[Harold Mayo]

Not a hilarious post, just a little rant.

By brother-in-law got accepted into the police training academy of a large Midwestern city. He mentioned to my wife that, although his duty weapon would be provided by the department, he must provide his own back-up and a knife. My wife called me because she thought that it would be nice to gift him with these items. It's rare that my wife actually WANTS me to buy a gun and a knife, so I was quite excited. The BIL hasn't even entered the academy and might not make it but I wanted to pursue the issue, anyway, since it was more fun than working.

I called him to see if he had a copy of the PD's "approved" list but couldn't get him. I got the phone number of the PD from the web and called up, explaining what I was doing. I got transferred around to various administrative personnel until, finally, they gave me to an officer.

I explained what I wanted to do to the officer and he informed me, quite haughtily, that I should let my BIL get these items for himself because...and this is part of what really got me (the rest will follow)...he'll know more than I do about firearms by the time he graduates the academy.

I couldn't believe the guy actually told me that.

Since I had given him the name of my BIL, I didn't want to say anything too inflammatory but I informed him that I was QUITE conversant with firearms and knives and had credentials as an instructor in the former.

He wasn't impressed. Well...he doesn't have to be, I guess.

What really got me was this...

I ignored his comment and asked what the duty weapon for the department was. He replied, "A Glock 40" (he didn't say "caliber", either). I said, "OK, do they carry a full-sized 22 or do they use a 23 for duty and concealed carry...I could conceivably get a 27 for him as a back-up."

The response...

(drumroll please)

"A 22 doesn't have much knock-down power. I told you that we used a Glock 40."

Well! I guess I'm just an ignorant civilian. I should leave the firearms talk to PROFESSIONALS.

Taking it in stride, though, I explained that the 22 is the full-sized model, the 23 is the mid-sized model, and the 27 is the sub-compact model. I got silence. After a long, quiet moment, I asked him which of those models it was.

The response: "I don't know."

So much for him. I thanked him for his assistance and found the number for the academy itself. I ended up getting a firearms instructor who apologized when I told him what I had just went through and told me that the G27 would, indeed, be a good back-up gun and he also thought that the choice of a little Benchmade auto-opener would be fine.

:banghead:

[El Rojo]

That is a good story. Unfortunately, such behavior is not just limited to cops. There are plenty of those types all over the world. It sure feels good when you politely inform them that they are not as high and mighty as they think.

[Don Gwinn]

Well, you caught the dope, unfortunately, but at least he had the chance to see how dumb that was.

[glockten]

I guess every department has to have at least one Wiggum.:rolleyes:

[DigMe]

Wow! That guy should work in a gun store.

brad cook

[DontShootMe]

you hadn't given your in-law's name. - the fun you could've had...

:p

"Can you take a look at YOUR duty weapon and see what the little numbers say after the work GLOCK on the slide?"

"oh, btw, the slide is the part that slides back and forth"

"Are you sure you're a police officer?"

"So, when you YOU be attending the academy?"

"I know you're only kidding, now really, please tell me which model your department uses"

"Would it be possible for me to speak with someone who actually has a clue?"

:p

[chaim]

Wow! That guy should work in a gun store. Darn, stole my line.:D

[Jeeper]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow! That guy should work in a gun store.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Darn, stole my line.

Exactly what I was thinking

[Combat-wombat]

What a moron. To think that anti gun people say that only police should carry guns because they have more training... :barf:

[gudel]

not everyone is knowledgeable or smart.
wearing a uniform does not exclude someone from stupidity.

[Mike Irwin]

I would have laughed at him.

I've been told that by any number of people in the past, military and police.

I've laughed at them, told them how wrong they are.

Then I've proven it to them.

[DontShootMe]

I wonder what the glock 40 will actually be.

Maybe, the AWB will sunset and it will be a .40 cal selective fire with 40 rnd mag.

:)

[El Tejon]

Please, oh, please don't let that department be Indianapolis. Please let it be Chicago or Deetroit.:eek:

[Gmac]

The Peter Principle strikes again!!!!:D ( Sooner or later everyone is elevated to a position for which they are incompetent)

[Phantom Warrior]

and he also thought that the choice of a little Benchmade auto-opener would be fine.


OH!!! OOHH!! Pick me! PICK ME!!! *jumps up and down*

Well, you get to hear my suggestion whether you want to or not. :D Benchmade autos are expensive. But they are absolutely fantastic knives. If you decide to go that road you might consider this (http://store.knifecenter.com/pgi-ProductSpec?BM3500BT). I own one and can't say enough good things about it. They are wonderful knives. The URL I posted is also probably one of the cheaper places to get one. Good luck, whatever you decide.

[Brian Maffei]

Great story.

I find the ones that claim to know everything...don't.:D

[Jeff White]

I think that the firearms field has the largest number of clueless experts of any endeavor.

