[Tropical Z]

The recent Glock kaboom thread really disturbed me.I always ASSUMED that the kaboom candidates were the .40S&W's-period.Now every time i shoot my 21 somewhere in the back of my mind ill always be wondering if this is gonna be the round!
I wish id NEVER seen that thread or link!:banghead:

[Handy]

While it has happened with every non-9mm model, I would think the low operating pressure of .45 would give a great deal of margin over the .40. The 21 was built on the 20 platform, and is at least configured for a large, high pressure cartridge. The same can't be said for the 9mm platforms that Glock pushed .40 into.

[gudel]

i'm considering glock 21.

i want to know if your glock 21 has went KB on you.
i don't want to see "i heard" story, i want pictures, personal experience.

[TaxPhd]

Handy,

It has also happened with 9mm. A search of TFL archives on my user name will show my experience with a G19.

[hollowpointt]

G21,26,17,23 Never as much as a failure to fire.

[WonderNine]

I heard when you look up kaboom in the dictionary there's a picture of a Glock right next to a Colt peacemaker :D

[Pocket Pistol]

This is a first for me.
I have heard very little bad about a GLock.
I used to have a 27, sold it because it was to thick to carry and now carry an MK9 in search of a PM9.

[BigG]

MOST of the ones I have looked into involved LEAD bullets and ALL of the ones I looked into involved RELOADED AMMUNITION.

A double charge of bullseye or other fast burning pistol powder will disassemble most any pistol.

Both are specific no-nos according to the instructions delivered with each new pistol. :uhoh:

The trouble I have with threads of this nature is that the guy never takes responsibility for reloading his ammo. He blames the gun. Kinda like blaming the gun for killing people. You know like the media does.

[railroader]

Both the 40 and the 9mm are alot higher pressure round than the 45. I have reloaded my 45 brass a bunch of times but then I don't have a glock either. Mark

[Mike Irwin]

Every Glock ever made will KB, with our without a round in the chamber, whether it's in your hand or not.

Those wascally plastic guns have a mind of their own, you know...

And it's controlled by Satan...

[9x19]

I have or have had, models:

17, 19, 20, 21, 26, 27, 29, 33, 30, 34 and 36.

I've never experienced un-reloadable brass, nor any kabooms wheter using factory ammo, or my own reloads.

FWIW

[Handy]

TaxPhd,

It seems that you have directed me to that story 4 times in the past. So I reread it.

Without starting a semantics argument, you state that it must have been "bad brass", since it was of unknown origin and the weapon was fully in battery.

The case on any weapon can fail. Bolt action rifles have gas ports built in against this possibility.



The KaBoom term gets alot of use, but the definition should be narrower than it usually is. I have always understood it too mean a rather forcefull case head failure with no obvious cause.

Barrel leading is an obvious cause. So is weakened, oft reloaded brass, or double charges.

The reason KaBoom has its own term is because it has happened with fresh factory ammo and the caliber and models more affected are NOT in a random distribution.

There are probably alot of Kabooms reported that really shouldn't be counted (if there was a count), but it's hard to seperate truly bad ammo from factory spec loads.

Someone posted an LEO message from last weak where three G22s in one dept., all firing factory 155 gr. ammo, KaBoomed. No lead, no reloads, no 180gr. ammo. No obvious cause. That's compelling.

[10-Ring]

My 21c blew up in my hands a few years ago. Since then, I haven't felt that comfy w/ any Glock. Probably tho, if you stick w/ good factory ammo, from a good factory ;) , you should be fine ;)

[Baba Louie]

The retired marine, SWAT team, Glock armorer gentleman who taught the CCW class I took years ago told us then (95) that the 21's barrels as they came from the factory did not fully support the round and he wouldn't have one unless they had a Bar-Sto barrel installed. FWIW. But he did swear by all other things Glock.

I've never really worried about the 30 or 21 as they came from the factory, but I did have a Bar-Sto installed in the 21, just cause.

I tend to prefer the 19, 17 or 26 in 9mm for plinking purposes.

Still awaiting my first KB in any of them.

Ho-Hum.

Adios

[denfoote]

Ahhhhh Tropical, You had better go back to your (chuckle chuckle) Hi-Point!!! :D

[WonderNine]

I've never heard of a Hi-Point blowing up.

[arinvolvo]

Come to think of it WonderBread, neither have I....But then again, Glocks are the only Kb stories I have heard...but I havent heard all that many.

[jc2]

MOST of the ones I have looked into involved LEAD bullets and ALL of the ones I looked into involved RELOADED AMMUNITION.
Probably two of the most oft-repeated Glock myths. There have been numerous well-documented G22/23 kabooms with factory ammo over the years--from the very beginning continuing through the present. There are usually several officer safety alerts a over the NLETS (National Law Enforcement Telecommunication System)--the most current from agency an in Tennessee that had three Glocks kaboom with FACTORY ammo sending one LEO to the hospital.

As to the lead bullets, if it is indeed the problem that the internet myth would have it to be, the Glock is very negligent--they absolutely fail to mention the use of lead bullets in the manual included with each and every Glock sold--no warnings, no precautions, no nothing. Evidently, Glock, Inc. does not see the problem with lead bullets the internet does!

The problem is with the Glock 22/23. The design of the disconnector on the Glocks allow them to fire with the slide slightly out of battery--this is a more significant problem with higher pressure cartridges. Other .40 S&W pistols, especially ones made of steel or designed from the ground up as .40's rather than merely being modified 9 mm's, do not suffer from this same problem.

