Knife used by US special forces


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psyCel
January 14, 2007, 11:32 PM
What kind of knife do special forces use in US? I mean kind of knife what you will see in "The Hunted (2003)". What is the best knife for that kind of training?

Do they use different knife for killing and different for another purpouse?

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JShirley
January 14, 2007, 11:47 PM
There is no single "special forces knife". There is a knife used in SERE training, but I'm at a camp filled with SF troops right now, and I don't see it in evidence. :rolleyes:

Welcome to THR.

The Hunted does have a knife based on a real knife, but usage in the movie is utter poppycock.

Killing with a knife by the military is something most often seen in movies.

J

LanEvo`
January 14, 2007, 11:57 PM
What kind of knife do special forces use in US? I mean kind of knife what you will see in "The Hunted (2003)". What is the best knife for that kind of training?
I'd be willing to bet the vast majority still use the good old Camillus Marine Combat Knife/Ka-Bar USMC. Maybe someone with first-hand knowledge will chip in.


Do they use different knife for killing and different for another purpouse?Ummm...they have guns for that! I imagine their knives are primarily utility items. In fact, I suspect a Leatherman (or similar multi-tool) probably sees far more use than their fixed-blade knives.

Emre

SniperStraz
January 15, 2007, 12:06 AM
I've heard that the rule is: "To each unit their own"
That being said, I've heard of a few being used.

Camilus Marine Combat Knife
Ka-Bar Marine Combat Knife
Ka-Bar D2
AlMar SERE
Cold Steel OSS
Boker Applegate Fairbairn
Buck Nighthawk

Just to name a few.

JShirley
January 15, 2007, 12:09 AM
As I said, I'm at an SF camp right now.

The only common factor I've seen in knives here is that everyone seems to have a good folder. Most of 'em don't even seem to carry a fixed blade.

J

SniperStraz
January 15, 2007, 12:11 AM
Is there a prominent folder?

JShirley
January 15, 2007, 12:13 AM
"They don't like it when we ask them questions."

Look like mostly Benchmades, though.

possum
January 15, 2007, 12:19 AM
when you graduate from q course after the robin sage everyone is issued a green beret and a chris reeves fixed blade knife called "The Yarborough" knife. like the one in the link below.

edit here is the link:http://www.chrisreeve.com/greenberet.htm

knives i have used in combat:
gerber multi tool
gerber multi demo kit tool
Seal pup
Ka-bar big and small. both with serreated blades.

psyCel
January 15, 2007, 01:11 AM
I am a foreigner, from Russia, and my english aint so great. I just got interested when I saw that movie (The Hunted). I dont train or do anything like that.

Nice to see that the welcoming was so kind here and alot of answer in short period of time. And it seems to me that you people really now what you are talking about.

What would be your choice for that kind of use what you see in that movie? Because I was going to order somekind of knife so I could play around and probably hurt my self. :D (only one because i cant decide by my self)

I know that SF knifes are and need to be well rounded or how will you say it. But I am looking just that kind of knife what is best for that kind of use what you will see in that movie.

And thanks for the answers!

Edit: What kind of knife do you prefer? I mean this kind: http://www.knivesplus.com/KA-1281-KABAR.HTML or this http://www.knivesplus.com/KA-1461-KABAR.HTML or what?

hso
January 15, 2007, 01:33 AM
psyCel,

Welcome to THR!

Do you want something to use in the forrest in Russia or do you want something out of a movie? You'll find that the traditional knives you see an old country uncle in your country would use is probably well suited to the environment. On the other hand, you'll find plenty of folks here with differing opinions of what is good for forrest survival/utility. Everything from high tech fixed blades to old style carbon steel butcher knives to slip joint folders and back to high tech folders. The best thing is to get a good simple knife and learn to use it.

psyCel
January 15, 2007, 01:49 AM
Thanks!

Nonono.. I am not looking a knife to use in a forrest, I am looking that kind of knife what they use for the purpose what was in the movie.

It would come just for my room and it would be just a toy for me, but I want it to be top quality and really designed to be used for that kind of reason what was in the movie, for killing. I have a knife for hunting, but this would be most of the time in my table, for decoration.

I want to emphasise that the knife would come just for fooling around and playing and ofcourse it would be nice decoration. But it must be top notch and "real".