I don't know if it's our culture (all men automatically are experts in firearms and their use becuase they grow up watching media portrayals of their use) or the fact that people in some professions (law enforcement, the military etc.) are trained to a high level of competence in the course of their employment. The media promotes that image and many people won't admit otherwise . Anyone remember the scene in Red Dawn where Powers Booth's charactor (shot down fighter pilot) teaches the Wolverines how to properly employ their machine guns? About as unreal as you can get. Proper employment of machine guns is a dying science in the Infantry, the odds of a fighter pilot knowing about it are pretty slim. That's ok though, I couldn't drive an F16 :cool:

The facts are quite different. Many police officers only know anything about their issued weapon and only know enough about it to maintain enough proficiency to keep their job. I have been handed firearms to clear and safe them by other officers many times. Better to give the unfamiliar gun to someone who might know how to make it safe, then shoot one's self in the foot. But let's not mistake this lack of knowledge for lack of competence with their own duty weapon. I know a lot of officers who are very good shooters and very tactically safe on the street, but who couldn't clear and make safe a Broomhandle Mauser without getting out an NRA guide. How many here on THR have trouble keeping up with the Smith and Wesson model numbers? Why should we be expecting an officer who's only knowledge of Glock's catalog is probably the one the city issued him to know that a Glock 22 was a .40 caliber?

We can debate the adequacy of police firearms training forever. But let's cut the guy a little slack. He probably felt that the citizen deserved and expected a good answer and was embarressed when he couldn't provide it. So he tried to bluff his way through the phone call. Maybe if we didn't expect everyone who carries a gun in the course of his/her employment to be Ed Ezell, Ian Hogg, Peter Kokalis and Pat Rogers all rolled into one, the poor guy might have been comfortable enough to admit to a perfect stranger (who probably pays his salary BTW) that he didn't know the answer, but would find it out for him.

Jeff - who has had a lifelong interest in firearms and shooting and has worked hard to achieve the tiny bit of knowledge he has, but won't hold it against another officer if he'd rather spend his off duty time on his bass boat. As long as he's competent enough to be safe to work with and I can depend on him for backup, I don't care if he knows all of Glock's model numbers.

[Gordy Wesen]

I'd get him the knife made by Charlie Ochs. Better knife.

http://www.oxforge.com/automati.htm

[Feanaro]

You would think he would actually know the MODEL NUMBER though. It's on the side. And the officers did say someone who came out of the academy would know more about firearms than Harold here.

I agree that he doesn't have to know a lot about guns but if you don't know something then say so.

[Penforhire]

Sorry, such lack of basic curiosity about one of the most powerful lifesaving tools he has in inexcusible and leads one to wonder just how many other, maybe more important, things this fellow is uneducated about. Barney Fife indeed.

[SquirrelNuts]

A friend of mine called our county police department and asked which specific round they carried in .40 Smith and Wesson. The woman on the phone said "we do not carry Smith and Wesson's, we carry Glocks." He said "thank you," and hung up the phone.

-SquirrelNuts

[Tamara]

Wow! That guy should work in a gun store.

He probably felt that the citizen deserved and expected a good answer and was embarressed when he couldn't provide it. So he tried to bluff his way through the phone call. Maybe if we didn't expect everyone who carries a gun in the course of his/her employment to be Ed Ezell, Ian Hogg, Peter Kokalis and Pat Rogers all rolled into one, the poor guy might have been comfortable enough to admit to a perfect stranger (who probably pays his salary BTW) that he didn't know the answer, but would find it out for him.

My first instruction to any new help at the gun store: "Nobody here knows everything. We subscribe to about a half-dozen magazines here so that you can keep on top of new product launches; please try to at least skim the articles about stuff you're not interested in. For example, I know diddly-squat about bird hunting or skeet shooting and the various guns used for it, and my eyes glaze over every time somebody else imports yet another variation of an Uberti SAA, but I try to keep current with what's out there. However, if you don't know something, do not just make something up! The customer will either A) know you are BS'ing him now or, B) even worse, he will find out you BS'ed him after he has spent money here. If you don't know the answer, say so, and then go find out what it is for the customer."

[larry_minn]

No real surprise. There are many officers that feel the gun is a tool they would rather not carry but are required to. I was chatting with a Officer in Northern MN and asked which caliber Sigma he carried. His response??? "We don't carry Sigs we have Smith somethings" He had no idea of caliber or number of rds it held. HE was the Firearms trainer. :(

[Jeff White]

Penforhire,

How much should he know about his squad car? Portable radio? OC spray?

We don't seem to expect the same level of knowledge about these tools as we do of his firearm. Why is that?

I wonder if they pick on officers on the car enthusist boards if they don't know which chip is in the electronic fuel injection in their Crown Vics or Impalas?

What about on the amature radio boards? Are officers who don't know the wattage on their portables put down as being incompetant?

It all goes back to what society expects. People in our society expect that everyone who's ever served in the military or ever was a police officer is somehow infused with this zen knowledge of everything that shoots.