The original poster is right in being concerned/aware of the potential of a kaboom with any Glock other than a 9x19. Probably the best thing anybody can do for a G22/23 who really wants to stick with that platform is to invest in a good quality after-market barrel (there are a whole lot available at a reasonable--in and of itself an indirect comment on the scope of the problem) and heavier recoil spring.

[denfoote]

I've never heard of a Hi-Point blowing up.

Neither have I, but I know of one that suffered a "KERPLOP"!!! Into a four foot hole, that is!!! ;)

I never got enough rounds out of it to make it KABOOM!!!! :barf:

[Tamara]

Someone posted an LEO message from last weak where three G22s in one dept., all firing factory 155 gr. ammo, KaBoomed. No lead, no reloads, no 180gr. ammo. No obvious cause. That's compelling.

Out of curiousity, do you know what kind of ammo it was?

Our local police distributor had a visit from an, um, federal employee last year to pick up a couple of cases of Golden Sabers. Apparently they'd had three incidents with Speers blowing up SIGs. (I'm assuming that these were case failures and not kB's.)

[marklbucla]

Where is the original link everyone keep referring to? Thanks!

[gudel]

marklbucla, just look in google, key glock kb. i think you'll find some articles and pictures.

i believe this is glock 21
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=303299

[Handy]

Tamara,

I think Federal. It was in a long thread a weak or two ago.

[jc2]

Tamara -

Federal 155-grain Hi-Shok JHP

Not reloaded

Not lead

Not cheap practice ammo--it could easily get an LEO killed on the street

[fastbolt]

Neither have I, but I know of one that suffered a "KERPLOP"!!! Into a four foot hole, that is!!!

:D :D :D That was worth a chuckle ...

The GT link: http://glocktalk.gunserver.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157649&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

Links to recent threads relating to similar discussions, in case some folks here missed them on other forums ...

http://glocktalk.gunserver.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=152848&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000140-2.html

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000252.html

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000220-2.html

http://glocktalk.gunserver.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157774

[Greybeard]

Quote: "But then again, Glocks are the only Kb stories I have heard...but I havent heard all that many."

If more time, I could tell a couple of Kb stories of incidents in the past few years around our little range. Not with Glocks, but HKs, one fairly new, one rather old. Bottom line with both though: RELOADED ammo.

First one was with a super-competitive cop's personally-loaded "hot" stuff (.40 or .45?) while in the hand of a "friend". Second was a CHL student who had paid a local gun store $7 a box for 9mm reloads to go in his $1,200 gun ... :rolleyes:

[Tamara]

Tamara -

Federal 155-grain Hi-Shok JHP

Not reloaded

Not lead

Not cheap practice ammo--

I'm pretty sure that I didn't imply that it was any of that. All I asked Handy is "What brand?", since I am aware of some detonations of .40 cal Speer factory JHP's in the region.

Funny, but the notice re: Speer .40 came from one of the major outside sales reps of what may be the biggest LE distributor in the SE. Obviously, I've sold all my SIGs and stopped using Speer ammunition since.

(Or maybe I just held off until I found out a lot number. Whichever.)

[Handy]

Tamara,

Blaming the ammo always makes more sense when there is no historical reason to think the gun was to blame.


I don't think a Sig product has been responsible for coining any new terms for a failure.

[Tamara]

Blaming the ammo always makes more sense when there is no historical reason to think the gun was to blame.

Seeing as how it's the ammo that actually contains the explosives, that would seem to be Occam's Razor to me.

I'm looking, for example, at that G21 picture on the preceding page.

Experience tells me that that round would have been un-fun to fire in any .45 ACP semi-auto pistol. At best, you would have wound up with the contents of the magazine all over the range floor. With the violence it seemed to let go with, I think you'd have been picking splinters of 1911 (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69601&highlight=kaboom) or SIG P220 grips out of your hand.

Maybe there's a magical force field in a Glock chamber that lends extra power to the powder charge, but I doubt it.

[Handy]

Ah, from your rhetoric, it would be safe to assume you're firmly in the "no such thing as a special glock problem/KaBooms don't exist" camp.

Okay.

[Sarge]

has anybody else noticed that it seems impossible to have an objective discussion on Glock blowups? I wouldn't even post to these things but unfortunately, I know first-hand of some of these incidents that absolutely did NOT involve reloads, or poorly-maintained weapons. I also know of a ton more of these occurrences second hand, courtesy of the NCIC/NLETS network.

Trust me, folks- these folks have got better things to do than sit around the donut shop and make up stories about Glocks exploding. This is an officer safety issue. The issuing agency's credibility demands that they get the facts straight. There's no such thing as an unconfirmed source for one of these messages. They come from law enforcement agencies, only. Joe Revoked can't jump on NCIC and post a 'puter message that goes out to 'all agencies', because he's mad at Glock.

If this wasn't really, REALLY happening, the TTY's wouldn't be going out over the system. They have been going out over that system for years.

But there I go again- clouding the issue with logic.

[Tamara]

Ah, from your rhetoric, it would be safe to assume you're firmly in the "no such thing as a special glock problem/KaBooms don't exist" camp.

You know what they say about "assuming".

Do I think it's the fault of the ammunition? Heck yes, I do: no gun has ever "kaboomed" while dry-firing.

Do I think that the same defective round may have generated a less spectacular event in another gun? Depends on the caliber and the round: for instance, I think that a round which may peel off a Glock 22 chamber hood may only blow a SIG P-229's mag onto the floor. In the case of the G21 on the previous page, the fact that the slide/barrel assembly is intact while the frame is shattered seems to indicate that the case suffered a failure, and a violent one at that, at the 6 o'clock position. Given that a SAAMI-spec .45 ACP load operates at somewhat less pressure than your average child's party balloon, one would deduce that that particular round was at something greater than SAAMI specs. Therefore it is reasonable to speculate that situations like that are why some 1911 grip makers add metal backing plates to their wooden or rubber grips.

