I was told it "might" be collectable it got the crap beat outa it cause I bought it to be abused, I don't care for plastic guns nor striker fired guns but the d@mned thing sold me on em and now I got so many d@mn plastic guns by several manufactures including Glocks I gotta worry bout how hot my range bag gets!!

OH, and while ya'll was busy bickering nobody mentioned the Sig 210 (the original not the remake) I've got one that was given to me years ago which was shamelessly stolen from the Swiss military by the friend who passed it on to me as part of his esate when he died (I got his gun collection cause he couldn't think of anyone else as nuts as he was) it was totally reliable while he carried it as an officer in the Swiss Army, it was always reliable while he used it in the Arizona deserts and its always been my "sleeper" as I don't really like 9 mms anymore than I like plastic guns but this thing will consistantly shoot rifle like groups at 100+ yards


BTW, The HS2000 was designed specifically for military service under extremally harsh conditions, its also the only plastic gun to ever smoke the Glock in their own torture tests not with a hand selected test specimen but with a randomly picked gun, they then burned 17000 rnds through it BEFORE starting the Glock 10,000 rnd torture test of abuse, no cleaning, freezing etc etc. etc... Glock hadda bring in a pinch hitter to finish the tests the XD.... same gun that started the tests finished the tests ;-)

doubleg
January 22, 2007, 02:06 PM
Out of the untolled hundreds of thousands of rounds that I have seen shot through pretty much every model of Glock in existence, I have only seen this happen about 5-6 times. I would have to say that either you are not telling the truth, you were shooting faulty ammo or the malfs were shooter induced. I doubt very seriously that it was any fault of the gun.I am a fan of glocks, I even plan on buying a 34 in the future. My point is that EVERY PISTOL JAMS. I'm so sick of hearing these storyies that glocks are supernatural maricle guns that will decompose before they jam. Maybe it was the ammo because I shot one or two glocks before they and they worked fine.

STAGE 2
January 22, 2007, 02:23 PM
Just a few thoughts...

Every maker has a pistol that jams. Period.

A properly set up 1911 is just as reliable as any glock and 4 times as pretty.

Most 1911's aren't properly set up from the factory.

Pistols in their 9mm flavor are usually more reliable than their .45 counterpart.

The Sig 226 and whatever Gaston's fullsize 9 is are probably the most reliable out of the box.

For .45 the HK USP gets the nod. Its like a glock but accurate.

Rumble
January 22, 2007, 02:42 PM
I don't really have the experience or round count to give a solid report. I know that Glocks have a stellar reputation for reliability, so that would be my recommendation. I have a CZ P-01 with premature slide lock issues (I am experimenting with better mag springs; we'll see how that goes), and a bone-stock Springfield MilSpec that has fed everything I've ever put through it without a problem (granted, that's only a few hundred rounds).

Incidentally, Desertscout: FTE is not necessarily the same as a stovepipe, if one means failure to extract instead of failure to eject. Ultimately, if you can't extract, you can't eject, but there is a distinction.

GaryP
January 22, 2007, 11:10 PM
HK USP45F & HK USP45C most certainly!

Glock = Want-a-be HK :neener:

:evil:

461
January 22, 2007, 11:33 PM
After doing my own research for several years I settled on a Glock (34)as my only centerfire semi auto. It hasn't let me down yet.

Bronson7
January 23, 2007, 12:01 PM
Glock for sure, though honestly never tried the others, other than 1911s. As far as the most aesthetically pleasing? BHP hands down. That has to be the most beautiful handgun ever.
Bronson7

NeveraVictimAgain
January 23, 2007, 01:22 PM
+1 for the venerable Makarov. A member of www.gunboards.com/forums/makarov once wanted to see how many rounds his Mak would go between cleanings. After 10,000 (!) rounds he gave up and cleaned it. :D

BobTheTomato
January 23, 2007, 01:25 PM
AK pistol

doubleg
January 23, 2007, 01:33 PM
I definatley agree.^ CASE CLOSED....

Tom Servo
January 23, 2007, 02:19 PM
Any machine with moving parts is likely to fail at some point. Things wear down, small parts break. Same goes for revolvers, though it's less common.

From personal experience, I'd stick with Sigs. I have four currently, and only one has ever had a malfunction-a one-time stovepipe I've never been able to repeat.

I had an old P239 in .357 that failed to chamber twice in 1200 rounds, and I considered that cause for serious concern :)

OTOH, I've seen several Glocks fail. Usually, it's small-parts breakage. I've seen three trigger-return springs in the last year, and a couple of broken guide-rods. Granted, these were all in guns that were poorly maintained by their owners.

I'd avoid "fancy" or "custom" designs, though I have a couple of 1911's that have proven themselves reliable. Even so, for some reason, I still lean toward the Sigs.

Seminole
January 23, 2007, 11:50 PM
Mine.



:D

Baphomet
January 24, 2007, 12:04 AM
The Ruger MKI/II .22 pistol.

HA!! Debate that that pistols not reliable, I dare you!

Relodr
January 25, 2007, 09:21 PM
Folks:
The key words here are "MOST RELIABLE". I presently own a Para P-14, Sig P220, HK USP, BHP, Beretta 92F, Ruger MKII, Buckmark .22, an old P-38, new XD, Ruger P90, a tiny NAA .32, a tiny Kel-Tech .32, and even an antique ( 1927) Colt 1903. Had a Glock .45 that was way too large for my hands and Seecamp .32 that was stolen from my locker along with the ankle holster. Hard to say what's more fun, a day on the trap range or sending 500 rounds of .45 ACP down range.
All of these pistols have had all the professional ( Cylinder & Slide, Novaks, Kings, etc.) polishing, relieving, you name it, reliability tuning available, and I use only the best magazines money can buy, trashing them at the slightest hint of wear/damage (getting stepped on during training/competition is by far the biggest problem). . Its the nature of the beast! All semi-autos have a dynamically complicated mechanism to strip rounds from a spring loaded magazine that changes tension with every round, bounce the rounds up a ramp to an off axis barrel opening, slide the rounds up between a breech face and an extractor, go into battery if the case is not too long for the chambe and, if held solidly enough between the breech face and the extractor for a solid primer hit, go bang. (No amount of praying helps with an out of battery pistol during a scuffle.)
All that said, of all the above handguns, the 1911's are at the bottom of the reliability list. Just pay attention to who has stoppages at your next Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, etc. training class. [B]The absolutely most reliable semi-autos are the Sig and HK. And, wonder of wonders, out of the box, they are way more accurate than any of the others (except the tack driving MKII and Buckmark of course )
If the firepower, fast reloads, and coolness factor, of a semi-auto are needed, they are the hands down best choices.
If not, a revolver is and always has been the utter reliability king. Never once in hundreds of thousand of rounds over 40+ years has any of mine, or for that matter anyone I know, ever failed to go bang, even those shot loose as a goose.