Unfortunately some people in those professions, either out of ignorance or pride will never admit that they don't.

I submit that the officer in question doesn't have to know that the Glock 22 is the full size .40 caliber and the 23 is the compact and 27 is the subcompact. All he really has to know is how to use the one he was issued. He doesn't even really need to know anything more then it's a Glock .40 caliber, how many rounds it carries, and how to use it. I couldn't tell you what engine is in the Impala I use. I know it's a six cylinder. I know what the car will do. Is it necessary that I know how many horsepower is under the hood?

Personnally I would rather have an officer who was level headed and knew how to use his weapon, back me up then one who could give me the formula for the tenifer finish on the slide, but would be better armed with a club because he barely qualifies every quarter but thinks he shoots like Mel Gibson in the Lethal Weapon series.

Sorry, but I'm not willing to cast Don Knotts to play this officer in the story of the large midwestern city PD based on this phone call.

Jeff

[jmbg29]

I wonder if they pick on officers on the car enthusist boards if they don't know which chip is in the electronic fuel injection in their Crown Vics or Impalas?I know I would if the officer in question just finished telling his EMPLOYER - the civilian he is talking to - that cops (once they finish at the academy) know far more about cars than civilians could ever hope to know.

Is this guy a Barney Fife? No. Don Knotts never played a character so stupid that he would say "A 22 doesn't have much knock-down power. I told you that we used a Glock 40."

[Lone_Gunman]

Jeff White,

Its not so much that this guy didn't know the answers to the questions.

Its more that he made himself out to be an expert, with the line:

"he'll know more than I do about firearms by the time he graduates the academy".

This officer doesnt know the person he is talking too. He has no idea of this man's level of knowledge. Maybe Harold Mayo is really the main design engineer for Glock? The officer had no way of knowing, and assumed that a civilian must not know as much as a policeman.

Lastly, the model of your gun is a very basic fact. You really should know what it is. If it were stolen, it would be better to report it as a Glock 22 than as some Glock in 40 caliber.

Not knowing your model is more like not knowing whether your police car is a sedan or coupe, than what fuel injector it has.

This guy gets my vote for idiot cop of the day. Barney would be proud.

[jdkelly]

Jeff White,

I would have to agree with jmbg29 in that the LEO, by implying some expertise in firearms, should at least know the model of firearm that is sitting in his holster. I wouldn't expect an average LEO to know anything more, about any item he uses in his job, then how to use it correctly.

Some times we just don't know what we lack knowledge in, until we listen to someone who knows what we don't. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that I don't know much!

Respectfully,

jdkelly

[loudernhel]

You are being too kind by allowing the department to be anonymous. I think you should identify it by name, unless you are afraid it will come back on your BIL.

One thing to realize is that 50% of everybody is in the bottom half of their profession. No where is this more painfully demonstrated than in law enforcemnts. Small departments have a way of getting rid of people that big departments can't get rid of, usually because of better cival service protection. As a result they create all sort of positions specifically to send the sick lame and lazy to. I suspect that the high drag, low speed creature you talked to was one of these.

I appreciate all the people who pointed out that we shouldnt' expect cops to be gun experts. However they do need to have a higher level of knowledge than this cat.

Here's why:

Let's supposed Officer Dingus actually has to shoot somebody and is on the stand at the inevitable cival trial.

Attorney: Officer Dingus, what kind of gun do you carry?

OD: A Glock 40.

Attorney: A what?

OD: A Glock 40.

Attorney: According to your department, you're supposed to carry a Glock model 22. Do you make a habit of carrying unauthorized weapons?

And so on.

You're a good man to help out your BIL like this. The 27 is a great choice for a bug. That and a holster to attach it to his vest straps and he'll be all set.

Benchmades make great utility folders. Here's an idea to consider for a last ditch, rolling around on the ground, about to get shot with my own gun kind of knife though:

http://www.coldsteel.com/fixed-blades-safe-keeper.html

or

http://www.coldsteel.com/43ns.html

The advantadges of these is that they don't have to be opened under stress, and they are much harder to strip out of somebodies hand.

The safe keeper III is a little big but can be tucked into the waist band belt behind a mag pouch or something similar and will be fairly inconspicuous. The urban pal is so small it can go anywhere.

Regards,
David

[Dannyboy]

I had a similar experience not too long ago. I was working in my aunt's deli when one of the city's detectives comes in for lunch. He's got a Beretta on his hip and I asked him if it was a 92 or a 96 (I'm sure some can tell just from the grips but I can't). He looks down at his pistol and then back up to me and says, "It's a Beretta." Wow, really!?!? Gee, I hadn't noticed.:rolleyes:

I realize this isn't a police only phenomenon but I would think that someone who has to carry a pistol every day would at least know what he had.