You go on assuming, though...

[fastbolt]

But there I go again- clouding the issue with logic.

ain't it the truth? ... ;)

I shot my first SA pistol when I was about 4-5 years old, a Llama .380, if I remember correctly ... might've been a .32, if they made such a thing ... and started shooting other larger pistols & revolvers as I was able to hold them up. I've held a 1911 that experienced a ruptured chamber, although the only outward symptom was the pistol's slide failing to cycle properly.

I know folks have destroyed metal framed handguns with improperly reloaded ammunition ... and damaged or otherwise faulty factory ammunition ... but it's been a rare thing to be present when it's occurred, or handle one right after it happened. Seemingly occuring seldom enough that it's been a noteworthy event ... Mostly the pistol or revolver wasn't damaged, at least not catastrophically.

And that's been over the last 45+ years since I actually started shooting ...

I've personally held 2 polymer framed pistols ... a 9mm & a .45 ACP ... that experienced catastrophic failures ... in less than 2 years ... and have a family member that experienced a catastrophic failure with a G22.

More polymer framed pistols on the market ... more reported failures ...

The question is, are some makes & models of these polymer framed pistols apparently more likely ... based upon frequent user reports, and for whatever reasons ... to experience such a failure, or not?

It's starting to seem as if it's becoming a bit harder to find an L/E armorer that DOESN'T know of such a failure in some polymer framed pistols, than say, 10 years ago ...

If this wasn't really, REALLY happening, the TTY's wouldn't be going out over the system. They have been going out over that system for years.

uh, huh ...

[Preacherman]

I've had a Glock kB! in the firing lane next to me - a G22 firing American Eagle FMJ. Ghastly ammo. in its early incarnations, as any search about it will reveal... On the other hand, I'm up to ten Glocks of my own now, in four calibers, and have never had any problems with them that were not ammo-related (in something over 30,000 rounds through Glocks, two failures - one dud primer and one case with no hole drilled between primer pocket and powder).

I am employed by a Federal LE agency, and last year I called Glock to ask them about the whole kB! story (yes, I've seen all the reports too, and since I bet my life on a Glock almost every day, I was concerned). I got to speak to the manager of the gunsmithing/warranty repair department. He was very open and forthcoming about the problems. To summarize what he said:

1. Yes, Glocks do have less supported chambers than some other weapons, but not so far as to be out-of-spec. for the caliber/cartridge concerned. This is one of the reasons why Glocks are so darn reliable: if tolerances are too tight, chambering problems can ensue.

2. As with any firearm, it's very important to keep the chamber and barrel CLEAN. With polygonal rifling, this is particularly important, as any buildup of debris ahead of the chamber can drastically increase pressures, particularly with rounds such as the .40 S&W and 357 SIG.

3. Glock specifically recommends the use of JACKETED ammunition only. The manager stated baldly that given a clean weapon, he has never heard of a kB! with jacketed ammo. However, some ammo. (particularly cheaper FMJ) is plated, rather than jacketed (i.e. there is a thin copper "wash" applied to a lead bullet, so that it looks jacketed, but isn't). This stuff can "lead up" a barrel just like ordinary lead bullets do - and that's a no-no in polygonal rifling. He also stated that in the cases of kB!'s with jacketed ammo, he had always found that the chamber and/or barrel had not been meticulously cleaned, which had given rise to the problem. (Having seen how LE's in my agency often neglect the cleaning of their weapons, I'm not really surprised to hear this... :rolleyes: )

I would like to add, from personal experience, that in the .40 S&W cartridge in particular, bullet set-back is likely to occur, and this can push pressures to very dangerous levels indeed. With almost all brands of premium ammo., if you repeatedly chamber and eject the same round, it's not unlikely that the bullet will be pushed back into the case just a little bit. If you do this 10 or 20 times, and check with a micrometer, it's readily detectable. In high-pressure rounds, this can be a very serious danger, but it's not caused by the gun - it just happens if you don't change carry loads on a regular basis. I've now got to the point where once I've chambered a round three times, it gets taken out of my carry magazines and put aside for practice use. In this way, I can be pretty sure that bullet set-back, and the drastically increased pressures it causes, won't affect me.

I bought several Jarvis match barrels for my Glocks, and found that they did improve accuracy, and allowed the use of lead reloads: but their tighter tolerances meant that misfeeds were now a problem sometimes, and I had to have a throat-and-ramp job done on them before I was satisfied with their reliability for defensive use. I have Glocks with factory barrels, and Glocks with Jarvis barrels, and feel confident with both.

I've also seen kB!'s with several other kinds of firearms, including 1911's, .44 and .357 Magnum revolvers, CZ's, etc. I have never blamed the weapon for these, but rather the ammunition and/or lax cleaning and maintenance procedures. I see no reason to suspect any other cause in the Glock kB!'s.

I guess, in the end, you pays your money and you makes your choioce...

[Handy]

Fastbolt,

Are you in fact blaming the frame material? How would the frame fail to contain pressure, or affect the action unlocking early?


Tamara,

Your usual fancy footwork. I'll rephrace my tongue in cheek statement so you can't dance around it:

DO YOU THINK THAT GLOCK PISTOLS ARE MORE LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE CAUTASTROPIC CASE HEAD FAILURES THEN OTHER WEAPONS OF THE SAME CALIBER ?

[ ] yes
[ ] no

[jc2]

Tamara -

A Sheriff's Office in TN blew-up three G22s with 155-grain Federal Hi-Shok JHP ammunition injuring three deputies.