wga
January 25, 2007, 11:15 PM
In my personal experiences with my own weapons and that of my shooting companians, I would have to say my number one Most Reliable is my Sig 220P.
It has never jammed, never failed with any reload I have fed it, and nothing has ever broke, come loose, out of sinc, etc. Second Most Reliable is my Beretta Cougar 8000. Same experience; never a problem or disappointment. Both have been shot a fair amount, although they are both far from mechanical wear that could potentially effect reliability. I simply choose the Sig over the Couger for personal preference in caliber.

Il Duca
January 25, 2007, 11:37 PM
P226, can't make mine jam. Feeds empties when trying to jam it. It will not stop. I have seen far more Glocks fail than I have Sigs.

nathan
January 26, 2007, 01:53 AM
Sig 228, the best there is plus a 15 rder mag completes the package.

4fingermick
January 26, 2007, 08:18 AM
I've had colt 1911s (2), Springfield 1911 (2), CZ75, Ruger 45, can't remember the model no, Glock 26 and a 92FS Beretta.

All except the Springfields, which were bog standard 1911A1s, have been very reliable. I put about 3000 through the Commander before the Govt crushed it, perfect function. I have put about 500 factories and about 600 cast reloads (all 165 power factor 38Supers), no probs apart from wearing a spot on my trigger finger with the rough inner part of the trigger guard, about 500 rounds through the Ruger, worked fine, very accurate, sold it to my friend to shut him up, cheeze! the Glock was a honey of a gun, but the gummint got that one too, the CZ was my first auto, worked a treat. It was the only auto that didn't bite me (I have big hands). I love the ergonomics of the Beretta, but am not keen on how the gun can be ripped apart so easily bu someone who knows how to do it. Unlikely to happen, but I'm not real keen on that aspect.

They all work fine, but standard 1911s need some gunsmithing in my experience. Most other guns seem to work straight out of the box.

VPJack
January 26, 2007, 01:41 PM
Well I guess that something can be said for the CZ. In the army tests that produced the Beretta the comparitor was the CZ, however it was not in the running as it was a "communist block" pistol. Col. Cooper called it the best 9mm service pistol in the world. Testing for the new P-01 was remarkably tough and it passed without any problems even against US Army standards.

http://www.czusa.com/media_releases.php?m=4&msgid=37

Jack(just my 2 cents and worth every penny)

PistolShooter1
January 26, 2007, 01:48 PM
THe most reliable-- H & K P7M8.

Most reliable and durable. Glock 19.

dasmi
January 26, 2007, 02:01 PM
My Bulgarian Makarov has never jammed, even with crappy Hungarian surplus ammo.

fastbolt
January 26, 2007, 03:19 PM
Hard to answer this question when considering the practicalities of the real world ... especially when you have to factor in more than just the firearm. It's not functioning in a vacuum, so to speak, or isolated from the rest of the world.

Notwithstanding the quality and inherent mechanical limitations of any pistol, other factors which may affect functioning include the ammunition used, the shooter, maintenance and the environment in which its being used.

As a LE firearms instructor I've seen a fair variety of firearms. (Which doesn't count that I started learning to shoot about 49 years ago.) I've observed them being used by other folks, and then I've personally handled and fired a fair number of them myself.

As a factory trained & certified LE armorer for a few manufacturer's products I've listened to the armorer instructors (and factory techs) discuss potential problems that may occur with various pistols, as well as how to inspect and identify the probable cause(s) and correct problems. I have yet to hear a firearms manufacturer say that their product will never experience a problem in the hands of a LE user ...

I've owned and used a number of examples of specific makes/models/calibers of pistols which have yet to exhibit functioning issues in my hands, and then I've experienced the occasional functioning problem with a different example of the same make/model/caliber. Watched some other folks do the same thing. Listened carefully to other experienced armorers, as well as factory folks and gunsmiths, when they described their own experiences, as well.

When I had the chance to talk to another armorer who had returned from serving overseas, the subject of firearms functioning in an extreme environment (fine sand) naturally came up, and I asked about his experiences. He was willing to discuss his experiences regarding carrying/using 4 different models of pistols produced by 3 of the major manufacturers while serving over there. All but one of them were adversely affected by the sand and experienced functioning issues. A couple of them experienced problems within a day of being carried and used. Doesn't really matter which makes/models/calibers were involved, though, since it might be possible to take a different set of examples of the same makes/models, and have a different set of results experienced in the same conditions in the hands of the same, or a different, person. Sand is a harsh environment, and it might be reasonable to conjecture that frequent maintenance is critical in such harsh and extreme environments.

BTW, don't bother asking what the makes/models were, since I no lomger have much desire or interest when it comes to listening to some folks start passionately defending their favorite pistols as if they were personally insulted by someone else's experiences. While I only met the fellow during an armorer's class, I have no particular reason to feel inclined to disbelieve his claimed experiences. He didn't really seem to be holding out that any particular make/model was better than another, even the one pistol which didn't exhibit any sand-related issues, and he actually seemed a bit surprised to relate how one of the pistols actually didn't exhibit any functioning issues during his usage in that environment. Besides, in keeping with the way things actually occur in the big, wide world ... I can think of a couple of instances where a couple examples of pistols from the same manufacturer which worked so well for that fellow in his instance, actually exhibited functioning issues on the range where I work, which is covered in sand, and which were seemingly related to sand, in the hands of other folks.;)

I've taken examples of quality pistols, often loudly lauded by many enthusiasts on different firearms forums, and experienced some occasional functioning issue, as well as observed other trained users experience occasional issues with them. It happens.

Talked to folks from other LE agencies who related functioning problems experienced within their respective agencies when it came to many of the well known manufacturers. It happens.

I've also attended various LE training classes over the years and had the opportunity to observe folks experience functioning issues with various manufacturer's makes/models/calibers service pistols, too.