JShirley
January 15, 2007, 02:11 AM
Then, with all due respect, if you want a "real" knife, don't choose one whose chief claim to faim is that it was the star of a really bad movie.

Here's a "real" knife (http://newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=5279) that will cost less than half of this overpriced monstrosity (http://newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=4401).

J

Mandirigma
January 15, 2007, 05:25 AM
Its not the tool its the user. That said check out www.sayoc.com

Kaylee
January 15, 2007, 08:49 AM
The "tracker" knife is based on a knife called the "Wilderness Survival Knife" or WSK. It was made originally by Dave Beck I think - there's more info over at bladeforums.com. The originals cost a mint now, but several people are making variants of the design. (The TOPS models apparently have edges that are far too obtuse, making them durable suckers but not particularly good cutters).

Anyhow - I have a similar one, made by a gentleman out of Texas -
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=51307&stc=1&d=1168868913


His website is:
http://www.mtknives.com/wsk.html


As a general purpose woods knife, I really like it. More info here (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3020515&posted=1#post3020515).

As a weapon.. I think it'd suck. It's fairly blade-heavy, the handle contouring doesn't lend itself to defensive holds.. don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want someone trying to cut on me with one, but a plain ol' Ka bar or suchlike would make a much better weapon. But then, so would a rifle. :)

Looks scary though. Which is what moviemakers like.

hso
January 15, 2007, 09:51 AM
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/130/

Kizlyar is in your back yard and they have a wide range of knives that they are bringing into the U.S. and E.U. I've handled several and have been favoriably impressed. You should be able to find a good fancy fighting knife at a much better price than one of American manufacture.

Doc Rogers
January 15, 2007, 09:55 AM
I just returned from a tour in Afghan with the SF and everyone I knew carried the Benchmade knives. Of course, they were issued to everyone also. Many soldiers had their own knives that they also carried that they had personally purchaed and these were many different types. But all were issued the bemchmades.

Boom-stick
January 15, 2007, 10:21 AM
I think most people do, is what I generally did and that was to pick up what ever cheapo blade they can until they get to handle a 'proper' well-made, well thought-out knife, then the penny drops and the quaility steels start coming out to play:)

You also have to figure out whether it's going to be an regular 'user' or a 'shelf queen'. There are some cracking high end knives on my wish list but with the money that some of them change hands at I've decided to buy another house instead:D

The lower end of the wish list, Benchmade's, Kershaw's, Emerson's, (Some) Spydercos and Cold Steel's, Boker, MOD etc are all slowly turning up in the mail;)

mp510
January 15, 2007, 02:02 PM
Not necesarily about US Special Forces, but British. I recall from Andy McNab's memoir of his Gulf War service (Bravo Two Zero) that he (and his men) carried the Fairburn-Sykes daggers for taking down sentries, silently. He also wrote that he carried an SAK (didn't specify which model). In his autobigrophy, he wrote about carrying a machete in the jungle for cutting vegetation, and there have been pictures of him with Kukri's and the standard British field knife as well.

CWL
January 15, 2007, 02:06 PM
Welcome psyCel,

As you are in Russia, I'd like to know what kind of knives the Russian Spetsnaz carry. From what little I know, the Russian special forces do more hand-to-hand training than their American counterparts.

I have spent some time speaking to a 12-year SEAL and his philosophy is to never have to get close enough to an enemy to have to use a knife. They prefer to remove sentries/enemies with suppressed firearms.

Max Power
January 15, 2007, 03:05 PM
This is my first post here. I am impressed by how nice everyone is to someone with a newbie question like this. We all started off with being curious.
I did some reading about Spetznaz and they did not have very good knives.
I would guess that the AK bayonet and of course the spetznaz shovel.
A friend of mine from the canadian army trained with some spetznaz guys and got a real shovel from them in trade and he said it is not as well made as the cold steel version(I have one and love it). He said they were WAY more interested in things like snivel kit, electric socks, polylong underwear etc.
It makes sence when you think about it. They were not nearly as interested in cool soviet weapons as power bars and warm clothes. The Izhmash site has tons
of cool stuff.

There are 3 kinds of knives used by the military. 1 folders and multitools.
2 Fixed blades purely for killing like the SF dagger and 3 fixed blades that are both a tool and a weapon like the classic K Bar. There is not much call for the
number 2 simply because modern army's don't use knives very often,
Bayonets are making a comeback in specialized roles like prisoner transport
and for keeping civilians at a safe distance. I carry a multitool and a smaller fixed blade here in canada and imagine I would do the same in combat.
I prefer a smaller knife than a big K Bar like a Seal Pup or the knife I just bought last week the Scrapyard Streetscrapper 4 INFI.

