Reloading defense ammunition !!??


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ArkansasFatboy
January 15, 2007, 11:03 PM
:confused: Guys do you reload your ammo you use for personal defense? I was told it was better not to because if it ever came to the point that I actually had to "cap" a bad guy that the fact that I had reloaded my own ammo would go against me in a court of law. I was told that a liberal lawyer would try to say I just loaded the rounds to kill people. Well I guess that would be true that would be the whole idea but we that hold ccw permits don't go around looking for people to shoot in fact I hope to never have to pull my gun in self-defense but if I ever pull it I will follow thru and it will not be to wound the offender. But any way I digress do you or do you not reload your own self defense rounds:confused:

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cloudcroft
January 15, 2007, 11:14 PM
ArkansasFatboy,

Yes.

-- John D.

Grumulkin
January 15, 2007, 11:25 PM
It's not just the "liberal" lawyers that will try to get you but ANY lawyer out to get money for himself/herself and the client. I would never if I had a choice use handloaded ammunition for self defense. If possible, find out what your local police or sheriff's department uses and go with that.

Kimber1911_06238
January 15, 2007, 11:28 PM
I wouldn't.....just because you can already tell that the lawyer would use the excuse that you were loading "special killer bullets"

Mark whiz
January 15, 2007, 11:30 PM
Oh Boy....................this will start up a war of words - just like it always does.

COULD a perps family's lawyer try to use the fact that you made your own "killer" ammo to slay the criminal??? Yes - freakin' lawyers will try anything to make a buck. :cuss:

But here is the truth, up until now - there is absolutely ZERO evidence available that this has ever been successfully used in a court of law. In one's defense, all you have to do is point out the number of personal defense rounds being sold as such today by various manufacturers and their attack would become moot. And let's face it - EVERYONE knows guns can kill, and typically juries could care less about what particular bullet was used. Any jury that shares at least a half of a brain between the group, should see that as a totally vain attempt to obtain some sympathy.

Oh, BTW..................if you ever have to defend yourself in such a way - empty the mag, clip, etc on them. Dead men can't sue and the families of such deadbeats rarely do sue because they have already written them off as dead anyway and have little or no knowledge of their whereabouts or activities. (As a side note - it can be argued that emptying the clip was an instinctive act of preservation on your part, further justifying that you felt you were in mortal danger).

The biggest thing in defense is to make SURE that deadly force was necessary in the first place. If you know the law and that it was a "righteous" shoot - even if you end up in Civil court, you should come out smelling like a rose because the authorities would have already cleared you of wrong doing.

That's my 2 cents worth, anyway.
BTW - I do load my own defense ammo..................not because I make it more powerful, but because it is more accurate - Thereby putting any innocents in the area at less risk of being hit by an errant shot (another good court argument in your favor).

darwin-t
January 16, 2007, 05:50 AM
I wouldn't carry reloads, but if I did I'd get some factory ammo, pull the bullets and reload with my own choice of powder and bullets. At least that'd eliminate the chance of a primer not going off.

I don't see any good reason not to use factory ammo, though. They do a lot of research to get the best performance and have a pretty good record on dependability.

dmftoy1
January 16, 2007, 06:28 AM
I think in a perfect world you'd only use factory ammo for self defense. That being said it would get pretty expensive to practice with quality SD factory ammo. I know that alot of people say you should reload to duplicate the factory ammo and then shoot reloads for practice and factory for SD.

My personal opinion is that if you are going to use a pistol for SD the absolute most important thing is to be able to place your bullets. To that end the only way you're going to do that is to practice . .practice . . and practice some more . . . .and the only way I'm going to do that and be ensured that my gun reliably feeds my SD ammo is to reload. I just have a problem with buying 400-500 rounds of Speer Gold Dot ammo to burn through my SD weapon just to be "sure" that it'll function when I can make my own so much cheaper. Hopefully I'll NEVER have to know whether it would make a difference in court . . I think you're pretty screwed by the time it gets to court either way. (just my .02 from having been deposed by lawyers for various work related patent lawsuits)

Have a good one,
Dave

Phillip Allen
January 16, 2007, 09:29 AM
I have three loads for my .357 revolver: a general purpose load with my own cast 196g shilouette bullets, the same load with carefully weighed bullets and sorted cases (for practice at 75yds) and shot shells for fishing trips (snake loads)...that's it. A lawyer would be hard pressed to make a "good" argument that I lay awake at night plotting ways to kill people with my "special" loads.