[Don Gwinn]

Jeff, I know what you're trying to say, but in my experience, most cops DO know whether their car is a Crown Victoria, an Impala, or a Caprice. If you asked them if it was an Impala or a Caprice, most would not say "Neither! I just told you it's a Chevrolet!" Most probably at least understand which squad cars are V8s, which are V6s, which are RWD or FWD, etc.

Even more interesting is that the average police officer probably does know more about radios than the average private citizen--but I've never met a police officer who wanted to regale me with his expertise on radios.

I am willing to cut police officers a lot of slack on both guns and law, and I have. When the Mayor wanted to know what I thought of the Chief's suggestion that the town purchase Glock 22Cs because the ports were "cool, kinda like one o' them drag cars shooting flames all over," I didn't laugh at him. I explained what I thought the advantages and disadvantages of the porting were. I know they have a lot of stuff to know.

However, if you're going to belittle the citizen on the other end of the phone and brag about your expertise, better be able to back it up. If ya wanna tell him you and every other cop know a lot more about guns than he does, then you'd better know more than he does. Failing that, you ought to know something.

[El Tejon]

Don, shooting flames like a dragster!!!:eek: Wow, going to remember that one when I hear about the "Iwannacoolgun" virus not being the controlling test in governmental firearms.:uhoh:

[Jeff White]

You guys are missing my point. I'm not saying that the officer was smart. He should have admitted his lack of knowledge.

My point is that the public expects people in certain professions to possess a lot of knowledge on certain subjects. Often that level of expertise isn't really necessary for the job to be done right. But it's what we have been conditioned to expect.

Look back at the example I used of Powers Booth's charactor in Red Dawn. How many people in the audience either laughed, groaned or mumbled to themselves when he started talking about enfilade and plunging fire from the machine guns? The general public has the perception that everyone in the military or law enforcement is an zen expert in small arms. Not so. We all know it.

My point is; It's not necessary for a police officer to be as knowledgable about everything to do with firearms as the average advanced hobbyist, and we shouldn't expect that from them. All the police officer needs to have is a good level of competance with whatever weapon he's issued.

Don,
I used the example of the car because I have been asked "what chip is in the computer of your Impala?" by people who were into cars. I had to just say that I had no idea, it was a 6 cylinder, front wheel drive and seemed to have adequate power for what I used it for.

This seemes to satisfy them. If this trend holds true, I've probably been torn apart on some car enthusiast's board because I didn't know a simple thing like what chip was in the computer in my squad car.

We have officers on my dept who could tell you what chip was in the computer, and give you a long dissertation on why the old Caprices with Corvette engines and RWD were much more suitable for police work then the new Impalas. But ask him what gun is in his holster, and you'll probably hear "Glock 45". Why, because we're issued Glock 21s and either he's forgotten the model number or figures that Glock in .45 is a better description.

I am agreeing that the officer shouldn't have tried to pass himself off as an expert if he wasn't. All I'm saying is we shouldn't expect every officer to possess the same level of knowledge that we do. And we shouldn't paint his entire department or all cops with that brush. As has been posted before, there are plenty of experts working in gun shops, behind the tables at gun shows and writing in the popular firearms press who are totally clue less.

All I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't expect everyone who carries a firearm in the course of his or her employment to know as much as the average advanced hobbyist.

Jeff

[justice4all]

If the Colonel in Red Dawn had been a Marine, he would have known quite a bit about various infantry weapons and tactics as a result of The Basic School. But I seem to remember he was an F-16 pilot, so he couldn't have been a Marine, must have been in the Air Force.

Anyway, just as it's wrong to assume that your average civilian knows little about guns, it's also wrong to assume that your average pilot knows nothing about the infantry. Some of each do and don't.

[Majic]

I would go along with the officer in question about not knowing about guns, but after having to put the same one on every working day and not knowing the model of it is kinda makes you wonder. Evidently he don't inspect it, or clean it, or look at it for that matter. LEO's are trained to notice details, but this guy don't even notice what's close to him.

[CZ-75]

In case anyone is wondering why the nice officer didn't know what model his sidearm was, that is because IT HASN'T BEEN OUT OF ITS HOLSTER SINCE THE DAY HE WAS ISSUED IT! :D


I've probably been torn apart on some car enthusiast's board because I didn't know a simple thing like what chip was in the computer in my squad car.

Car enthusiasts don't drive Impalas. Or Crown Vics :neener:

[Jeff White]

Car enthusiasts don't drive Impalas. Or Crown Vics

True, but a lot of them are interested in if there are special factory modifications to the engines and transmissions in squad cars. I get at least as many questions about the car as I do about guns.

Jeff

[Delmar]

Jeff White


Take a breath-you're on an enthusiasts site after all. And I would bet a dollar to a doughnut that if a non-gear head called a dealership and talked to a salesman on a technical issue that they would well run into a similar situation, the same with fishing gear, badmitten rackets, whatever you would like to name.
It's in our DNA.....