Want to guess how quickly someone can become interested in what might've caused a functioning problem with a specific make/model/caliber, in the hands of a specific user, after a pistol was unable to be properly used because of a functioning problem in the middle of a deadly force encounter when shots were fired? "Brand loyalty" and personal favoritism quickly pales when considered against how lucky someone may have been in not being seriously injured or killed by gunfire when their issued pistol failed to properly function during a deadly force encounter. Excuses and brand loyalty become rather weak when considered against lives. Identifying the actual issues(s) involved ... whether it be individual firearm, ammunition, maintenance, environment of shooter-related ... and then taking whatever corrective action would seem likely to help prevent a similar occurrence, would seem to be the prudent course ...

Lots of high quality examples of semiauto pistols being produced. Doesn't mean problems won't occur.

Like most other folks, I have my own preferences when it comes to personally owned defensive pistols, based upon acquired knowledge and my own experiences ... and I've had confidence in the many issued pistols which I've carried and used over the years since we adopted semiauto pistols instead of revolvers. Granted, there are other makes/models in which I would also feel confidence if they had been, or were to be in the future, issued to me.

There are a number of excellent designs, produced as high quality pistols from reputable manufacturers available nowadays ...

Things happen, though ...

I prefer to be aware of potential issues which may adversely affect the normal functioning of my defensive pistols.

Just my thoughts.

DON.V
January 26, 2007, 07:25 PM
carry a sig 226. owned sig,glock,and beretta. i used to hear alot about glocks being sensitive to limp wristing. in my model 19 and 21 i could not induce a jam by limpwristing them. they were all reliable i just personally prefer the sig.

crebralfix
January 26, 2007, 07:30 PM
SIG, HK, Glock, Springfield, Beretta...oh...all of them.

CountGlockula
January 26, 2007, 08:16 PM
Ding, ding...Glock.

bobhaverford
January 26, 2007, 10:15 PM
4fingermick,
From Massad Ayoob's book:
No case of [ripping apart the gun by bad guys] either deliberately or accidentally has ever been recorded in real life. It can be done in demonstrations, but it takes about twice as long as it would take to rip any whole gun out of a user's hand and would require the good guy to stand ther and let it happen. This seems to be another urban legend like the alligators in the sewers.

aaronrkelly
January 27, 2007, 10:49 AM
Love it or hate it......the answer is GLOCK on this one.

40jjb
January 27, 2007, 11:23 AM
The best out there to my opinion is the GLOCK 27 - 30, they are reliable, very acurate out of the box, No break in period needed, Low maintanance, Rust resistant, example can be placed in the Ocean salt water for a lenth of time take it and will not have sign of rust, Has past numerous torture test, its the fire arm of choice of almost all Police force, Most security Companies use the Glock 9mm other than the standard 38 spl., need I to say more......:what: :)

40jjb
January 27, 2007, 11:39 AM
Kel tech P32 32 acp been around for a while and functions great, realy acurate and fun to shoot.!!!!! so I have 2 choices.

Blacklabman
January 27, 2007, 01:28 PM
I have owned many makes and models over the years. The answer is........................ GLOCK

I prefer the G26, G17, G29, G20 models.

PX15
January 27, 2007, 06:34 PM
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_5833.jpg


Give that credit to Italian gun manufacturer Pietro Galesi and his small auto-loaders..

My personal 25cal has been completely unreliable now for lo' these 40+ years.
Wouldn't feed a full magazine without screwing up in 1966, still maintaining that record in 2007! :barf:

Oops,

I thought this thread was about the most "dead solid UNreliable pistol"

My bad.. 'Cuse me...


Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy

TNT.45
January 29, 2007, 02:45 AM
1911

Marko Kloos
January 29, 2007, 08:02 AM
I love the ergonomics of the Beretta, but am not keen on how the gun can be ripped apart so easily bu someone who knows how to do it. Unlikely to happen, but I'm not real keen on that aspect.

Ugh. I have come to really, really dislike Mel Gibson and that stupid Lethal Weapon series just for that undying urban legend alone, never mind the anti-NRA propaganda they put into LW4.

To wit: you cannot remove the slide from a loaded and unmodified Beretta 92 without the active participation of the person holding the gun. You have to depress the takedown release on the right side of the frame while simultaneously rotating the takedown lever on the left side of the frame. Nobody has that kind of dexterity and speed to pull off both steps before the owner of the gun can pull the trigger, unless said owner is asleep at the switch.

If you still cling to that fantasy, google "Jet Li Lethal Weapon screenshots", and you will find that the Beretta 92 held by Gibson in that scene already had the takedown lever rotated into the "down" position.

GRP
January 29, 2007, 06:59 PM
I'll vote for Glock, I have a G19 and however you wrist it, it never jams. It's also easy to shoot good.

vesmcd
January 30, 2007, 02:03 AM
Webley-Fosberry (:p just because nobody posted it yet :neener: )

obxned
February 1, 2007, 05:47 PM
If I could only have 1 gun and it had to last me through decades of use without any help from a gunsmith and had to go BANG when I pulled the trigger with all sorts of ammo and it had to do the job on the other end, again with any and all ammo, then I can think of only 1 gun.

Dave Markowitz
February 1, 2007, 09:55 PM
Most modern service pistols when well made, fed halfway decent ammo, and using good magazines will be very, very reliable. That said, my choices would be, in no particular order:

* M-1911, if made as JMB intended. E.g., no MIM parts, spring steel extractor, and a 7 round mag with the dimple on the follower.

* FN/Browning High Power. My BHP Practical would be my first choice in a service auto, anywhere in the world. Energizer Bunny reliability with the best ergonomics on the planet.

* Glock 17. The best and most reliable of all the Glocks. I don't particularly like them, but I respect them.

* Ruger P-xx. I think of these as the Kalashnikov of autopistols. Strong like bull. The P-90s in .45 ACP are also soft-shooting and extremely accurate.

* Makarov. My PM has actually been my the most reliable autoloader I've ever shot. The only malf was a single failure of the slide to lock back when empty, but otherwise no failures to feed, fire, or eject.

* Tokarev TT-33. Feels like you're holding a carpenter's square but they just work.

* Beretta M92/M9, as much as I dislike the design, they are reliable when not worn out or using lowest-bidder GI mags.