Would the same thing had happened if they were issued Sig P229s, S&W 4006s or Browning Hi-Powers (all weapons designed for the .40 S&W) instead of Glocks? Probably not! ;)

Preacherman -
2. As with any firearm, it's very important to keep the chamber and barrel CLEAN. With polygonal rifling, this is particularly important, as any buildup of debris ahead of the chamber can drastically increase pressures, particularly with rounds such as the .40 S&W and 357 SIG.
I do find the emphasis on cleaning very interesting since it tends to contradict Glock hyping their product as low maintenance weapons that can tolerate a lot of abuse--an ideal LEO weapon! It seems Glock wants to market them one way them one way and maintain them another way. (I, for one, am a firm believer in clean, well-maintained weapons and am not condoning poor maintenance--that Glock marketing has at least tacitly condoned/encouraged poor maintenance has been sore point from day one.) Somehow, the entire marketing scheme of a low maintenance weapon that can handle the daily abuse of LE and then saying anything less than "meticulously cleaned" chamber/barrel can lead to a kaboom seems basically dishonest (in the extreme).
3. Glock specifically recommends the use of JACKETED ammunition only.
I have not seen that specific recommendation in any Glock literature (specifically the user's guide that comes with the weapon). Maybe, they need to amend their literature (and advertising/marketing) to the effect of specifically warning against the use of lead, plated, and thin jacketed ammunition?

[Sarge]

I guess that's why there have been so many similar occurrences with Beretta .40's..

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=beretta+96+frame+failures&btnG=Google+Search

[Gerald McDonald]

Gut feeling tells me there is a weakness somewhere in the system. Guy I used to work with had a Glock 40 kb. Factory JHP, cracked frame, blew magazine out. Glock replaced it no questions asked, no explainations given. Could have been dirty as I dont remember him being an avid shooter.

[MikeJ]

While we are on the subject of kabooms, I thought I would mention one that happened 2 weeks ago at one of our local ranges. This guy had a Ruger birdshead Vaquero that he was doing his own reloading for. To make a short story even shorter, the gun blew the top strap off and the cylinder out sending him and the guy next to him to the hospital for a few stitches. They took a picture of the gun as a warning to others about the dangers of improper reloads. He admitted that he was exceeding the proper reloading guidelines. Be careful and safe shooting, Mike

[jc2]

Sarge -

Why don't you get a little more specific with cites? I scanned the top three or four hits on your "search" and only found references the M9 slide separation which is (1) ancient history; (2) with the 9x19 (not .40 S&W); (3) a totally different problem; and (3) unlike Glock, has been fixed by manufacturer.

MikeJ -

Anybody can blow anything up with reloads (particularly when enthusiasm overcomes caution), but the concern with the G22/23 are repeated kabooms with factory ammo.

[Detritus]

Therefore it is reasonable to speculate that situations like that are why some 1911 grip makers add metal backing plates to their wooden or rubber grips.

actually the armoring of 1911 grip panels had very little to NOTHING to do with overloaded 45acp rounds. and a HECK of alot more to do with guys shooting Hot-rodded .38 Supers, that (like the glock .40s and .45) had barrels that left the case head unsupported. the results of a case failure in that setup prior to the steel inserts coming on the scene were, usually, Mag blown out of gun, grips permanently attached to shooters hand!

that was a case of "borderline design" meeting, shooter trying to sqeeze the last drop of muzzle Velocity out of the round/gun. resulting in guys having to have thier grips surgically removed from thier palms. but the incidence of failure with factory ammo was almost Nil in the guns involved.

Glock on the other hand put a gun out that left the case head unsupported, chambered in a round that is often factory loaded to pressures that make 9mm look like a fart (esp LE amo)! and the main reason for this decision on Glock's part.... they didn't want to take the time to do a redesign so as to have a properly sized and designed system. they knew that the 9mm frame guns would handle the round "well enough" and thought that the failure rate would be lower than it has been (and even now it's still a low statistic compared to number in service, but higher than it should be) .

they crammed 15lbs of TNT in a 10 pound sack. and we keep beating each other over the head in a debate on whether it's safe to light the fuse.

[dsk]

For the record I have not had nor seen a Glock kB (yet). However I sold the Glock 23 I had not long after buying it, all because the large bulge in the fired cases actually freaked me out. All it takes is an overloaded round, defective case, or whatever. Impossible with factory ammo? Well, once I actually found a box of factory CCI ammo where a couple rounds didn't have the case rims machined! There were a true "rimless" case. I sent them into CCI for their inspection but never received a response or a replacement box of ammo. It just goes to show that even factory ammo can be bad.

[Sarge]

"Sarge -

Why don't you get a little more specific with cites? I scanned the top three or four hits on your "search" and only found references the M9 slide separation which is (1) ancient history; (2) with the 9x19 (not .40 S&W); (3) a totally different problem; and (3) unlike Glock, has been fixed by manufacturer."

No need for me to be more specific- you figured it out for yourself. The whole point to that exercise was that the same cross section of the shooting public, who occasionally shoot reloads and don't clean their guns 'meticulously', use both the Glock and the Beretta 96, in the same manner and with the same ammunition. The Border Patrol uses the Beretta in considerable numbers, and with hot 155s. So where are all the blown 96's? Nowhere to be found, that's where. We don't get a continual stream of NCIC/TTY's on blown Beretta .40's, either. Oh, there probably have been a couple, but they are not in the same statistical universe with the Glock when it comes to catastrophic failures.