The Green Beret knife by Chris Reeve is a nice knife but not great for actual use. Uncomfortable handle design with lots of sharp edges make it much better for it's actual purpose a beautiful display piece and badge of office like the presentation bowies the US army has always given out for occasions like this. Considering how hard the guys had to work for that knife I really doubt
they would risk damaging or losing it in combat.

hso
January 15, 2007, 04:29 PM
Welcome to THR Max!

sm
January 15, 2007, 04:38 PM
Tools for task as they say...

I have a feeling this one would be of use around rope, and other serious cutting needs like webbing and such.
http://newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=6572

Rest of the SUBCOMs seems to me would fill 'Special" needs.
http://newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=6083
http://newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=6541

A review :

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29838&highlight=SUBCOM

psyCel
January 15, 2007, 05:41 PM
I really dont know anything about the russian special forces, what kind of knife they use and etc. In here you really dont want to talk to them..

Just ordered couple of knifes:

- Ka-Bar Black Fighter: Dantes Price: $71.95
- SOG Fusion Throwing Knives, Set of 3 $35.50

Dont know if they are any good, but I am not the who pays it. :)

bubbygator
January 15, 2007, 06:15 PM
+1 for any Becker.

JShirley
January 16, 2007, 12:14 AM
Welcome, Max.

You, too, Doc.

Fred Fuller
January 17, 2007, 06:58 PM
Old story from back in the Vietnam era used to be that every Special Forces soldier owned three things- a Randall knife, a star sapphire ring and a set of divorce papers. A certain number of the newer generations still like Randalls, but they aren't as popular as they used to be.

When then- MAJ Nick Rowe was running the SERE school, he worked with former SFer AL Mar to design a knife specifically for SERE use. It was a folder, a BIG one and hefty in all ways. I came to JFK in the early 1980's and i remember Nick showing me the very first Al Mar SERE knife, serial number 1, that had been presented to him.

I worked as a civilian at Ft. Bragg for a good while, and spent over a decade in the schoolhose at JFK. Not long after I left JFK for a job on the conventional side of post, they brought Bill Bagwell in for a training session for some of the SF folks. Of course he trained them with Bowies, being Bill Bagwell. A lot of those guys got very good with the big knife, and the brass was so impressed (I heard) that they wanted to classify Bagwells's techniques 8^). A good many guys in that class started carrying Bowies (the bagwell designs produced by Ontario) and I know of at least one that was used in combat. It worked just like it did for Jim Bowie, too.

I've been away for a good while now and don't have any idea what's popular among the SF troops as far as knives are concerned.

lpl/nc

The Deer Hunter
January 17, 2007, 07:40 PM
http://www.m9bayonet.com/images/buck-m9/buck188.jpg ?

Long Knife
January 17, 2007, 07:49 PM
Lee-: Thanks for the history lesson. This information needs to be recorded.

Regards,

Rex

The Deer Hunter
January 17, 2007, 07:59 PM
Lee, i google image searched that but a whole lot of them show up, mind posting a pic?

JShirley
January 17, 2007, 11:55 PM
The M9 is a monstrosity. I don't know of anyone who likes it.

Gordon
January 18, 2007, 01:07 AM
I carried and used (not for sentries!) a Randal #14 in VN as a LRRP/Ranger with the 101st in 1968 and as an Agent primarily with SF for 2 later tours. They actually issued Gerbers and one other brand I forget to SF units from 69 on. Later in South American and African assignments as a civilian I carried a smaller Randal Aircrewman.
Today , knowing what I do I use these exclusively- a quantuum leap over a Randal or anything else I've found. :)
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=001808;p=1#000002

JShirley
January 18, 2007, 01:49 AM
Yes, well...I suppose the only way one could compete with a "Dark Genius"TM would be to get a knife made by Steven Seagal...

Fred Fuller
January 18, 2007, 06:53 AM
Deer Hunter,

What were you looking for a picture of? If I can find one I'll post a link.
=====

The old SOG knife slipped my mind (as so many things seem to do these days 8^). SOG was a Vietnam era special operations phenomenon, short for MACV-SOG (Military Assistance Command Vietnam, Studies and Observations Group). They issued a southeast Asian- made knife like the reproduction manufactured by the current company- http://www.agrussell.com/knives/production/s_through_z/sog/sog_bowie_ii.html .