[CZ-75]

FWIW, so you can answer questions.



Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor Package Equipment

Following is a list of the police package equipment incorporated into a Crown Victoria by Ford Motor Co.

# Brakes/4 wheel disk/police level (AKA Heavy Duty Brake Pads)
# Engine oil cooler
# California emission system
# Transmission oil cooler
# Full wheel covers
# Power steering oil cooler
# Heavy duty battery
# Certified calibration
# Heavy duty suspension
# P225/701R15 "all season" BSW tires
# Shock absorbers-nitrogen pressurized
# Conventional spare tire
# Upper ball joints-lower friction, lube for life
# 3.27 Rear axle ratio w/non-locker axle
# Stabilizer bars
# Remote decklid release
# Heavy duty springs
# Cooling pkg/police level with 8 blade plastic fan
# Heavy duty frame(chassis) & body mount lower radiator air dam
# Heavy duty (130 Amp) alternator
# Dual beam dome
# Ignition feed wires/3 connectors/30 Amp fuse Map light
# Direct feed wires/3 connectors/50 Amp fuse
# Engine compartment light
# Heavy duty U-Joints
# Single key locking
# 3 1/2" Aluminum driveshaft
# Heavy duty wheel rims(15x6 1/2)
# Dual exhaust stainless steel
# Fuel tank - 20 Gal.
(Didn't mention that the engine is the 225 HP 4.6L SOHC V-8 upgrade)



Impala:

http://www.gmfleet.com/us/acquiring/vehicinfo/summaries/ChevyImpalaPolice.pdf



The two easy answers are, generally, a less/ungoverned top end and everything is heavy duty, such as oil, transmission coolers, radiator and alternator.

[Jeff White]

CZ-75,
Thanks for the info :D FWIW we just took delivery of two 2003 Impalas.

Only have a couple Crown Vics left in service and only one Caprice.

Had a couple Dodge Diplomats when I started. It's been Crown Vics and Caprices until the last couple years, now we're running almost all Impalas.

Had a couple Caprices with the LT1 Corvette engines in them, they were really screamers. Probably more horsepower then we needed.

Delmar,
You make my point for me. We are on an enthusiasts site, and we shouldn't expect that everyone who carries a gun in the course of his/her employment shares the same enthusiasm for them that we do.

Jeff

[Harold Mayo]

No, we shouldn't...but when a guy talks down to me and implies that simply having gone through 24 weeks of training at a police academy makes one a firearms expert and then says what he said, it IS a very inviting point for us to make fun of him on, is it not?

I wouldn't have thought anything of it if it were one of the administrative personnel and probably not a whole lot if the officer hadn't been so "high and mighty" about things in the first place, but his response was a sorry one.

[fastbolt]

I offer no excuse for the apparent ignorance ... and attitude ... of the officer you spoke to ... and I wish I could say that he's a rare individual in L/E, but I fear he's becoming more common nowadays.

On the other hand ... if you want to entertain yourself by trying to get a sensible and factual answer about anything firearms-related from a general group of people ... it's a toss up whether the silliest, most attitude-laden answers will come from cops, or the average civilian firearms owners filling the public ranges and/or gunstores on any given day.

If I had to pick one ... I say the silliest things I've ever heard were at a public range. The reason being that most cops just aren't interested in firearms as much as they seemed to be in years gone by ... but obviously most people going to public ranges are interested in firearms, and often seem more than a little pre-disposed to offer their insights, opinions and expertise to everyone else around them at the range ... whether it's welcome, or not.

That's one of the reasons I quit attending public ranges ... Well, that and the fact that I became tired of being endangered by unsafe firearms-handling practices by people, and RSO's that were either not present, or not interested in watching out for potential problems. At least at our agency range I have some illusion of control ... ;)

Don't mistake my comments as a derogatory generalization of all public ranges and civilian firearms owners, as that isn't my intention at all. L/E can be just as dangerous on a range, and sometimes even more so, as some of them appear to think they possess safe gun-handling abilities simply by virtue of being able to carry weapons as part of their jobs, and having survived & graduated from a basic academy ... and don't spend any more time thinking about their weapons than they have to, which is often only at qualification time ...

Remember, L/E are simply members of the public whose job involves being armed at times, and in places where the general public may not be allowed to be armed, even with a permit. Just because someone has selected a job in L/E, that doesn't automatically mean they're interested in firearms ... any more than buying a firearm and receiving some minimal (but perhaps expensive) training means an "ordinary" civilian is guaranteed to be knowledgeable about firearms.

Also, most L/E aren't required to know very much about firearms on a daily basis, not compared to laws, codes, policies, etc ... L/E that enjoy firearms as a hobby will naturally possess more knowledge about guns, including service weapons, those that don't shoot for enjoyment or sport, but that's true about L/E that follow baseball, basketball & football, too ...