It's not the ammo, and it's not the cleaning issue. Cops have been carrying dirty guns since there have been cops and guns. Some of us are gun people, and some are not. Some, despite our best efforts to the contrary, seem to think that the only time they'll ever need that pistola is for qualifications. Maybe the good Lord will smile on them, and they'll be right. Not all of us have been that fortunate.

The problem with the Glock is with the gun, and more specifically the barrel. Their 9's are superbly-engineered defense/LE/military pistols, and there's no reason their .40 couldn't have been. But they cut corners, and re-bored the 9 instead of designing a .40 from scratch. The result was not what we had hoped, but I'm sure Glock is satisfied with the sales figures. You'd think they would be interested in protecting their credibility with LE and the shooting public, but they evidently don't see this as cause for concern.

Unfortunately, it appears that they are correct.

[MikeJ]

I am totally aware of that fact, just thought I would mention this occurrence as a bit of interest. Mike

[fastbolt]

Are you in fact blaming the frame material? How would the frame fail to contain pressure, or affect the action unlocking early?

I could've been a bit more clear, huh?

Actually, I'm not "blaming" the frame material at all ... I like polymer pistol frames ... although metal might more likely withstand such a casehead failure, in some cases, better than polymer. Just as polymer might not withstand falling onto concrete as well as metal, if a pistol were dropped onto such a surface ... although other variables would likely affect this, such as temperature of the materials, weight, height of the fall, etc. Polymer & metal both have advantages & disadvantages when it comes to their application as firearms frames ...

We had a reloaded 9mm ... 125gr LRN ... experience a casehead failure in one of our 59XX series pistols way back when, before we were able to use FMJ/JHP factory ammunition for training. The pistol suffered no damage of any kind, and was returned to service after inspection. The shooter was surprised, but uninjured.

Someone else had a similar casehead failure in a Walther framed SW99, and the resulting pressures cracked the polymer frame, and caused a piece of the frame to be blown out . The shooter was surprised, but fortunately only experienced a stinging to his hand where the frame piece left for parts unknown over the top edge of his hand. The slide, barrel, extractor, magazine (metal) were all undamaged ... and even the "exposed" metal parts within the frame appeared mechanically functional and undamaged. The frame required replacement.

Now, we were told during a S&W SW99/P99 armorer's course that after their study of polymer framed pistols suffering such problems, it was their opinion that a polymer framed pistol would probably experience frame damage something like 50% of the time problems like this occurred. This was a higher incidence than with metal framed pistols. Fortunately, such situations didn't occur very often, and most manufacturers were taking great care to design and produce polymer framed pistols which operated safely when used with quality ammunition ...

The only polymer framed pistols for which I can say I haven't heard or read about a frame failure, caused by whatever problem, was the excellent HK P9S ... although I don't think I've ever heard of a frame failure with the VP-70, either ...

Doesn't mean it hasn't occurred ... I just haven't heard of it, is all.

Now, Glock 22's have been mentioned in a growing number of instances where frame failures have occurred, and some of them have been of the catastrophic nature, where the frame was severely damaged ... and the shooter suffered some injury. Other models and calibers have also been mentioned in this regard, but the .40's have appeared to be mentioned in greater numbers ... so far.

I've watched someone qualifying with a G22 who experienced failures of the slide to return completely to battery. Fortunately, it also resulted in the pistol failing to fire. His recoil spring was weak, and a simple test revealed it lacked sufficient strength to return the slide to battery when manipulated by hand, with an empty chamber. Time for a new recoil spring assembly.

Casually inspecting fired brass on the ground revealed a few striker indentations that were off center, compared to some other primer hits from other Glocks at various times ...

I had a former Glock armorer tell me one time that "tolerance stack" might sometimes result in a condition where a pistol might not "disconnect" when the slide was slightly out-of-battery. If the aggregate collection of operating parts were within their various individual proper tolerances, but each of them were perhaps at "different" ends of their allowable tolerance ranges ... then when assembled together in different pistols, it might be possible for the resulting "tolerance stack" to create a mechanical condition where the striker might be released with the pistol slightly out-of-battery. That's why armorers check for such things when inspecting pistols for expected wear & tear, and replacing parts ...

Also, if a recoil spring became weakened to the point where when the trigger was depressed, and the striker spring was compressed, the recoil spring might lack sufficient strength to resist being compressed by the action of the striker spring being compressed. In other words, the recoil spring might not be strong enough to keep the slide & barrel locked in battery during the mechanical act of pulling the trigger and compressing the striker spring. If the slide was pulled out of battery by the strength of the striker spring being compressed, and the recoil spring lacked the proper strength to return the slide back into battery before the striker could hit the primer cup ... and the tolerance stack of the fire control parts allowed the striker to hit the primer cup with sufficient force to detonate the primer compound ...

Well, that might be a bad thing ... and a polymer frame might not be able to contain such a resulting problem as well as a metal frame might ... maybe ...

Ever look at the way some barrels have split apart after some "catastrophic" failures?

Even back in the 1992 Glock Armorer's Manual the Glock Pistol Inspection Form lists some interesting component checks. It lists the barrel to be checked for being bulged, cracks at the muzzle & longitudinal cracks ... cracks in the slide, "especially under ejection port" ... and "receiver cracked". Armorers really try to catch conditions which might have the potential to lead to eventual problems.

During another armorer's class one time, one of the other students was also a Glock armorer. When we got to talking about the differences in how various pistols "disconnected", the subject of a pistol potentially firing out-of-battery came up ... and Glocks were mentioned. He was of the opinion that it was impossible for a Glock to fire out of battery. Someone produced an empty G17, and we tested this with the "highly scientific" method of retracting the slide, inserting a pencil in the barrel and pulling the trigger with the muzzle pointed at the ceiling. I think we left a couple itty-bitty holes in the hosting agency's ceiling ...