More on SOG? See http://www.amazon.com/SOG-Secret-Americas-Commandos-Vietnam/dp/0451195086 .

The most-used knife by Special Forces troops when I was at JFK was still the GI "demo knife," still available at any self-respecting Army surplus store http://www.specialforces.com/store/catalog/product_27271_GI_demo_knife___stainless_steel.html .

These days, with IMPAC cards available and a vastly wider array of gear options, there's almost no telling what an individual A detachment might decide to provide its team members. There's a lot more... flexibility... in the system than there used to be, and SF guys have a way of getting the things they really want- just like always.

You want to provoke brisk discussion among modern SF types, forget knives- start talking about sunglasses... 8^).

lpl/nc

Gordon
January 18, 2007, 10:37 AM
Thats the SOG knife I forgot-Made in Japan!
BTW Steven Segal used an A.T.A.K. 2 (like the one in my link)in his films. He bought a special run of 10, 2 of which were not sharpened.;)

JShirley
January 18, 2007, 02:37 PM
:banghead:

Sniper X
January 18, 2007, 06:00 PM
I was in the 10th SFG in 1979~1987 and when I carried a fixed blade it was either a Gerber MKII or a SOG Bowie. We could carry what we wanted to carry and most carried SOG bowies or the Gerber MKII.

Sorry, typo Randall Bowie....I didn;t get the SOG bowie till the 90s.

hso
January 18, 2007, 08:48 PM
Easy John, you'll put a dent in your helmet. Just let the rope play out.:evil:

Lee,

The reference is to the Al Mar SERE lockback. Odly enough, I couldn't find a picture either. The MACV-SOG knife was often made in Japan after the first batch. To my knowledge, none were made in SE Asia.

SkippyNHS
January 18, 2007, 09:13 PM
still cant find those al mar sere knives pics???

here are some

http://www.thebladeshop.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=87

hso
January 18, 2007, 09:51 PM
Thanks Skippy, but those are current production SERE 2000 knives and not the original Al Mar SERE. The folder that went to the SERE committee looked like this (one of the first batch).
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=51609&d=1169255192.
Subsequent SF awarded pieces looked like this.
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=51610&d=1169255209

The folder was done for SF with rubber scales that Harsey attached and finished (he was injured making the first batch that went to SERE) and the fixed blade followed. Subsequent batches had the high density rubber and various micartas.

CISO Recon Knife (SOG knife)

I've compiled a little information from various sources for anyone interested in the knives purchased by MACV-SOG during the Vietnam War for use and presentation. I've had one of the Vietnam Gerbers and hope I'll stumble across one of the real CISO Recons, but fakes abound and reliable ones go for $2000+.

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e39.jpg

From www.militaryfightingknives.com



The original design work was started soon after SOG was formed as the needed non-attributable (sterile) equipment for use when behind lines or on "the wrong side of a border". The SOG knives were designed by Conrad B. (Ben) Baker of the Counter-Insurgency Support Office also known as CISO. Baker was named the Deputy Chief of CISO in June 1963. It was from this position that he worked with Special Forces troopers in the design of the knife. Blade design was worked up from 1/4 inch steel with broomstick handles for testing of different profiles. Testing was performed mainly by Master Sgt. Ross Bailey (retired). He earned many blisters "testing those damn knives". The leather handle is a direct result of the Marbles skinner knife that Baker owned and liked very much. Some say it is a knock off of a Randall handle, that is not true. Finger grooves were added from testing at a pig slaughter house for a sure grip. That is also where the idea for the double tine guard came from. The removal of the knife from the heavy pig cartilage made extraction hard, the double tines helped in the removal. Although it was known that the pig cartilage was not present in humans it was likened to web gear worn by enemy soldiers. This is the thought process used to design the guard, not body suction or other such nonsense. 7



This knife was designed solely for the 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne) operating in the Studies and Observation Group.8