And sure, the fact that someone is even browsing this forum ... let alone someone that's taken the time to become a member ... might indicate they possess more interest about firearms, and everything that involves ... than other folks. And maybe even more firearms knowledge than the average L/E.:)

The officer you spoke to was probably just unlucky enough to be near the phone, and felt put on the spot ... and belatedly realized that he'd dug a hole for himself ...

You might have an entirely different experience ... and opinion of him ... if you required his professional assistance for some other problem. Remember, L/E are armed primarily in the event the discharge of their public responsibilities & duties ever require them to lawfully use deadly force in their own defense, or that of some other person ... Not because they're expected or encouraged to be firearms experts, any more than they're expected to be race car drivers ...

Sometimes it's difficult to overcome human nature when you're caught in an embarrassing situation, though, don't you think? I'd be willing to bet that officer walked right on by the phone the next time it rang ...

[DF357]

or ANYONE a new car, you'd look it over and notice it's a Chevy Caprice, - anyone would want to know what it was they were just given.

You would certainly expect anyone who was just given a gun to look at it, see that it was a 'whatever' and see the model number on it. Anyone would, especially the person who was going to carry it and use it EVERYDAY !

I can't excuse any cop for not knowing what it is one his hip. He's got to be an idiot who should not be a cop.

[ninenot]

Harold,

So, sometime when you're reading the paper, you'll see that "Glock 40" cop's name again--he will have shot himself in the thigh while cleaning his duty weapon.

[MAKOwner]

I wonder if they pick on officers on the car enthusist boards if they don't know which chip is in the electronic fuel injection in their Crown Vics or Impalas?

Actually, they do. I own Camaros in particular but general chevys are often discussed, and we have harped on about totally ignorant cops about the modifications to their cars, and the performance potential. Especially some of the comments about some of the Highway Patrol or other special Camaros and Mustangs some cops use. Cops seem pretty much to make up stuff they don't know about there too.

It's one thing to say you don't know about much about cars and your engine, it's another to deny that fact and tell me the computer chip you have is so great, it gives you 100 hp and nothing on the road in civilian ownership could possible tango with your impala (which of course has a barely modified 3.8l v6 with I believe 200ish hp and is hardly fast)

I've never understood it. If I don't know about something, or am not sure of what I know I don't BS people. Guess I don't get it, anyone who really knows anything about whatever topic will know you are total and complete fool after you make some BS up, don't people realize that? Same goes for some gun dealers, gun show patrons, car guys, etc, etc not limited in anyway to cops... It's just so many people feel cops are so well trained with firearms and say as much in the gun control arguments, that alot of times it is blatantly obvious the truth of the matter when they speak about them as in this case.

[fastbolt]

I can't excuse any cop for not knowing what it is one his hip. He's got to be an idiot who should not be a cop.

That's a bit harsh, don't you think? I mean, I realize you may find it hard to believe someone ... especially someone that carries a weapon all the time ... isn't as interested in firearms as others of us might be, but the last part of your comment may be a bit unrealistic.

Would you consider him to be an "idiot" for not being able to tell you the manufacturer and type of battery "stick" used in his rechargable flashlight? How about the "strength" of the active ingredients in his Pepper Spray? The alloy in his expandable baton?

He/she should be conversant with the applicable laws governing the USE of his firearm, as deadly force ... be able to demonstrate safe handling, loading/unloading and storage ... be acceptably PROFICIENT with its use, i.e. shooting it ... be responsible in preventing unauthorized access to the weapon ... and be able to properly CLEAN & MAINTAIN it (this last thing can be a surprisingly difficult thing for a lot of cops, though) ...

At the risk of throwing fuel on your fire, I'll give you something else to think about, though ... ;)

How about experienced cops that walk up to a range table at a qualification range, on which are sitting 4-5 different calibers of ammunition (3 duty calibers and 2 off-duty/BUG calibers) ... which are all boxed in the appropriate manufacturer's clearly marked boxes ... and then cheerfully load the wrong ammunition in their weapons?

.40 S&W rounds WILL fit in 9mm magazines, but they'll induce feeding "malfunctions" which are entirely avoidable.:)

Also, .380 rounds WILL fit in 9mm magazines, but they generally lack the power to fully cycle the slide properly, and induce another type of feeding malfunction ... not to mention the cases look a bit odd when the first round does manage to feed, chamber and fire ... :what:

The "standard" answer to our question of why they loaded the wrnog ammunition is generally something to the effect that they just loaded ammunition that was on the table ... Apparently, it's a bit of an imposition to expect everyone to actually read the box labels when they go to choose one ...

Or, how about the cop that wants to know how many rounds his/her pistol magazine should hold?