We've since repeated this informal test with a few striker fired pistols, including other Glocks ... and sometimes a Glock would launch the pencil when the trigger was pulled, while the slide was being manually held slightly out of battery ... and then sometimes it wouldn't ...

More knowledgeable armorers than me have told me that any pistol is potentially capable of mechanically firing when in an out-of-battery condition. But are some more likely to do this than others? I'm certainly not qualified to make such a determination, and won't even indirectly imply such a thing.

I think Glocks are fine pistols. My personal favorites are the G17 and the G26 ... although I own neither of them at this time ... I think the full size G17 is a bit large for a 10-shot capacity pistol, but that's hardly Glock's fault ... ;)

I think we'll eventually learn more about the latest G22 failures back east. The L/E teletype said the incidents were being reviewed by both Federal & Glock, and interested L/E agencies could request the results of those studies when the information was available. We're certainly interested.

Anybody want to bet against an ammunition related problem? Not me ... not with 3 pistols involved while shooting the same ammunition, although of 2 different Lots.

And if it turns out to be an ammunition related problem, would the circumstances have been any different if different pistols, with metal frames, had been involved? Who knows? I sure don't ...

As has been mentioned elsewhere, even metal framed pistols aren't "immune" against catastrophic failures when a "bad" ammunition related problem occurs ...

I don't have ANY answers ... but I have many of the same questions as most of you ... and I'm always interested in learning anything else as it develops ...

I'll keep carrying ALL of my steel, aluminum & polymer framed weapons, though ... Of course, I'm not using any Federal ammunition at the moment, but that's simply a coincidence.:)

Oh yeah ... I'd like to add a thought that's always bothered me a bit ... A LOT of Glock "fans" are fond of referring to Glocks as "dry shooting" pistols, and "easy" pistols to "work on" and "replace parts" without having to be an armorer ...

Does this sort of thinking about a firearm scare anyone else? I mean, if armorers are trained to carefully check for the proper fit & function of parts in an assembled pistol ... which includes checking the functional operation in regard to the assembled parts being within the proper specification & "tolerance" for safe operation, in any particular pistol ... might it be possible for someone not trained as a Glock armorer to miss something when they're replacing "parts", or "accessorizing"? Not to mention ignoring the manufacturer's instructions for proper lubrication ...

[Handy]

Fastbolt,

I see where you're coming from; what's a failure for a plastic frame might have just been a lost magazine for steel. (FYI, the P9S frame is steel.)


I think the Glock in .40 particularly, does three problematic things:

1. Has that huge, unsupported chamber.
2. Can fire out of battery.
3. Has a ignition set up that works in opposition to the slide closing, potentially exasperating the first two.

In total, I think the not as easy to feed .40, which has a weak case for its 9mm operating pressures, is occasionally failing to allow the low mass slide to close completely, helped by the opposition of the striker spring. The gun fires, the action unlocks early and way too much pressurized case is exposed, especially on the bottom.

This theory predicts that such a failure, with normal factory ammo, is more likely on followup shots, rather than after loading with the finger off the trigger.


Does anyone know of a factory ammo KaBoom that occurred on the first shot fired?

[JohnKSa]

Hi jc2 (aka juliet charley from The Firing Line), I see you're up to your same old tricks--why don't you try some new material? I think it's safe to say you've completely worn out this topic over the last couple of years on TFL and now THR.

The more things change, the more things stay the same, I guess. I kind of figured you wouldn't be able to resist posting a little anti-Glock propaganda on a thread like this...

BTW, are you still claiming to own a Glock? I mean after posting repeatedly on TFL that you didn't own one and would never own another one?

Also curious as to your motive in trying to convince people that firing lead in Glock barrels is safe? You wouldn't be trying to generate a few more kB!s would you? You KNOW that it's not safe--it's been in print more times than you or I can count, and your quibbling about the exact wording of the owner's manual is a feeble attempt to dodge the real issue.

If you really wanted to provide useful information about Glocks and lead, you would have called Glock using the number I provided you numerous times. They would have told you what they tell everyone. Don't shoot lead in Glock barrels.

[Handy]

Jeez, John, you might want to leave the off topic personal stuff to Tamara. She's less likely to get a thread closed.

Or is that what you're up to?:scrutiny:


But really, did JC2 (great expose', BTW) say anything in THIS thread that was a logical fallacy? Or was the old TFL stuff just worth bringing up?

[Tamara]

This board offers a private message service that is splendidnly equipped for continuing personal feuds.

I'd suggest using it.

[fastbolt]

Handy,

I thought I remembered the P9 having a sub frame of steel, contained within a polymer frame. It's been so long since I fired one in .45 ACP that I may have it mixed up with something else. I'm thinking about the nice (but expensive) pistol that had the large & rather obvious frame mounted decocking lever (the lever that made it very hard to find holsters) ... fixed barrel ... rollers ... with the oddly shaped, but very comfortable grip.

Maybe I'm hallucinating ... ;)

[jc2]

Actually, I do own a G26 and carry it regularly (which has absolutely nothing to do with accuracy or legitimacy of my remarks on this thread, does it). While I did post a year or so ago that I did not own a Glock and probably never would own another I had just been through a move and starting new job where I havd been forced to sell many of my handguns (as I had advised you both pubicly and privately). Things do change, you know?

My remarks in thread concern primarily the G22/23, and I have been logical, accurate and well within the scope of the thread. I have remained, and remain, consistent in my evaluation of the G22/23. The remarks I make concerning the G22/23 should not necessarily be generalized to the rest of the Glock line--particularly not the 9x19s (as I have also stated in the past). Glocks are tools, and as a whole model line they have their own strengths and weaknesses. I appreciate their strengths and decry their weakness, but I would also add not all Glock models are created equal.