Final approval was given by SOG / 5th Group on June 6, 1964. Drawings were provided to contractors in Japan for prototypes to be made. Japan Sword's prototypes were rejected by CISO due to poor steel quality. The selected steel was SKS-3 comprised of C-.9-1.; Si-.35; Mn-.9-1.2;P-.03; S-.03; Cr-.5-1.; W-.5-1.. The first knives ordered were the Recon 7" models. 1,300 with blued blades were ordered. These knives were also offered for sale in a magazine ad which is show below. This added to the speculation that they were merely commercial knives available anywhere, not issued by the military. The first 6" SOG knives were ordered in October 1966. This order was for 1,200 sterile blades with black sheathes & whetstones at $8.40 each. Many of these knives were later plated and engraved for presentation purpose. The second batch was ordered in March of 1967. These were to be serial numbered 1 thru 3700. The official designation was "Knife, indigenous, hunting, 6", w/Black Sheath and Whetstone". The "indigenous" was a code word used by CISO to flag sterile items. Final delivery of this batch was in Nov. of 1967. In 1967 the 5th Special Forces Mess Association (sorta like a sport club) ordered 1,700 presentation knives etched on the reverse side with the "S.F. Crest" and the wording "5th Special Forces Group (Abn.)" and "Vietnam" centered underneath. CISO assisted in the production of the knives but they were paid for by the 5th's SFMA. Delivery was in Jan. 1968. The final batch ordered by CISO were for the J.C.R.C. (Joint Casualty Resolution Center) in Thailand in 1972. The JCRC was tasked with the job of finding POW's, performing raids and searching for the remains of fallen comrades in South East Asia. These were the only official (through military channels) SOG knives ordered during the war. Many (unknown amount) were ordered by various detachments located all over South East Asia. Some were even reported to be had in PX's although this I could not confirm. Poor steel was the only real consideration for rejection, thus many variations were observed in guards, ricassos, spine, grinds, etc. All steel testing was done at Nichimen Corp in Japan. Yogi Shokai was the purveyor of the SOG knives in Japan. Baker worked with Kei Tanaka V/President at Shokai in the production phase. The last SOG knife was presented to Baker on Feb. 1st 1990 in a ceremony at the Japanese plant. It was a sterile version inscribed to Baker. 9
Although known as the SOG knife the 6" model is really a 5th Special Forces knife. It's ties to SOG are very close but it is none the less a 5th group knife. The original 7" knife was a SOG original. 10


Variations are many. The first were the sterile knives, followed by the serial numbered versions. The presentation models followed that. Bluing varied from dark blue black to the "plum" colored models. This was due to a different temp. of the bluing. Handle variations are with and without spacers. Guards were large and rounded on the originals made from brass. Later versions are also known to be made from Aluminum and steel. All of these are wartime made knives but as stated above many are private purchases. Later made knives were by Al Mar, Murphy and SOG (the knife company) and are clearly marked as reproductions. Many years ago (I am unsure of the date) Atlanta Cutlery imported SOG replicas. These were lightly marked on the ricasso. This were many of the outright fakes come from. If you ever see a SOG knife with any alterations to the ricasso area, however slight, avoid it unless you have irrefutable proof it was in Vietnam. These knives also have plated guards. Most owners would not allow one to scratch it for proof but it is a way to detect them. The SOG (knife company) knives occasionally show up as fakes but the are easy to detect. 11


The actual application for the knives is many. As these Recon fellows spent many days in the jungles at a time without resupply it was used for the normal purposes of a utility knife. It was designed to be an unknown as it could not be traced back to the US if found on the wrong side of a line drawn on a map. Today we call it "Plausible Denial". Lastly and probably most important it was used like every other knife issued to a special or elite group, it allowed "esprit de corps" among the men. It was recognized by others and placed an aura around the wearer of courage and the unknown. The same reason the First Special Service forces had their stiletto, the OSS had their stiletto, the Rangers had their Stiletto, The British Commandos had their Stiletto, etc.....12

When we asked Frank Maiorano about the knives he used when he was there he told us...

(1st) Gerber Mark II, a joke (in my opinion) when I was on the A Team, we needed to cut bush, sugar cane (for water) etc. I am sure Gerber is a great combat knife, but I am not so sure about a survival knife.

-(2nd) I carried a cut off machete, nothing fancy, but it provided a living!

-(3rd) A SOG Bowie, I had a couple (no need to make a living, just take a living).

- What kind of knife did you see most often?
--Mark 2's?

What did most of your team, A Team and CCN carry?
-(Indigenous) Anything USA issued !!

Thanks Frank!!13

The following are the references used for the above info.