Ben Shepherd
January 16, 2007, 10:08 AM
I carry my own handloads for CCW purposes.

Steve H
January 16, 2007, 10:33 AM
Next they (the lib lawyers) are going to tell you where you are supposed to aim....................

duckslayer
January 16, 2007, 10:57 AM
Unless you dip them in snake venom, it would be difficult to prove you loaded "extra deadly" bullets.

The Bushmaster
January 16, 2007, 11:14 AM
Not really...They will ask (demand) samples of your ammunition used in the "crime" (sorry...I spent a bit of time in the USSR of cal and just owning a gun makes you a criminal).:mad:

Steve C
January 16, 2007, 11:16 AM
I use factory ammo, usually police surplus +P or +P+, in my 9mm's and .45's not because I'm worried about reloads putting me in legal jeopardy but because I can't load anything more effective than the factory for those calibers.

In the .38 spl, .357 mag and .41 magnum its pretty much dependant upon the whim of the moment as to what gets loaded since I can load ammo that's as effective as factory ammo in those calibers and I keep very limited supply of factory ammo for these calibers.

The only time ammunition becomes an issue is in a police shooting since officers are bound by dept. policy and lawyers can make an issue of not following dept procedures and policies.

moxie
January 16, 2007, 11:41 AM
reloads I make to closely duplicate the factory ammo.

In response to darwin-t's comment:
"I'd get some factory ammo, pull the bullets and reload with my own choice of powder and bullets. At least that'd eliminate the chance of a primer not going off."

This is really a long way around the horn. Are you seriuos??

nitesite
January 16, 2007, 12:02 PM
Keep in mind the flash-suppressed blended powders used in many brands of premium personal protection ammunition.

You can't get that with the powder you buy off the shelf.

darwin-t
January 16, 2007, 12:21 PM
In response to darwin-t's comment:
"I'd get some factory ammo, pull the bullets and reload with my own choice of powder and bullets. At least that'd eliminate the chance of a primer not going off."

This is really a long way around the horn. Are you seriuos??

end quote

If I were going to carry reloads, yes, I am serious. Aside from one squib (and I don't think I'll ever see another one of those in my lifetime - I learned my lesson on that) the only way my reloads have ever failed is a failure of the primer to go off. With the pistol I have I can just keep pulling the trigger until it works, but that wouldn't be a desirable plan of self defense.

Top_Notch
January 16, 2007, 12:45 PM
But here is the truth, up until now - there is absolutely ZERO evidence available that this has ever been successfully used in a court of law.

Ask Harold Fish. After being convicted by a jury, one juror interviewed said the use of JHP swayed his vote. I could only imagine had he rolled his own.

And this juror was disturbed by the type of bullets Fish used.

Elliot: The whole hollow point thing bothered me. That bullet is designed to do as much damage as absolutely possible. It’s designed to kill.

Also, the prosecution made issue of his 10mm (more powerful than a police gun).

with this high powered gun, hollow point bullets and caused his death. That’s murder.

Don't fool yourself.

Mark whiz
January 16, 2007, 05:11 PM
Top_Notch

You "Imagine" he rolled his own????
I would need many details of Mr. Fish's case before I would even think to assume reloaded ammo had any impact on his verdict. Just because a juror was "disturbed" by the use of JHP munitions, doesn't mean it was handloaded. In fact, ALL defense rounds (except the fragible ammo like Glaser rounds) are JHPs of some type - even the LEOs use them. With this kind of thinking, if he had used SWCs - was he using the assailent for "target practice"?

Also was this issue in Civil or Criminal court? If in Criminal court, the type of bullet was a moot point - the issue in Criminal court is the legality of the shoot, not the method. Civil court is where the type of bullet MIGHT be held in question.....................but like I said before, it the shoot was already adjudicated clean in Criminal court, Grand Jury, Law Enforcement investigation, etc - you are legally in the right for the use of deadly force. Therefore it wouldn't matter if you used a JHP, SWC, a shovel, or if you pushed them out a window. :what:

RyanM
January 16, 2007, 05:23 PM
No matter what ammo you use, it can be turned against you.

Get factory ammo? You deliberately bought the most deadly ammo on the market, for the express purpose of killing people.