I believe (along with quite of few others) a combination of factors in including barely in tolerance as a standard (which out of tolerance on occassion) chambers, light recoil springs, the ability to fire out of battery (which is exacerbated by being striker-fired), coupled with the .40 S&W cartridge is a combination ripe for disaster.

I don't believe I've encouraged the use of lead bullets in this thread--in fact, I have limited my remarks to factory bullets and pointedly ignored lead bullets. I know in other threads I have stated I personally do not use lead bullets in automatics for a number or reasons.

What I have questioned (legitimately) is Glock's reluctance to publish in warnings or cautions about the use of lead bullets in their handguns if the problem is as serious as the myth would have it. It is one thing to privately advise against the use of lead bullets (or even more astoundingly suggest Glocks should be kept "meticulously clean"--contrary to most of the hype), and it is an totally different thing to publicly acknowledge in the various user's guide that Glocks have a problem with lead bullets, and they should be kept "meticulously clean" in order to avoid kabooms (particularly when the thrust of their advertising is that Glocks are tough, low-maintenance, take any abuse handguns). I think Glock strives sometimes to have the best of both worlds to detriment of shooters.

[Handy]

Fastbolt,

You're thinking of the right gun, it's just that the metal frame is the frame. The P9S polymer trigger guard and grips are just that, and not at all strutural. While uncomfortable, the weapon is fireable with the plastic off.

It may seem a fine distinction, but is applicable to your example. I imagine that steel skeleton is stronger than a Sig alloy frame, for example.

[JohnKSa]

jc2,

Congrats on your purchase of a Glock pistol and welcome to the world of Glock owners.

Or should I say... to the dark side?

What took you so long?

For what it's worth, I don't own a gun chambered for .40 S&W for various reasons, some of which are posted on this thread. (Some of which you have posted.)

I am curious about your statement that a Glock will fire out of battery (unless it's broken or otherwise malfunctioning). Have you a particular documentable instance in mind?

[surfinUSA]

I never worry about my glock 27. This happens in all guns. Yeah Glock is making the press right now. But over on AR15, The armory, page 2 general discusion someone just blew their Para ord. 9mm and somone else described the same thing in their CZ 85 combat. Both were wolf ammo I believe.

[Handy]

All guns will fire out of battery, in varying amounts. It's all just a question of engagement angles and disconnector play.

Both the Sig and the Glock will fire at the position where the barrel first comes into fully locking engagement, about 4 or 5mm from full battery. With the Sig, this doesn't seem to be a problem, probably because the hammer seats the slide the rest of the way.

On the Glock, this position equals the action opening quite a bit earlier than designed and failing to contain the pressure peak.

You can try it yourself with an unloaded or blank loaded weapon. On a newer gun, the muzzle will be just behind the tip of the protruding guide rod. You have to play around a little. Doing so will also demonstrate how much the striker spring is fighting the recoil spring.

I think the 9mms don't show this tendency due to a stronger case and better feed characteristics.

[Dean Speir]

 

Tamara asks:Out of curiousity, do you know what kind of ammo it was? Federal, which, of course, had case-web issues (http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-kb-notes.html#a2) which they addressed almost eight years ago.

Two weeks ago I e-mailed the R.O. in that department, Deputy Danny Michaels, to follow up on his teletype LE advisory/warning, and never heard back from him.

Suspecting that it was both a "Brotherhood of the Blue" issue as well as a problem with his command, I had a trusted firearms training officer friend from another department contact him right after that. Four days ago, Deputy Danny Michaels responded to him with a message stating simply that "it was the ammo."

Lotta problems with Glock pistols… this incident wasn't one of them.

And for all you hotshots who keep insisting that "a Sheriff's Office in TN blew-up three G22s with 155-grain Federal Hi-Shok JHP ammunition injuring three deputies," this was in Pennsylvania! (There's more than one "Warren County" in the USA!)

[jc2]

Dean -

You're right. I went back and checked--the NLETS said PA. I could have sworn I saw TN.

[BigG]

{40 S&W}...often factory loaded to pressures that make 9mm look like a fart...

I have to admit, that made me chuckle. :D

Somewhere in the literature provided with GLOCK pistols (I've owned three - 19, 27, 23) there is an admonition not to shoot LEAD or UNJACKETED bullets, and ONLY SHOOT FACTORY AMMO.

Anybody who looks at GLOCK fired cases is usually impressed by the pregnant guppy effect near the case head. Can't fathom why people reload these. :confused:

[Handy]

I didn't get that one (though cute). 9mm +P is a higher pressure load than any standard .40 load.

.40 has more power and recoil, because is operates at 9mm pressures over a larger volume. But it is not a higher pressure round.

[1911Tuner]

I took a trip to the range yesterday early to test-fire a pistol
that I had just finished with. When I arrived, i went to my
favorite bay...the one with the falling plates and Pepper Poppers
(It's a rough job, but somebody's gotta do it)

I saw the ground littered with Blazer cases...all .40 caliber.
Fussin' and fumin' about folks who don't clean up their messes,
I started policing up the stuff. I noticed that some had
the tell-tale bulge that suggested that either somebody had
been there with a Glock, or had seriously butchered a throat job... and then I found THE empty case...the one that had blown.
Glancing around a little further, I also saw a few drops of blood
on the concrete pad that led from there to the parking area.
Further investigation revealed two small shards of black
plastic.

Wonder what conclusions that we can draw from this...

