Scholl & co pistol


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quiettype
January 12, 2007, 03:07 PM
Just found an old .22 semi pistol frame and slide with a 6 in barrel.The only visible marking is Scholl & Co, New Haven Conn .It appears similar to a hi standard or woodsman.Any idea when it was made?

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Ron James
January 12, 2007, 04:50 PM
Could that in reality be " Schall & Co. " Google Fiala Pistols. Fiala Arms and Equipment Company, New Haven produced these pistols from the 1920 until bankruptcy in the 1922, Fiala Arms Company bought up the remaining guns, parts and inventory and assembled them until 1930. Schall & Co.was the actual manufacture and after the second Fiala went belly up they provided parts, repair service and also manufactured the gun under their own name until 1935. It may look like a automatic pistol, but it is manually operated and must be hand cycled after every shot. A very interesting piece of American firearm history and design.

John Stimson, Jr.
January 13, 2007, 09:38 AM
I agree thet the pistol is probably a J. C. Schall & Co. pistol.

Schall began advertising in mid 1939 and the latest ad I have found id from 1935.

The second company was Anthony Fiala's Fiala Outfits, Inc of New York City. This company may have existed befoore teh Fiala Arms and Eauipment Co. failed. This company did continue beyond the time when Schall appears to have taken over sales of the pistols.

I have started a survivors fils of the Fiala, Columbia. Botwinick Bros and Schall family of pistols. If you can find teh serial number I would like to add it the the database.

If you need help with how to remove the slide let me know.

quiettype
January 14, 2007, 06:45 AM
I've not found a serial # yet.It has the 7.5" barrel.Finish was either nickel or chrome.Several parts missing.Safety,trigger,sear,transfer bar,spring loaded parts at rear of frame etc..How similar is this to the early model hi standards or woodsmans.Please point me in the right direction to get this functioning.Thanks!

John Stimson, Jr.
January 14, 2007, 11:00 AM
There are no common parts between the Schall and either the Woodsman or the High Standards.

The serial number for teh earlier guns marked Fiala, Columbia and Botwinich were on teh foront grip strap and on teh laterr Schall versions it was on the top of the frame at the rear hidden by the slide. THe slide must be completely removed to see where they marked teh serial number.

The pistol you have was first manufactued by Fiala Arms and Equipment Co and a few are marked Columbia and Botwinich Bros.. The Schall marked guns were the last of the line. and that was over 70 years ago.

Finding parts will be tough since at most I expect there were only about 8000 manufactured including all names.

Jim K
January 14, 2007, 02:35 PM
Nice call, Ron and John. I had forgotten all about Schall, and the mis-spelling led me off on the wrong track.

Jim

John Stimson, Jr.
January 15, 2007, 07:19 AM
There is some data and memorabilia on Schall on my website at:

http://www.histandard.info/Fiala/

45Broomhandle
February 1, 2007, 03:58 PM
A few weeks ago I received a PM from quiettype enquiring about parts for this Schall. He then told me he'd rather not get involved in it's restoration and offered the parts to me at a certain price. I agreed to his price and now have the gun - at least most of it - in my possession.

As he explained earlier in this thread there are a LOT of missing parts. Below is a pic of the Schall laying next to my Fiala #1395 (the one with the Fiala names stippled by a steel punch to be unrecognizable). Note the fatter and shorter barrel. By the way, the bore on this barrel is VERY NICE. Though the exterior is horrendouse, I believe this gun can be resurrected into a decent representative of the Schall period of Fiala's history.

Where one normally finds MODEL 1920 stamped beneath the Barrel Release Bolt on the right side of the gun, this gun instead has the barrel PINNED in the frame. Where the model stamping would be, instead is stamped SCHALL & CO. (then in smaller type size) NEW HAVEN, CONN. USA. Not sure if there is a period after each letter in USA or not.

As near as I can make out, the serial number stamped on the front portion of the grip strap is 7364. We may learn more when it has had the crud carefully removed from this area. I can detect no other markings anywhere.

As quiettype said above, it appears to have been nickeled or chromed at some time. I'm not sure how I'll have it finished once it is restored. Time will tell. Hopefully, I can come back and find this thread to post an "After" picture of the gun once it's restored.

Anyway, below are pics of BOTH sides. Best regards, ---45Broomhandle

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6500/schallpistolwithfialalejz3.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7809/schallpistolwithfialarijy2.jpg

Helsasser
December 11, 2008, 10:12 PM
Hello,
Found this forum looking for info on the schall pistol. I have one that my uncle modified by removing the barrel and cutting down a marlin rifle barrel to make a 10 " barrel. The pistol is complete and functions I would like to restore it but finding a barrel is going to be impossiable. So I'm hoping 45Broomhandle could forward the barrel diminisons so I could make one.

45Broomhandle
December 11, 2008, 10:41 PM
Hi Hellsasser,

Finding an original Schall barrel would be near impossible. Over the years I've managed to acquire only that beat-up one pictured above, and an unmarked Schall in MUCH better condition.

One of the hallmarks of the Schalls is their 6 1/2" barrel, rather than 7 1/2" like the Fialas were given. I just heard of an original Fiala barrel which was being offered at a gun show. Asking price was over $200!!!