Buy the same ammo the local PD issues (a common recommendation for avoiding legal trouble)? Then you're a dangerous cop-wannabe vigilante that needs to be taken off the street.

Use FMJs? You're using deadly military ammo that's designed to kill as many people as possible by shooting through lots of them, and that *dramatic gasp* actually spins when it comes out of the gun! Horror!

Just use the best ammo for the job. If you're confident in your ability to make ammunition that's as good as or better than the factory stuff, go for it.

ilbob
January 16, 2007, 05:30 PM
I think that it is something that a clever attorney would put into the mix to confuse the jury. But I also think that if you used HP bullets they might bring that to the mix as well, implying it is somehow especially bad to shoot someone with HP bullets. Or if you were carrying ball ammo they might ask you what you think you were doing carrying military style ammo out on the streets?

PotatoJudge
January 16, 2007, 05:36 PM
Mark whiz:
I think Top_Notch meant to say something like "imagine IF he had rolled his own," as in "think about how much worse it would have been for him (and anyone in his position potentially) if, not only had he used hollow points, but had specifically handloaded them for that purpose."

I'm indifferent on using handloads for SD. I know it may matter. It may make things better for me, it may make them worse. I have no idea which is more likely, so I use whichever I lthink is best for a particular gun. As long as it's a good quality HP that is.

ATAShooter
January 16, 2007, 07:08 PM
I carry reloads.

SIRVEYR666
January 16, 2007, 07:40 PM
Once it goes "BANG", it's out of your hands...regardless of the ammo that came out of the muzzle. Just hope that you made the absolute correct split-second decision.

Top_Notch
January 16, 2007, 07:47 PM
would need many details of Mr. Fish's case before

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15199221/

My point was, the prosecuter made it a point about using a 10mm ("More powerful than a police gun" and using JHP "designed to kill". My point was had the loads been "reloads" I could see the prosecutor making a point of that as well ...

"See, he used extra special deadly powerful ammunition designed to kill and made by the client himself! He was obviously out to kill someone..."

A stretch? Given that the prosecutor made mention that he used a 10mm with JHP... I don't think so.

hossfly
January 16, 2007, 07:54 PM
Massad Ayoob strongly recommends loading your defense weapons with factory loads. I'm a reloader myself and do all my shooting with handloads but the guns stays loaded with factory loads when it's at rest.

JAMES77257
January 16, 2007, 07:55 PM
Oh, BTW..................if you ever have to defend yourself in such a way - empty the mag, clip, etc on them. Dead men can't sue and the families of such deadbeats rarely do sue because they have already written them off as dead anyway and have little or no knowledge of their whereabouts or activities. (As a side note - it can be argued that emptying the clip was an instinctive act of preservation on your part, further justifying that you felt you were in mortal danger).



That's murder 2 my friend.

ATAShooter
January 16, 2007, 08:21 PM
Atty: Did you put 3n1 oil on your gun 3 days prior to the shooting?

defendant: yes

Atty: So, you were planning on shooting someone 3 days prior?

Defendant: No

Atty: So, why did you put 3n1 on your gun 3 days prior if you didn't plan to use it?

Defendant: Maintanence

Atty: so that it would work correctly in the event you would NEED to shoot someone?

Defendant: Yes

Atty: So, you DID plan on using it sometime 3 days prior.

Moral of this story,... Liberal lawyers can make a can of 3n1 oil sound like a pre-meditation of murder nowdays. :banghead:

ATAShooter
January 16, 2007, 08:30 PM
I just set myself up for a " Anybody that puts 3n1 oil on a gun SHOULD be thrown in prison" attack. DOH !!!:neener:

dmftoy1
January 16, 2007, 08:38 PM
I think you have to have been cross-examined by a real lawyer to have any concept of how much they can twist ANYTHING. I've only had it done twice and both times I was a "friendly" witness and came out of there wondering which way was up.

I still go back to the idea that correct decision making on whether to use deadly force and bullet placement are more important factors than whether you're using handloads. If you shoot someone you've got some pretty serious legal ramifications to deal with even if it's 100% justified.