1 SOG the History of the Men and the Missions. 4 volume set by Harve Saal Printed 1990 ISBN 0-9625970-2-3

2 ibid

3 ibid

4 ibid

5 ibid & SOG the Secret Wars of America's Commandos in Vietnam. by John L. Plaster Copyright 1997 ISBN 0-684-81105-7

6 ibid & Special Forces of the U.S Army by Ian Sutherland. Copyright 1990 ISBN 0-912138-43-2

7 Ben Baker article in Fighting Knives magazine Fall 1991 issue

8 ibid

9 ibid

10 Frank Trzaska Various research (means I know it but like the V-44 knife it will always be called a SOG Knife)

11 Again Various, Silvery & Boyd United States Military Knives Collectors Guide, United States Military Knives 1941 1991 Silvey, Cole III, & IV, and the above mentioned books.

12 My thoughts and mixed readings.

13 E-mail exchange with Frank Maiorano, RT Oklahoma, CCN

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection.html#SOG

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e10.jpg

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e24.jpg

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e4.jpg

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e11.jpg

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e13.jpg

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e8.jpg

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e18.jpg

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e19.jpg

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e16.jpg

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e14.jpg

http://www.militaryfightingknives.com/collection/e39.jpg

hso
January 18, 2007, 09:58 PM
From Ron Anderson at SOG Knives.
http://www.andersenonline.net/ciso/
http://www.andersenonline.net/ciso/ReconKnife1.jpg
http://www.andersenonline.net/ciso/ReconKnife2.jpg
http://www.andersenonline.net/ciso/ReconKnife3.jpg
http://www.andersenonline.net/ciso/ReconKnife4.jpg
http://www.andersenonline.net/ciso/ReconKnife5.jpg
http://www.andersenonline.net/ciso/ReconKnife6.jpg

rbernie
January 18, 2007, 09:58 PM
Dang, John - I saw the pic of the Becker BK2 and just had to have one; it's on order as we speak. Y'all are a *bad*, *bad* influence. :)

Fred Fuller
January 19, 2007, 07:54 AM
From what little I have heard, the story of SOG logistics would make a great book all by itself. Remember that all this stuff was under the auspices of a certain alphabet agency in the early days, and they were less hidebound in procurement than the Army was. I knew they obtained the SOG knives in the region, I just didn't remember where. Given that they were operating in denied areas, everything had to be sterile as much as possible- they got uniforms, web gear, rations etc. made up all over the place on contract. Recall that most of the RT members were 'little people' with usually only two roundeyes on a team, Asian made stuff suited them better re size etc. Still shudder at the memory of discussion of dried squid rations though...

Had a friend try to give me his SOG knife once, he ran with CCC and had to have been one of the younger guys on an RT at the time. I wouldn't let him do it, they were worth too much even then to be giving away. It's amazing how much the SOG stuff has gotten to be worth on the collector market, there are even guides to gear, patches etc. published now. Lots of those guys have genuine treasure chests for footlockers.

lpl/nc

Edited to add- The original SERE knives had green scales IIRC, but overall looked much like the knife pictured above. They came in a camoflaged belt pouch with a snap flap, the ones I remember had a 'harp' or SF crest pinned on the flap.

SamTuckerMTNMAN
January 19, 2007, 05:58 PM
lots of info...
Quote:
Originally Posted by psyCel
Do they use different knife for killing and different for another purpouse?
"Ummm...they have guns for that! I imagine their knives are primarily utility items."

Well...there is a reason we heard them telling their guys in Iraq to "cut your beards, it's ok with Allah, trim your hair down, it's dangerous for you and you can't fight for Allah dead."

It wasn't because of guns :evil:

I tell you a blade is a blade is a blade. Handled well, taken care of, as long as its not some fall apart piece of crap. Larger can be a hindrance in some ways.

"If you want a big tree, pick out a small axe."
- Bob Marley

SamTuckerMTNMAN
January 19, 2007, 06:09 PM
the root of your question is also why I have a forge...its easy to make, and you can learn to make any knife you imagine or copy, and see how they feel for what you want.
ST

usmccpl
January 26, 2007, 09:40 PM
http://www.hedgehogleatherworks.com/index.asp
This one is made by Tom Brown Jr. He was the advisor to the cast of "The Hunted" and designed the knife. He built it to do all the cutting jobs you need to do in the field.