How about the cop that holds a box of "training" ammuntion in one hand, and "duty" ammunition in the other hand ... which are produced by different manufacturers, have bullet weights, and the boxes are even different colors ... and then either can't understand the difference between the two, or understand why there might BE a difference between them ... and then load & carry training ammunition for duty use, AFTER nodding their head when it was carefully explained to them, and they appeared for all the world as if they were actually understanding what you were saying ... until they cheerfully loaded the wrong ammunition. :banghead:

Or, the person that thinks a magazine will only hold odd numbers of rounds ... just because they only see witness holes on a single side of a magazine that are numbered that way? (That one puzzled me, because I actually stopped to ponder the weird physics that would be required for a double column magazine to only be able to "hold" odd numbered rounds. The person was just so sincere ... I thought I was caught in a temporal anomaly or paradox for a few moments)

Or, the person that isn't sure whether the round goes into the magazine "flat-end" first, or "pointy-end" first, and ends up inserting the rounds nose-first because they're easier to load that way? Another entirely avoidable shooter-induced feeding malfunction ....

The person that drops the freshly loaded, just inserted magazine from the pistol during a combat reload, because they forgot which little doodad is the magazine release and which is the slide stop?

How about the person that performs a combat reload by turning the pistol upside down, reverses it so the muzzle is pointed at them, firmly places the muzzle into their stomach, inserts the fresh magazine ... :scrutiny: ... Obviously, I just couldn't allow that one to continue, and had to intervene, although it caught me by surprise for a moment, let me tell you ... :what:

The person that pulls the trigger, and then stops and asks you why the pistol didn't fire ... and the answer is that they simply didn't pull the trigger rearward sufficiently far enough? :confused:

How about the person that pulls the trigger on a pistol which possesses a hammer, in order to "decock" the pistol? :cuss:

You don't think I could make this stuff up, do you?

All of this naturally requires immediate remediation at the time it occurs, and the shooters are able to successfully demonstrate the proper manipulations, shooting, loading, etc ... that time ... until we do it all over again the next time.

Civil service rules and Darwinism seem to have some weird affinity and connection, in the grand scheme of things ...

Notice I'm not saying that any of this is by any stretch of the imagination acceptable or normal behavior ... but it makes the cop mentioned at the beginning of this thread seem a little more "normal", and less uninformed ... don't you think?

Of course, none of us has seen him on a range, though, have we? Retirement is looking better every day ...

Stay safe, practice well, live well ...

[DF357]

could you get in and out of your car every day without knowing what you were driving? Could you wash your car without noticing the name on the hood or fender? Could you pick up your coat every day and not be able to identify it if it was in a pile with others?

If this guy doesn't know what kind of gun he carries after looking at it every day, cleaning it periodically without observing the markings on it, not knowing what size bullets he puts in it, how could he pass the academy? "Now which book was it I was reading in the law class? I think it was the red one."

Or how about, "Yeah I watch that TV show every night, have for five years or more. You know the one with the three beautiful witches in it. No, I don't know the name of the show."

Come on, as Daffy Duck would say, "What a maroon!"

[fastbolt]

Could you wash your car without noticing the name on the hood or fender?

Nope, but I know some cops that didn't notice when the Crown Vics we use started having a Police Interceptor emblem on the rear, instead of the Crown Victoria emblem ...

Could you pick up your coat every day and not be able to identify it if it was in a pile with others?

Nope, but then I couldn't tell you the brand name of each of my coats if asked ... not all of them, anyway ...

Or how about, "Yeah I watch that TV show every night, have for five years or more. You know the one with the three beautiful witches in it. No, I don't know the name of the show."

This one scares me, because I DO know some folks like this ... But watching a TV show that you select to watch, and not because you're required to watch it, whether you like it or not, might mean you're interested enough to know the name of the show.

I know you're trying to come up with reasonable, everyday occurrences which might be similar ... but let me ask you this ...

If you weren't interested in your issued car's model, and simply gassed, washed and drove it ... and used it as another piece of issued equipment, and perhaps not one that you particularly liked ... it's not unreasonable to consider that some people might not remember what model patrol car they drove, is it? Although they SHOULD get the brand name right ...

We had a young cop once that called in a Stop on a vehicle he thought was a Twin Cam, not realizing it was a Saturn, and that the Twin Cam emblem he saw ... above the SATURN on the bumper ... wasn't an actual make of car. He just wasn't familiar with cars, and hadn't yet learned that when you stop cars for a living, it might be important to be able to identify the make & model of the car that might contain a bad guy ... especially if the car lacks a plate.

I guess I'm just saying that while Harold's initial posting made the officer seem a bit pathetic, regarding his lack of knowledge and oh-so-obvious effort to sound as if he was knowleable, it's just that this isn't anywhere near as rare as most civilian firearms enthusiasts would probably like to think ...

My favorite if his posting, though, was the ... "A 22 doesn't have much knock-down power. I told you that we used a Glock 40."

And you're right ... The Great Daffy did have the slightly-less-than-PC, but correct, judgment about these sort of folks.;)

Don't think it's going to get any better, any time soon though ... Not in the cities or suburban areas, at least ...