Just my .02

Steve C
January 16, 2007, 08:53 PM
My point was, the prosecuter made it a point about using a 10mm ("More powerful than a police gun" and using JHP "designed to kill". My point was had the loads been "reloads" I could see the prosecutor making a point of that as well ...
The Fish case was unusual and from the perspective of many his being found guilty was a result of an over zealous prosecutor, political pressure from the people who where distant acquaintances of the deceased along with the legal circumstance in Az at the time and an initial defense attorney that IMO wasn't the sharpest knife in the rack.

At that time under AZ law a person claiming self defense had the burden of the proof and had to prove themselves innocent beyond reasonable doubt rather than the typical criminal situation where the prosecutor had to prove the person being tried as being guilty beyond reasonable doubt. This has since been changed by the AZ legislature.

The police detective that did the initial investigation of the shooting came out and said publicly that the evidence at the scene supported Mr. Fish's account of the incident yet neither the prosecutor or Fish's lawyer pushed that evidence. There was some things in the paper about the police report being altered from the initial detectives report too.

Even so, any reference to ammo type showing an intent to kill would be challenged by a competent defense attorney as being prejudicial, inflammatory and not germane to the issue of self defense. If the judge allowed such remarks to go on record a good attorney would have called 10 police officers and asked them what type of ammo they carried, a ballistic expert to determine how "more deadly" was his 10mm vrs a police .40 S&W and a Dr to testify if Mr. Fish had been using a lower powered ammo, like using a Police load .40 black talon for example, would the person definitely be alive.

Mr. Fish didn't obtain a good lawyer until after he was convicted and tried to get a new trial under the newly revised AZ statute.

Mark whiz
January 17, 2007, 01:31 AM
Steve............that is exactly the kind of details I expected to see on this case - much more than meets the eye in a general discussion of an issue such as this.

dfmtoy1
I have been grilled by a lawyer a couple of times (although calling him "good or real" may be a stretch of the imagination) due to my fairly recent divorce............and quite frankly he tried to engage in a battle of wits, but he came to court without any ammo! :eek: :D After spending almost 2 full days on the stand under constant harrassment, my lawyer told me I had put the idiot to shame and had the judge eating out of my hand because of the way I handled the goof. That's why I don't fear lawyers - logic, common sense, and EVIDENCE will defeat lies & inuendo practically everytime. Know your local laws, and do all to stay within the guidelines of said laws, and unless politics and other garbage comes in to play - your evidence should do the trick. And as you mentioned, if you ever HAVE to defend yourself - you will be in for some serious grief, no doubt. So again, Make SURE you are within the law before pulling the trigger and be able to prove it.

The key here for me is why I choose to defend myself, my family, & my property in the 1st place. I refuse to be victimized, bullied, and controlled by a Criminal. If that is the case, WHY should I then choose to let myself be bullied around by a lawyer?? The principle here being I will not sit still and consent to being a victim - not to anyone. THAT is why we have a Constitution in the 1st place - so that NO citizen should have to allow himself to be victimized, not by criminals, not by the Gov't, and not by mealy-mouthed lawyers.

OH BTW - emptying the clip is NOT murder 2................... every LEO I have ever talked to said to pull the trigger until nothing comes out - except maybe if there are possible innocents in the area. Now, shooting the Perp and THEN walking up to his head to finish the clip WOULD be murder - and should be, but a simple act of instinctive defense, shooting repeatedly from the same spot out of fear for one's life meets every definition of self-defense.

temmi
January 17, 2007, 02:05 PM
This is an old question... and I prefer to keep it simple.
Find a good commercial SD ammo.. Crono it and try to duplicate it…
Practice with your handloads and carry commercial SD ammo. That way there is NO doubt you are using STANDARD ammo… and there is just one less thing to deal with… remember there is still the Civil “Wrongful Death Suit” to look forward to… and if you have used your ammo… someone will have to answer the question… “why was commercial SD ammo not good enough”… you can bet that trial will be much more emotional…

Nnobby45
February 17, 2007, 03:03 AM
But here is the truth, up until now - there is absolutely ZERO evidence available that this has ever been successfully used in a court of law.

With all due respect, how would you know the degree to which it had an impact in court? If the attorney uses it at all, he/she must think it will have an impact. Just more weight on your adversary's side of the scale that your attorney will have to spend your money refuting. It becomes one more bullet your advarsary can send your way, and you may not even know how badly you were hit by it.