* SIG M11. If I was in the service and issued a handgun, this would be the one I'd want.

bobhaverford
February 1, 2007, 11:47 PM
Dave, why do you dislike the Beretta 92 design?

Kimber1911_06238
February 1, 2007, 11:52 PM
1911

HKGuns
February 2, 2007, 07:44 PM
If it was up your Butt you'd know it.

Redhat
February 2, 2007, 08:09 PM
1911 or 1911A1

Dave Markowitz
February 2, 2007, 08:24 PM
Dave, why do you dislike the Beretta 92 design?

I have small hands, and the M9 grossly oversized for a 9mmP, IMO. In contrast, the Browning High Power holds as many rounds (with Mec Gar mags) in a design that is much smaller. Other 9mmPs which fit me well include the Radom and SIG P225.

This is basically a matter of personal taste. Note that I'm not saying that the M9 is a bad gun, only oversized for the round it chambers. If anyone else likes it, no skin off my back.

TC-TX
February 2, 2007, 10:09 PM
BHP

gord1138
February 3, 2007, 02:36 PM
I have a 1954 CZ-52 7.62X25 cal, i have personally put over 1000 rnds in one day and never a hiccup. Dead on accurate. And no one said here yet!:o

txgolfer45
February 3, 2007, 07:41 PM
Glock! :D ;)

markmc753
February 3, 2007, 07:46 PM
Built like a tank and dead solid reliable: DDR or Bulgarian Makarov

RNB65
February 3, 2007, 08:00 PM
A lot of folks have danced around it, but no one has given the obvious answer. The most dead solid reliable autoloader design ever is the Browning short-recoil system. John Browning invented it and almost every gun manufacturer on the planet copied it.

Ol' JMB really knew his stuff, huh?.

:)

tango3065
February 3, 2007, 10:19 PM
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q249/mastinson/Glock19-1.jpg

bobhaverford
February 3, 2007, 11:27 PM
Not to be obtuse, but what is the short recoil system and what guns incorporate that feature?

And yes, as much as actual guns, I was interested in specific design features and a discussion of the pros and cons of various designs.

ezypikns
February 3, 2007, 11:38 PM
my Bulgarian Makarov? Never a failure. With ANY type of ammo.

Autolycus
February 4, 2007, 12:26 AM
This is way to broad a topic.

Every gun will have failures. Any modern handgun should be reliable.

TimboKhan
February 4, 2007, 12:51 AM
Just in my own experience, my P90 is about as reliable as I would ever expect a auto gun to be. I won't keep a gun that isn't reliable, but out of all of the guns that I own, that would be the one that I would gamble the most money on in a reliability contest. Thats just based off of my experience.

Big Bore
February 4, 2007, 01:11 AM
"A properly set up 1911 is just as reliable as any glock and 4 times as pretty."

What is a "properly set up 1911."

RNB65
February 4, 2007, 01:15 AM
Not to be obtuse, but what is the short recoil system and what guns incorporate that feature?

Here are a couple of articles that explain the short-recoil system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation
http://www.rkba.org/guns/principles/operating-systems/short-recoil.html

Handgun manufacturers which use the Browning style short-recoil system include Browning, Colt (and all other 1911 makers), Sig Sauer, Glock, CZ, Ruger, Smith&Wesson, FN, Kahr, and I'm sure there are others that I don't know about.

tango3065
February 4, 2007, 01:25 AM
"A properly set up 1911 is just as reliable as any glock and 4 times as pretty."

What is a "properly set up 1911."

And how many parts and man hours would be required for this properly set up 1911 :confused:

RNB65
February 4, 2007, 01:28 AM
M-1911, if made as JMB intended. E.g., no MIM parts, spring steel extractor, and a 7 round mag with the dimple on the follower.

What exactly is the purpose of the dimple on the follower on 1911 mags? Other than making it a bit of a challenge to load the first round?

:confused:

Big Bore
February 4, 2007, 02:44 AM
Let me say that I am somewhat ignorant about firearms, and handguns in particular. As a kid I went "plinking" with my dad alot, usually with rifles, and took an NRA marksmanship course.

For years I held an ambivalent attitude about guns, until I moved to Washingon DC. One night walking on a street, I had to listen to a group of teenage boys argue the merits of shooting me ("Hey, give me the gun--let's shoot this guy in the back of the head and take his money"). I figured they were "joking" but the fact that my only option was to HOPE they were joking, really angered me. After that, I became a 2nd Amendment guy.

That said, I have two things to offer for this thread. One, if you wake up in the middle of the night to find a screaming maniac with a kitchen knife running towards you, why would you want an autoloader? Based on this thread, and my own (limited) experience, you just don't know for sure what will happen when you squeese the trigger on an autoloader. In a desperate situation, every time you squeese the trigger you have to be thinking, "I hope this goes off." I don't see that as being a question with a revolver. Am I wrong about this--on a revolver, squeeze the trigger--boom! The weakest link in a revolver is the primer--right?

Two, (and to the point of this thread) although I'm ignorant, I'm not wet behind the ears. Most of my hand gun experience is with the 1911, as an Army officer. Back about 1989, in my little corner of the Army, when I was a lieutenant, my number came up for range duty. I had done range duty before, on M16s, but I got tasked for an M1911 range. As it turned out, in my little corner of the Army, there had not been an M1911 range in a long time. And although the range was supposed to be for the officers and senior enlisted of my unit, many senior officers and NCOs showed up from our division headquarters.

Anyway, I had a bunch of yahoos show up at my range, some colonels and sergeants major from division HQ. They were wielding side arms that, over the years, had gone from the arms room to their holsters (once every few months) and back again. For the most part, they had not been cleaned, or fired, for years. I had a lot of trouble that day, trouble being a lieutenant having to direct a range full of colonels and senior NCOs--but we didn't have a single malfunction. I probably put a 100 people through that range, most of them firing decades-old M1911s that hadn't been fired or cleaned in years--about 5,000 rounds--no failures.

Finally, still proclaiming my ignorance, I'll say this--style matters. Style differentiates a man who will fight, from one who will not. In my humble opinion, an M1911 is a suitable weapon for a man, because it looks like a manís weapon.

bobhaverford
February 4, 2007, 11:31 AM
Finally, still proclaiming my ignorance, I'll say this--style matters. Style differentiates a man who will fight, from one who will not. In my humble opinion, an M1911 is a suitable weapon for a man, because it looks like a man’s weapon.