I can furnish you micrometer dimensions from my guns and a lot of details on their front sight, which IS different from that normally found on the Fialas.

You should visit the website John noted above. He has a LOT more info on these guns than I do. He's been at it many more years than I have. I first heard of them and started collecting them just in 2005. John's probably been at it for a couple of decades or more. He has an online gun forum for the discussion ONLY of High Standard, Hartford Arms Co. and Fiala Arms Co. guns.

I'm very busy tonight but will try to remember tomorrow to get that info off to you.

Best regards ~ ~ ~ 45Broomhandle

Helsasser
December 11, 2008, 10:59 PM
Thanks I appreciate your time. I added some pics Hope I did it right.After removing the rust,there was no sign of it ever being blued.Even under the grips and inside of the frame. You can also see the slide release and safty have been replaced and repaired. I also think that they used the original Schall front sight when they replaced the barrell. The brass fowller in the clip binds it has plenty of slop. But like I said it still shoots.

Helsasser
December 13, 2008, 12:58 PM
One last pic, If anyone has these two parts laying around I would be interested.

Helsasser
April 4, 2010, 10:45 PM
I was at my middle brothers shop last week and as I was leaving I noticed a little gear in a tub of scrap metal. I picked it up trying to figure out what is was but gave up after a miniut.Putting it back I noticed a round shaft sticking out then I noticed it was turned down on the end sticking out. Then I saw a little notch across the turned down part and I said it can't be. I pulled it out and sure enough it was the barrel for my Schall. I asked my brother where he got it from and he said he must have got it in a box of junk from our oldest brother (deceased). Call it the luck of the dumb it sure made my day. It still had the front sight with it. I did'nt relize that it had a tiny gold bead in it. Now all I need is to find a slide release lever and a safty lever as they were replaced or repaired.

45Broomhandle
April 4, 2010, 11:11 PM
Helsasser, when you found that Schall barrel, I assume you immediately ran out and bought some lottery tickets???

Wow! What kinda' luck IS that? Phenomenal!!!

Here's some more good luck for you. The PA 'smith who works on my Fialas bought one of mine so he could use its parts as patterns to make parts for others. He's a real artist when it comes to metal work. He's a retired dentist who spent a small fortune fully equipping a shop in his home to work on older guns after retirement. He's having a ball...

I just dropped him a note about a Fiala he's gonna' work on for me, so I'll now ask him how much for a slide release lever and safety lever. Will get back to you when I hear from him.

Email me a PM so I've got your email address. It's much faster and easier to use than these forum message systems. I just obtained a cased set Columbia Arms Corporation so will have to do a separate posting about it. This is only SIXTH Columbia gun reported.

QUESTION: You photos show the serial number 7279 on the grip strap. Is there a serial number (matching hopefully) stamped on the bottom of the slide. Just let the slide back, turn gun upside down, and look at bottom of slide for it. Lemme' know what you find, if anything. A lot of them were NOT stamped. Also, it'd be interesting to know what - if any - serial number is stamped on the end of that barrel you found.

Best regards ~ ~ ~ 45Broomhandle

Helsasser
April 6, 2010, 09:21 PM
No I did'nt. To excited about finding the barrel that I did'nt think about it.
After 45 -50 years whoda thought. Thanks for the offer PM on the way.

Woodsman88
February 5, 2012, 02:03 PM
Any chance you guys are still members of this forum and would like to help me out with a Scholl & Co pistol that I have?

Pappy Rambo
February 10, 2012, 04:36 PM
Hi, I am looking for some parts for my shall. Does anyone have parts or ideas where to look.

45Broomhandle
February 10, 2012, 05:27 PM
Pappy Rambo, I sold a gent in PA an all original Fiala so he could use its parts as patterns to repair my various Fialas, which includes Schall and Columbia marked guns. They're all Fialas, some have MINOR differences. He can work on any of them.

He does a great job on restoring these guns and doesn't charge an arm and a leg. Email me a PM for his contact info. And, Please share with me some data regarding your gun so I can include it in my study of the surviving guns from this old company. There are are no KNOWN factory records surviving so I have to study the survivors in order to learn more about them.

Best regards ~ ~ ~ 45Broomhandle

Woodsman88
February 13, 2012, 01:12 PM
Here is my Scholl pistol. The only missing piece is the magazine...other than that she is fully functional. Any information would be greatly appreciated! THANKS

Pappy Rambo
February 23, 2012, 06:51 AM
I am thinking of trading or selling my shall pistol and ideas of the value?

45Broomhandle
February 23, 2012, 10:20 AM
BOTH Woodsman88, and Pappy Rambo, first you gotta' remember I'm ONLY a collector with some limited knowledge of the FIALA family of guns, which includes the SCHALL and COLUMBIA marked guns.

First, if you're missing the original magazine, you're missing a VERY important part of the gun's originality. If you're selling such a gun you've already knocked off about $100 or more of its value. If you just want to fire your gun (NOT recommended with its OLD 1920s steel) SOME owners have reported good results with Colt Woodsman mags.