It's some what amusing that there are those who are always challenging someone to prove that which is impossible to measure, since any single such issue is but one part of the whole.:cool:

2400
February 17, 2007, 06:08 AM
I wouldn't carry reloads, but if I did I'd get some factory ammo, pull the bullets and reload with my own choice of powder and bullets. At least that'd eliminate the chance of a primer not going off.

I don't see any good reason not to use factory ammo, though. They do a lot of research to get the best performance and have a pretty good record on dependability.

I'm trying to understand how you can have "pretty good dependability" with the factory primers you used "to eliminate primer failure"?

In a self defense round I want more then "pretty good dependability" to bet my life on.

tomhorn
February 18, 2007, 09:33 AM
I use that old winchester black talon its factory and very reliable oh I use a 44mag and or a 45 L/C you can have anything on the bottom floor as long as my family is up stairs if you try to comeup stairs I will stop you and it will leave a mark .on you and the wall behind you .

jeepmor
February 19, 2007, 01:18 AM
Double Tap - fast and not handloaded.

Bullet
February 19, 2007, 01:41 AM
nitesite

Keep in mind the flash-suppressed blended powders used in many brands of premium personal protection ammunition.

You can't get that with the powder you buy off the shelf.


This is what convinced me to use factory ammo for defense.
I load my own for practice.

bigsarg99
February 19, 2007, 09:21 AM
I carry 230gr Hornady TAP because I one I know it works proven stuff, Two I know im gonna get sued by the family of someone who assaulted me, while i was minding my own business btw, no sense making it worse by them saying I made laser raygun bullets ( even though all I had was ordinary componets). The Lawers will twist it so bad that I will have defended myself or family with something that hasn't even been invented yet. Besides might as well give the the bullet makers some feedback on how their bullets work!!!:fire:

grendelbane
February 19, 2007, 06:03 PM
I have never understood the people who recommend factory ammuntion for reliability reasons. The comments concerning liability, I do understand.

If you assemble it yourself, you know that their is a flash hole in the case, and that there is powder present. You can visually inspect the primer. With factory loaded ammunition, this is impossible.

Could it be that some people just do not trust their own hand loading ability? It seems like it. These people should indeed use factory ammunition. In fact, if they can't trust themselves to load the very few cartridges necessary for SD, they really ought to consider not handloading at all.

darwin-t
February 19, 2007, 06:24 PM
Something happened in Indianapolis that relates to the subject of self defense. Two guys broke into a woman's apartment. She shot and killed one of them, the other fled. That guy can be charged with felony murder because someone was killed during a felony that he participated in. Man, I LOVE Indiana.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070219/LOCAL1803/702190386/1195/LOCAL

Be sure to read the comments.

Idano
February 20, 2007, 09:47 AM
darwin-t,

Sorry to tell you but you have misplaced trust in factory ammunition, it can misfire too. I have experienced misfires in Remington and Winchester ammunition in the past. I now only trust my reloads never factory. Think of it like packing a chute would you rather jump from a plane with chute packed by yourself or some stranger?

Crimp
February 20, 2007, 10:21 AM
Keep in mind the flash-suppressed blended powders used in many brands of premium personal protection ammunition.

You can't get that with the powder you buy off the shelf.
--nitesite

Low-flash Vihtavouri powders are available off-the-shelf and are excellent handgun powders.

MCgunner
February 20, 2007, 12:20 PM
I don't listen to Mas Ayoob on this one. I live in Texas. Either a shooting is justified or it isn't, case closed. As they say, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, but I can't handload anything any more effective than I can buy, really. And, I keep it cheaper with handloads and I always have a source for those loads, important to me since I don't live where I can readily buy ammo anywhere, but Walmart. My 9mm stuff just duplicates CorBon and does it a LOT cheaper!

My point was, the prosecuter made it a point about using a 10mm ("More powerful than a police gun" and using JHP "designed to kill".

To which I'd ask him, was the .380 ACP designed to WOUND?!:rolleyes: Of course the 10 is designed to kill. I wouldn't carry ammo that wouldn't stop the fight! The idea is to stop the fight and the quicker the better! One good thing about lawyers, they don't often exhibit the ability to think logically.