Now THAT'S the most politically incorrect thing I've read in quite some time. I couldn't agree more with the sentiment.

Esto vir!

K.L.O.sako
February 4, 2007, 05:02 PM
the single most reliable handgun i've ever owned period. is without a doubt the ruger KP90DC it was the only pistol i've ever had that would feed empties, when me and my buddies would do practice drills, we'd load each others mags to see if we were pushing or anticipateing the shot . it fed them every time, i thought this was so cool that i put afew in backwards and it fed them too.
I had one failure to fire in over 3000 rounds and it wasn't the pistols fault. i was using ultra cheap lead ammo (3$ for 50) and the bullet was seated wrong, in that it left a 1/16 ring of lead above the case mouth witch wouldn't let the slide go into battery. not the pistols fault. it was the most accurate and easy to shoot of all my pistols, hope this helps :)

BsChoy
February 4, 2007, 05:11 PM
OK my .02....I have had no gun related malf's in any glock either issued by my dept or bought. I own a 17,19, and a new to me 21 as of yesterday. I could easily point the finger at crappy ammo, or magazine failure on beat to HE double hockey sticks issued magazines. They are the best combat pistol since the 1911 hit the market.

bobhaverford
February 5, 2007, 11:22 AM
Here are a couple of articles that explain the short-recoil system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation
http://www.rkba.org/guns/principles/...rt-recoil.html

Handgun manufacturers which use the Browning style short-recoil system include Browning, Colt (and all other 1911 makers), Sig Sauer, Glock, CZ, Ruger, Smith&Wesson, FN, Kahr, and I'm sure there are others that I don't know about.

Excellent links. Thank you

buck00
February 5, 2007, 11:10 PM
GLOCK :evil:

TimboKhan
February 5, 2007, 11:16 PM
you just don't know for sure what will happen when you squeese the trigger on an autoloader.

Speaking for myself, I know for sure whats going to happen when I pull the trigger on any of my "combat" guns. It's going to go boom, really loudly. If it doesn't, it's going to be the ammo's fault and in that case, it wouldn't have mattered a bit what gun or platform it was in.

Do autos have issues from time to time? Yes! They are a mechanical device and as such are prone to failure. However, after shooting each of my "combat" guns a whole lot, I have all the confidence in the world in them. My P90 is probably approaching 50,000 rounds fired through it with only a couple non-ammo related odditys early on. If after all that I can't rely on it, I don't think I could honestly say that I could rely on ANY handgun, regardless of the platform.

damyankee
February 6, 2007, 12:41 PM
Hk USP, im sure if you did the homework on failure rates Hk would be right around the top or at the top of having the least.

Dravur
February 6, 2007, 03:41 PM
Now, the OP should have realized that this would devolve into "My gun is better than your gun" trashing thread where the GLock guys say that theirs is the best, BHP is the best, 1911 is the best <insert your fave gun here> is the best.

But what really kills me are the revo guys.... the ones who read the title, asking about AUTOLOADER designs and have to chime in with how the discussion should not center on what the OP Wanted, but be hijacked into the Revo guy's direction. So, unless you are talking about an autoloading revolver, it really isn't right to toss in your bias towards revos.

Now, the OP did not ask for an opinion whether the Revo is more reliable than the auto.... he asked what auto was the most reliable. nowhere in his question was... "Hey, I think i'd like to know what a revolver would do in reliability to an auto...."

So, thanks for Chiming in on the great Auto versus Revo debate and let's at least answer the guy's question instead of jumping in and bringing up a whole new topic.

Now, as to what is most reliable? Any mechanical object with parts can break, including revolvers, btw. So, in a purely subjective, but with some logical thinking in it..... What pistol out there is both simple in design, uses fewer parts than most guns, has been through enough torture tests to qualify it for stunt pay and also qualifies as the ugly duckling of the gun world?

Glock

Charles Martel
February 9, 2007, 07:13 PM
It would be interesting to see the Glock, HK and Beretta tested objectively against one another in another military test. I wonder if the Beretta would win again?

High Planes Drifter
February 9, 2007, 08:06 PM
From my experience, a plain Jane 1911; loose as a goose and shaking like a baby rattle as far as fitting.

dogloose
February 9, 2007, 08:11 PM
Guns are mechanical devices... ammo is ALSO a mechanical device (of sorts)... the operator of this combination is human... when all three are thrown together in a shooting environment... anything can and does happen. I carry a well-maintained Glock 19, high quality ammo that I have tested, and I train regularly. The most dead solid reliable pistol is the one I carry.

Eyesac
February 9, 2007, 08:27 PM
+1 Glock

tagaykoyan
February 10, 2007, 05:57 AM
a tuned 1911 would fire any ammo
even a tuned glock would choke on reloads

most firearm makers have produced 1911 clones
i'm sure glock would also want too. just a matter of pride though

Mad Magyar
February 10, 2007, 07:40 AM
The Astra, Star, & Llama in various models have been very good for me over the years...:D

Working Man
February 10, 2007, 07:54 AM
HK,
I've had 4 HKs over the last 10 years and never and I mean never had any
problem.

Ruger,
My Ruger P95, (my first semi) as jiggly as it is, has never had an issue IIRC.

Beretta,
My 92F only 2 jams, one ammo related one my negligence in cleaning
(thought I had cleaned it but hadn't).

Glock,
CHL proficiency test. Several jams.
Friend's Glock, 2 jams per mag even after "I" cleaned it.
Glock (compact .40) that I bought jammed every clip or 2, traded for a HK
and never looked back.
Friends Glock he bought new 9mm I think, takedown, cleaned, oiled, fired... bang, bang, jam.
Never could get it to work right. I need to ask him if he sent it in.

YMMV

Desertscout
February 10, 2007, 11:29 AM
a tuned 1911 would fire any ammo
even a tuned glock would choke on reloads
That's BS.
Other than maybe a few LEO's or other instructors, there's probably not too many folks on this board that have seen any more rounds fired through Glocks (or any other handgun as far as that goes) than I have. I can count ALL of the non-shooter induced malfunctions that I have seen or experienced on Glocks on one hand. A few folks say that they have seen chronic problems or numerous malfunctions in Glocks. I don't believe it. I have seen, literally, millions of rounds fired through Glocks and others the results are very predictable. We used to keep a malfunction log on my range where we logged every malf of any kind on all weapons that were fired. It got to be so predictable that we finally gave it up. The 1911's won the award for the most malfs over all other types and the Glocks had 1 (one) over the 6 months or so that we did it. Everything else was somewhere in between.