I have no experience re mags because ALL of mine were obtained WITH original mags. Plus, I DO NOT fire my collectibles. I see no reason to possibly destroy an historical and valuable artifact.

The photos furnished only give me a hint that it's POSSIBLY a Schall, based on what little I can learn from such pics. I need DETAILED close-ups of what markings are on a gun, and where? What is the gun's serial number, and WHERE is it stamped? Is the SAME number on the gun also stamped on the bottom of the slide, and on the breech end of the barrel?

If the gun is stamped SCHALL & CO., it probably has its serial number stamped on top back end of the frame, out of sight. To find it you must remove the slide, and that can be tricky if you don't know how it works.

Is the barrel pinned into the frame, or does the gun have a Take Down Bolt on the right side? What kind of buttstock attachment is milled into the backstrap? Lots of questions...

As for valuing each individual gun there is NO simple answer. For the average owner, regardless WHAT gun you're look for a value on, you gotta' do your home work. Check gun value guide books which in some cases even tell you what to look for. Check current prices (if any available) other owners are offering their guns for on the auction websites.

Some larger gun dealers may have a gun like yours listed for sale on their website. Check ALL of those dealers' sites. Put the name SCHALL in a google search and see if it brings up more info for you. REMEMBER you must spell it properly, S-C-H-A-L-L, for the search engine to do its job properly. Nothing else will work!!!

When I sell my guns at an online gun auction I start the bidding at the LEAST I will take for it, THOROUGHLY DESCRIBE it in EVERY DETAIL (both with photos and words), and then set back and let the market determine how much it is worth.

If I had good photos of your guns with some details, I could be more help. Good luck.

Best regards ~ ~ ~ 45Broomhandle

bill elliott
June 3, 2012, 10:13 PM
Pappy Rambo, I sold a gent in PA an all original Fiala so he could use its parts as patterns to repair my various Fialas, which includes Schall and Columbia marked guns. They're all Fialas, some have MINOR differences. He can work on any of them.

He does a great job on restoring these guns and doesn't charge an arm and a leg. Email me a PM for his contact info. And, Please share with me some data regarding your gun so I can include it in my study of the surviving guns from this old company. There are are no KNOWN factory records surviving so I have to study the survivors in order to learn more about them.

Best regards ~ ~ ~ 45Broomhandle
how do I find this "Gent" I just found a
Fiala with all 3 barrels and the stock, but a the extractor is missing, and I have not shot it yet.

45Broomhandle
June 4, 2012, 01:25 AM
Pappy Rambo I've emailed you the info you requested. Watch for it. Also, with no magazine you've already created a problem without offering prospective buyers SOME kind of working mag.

There is one fairly inexpensive mag you could TRY out in your Schall. It can be found at the following URL: http://www.ammoclip.com/C/colt_pre-war_22.htm

NOTE: I have NOT had occasion to need a mag to try in one of my guns, can only tell you IT LOOKS LIKE a Fiala - judging from the photo they show of it.

I would need a LOT more info about your gun in order to appraise what you might expect to get for it at auction. I have a prepared questionnaire to email to owners.

Woodsman88, just send me a PM email here at THR and I can send you the questionnaire I mentioned.

Best regards ~ ~ ~ 45Broomhandle

45Broomhandle
June 4, 2012, 01:30 AM
bill elliott, sorry I missed your posting about the Fiala mechanic. Just send me a PM EMAIL on the THR system here and I'll get the info back to you a.s.a.p.

Best regards ~ ~ ~ 45Broomhandle

bill elliott
June 4, 2012, 10:35 PM
A few weeks ago I received a PM from quiettype enquiring about parts for this Schall. He then told me he'd rather not get involved in it's restoration and offered the parts to me at a certain price. I agreed to his price and now have the gun - at least most of it - in my possession.

As he explained earlier in this thread there are a LOT of missing parts. Below is a pic of the Schall laying next to my Fiala #1395 (the one with the Fiala names stippled by a steel punch to be unrecognizable). Note the fatter and shorter barrel. By the way, the bore on this barrel is VERY NICE. Though the exterior is horrendouse, I believe this gun can be resurrected into a decent representative of the Schall period of Fiala's history.

Where one normally finds MODEL 1920 stamped beneath the Barrel Release Bolt on the right side of the gun, this gun instead has the barrel PINNED in the frame. Where the model stamping would be, instead is stamped SCHALL & CO. (then in smaller type size) NEW HAVEN, CONN. USA. Not sure if there is a period after each letter in USA or not.

As near as I can make out, the serial number stamped on the front portion of the grip strap is 7364. We may learn more when it has had the crud carefully removed from this area. I can detect no other markings anywhere.

As quiettype said above, it appears to have been nickeled or chromed at some time. I'm not sure how I'll have it finished once it is restored. Time will tell. Hopefully, I can come back and find this thread to post an "After" picture of the gun once it's restored.

Anyway, below are pics of BOTH sides. Best regards, ---45Broomhandle

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6500/schallpistolwithfialalejz3.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7809/schallpistolwithfialarijy2.jpg
I also have an old Fiala, and need some parts and advise. I heard you were the expert. I also need something for an old Reising, might you be able to help on that too?

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