Like I say, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I often carry a .357 Magnum, another cartridge "designed to kill". At least I know that law enforcement agencies around the country gave up the .357 for 9mm automatics, so the 9 must be designed to kill better, eh? :rolleyes:

Don't worry about lawyers unless you're a murderer. If you're defending yourself, don't matter if you shoot 'em with a 105 howitzer or run 'em over with your car or put an axe blade in their cranium, of chop their heads off with a chain saw...self defense is just that.

mballai
February 21, 2007, 01:31 PM
I've seen this discussion more than once. I would opt to use something purchased in a store. If asked why I chose it, I would say it was on the shelf and it was designed to protect me and my family if I ever needed to use it. And then ask if there was a law against protecting myself.

1911user
February 21, 2007, 01:54 PM
I would reload defense ammo, but I'd end up spending so much time with extra QC steps that it wouldn't be worth it. I'd rather buy a box of $20 ammo once or twice a year and let the factory do the QC work.

Clark
February 21, 2007, 04:04 PM
We did a survey and had a long thread on this, as have many forums.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=172213&highlight=Ayoob

Idano
February 21, 2007, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by 1911user:
I would reload defense ammo, but I'd end up spending so much time with extra QC steps that it wouldn't be worth it. I'd rather buy a box of $20 ammo once or twice a year and let the factory do the QC work.

I don't understand this statement, don't you take the same care regardless of what you are reloading? This is why you can never trust reloaded ammuniton from some else!

1911user
February 21, 2007, 05:40 PM
I don't understand this statement, don't you take the same care regardless of what you are reloading? This is why you can never trust reloaded ammuniton from some else!

Talk about jumping to conclusions! I take reasonable care when loading practice and match ammo (probably more than many reloaders). My reloaded ammo has fed, fired, and ejected with boring consistency for tens of thousands of rounds over the years.

For loading my own defense ammo, the QC level would go way up. It would be the practical equivelent of mil-spec testing and that takes time and effort to do right. I doubt you do this for your practice ammo and I don't for mine. You can bet factories do similar QC analysis and control for each lot of premium defense ammo they sell. As I said, it's easier for me to just buy a box or 2 of $20 ammo every year for defense ammo.

Idano
February 21, 2007, 07:06 PM
I didn't jump to any conclusions, you clearly stated you don't maintain the quality of your reloads to that of off the shelf ammunition for practice rounds. I simply replied I don't understand why you would reload to a lesser standard of quality regardless whether it is for practice or defense. Properly reloaded ammunition should at a minimum be equal to and more often superior then factory ammunition. Your comments implied that there are two standards, one for practice ammunition and another for when you life depends on it. I am saying you should always reload as if your life depends on it because it does! Maybe that sounds a little extreme but I don't believe in taking short cuts when it comes to reloading. Here are the answers to your questions:

I would be recording and testing primers, powders, brass, and bullets all seperated by lot date codes. Idano> Why, what practical application does this have, you certainly don't get this with any factory ammunition.

Do you record the lot number of the primers and powder for each batch of practice ammo you load? Idano> Again why, what practical application does this have, you certainly don't get this with any factory ammunition.

Do you retain unloaded samples of the components used in each ammo lot? Idano> Again why, what does this have to do with the quality of the ammunition?

Do you perform random sampling of 25% of each lot of loaded ammo then perform statistical analysis on the chrono and accuracy results? Idano> No, once I dial in a load and I don't go back and re-evaluate it unless I change guns. However, I maintain strict control over over my reloads to ensure that they are assembled correctly and with the correct charge regardless whether they are for practice or defense. By the way I don't believe in practice rounds. I only build up one load per gun and I strive for the point where maximum energy and the best accuracy meet. I then use those rounds for hunting, self defense, and practice. To me part of practicing involves the feel of the recoil, especially for pistol and I shoot 200-300 rounds a week at the range

Would you visually inspect all primers, powder, brass, and bullets before loading them? Idano> Yes absolutely, that is what all responsible reloader are suppose to do. I also clean all primer pockets before I reload.

Would you test the loaded ammo in a wide range of temperatures and light levels for consistency and muzzle flash? No, and do your check your factory ammunition and know it is consistent in different temperatures? Muzzle flash certainly not an issue for me since I use my ammunition for hunting and self defense not sniping and it hasn't affected my kill rate on rock chuck.

You realize that you are puting a lot of faith in that factory ammuntion that you haven't verified yourself with your guns. Remember that factory ammuntion is desinged to operate safely in the lowest quality modern production gun currently available.