Edited to add: I have personally shot many thousands of reloads through 9 different Glocks and have yet to have the first issue of any kind because of it. That is widely spread, unwarranted rumor spread by anti-Glockers that have little or now practical experience with the weapon.

kokapelli
February 10, 2007, 01:44 PM
I agree with Desertscout.

I don't own and don't have any intention of ever buying a Glock, but I can't remember ever seeing anyone have a problem with a Glock when I'm at the range.

I have seen a number of failures with 1911 pistols at the range.

outofbattery
February 10, 2007, 02:19 PM
Iím sorry, but all the posts about the Glock?!

Donít the French police carry 9mm Glocks? I mean come on guys! THE FRENCH? Any society that ranks Jerry Lewis as a comic genius and have mimes as street entertainment plus eat egg pie (quiche) and the men kiss each other on the cheeks? They canít even hold cigarettes right! You just canít take the French seriously, so how could you trust the Glock?? Is their even a Chevy pick-up in France, or do they have to go and borrow one from England or Spain when they need one? Please, an Austrian weapon favored by the French, ha!

Don't they also have man-purses too?!?!

No,they don't carry Glocks- Beretta 92's and SIG Pro 9mm's- you need to edit this to include some facts and some funny.

elprofeloco
February 10, 2007, 02:33 PM
Wake me up when we get to the 4th quarter with two minutes left.

(Golly, gee whiz...I hope this one doesn't go into overtime....uhhhh, are we in overtime now???. Whooze ahead, the Glockophiles, the Siggies, or the 1911ers??? Anyone seen the hotdog vendor?)

Desertscout
February 10, 2007, 02:37 PM
Wake me up when we get to the 4th quarter with two minutes left.

(Golly, gee whiz...I hope this one doesn't go into overtime....uhhhh, are we in overtime now???. Whooze ahead, the Glockophiles, the Siggies, or the 1911ers??? Anyone seen the hotdog vendor?)
Thanks for the useful contribution to the discussion with your 14th post.

Lawnman380
February 10, 2007, 03:31 PM
:D Glock?:D

CraCZ
February 10, 2007, 05:23 PM
Well all you got to do is look at which pistols have been cloned the most: #1 1911, #2 CZ-75

KINGMAX
February 10, 2007, 05:27 PM
GLOCK 21 in .45 acp. I have put thousands of rounds through my GLOCK 21. I cannot remember my FIRST malfunction, misfire, stovepipe, jam of any type.

kokapelli
February 10, 2007, 05:34 PM
Well all you got to do is look at which pistols have been cloned the most: #1 1911, #2 CZ-75

I don't have any figures, but I would suspect that the Walther 32/380 might be #2.

I don't know what that proves anyway.

jlh26oo
February 11, 2007, 07:04 AM
Wellp, looks liek the winner is GLOCK for those who don't have a "limp wrist" (never been able to limp wrist anything, hard as I try); something else for those who do. Go figure.

bow4828
February 11, 2007, 08:10 AM
FN.......any

_N4Z_
February 11, 2007, 11:40 AM
I had a Beretta96 for a little over a year. Liked the design, fit me well, recoil tame in that heavier frame. hehee... a rhyme. :o

BUT, it suffered several jams over the course of around 1500 rounds, and I sold it.

Moved to revolvers (GP100 and SP101) and have not suffered a jam since/yet.

That said, of late I've been eyeballing the Ruger P95's. They have a rep of being the AK of the bottomfeeder world, as well as being accurate. That is very appealing to me.

briansp82593
February 11, 2007, 01:20 PM
sig p225 never a single hiccup and some tight grouping

roadrider18
February 12, 2007, 12:33 PM
Never, ever had a malfunction with the 220, 226 or the P7M8. (thousands of rounds combined)

Can't say the same for my 1911s (Colt/SA), H&K USP Compact (40) and MK23.

PhillyGlocker
February 12, 2007, 09:01 PM
Glock wins. I've fired thousands of rounds through my G26, and it hasn't even given the slightest hint of a problem occuring. It's so reliable that it's boring. I waiting for something to mess up so I can fix it. I like fixing things, and the Glock spoils the fun.

ARTiger
February 12, 2007, 09:15 PM
For me (if size is no object) it'd be my Ruger P90. I have lots of autoloaders in all various calibers and actions most cost a LOT more than this did, but the thing is the "tank" of my collection. Only problem with it is it's huge - only thing bigger I own is a Desert Eagle.3,000+ rounds over 10 years and never a FTF or FTE. Eats everything . . . even cycles shotshells.

Charles Martel
March 3, 2007, 11:50 PM
Difficult for me to say. My inclination is to say that all of the top tier guns are, for all practical purposes, nearly indistinguishable insofar as reliability goes.

I own a Sig 226ST, CZ-75B, Beretta Steel I, and a Sig 228. I am unable to appreciate a difference in reliability. As others have suggested, if it isn't reliable I get rid of it. Same goes for accuracy in my own hands.

Until objective trials are conducted testing random samples of different types of guns under precisely the same conditions I believe that they jury will remain out - unless you wish to accept the results of the US Military Trials 20 years ago. In that case the Beretta 92FS is the most reliable auto pistol.

arizona
March 4, 2007, 12:18 AM
I have never had a FTF or a FTE with a SIG.

cmysprks
March 4, 2007, 12:58 AM
thats easy anthing that begans with glo and ends with ck so any glock would be best

Glock_10mm
March 4, 2007, 03:20 AM
Gotta love the Plastic Fantastic! G19 bought used thousands of rounds, no issues (best of the glocks - well maybe with the G17 as well). 92F a close second, was my favorite 'til I found the Glocks!

jakk280rem
March 4, 2007, 04:16 AM
i cant believe it took 50 posting for someone to cowby up enough to sugest the 1911. +1 for me vern. John browning got it right almost a century ago. and MILLIONS of soldiers around the globe in hundreds of armies. and hundreds of thousands of uniformed and uc police around the world have proved it.

jakk280rem
March 4, 2007, 04:20 AM
cant believe anyone would have the nads to sugest a 92f. our soldiers in iraq put the damn things in ziplocks bags and so they wont jam. that doesnt sound very reliable to me. check out some of the horible things patrick sweeny does to a 1911 in vol 2 of his complete 1911 book. thats reliable.