JShirley
January 27, 2007, 02:21 AM
I have several friends who've trained with Tom Brown. Doesn't change that fact that his knife is incredibly ugly.

J

Eleven Mike
January 27, 2007, 08:37 AM
And it doesn't change the fact that he's a kook, knowledgable though he may be in various subjects.

Kaylee
January 27, 2007, 09:30 AM
Oh yeah, I agree he sounds like a kook. And the knife is definately fugly.

That said, it works pretty darn well. Think "woodsmans' pal" in a (comparatively) small and carryable package.

-K

hso
January 27, 2007, 09:46 AM
This is kinda turning into 2 threads, SF knives and the Tracker. I don't mind as long as John and Don don't.:D

We do know this, SF guys carry whatever they want, they are "issued" the Yarborough upon graduation, most of them put it away and carry something else when down range.

Hey, Kaylee. Since I let you play with mine when am I going to see that Hardin perform? Ugly or not, function has a beauty all it's own.


Yarborough knife (designed by Bill Harsey and made by Chris Reeves) given to USASF troops upon graduation at the US Army Special Warfare School.
http://www.soc.mil/swcs/museum/images/yarborough_knife.jpg

JShirley
January 29, 2007, 11:01 AM
I've had a couple more weeks to make observations. Every SF type here has a Benchmade folder. Most don't regularly carry fixed blades.

J

SamTuckerMTNMAN
January 30, 2007, 02:04 PM
And it doesn't change the fact that he's a kook, knowledgable though he may be in various subjects.

If you want to learn about calling in airstrikes, talk to experienced personnel. If you want to learn art, talk to an artist. If you want to learn shooting, talk to a great shooter - and if you want to learn about woods awareness and living in the wilderness talk to someone who has done it...for years....alone.....and with teachers.....in other words, a kook.

Don't go looking for master level woods skills with gung ho guys in LE, MIL, or movies. Find you an old crusty fella up in some shack in the woods...

Sam Tucker, definitely a kook

Eleven Mike
January 30, 2007, 02:10 PM
Sam, I've read a few of his autobiographical works. He's a kook. I considered taking his survival course, but opted for the Boulder Outdoor Survival School. They're oddball hippies, but he's a kook. I'd still like to take a few of his courses, but he's still a kook. His knife just looks goofy to me, although I wouldn't mind trying it out.

I'm kooky, but not much of a "survivor."

Happy trails. :)

JShirley
January 30, 2007, 02:30 PM
Considering how odd the thing looks, I will say the TOPS version I handled did feel surprisingly good.

LanEvo`
January 30, 2007, 03:00 PM
Well...there is a reason we heard them telling their guys in Iraq to "cut your beards, it's ok with Allah, trim your hair down, it's dangerous for you and you can't fight for Allah dead."

It wasn't because of guns I'm not sure I follow.

JShirley
January 30, 2007, 03:15 PM
He is insinuating spec ops tend to close with the enemy and cut their throats.

Oddly enough, the SF troops I'm around seem to be much fonder of firearms, and little fixated on blades. The only (not a "real" SF guy, but a Marine working with them, and doing the traditional SF job of training local nationals) guy I've seen with a big knife used it to keep the locals in line, instead of having it to stick folk with...

LanEvo`
January 30, 2007, 05:05 PM
He is insinuating spec ops tend to close with the enemy and cut their throats.Again, not sure I see what a beard has to do with anything :confused:

Besides that ... sneaking up behind someone (undetected) and slitting their throats ... without getting hurt or attracting unwanted attention??? I doubt "sentry removal" really works like that in real life. That's what suppressed guns are for. A subsonic .45 ACP, 9mm, or even .22LR through a suppressed pistol/subgun would do the trick with better reliability and less danger.

JShirley
January 30, 2007, 05:25 PM
Yeah...stuff to grab.

But you're right. Of course, the nature of the target must be considered- one has to ask, exactly when would knives- or even suppressed weapons- be required?

If the US knows where a target is, we're likely to use technology to take it out, if we can. No closing with the target. If we're not certain if contraband is in a house, for instance, we search the house- we don't start by slitting throats. When would we use the knives in this stealthy mode? When rescuing hostages?! How often does this happen?

The "operators" I see around me may not be geniuses, but they aren't stupid, either. They'd prefer to shoot someone than close with and knife them.

J

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