RustyFN
February 21, 2007, 07:40 PM
No, I was advised by my instructor for all the same reasons everybody brought up. The way I figure it is if I by one box of self defence ammo and shoot six or eight in my gun to make sure they cycle and shoot good. The rest of them should last me years because I will practice with my reloads.
Rusty

1911user
February 21, 2007, 07:52 PM
Practice ammo doesn't need the level of QC that defense ammo IMO requires.
Your comments indicate that you don't see a difference; we'll agree to disagree.

All ammo types require safe loading practices, but defense ammo should be held (and tested periodically) to a higher standard. You don't think factories do testing on every lot and likely gelatin testing on defense ammo? By tracking ammo (and components) by lot numbers, I could remove only the suspect ammo if something wasn't acceptable during testing. Ammo manufacturers do the same thing on a larger scale. If you blew up a pistol with factory ammo, I am certain they'll want the lot number.

Muzzle flash and temperature sensitivity are concerns considering the possible need for low light shooting. For practice/match use, mixed brass is fine, but not for defense. The same for a meticulously perfectly seated primer. I've never had a round fail to ignite first strike, but if it happened in a match or practice, nobody gets hurt; not so in a fight. The same for burrs in a case rim; OK for practice, not for the street. I use a tight case gage for match ammo; anything that fails becomes practice ammo (where it will likely work fine, but why risk using it at the end of a match with a dirty chamber). Oops, that'd be a middle tier of ammo quality for me.

In reality, any of my reloaded ammo is probably good enough to grab in an emergency, but I prefer to stack the statistical odds in my favor. Factory ammo QC helps with that. I also shoot a few out of each new box of factory ammo as a final function check.

Idano
February 21, 2007, 11:05 PM
I agree we'll agree to disagree. To me all reloaded ammunition requires the same level of QC and all ammunition I load could possibly be used for defensive ammunition or practice I don't discern between the two I don't think when a person reloads they should either.

The Bushmaster
February 22, 2007, 10:25 AM
Hummm...Afraid I have to agree with Idano. Every round I reload has the same inspection requirment and Quality Control as the one before it. Whether it's for practice, hunting or self defence. Every item (component) is inspected, in some cases, several times (cases). Every powder charge is weighed and yes, I clean all primer pockets. I even do pre-checks of my equipment and tools including double checks of each setup. All loaded rounds are inspected again before the cover is placed on the box of completed rounds and then tagged with the necessary information on the box and in a ledger:)

halvey
February 22, 2007, 01:03 PM
We did a survey and had a long thread on this, as have many forums.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ighlight=Ayoob Ah, the good ol' days!! :)

Face it, you shoot somebody they will look at everything. Remember the guy in AZ who shot the guy who attacked him in the woods? One of the jurors specifically mentioned the 10mm hollowpoint cartridge he used because it was 'more powerful than the cops use and they are intended to be deadly.' :scrutiny:

The Brady Bunch is now saying .22's are more deadly because the bullet enters the body and bounces around causing more damage than simply going through. Don't think a lawyer won't try that one.

NIB Shooter
February 24, 2007, 03:57 PM
Atty: "Did you put 3n1 oil on your gun 3 days prior to the shooting?"

defendant: "Yes. It's my understanding that old designs like my gun that was frist made over 95 years ago need oil. The bullets for it were also designed nearly a hundred years ago. If I really wanted to kill someone, I would get one of those new fangled 9mms or something. I just used an old time gun to defend myself."



1911 - a very good year!!!!!

Matt Dillon
February 24, 2007, 05:04 PM
I'll put my two cents in with those who don't have a tiered approach to the quality of their ammo. My guns, fingers, and eyes are too precious to take chances with poorly loaded ammo. I put more trust and stock in my ammo than factory ammo; When one builds QC into every process and every step of reloading, from cleaning brass to final crimp, one can sleep well at night not worrying if his next trip to the range will end in tragedy.
Last weekend a friend of mine and I were out shooting and he had a .38 special case split down the side, causing the case to be very difficult to remove from the cylinder, from a box of brand new factory loaded ammo.
With the QC that I build into my loads, I can be sure of safe, reliable ammunition. Just my $.02; I would encourage folks to treat every round as though your life depended on it and build QC processes at every step of the reloading cycle.

NIB Shooter
February 24, 2007, 06:20 PM
I trust my quality control over they guy at the factory making $11 an hour!

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