Mad Magyar
March 4, 2007, 09:05 AM
Browning Hi-Power
Colt Woodsman
Walther PPK
Colt Govt. Model
Sig-P230
Desert Eagle
P.08 Luger :)

agd1953
March 4, 2007, 09:51 AM
Just in my own experience, my P90 is about as reliable as I would ever expect a auto gun to be. I won't keep a gun that isn't reliable, but out of all of the guns that I own, that would be the one that I would gamble the most money on in a reliability contest. Thats just based off of my experience.
I was reluctant to say the Ruger P90 as it has not been mentioned very much, but it is the most reliable gun that I have ever owned, period. I have never had a jamb of any sort and I know in a time of need it will go bang and put the round exactly where they are aimed. great pistol. :D

waynedm
March 4, 2007, 10:39 AM
75 would be carried by the US military right now if not for that country being communist at the time of the M9 selection. As for a newer even higher-grade 75 you get the P01.

. . .
A few years ago, the Czech National Police wanted a new handgun to meet their needs. They wanted a design offering a high-level of comfort and ergonomics, based on the CZ 75 operating system. Called a "Generation 3" pistol, the P-01 is the final result of that journey down the road of new ideas. It fulfills the need for a lightweight, compact pistol having the same durability and accuracy of a full-sized, full-weight pistol. The National Police had a tough list of requirements--so tough, many companies simply bowed-out of the bid process, but CZ staked a claim to the prize--and won it.

Tough Tests

The P-01 was accepted after almost three years of testing and development. What CZ did to win the bid is something that few (how about zero?) designs have ever had to go through before greeting the buying public. For a military gun, sure, but in this case, the general public gets the same gun, same design and same specs as the police and military.

For instance, according to the information supplied by CZ, the gun had to withstand 4,000 dry-firings, 3,000 de-cockings, operator-level disassembly and re-assembly 1,350 times, complete disassembly (all the way down to pins and springs) 150 times, 100-percent parts interchangeability, a 1.5 meter drop test (54 times) on concrete, three meter drop test, firing after being frozen at -36 F for 24 hours, firing after being submerged in mud, sand and combinations--and after having been stripped of all oil. The service life must exceed 15,000 rounds of +P 9mm ammo and indeed, testing revealed the P-01 has exceeded 30,000 rounds with ball 9mm.

The reliability requirement protocol was particularly astounding. Set at 98.8 percent (.2 percent) failure rate, this was tough-enough for any gun. This equals 20 stoppages per 10,000 rounds, or 500 "mean rounds between failures" (MRBF). During testing, the average number of stoppages was only seven per 15,000 rounds, or .05 percent failure rate. This translates to a MRBF rate of 2,142 rounds. That happens to be about five times the minimum acceptable rate for the U.S. Army, which is set at 495 rounds for 9mm pistols with 115 gr. ball ammo.

Charles Martel
March 4, 2007, 01:44 PM
how dare you!

Well, excuuuuuuze me! Sorry, but too many have reported on the 92FS's reliability for me to be impressed by your unsubstantiated assertions.

Leedavisone
March 4, 2007, 06:02 PM
I have to admit, I have never had a jam. Except on a new Glock. But that was fixed by a gunsmith. 1911's (3 brands) all work as expected... never a problem in a mess of rounds. Trying to persuade everyone out there that your favorite pistol is the best ever is a hopeless, and silly task. There are dozens and dozens of modern pistols that are fairly evenly matched... Just because your Sig is perfect does not mean that the next guy's CZ is not. It would be interesting to see some hard data on all the pistols being compared in a torture test... but until we have that, it is pointless to continue this... But I shall add my 2 cents to keep the thread alive and raise the blood of the Glock owners... the 1911 is the absolute... well, better not stir the hornets too much.


Fortunately, I always keep my feathers numbered... -Foghorn Leghorn

twinhairdryers
March 4, 2007, 07:51 PM
GLOCK

jamz
March 4, 2007, 08:33 PM
It really depends on the circumstance.

If someone told me that I wsa going to be involved in a gunfight in five minutes, and my tool was any NIB autoloader, I would certainly pick a Glock based on their simplicity... Fewer parts, fewer parts for the manufacturer to screw up on.

If I had a choice between a glock, and, say, one of Tuner1911's guns, I'd take one of his, hands down.

cajun47
March 4, 2007, 10:37 PM
best thing to do is have 2 handguns with you.

jeff-10
March 4, 2007, 11:13 PM
SIG P220-229

jeffkirchner
March 5, 2007, 03:40 AM
GLOCK

No_Brakes23
March 5, 2007, 06:19 AM
I got a Glock to jam on the first box of ammo I fed it. It locked up so bad I could not cycle it or fire it. Took a gunsmith to clear it.

Add in the limp-wrist/reloads kB issue, and there is no way I could consider it. Gaston's got a pretty loose view of perfection.

I'd love to say 1911, but I bet that a SIG or CZ75/BHP might be a better choice.

It's all realative to the paticular handgun you are using, the maintenance and the ammo.

And for all the bad press the M9/model 92 gets, I never had any trouble with it.

aguyindallas
March 5, 2007, 10:23 AM
Glock all the way.

Flopsy
March 5, 2007, 03:55 PM
cant believe anyone would have the nads to sugest a 92f. our soldiers in iraq put the damn things in ziplocks bags and so they wont jam. that doesnt sound very reliable to me.

No they don't.

USMC Tanker
March 5, 2007, 05:34 PM
Jakk,

I'm not sure of your experience or background, but I carried the same beat-up, issued M9 through tons of rough training, rough terrain, and 7 months in Fallujah. Not one problem to speak of with the Beretta M9. Rain, mud, salt water, sand, dust, dirt, you name it.

I will NOT however, give my signature of approval to the NATO 9mm ball ammunition.

The 1911 is my favorite of pistols, but I will have complete faith in my M9 the next time I deploy.

I also believe that your story of U.S. troops carrying their M9s in ziploc bags is unsupported at best. There are plenty of OIF/OEF vets on this forum to inform you correctly.

4fingermick
March 5, 2007, 06:48 PM
Bog standard, straight out of the box? Glock, H&K, Sig.

Modified and tuned? All of a sudden the old 1911 stands a chance.