Tuner

[Handy]

Well, those were probably just reloaded Blazer cases. :D

[MikeJ]

I was out at the range the other day with my 2nd generation Glock 23 and after reading all these reports on kabooms decided to check my fired cases for bulges. I was shooting 165 grain Amercian Eagle ammo and for the life of me couldn't see any bulges in the cases. I was just wondering if all Glocks are supposed to do this or if it only occurrs with some Glocks?

[Grump]

Gee, NRA Bullseye shooters kB!d their .45 ACP 1911s with overloads way back in the '60s. IPSC shooters got really good at it with occasional .45s (bad loads again) and much more frequently with .38 Supers in the '80s.

Hence, the "ramped" barrel was born.

I've put creases in .40 cases fired from a Glock and took that as a severe warning that the old "major" power factor of 175 could not be safely attained with 180-gr bullets and WW 231 powder.

Is the Glock barrel really "oversize", or just at the max tolerance for the specs? IN my NSHO, the Glock feed ramp cutout extends only about 1mm too far forward into the chamber for the pressure range of .357 SIG and .40 S&W.

But that only addresses the case failure kB!s. The OEM barrel chamber splits are rather troublesome, and do not appear to be very common at all in other manufacturers' guns. Why? I'm sure that overpressure ammo is implicated in every case failure and especially in every barrel failure NOT involving bad steel.

I don't buy out of battery firing with newer Glocks with the redesigned trigger bar--the firing pin safety is now disengaged later in the trigger stroke. "Tolerance stack" should NOT be possible to a dangerous degree with the current design--if so, the design remains defective in an arguably small way.

Because lead-bullet and pressure spike "misuse" is so foreseeable, I see the feed ramp support as another arguably small design defect which can be overcome with adequate user care. BUT what we need is some firing cycle tests to quantify how many cycles of reloading are needed to make a case brittle and let go at the feed ramp. This must be using pressure-tested ammo, with 25% overpressure "proofs" every 5 firing cycles for the brass.

As far as "tolerance stack," Glock and/or the knowledgable ones should PUBLISH the testing protocol to detect this problem. The pencil test is good, and the G-XXs I've examined stop bouncing the pencil just as the camming surfaces engage to unlock the barrel--it's still fully engaged/locked, but there is no "dwell time" from the 3 mm or so of slide movement that SHOULD happen before the surfaces meet. NOTE--the firing pin impact should still be centered at that point, within the tolerances of the round being centered in the chamber.

The biggest problem I have with this is the relatively clean (500 rounds or less with jacketed ammo) kB!s using factory ammo in well-maintained guns like those LEO stories. When the FACTORY makes a bad round, how far overpressure is it likely to be? We once again have a foreseeability issue here. If the process control/QC stats guys can tell us that figure either from forward-looking estimates, or from retrospective experience (or destructive testing like the legendary Clark's hobby!), then the firearm should be designed with enough safety margin to contain at least 95% of the ammo maker's errors.

Me, I use slower powders and clean my barrel usually every 100 rounds, and always by 200 rounds. I'll be tracking my brass as well. Since light loads go down to around 23,000 psi while still being not that wimpy, there should be lots of room for safety. Maybe.

[Handy]

Whether you buy it or not, I have had both my brother's 3rd Gen Glocks detonate primed cases not fully in battery, in a way identical to my 2nd gen.

The dwell time you mention is the lock. If the action immediately unlocks, it's no different than never being locked. The action must be locked for a period of time for pressures to drop.

If the action starts out at a point just before unlocking, then it is no different than a gas operated rifle that should have a gas port 14" down the bore, relocated to an inch down. Unlocking early will expose the pressurized case and it will rupture.

[Grump]

Handy, Newton's laws dictate that there is a delay between the bullet starting down the bore and the barrel/slide assembly beginning its motion backwards. Yes, it's far less when the locking block is already touching the barrel's unlocking cam.

What I find interesting is that the SIG P- series has noticeably more travel distance between reeely, trooooly, fullllly in battery and the engagement of the unlocking surfaces, as compared to the Glock. Leaves a lot more "wiggle room" for tolerance stack, doesn't it?

That's why I'd LOVE to superimpose a cycling time chart over a pressure/time curve. IIRC, other firearms (maybe even the Glock) don't move the locked barrel/slide assembly even 1mm rearward until the bullet has cleared the muzzle.... Anyone have more hard data on this?

But yes, the pressure just might still be unsafe as extraction exposes a larger area of case wall if the gun fires with the unlocking surfaces already touching.

[Handy]

Apparently, Sig extended the lock dwell on the post 225 9mms to increase accuracy.

[Grump]

Never examined a P225 to compare it with the 226 and 228... Did SIG increase the dwell time by altering the unlocking surface of the locking block, or by trimming the camming surface on the barrel?

[TaxPhd]

Trying to recall my high school physics, and I don't recall any of Newton's Laws of Motion indicating that there should be a delay. Which Law is it that says this?

[BigG]

The delay they are talking about is mechanically contrived that allows the bbl to recoil a certain distance before unlatching from the slide/breechblock which can then continue on its merry way. Mr. Newton is still safe (I think)!

[Handy]

No, Taxphd is right. Grump's post does make it sound like the bullet moves, THEN the slide begins to recoil at some time down the road. In reality, the slide/barrel drives in the opposite direction of the bullet immediately, being fired from the bullet just as much as the bullet is fired from it.


Grump,

I think Sig changed the locking block, but I would not be surprised if the change required a shift to all the locking surfaces. Does anyone sell a 228/225 barrel?

[TaxPhd]

George,

I know. I was just tryin' to get people riled. ;-)

No delay in Barrel/slide moving back. Delay is barrel unlocking from the slide.