As far as the cheapness of the Glock and the ultra reliability that comes with them, they have to be given extra points.

Want it to work under any conditions and not break the bank? No brainer, Glock!

I currently shoot a 38 Super Auto Colt Ser80 Govt and a Beretta 92FS.

Chem Geek
March 5, 2007, 06:50 PM
I personally like Sig the best, but that's cause I own one. :neener:

Seriously though, there are several (Sig, HK, Glock, XD, Beretta, etc) that are very reliable out of the box, HOWEVER if you don't handle it right, anything can happen. I have personally experienced a Glock limp wrist FTF, my buddy managed it 3 times during one magazine of a Glock and then again with an XD. It's not cause they're unreliable, he just has weak wrists and doesn't shoot a lot. Seen lots of 1911's with feeding problems, I think there's some that are very reliable, and others that fall short.

My personal favorites are the Sig and 1911, but I have a real hard time calling a box sotck 1911 ultra reliable.

MythBuster
March 5, 2007, 07:27 PM
"I'll go with the pistol that was tested in the Philippines in 1913, in Vera Cruz in 1914, in Haiti in 1915, in northern Mexico in 1916, in the trenches of France in 1917 and '18, in Archangel and along the Trans-Siberian Railway in '19, in the jungles of Central America during the '20s and '30s, carried through the surf at Guadalcanal, Omaha Beach and Iwo Jima, made the march out from the Chosen Reservoir in 1950, soldiered through the triple-canopy jungle of Viet Nam, and was carried by many units in Desert Storm."

Using your logic there is only ONE type of handgun to carry. That would be a flintlock.

They served the armies of the entire world for over 200 years before they were replaced by the caplock.

But since I don't like to trust my modern life with antique designs I do not carry a 1911 everyday.

kokapelli
March 5, 2007, 07:45 PM
.

I could not have said it better
:)

MythBuster
March 5, 2007, 08:26 PM
It is a MYTH that the 1911 served without problems during all those years and in all those places.

There are US troops in foreign graves because their 1911 failed to work.

The 1911 may have been the best handgun design many years ago but one would have to be living in a fantasy world to believe there has not been improvements in handgun design since 1911.

hagar
March 5, 2007, 08:52 PM
In order of my preference and experience. I left out H&K, XD, Kahr and others I have no experience with.

Sig
Glock
Star Firestar
CZ75
Browning BHP
Sigma
Walther
Ruger
Amt automag
Jennings
Lorkin
Tec9
..
..
..
1911

doubleg
March 5, 2007, 08:57 PM
How many are in graves because their underpowered round failed to kill a insurgent? Your plastic wonder guns are BASED on the 1911. Also the only thing any modern pistols have over the 1911 is heavier trigger pulls and larger capacity.

kokapelli
March 5, 2007, 08:57 PM
Hmmmm! That should get some responses:uhoh:

MythBuster
March 5, 2007, 10:34 PM
I see we have another MYTH. The myth that the .45acp round never fails to stop the bad guy.

In reality in the mud and dirt of a battlefield the 1911 can and will malfunction and unless the .45acp round hits the CNS the enemy will not be stoped.

MythBuster
March 5, 2007, 10:37 PM
"Also the only thing any modern pistols have over the 1911 is heavier trigger pulls and larger capacity."

Some modern handguns have a very important advantage over the 1911. Better reliability in bad conditions.

No_Brakes23
March 6, 2007, 05:44 AM
I love the 1911, it is the only large frame auto I own. But it's nuts to think better pistols aren't out there. In 96 years, there have been improvements, (Can anyone say 1911A1?)

My 1911 is a series 70 with mods that were in keeping with the time that it was 'smithed, (1978). But it still lacks features found on many weapons available today. (The Novaks on my wife's SIG P232 are much easier to use than the Bo-Mar blade on my govt model, and the lack of a beavertail means, my fat paws get bit every so often.)

I would not hesitate to buy another 1911, but for pure cost effectiveness, there are better options, (SIG P226 or CZ75 immediately come to mind.) And the really effective, useful 1911s cost about 4 figures, whereas you can get really decent large frame auto of another design for $500 or less brand new. I am truly touched that the 1911 has such a loyal following, but its not the penultimate pistol at all. Impressive? Absolutely. Ultimate? No.

JonB
March 6, 2007, 09:27 AM
Seems to be the answer. Everybody claims what they have is the best. Typical for an internet forum :)

Todesengel
March 6, 2007, 09:46 AM
HK; reliable & accurate - No Compromise.

waynedm
March 6, 2007, 09:54 AM
I see we have another MYTH. The myth that the .45acp round never fails to stop the bad guy.

In reality in the mud and dirt of a battlefield the 1911 can and will malfunction and unless the .45acp round hits the CNS the enemy will not be stoped.

Oh no! Why you gotta go stating facts like that? The guys that have seen too many movies and read too many doctored, biased books about one shot stopping power will get mad!

Just give me a Ruger. The things work no matter what you do to them.

P97
March 6, 2007, 10:48 AM
Rugers have always worked for me. They are (Rock Solid) for anything I need them for :D

doubleg
March 6, 2007, 11:56 AM
I responded to a myth with a myth. Find 1 single peice of evidence to support your claim of the 1911s unreliability in war.

waynedm
March 6, 2007, 12:31 PM
The 1911 has full-length guide rails. Get that full of sand and watch what happens versus a gun that doesn't have them full-length.

Todesengel
March 6, 2007, 12:36 PM
not all of them do, if they do tho they are easy replaced with short ones.

waynedm
March 6, 2007, 12:54 PM
not all of them do, if they do tho they are easy replaced with short ones.

Uh, do you know what guide rails are?

Todesengel
March 6, 2007, 04:23 PM
Uh, do you know what guide rails are?

You didn't mean recoil spring guide rods? my bad then...:uhoh:

MythBuster
March 6, 2007, 04:33 PM
"Find 1 single peice of evidence to support your claim of the 1911s unreliability in war."

I have found plenty of evidence. So could you IF you would bother to do a little research.

You are not going to bother because you have already made up your mind.

I am a big fan of WW-II weapons. The M1 Garand is by far my favorite rifle. I own several of them. I would rather shoot my Garands than anything I own.

Like the 1911 the Garand was the best in the world in it's day.

Those days are over. We may not like it or some may not believe it but so be it. the truth is the truth and we may as well learn to accept it.

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