Heavy sigh ...

Personally, I always like the FIRST person I encountered at our Qualification range who had loaded their magazines with the rounds inserted backwards ... when they answered my inevitable "Why?" by answering that the rounds went in easier that way ... and they were so sincere. I guess they just hadn't thought far enough ahead to consider that the bullet had to be pointed a different way to leave the pistol barrel.

Hey, I'm grasping ... I won't guarantee they even knew which end was the "bullet" ... :banghead:

And before someone asks ... while the first person that did this at the range was a woman, the next person was a man ... so it's been fairly distributed among the genders ... so far ...

By the way, I've also watched folks load buckshot in the shotgun magazine BACKWARDs ... AND do the same while dropping a loose round into the open ejection port of an empty shotgun ... It DID help one fellow remember how to orient and drop a loose round into the empty shotgun's open ejection port when I suggested he remember to drop the buckshot round into the port SHINY END TO THE REAR. The sad part is that while I was being politely sarcastic, he thought I was being helpful, and it DID help him ... and he appeared grateful ... :uhoh:

One of the guys at work recently told me something ... and that is that after he'd started showing up at Qualification ranges a bit early, and remaining longer to stay and slip in some practice, he'd started standing behind whichever scenario I was working and watching as other shooters lined up and went through the scenario. He said he'd never before realized how much we had to put up with, nor ever been so entertained ...

Of course, that's because he's a very skilled shooter who doesn't ever have any significant problems, and he's just never paid much attention to the other folks when he zipped in, qualified, and zipped out ... I told him I was glad HE thought it was so entertaining ... :scrutiny:

I hope he enjoys it as much when some of these folks show up to cover him. :neener:

[jmbg29]

My point is that the public expects people in certain professions to possess a lot of knowledge on certain subjects. Well good for you if that is your point, but that has nothing to do with the premise of this particular thread.

BTW I share your opinion, but with the modifier: some members of "the public". As a member of "the public" I learned a long time ago to be pleasantly surprised when I meet a person (from any profession) that knows a thing or two.

I really become ecstatic when I meet people that "possess a lot of knowledge". They tend to be rare finds. Got to wade through a heap of E.E.G. flatwavers to get to them. [/SIGH]

[CZ-75]

I really become ecstatic when I meet people that "possess a lot of knowledge". They tend to be rare finds. Got to wade through a heap of E.E.G. flatwavers to get to them.

There was a great sign I once saw, which went something like "will all employees dying on the job please have the courtesy to do so lying down so we can tell them apart from the other employees." :D

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

I graduated THE police academy years ago .
All I can say is damn.
I mean damn.

[Gmac]

Your average cop ain't rocket scientist material. that's why he's a cop .

[CZ-75]

Your average anything ain't rocket scientist material, for the most part.

There are barely capable doctors, lawyers, and scientists. Of course, the less capable in these professions are performing at a higher intellectual level than the best in many other fields.

If you want to criticize cops, perhaps go for their attitude, not their intelligence. The few I notice most are "us vs. you civilians," "You weren't there" (neither was the grand jury), and "MP-5/BDU fever."

[Erik]

The average LEO doesn't come close to the average THR or TFL member in terms of knowledge about firearms. They simply don't care enough.

Guess what? The average gun owner doesn't either.

[tommytrauma]

Sorry, such lack of basic curiosity about one of the most powerful lifesaving tools he has in inexcusible and leads one to wonder just how many other, maybe more important, things this fellow is uneducated about. Barney Fife indeed.

On one hand, I agree. On the other, we know that many cops are carrying auto defibs now so they can act as first responders for cardiac calls. I expect any cop who has one to be able to put the pads on and push the shock button when the machine tells him to. I don't expect to be able to tell me if it's monophasic of biphasic, tell me the manufacturer, tell me the jules setting for each successive shock, etc. He probably doesn't care, and it really doesn't matter for what he does. He can use the life saving device proficiently, and that's what matters.

I'm well beyond any belief that most cops are shooters. I do hope and pray for basic compentence though.

[CZ-75]

I do hope and pray for basic compentence though.

I'm just hoping they load the bullets in the right direction. :rolleyes:

[Art Eatman]

Lots of experts, ain't.

In Basic Training, an SFC, a grand Guru of the Garand, explained that it was a "semi-automatic, gas-operated shoulder weapon". He then went on to explain that what made it work was that with the 50,000 psi chamber pressure, 25,000 pounds (sic) pushed on the bullet and 25,000 pounds (sic) pushed on the bolt.

One of my smarter non-moves was to refrain from asking the purpose of the gas port. :) (He never mentioned that apparently unneeded feature.)

Art

[280PLUS]

chances are they mean something capable of cutting seatbelts and rope.

seatbelts for obvious reasons and rope, well...

i don't think they meant as a backup weapon for fighting.

you might check though

good luck to him

:D

ps,,,bullets are directional???:neener:

[fastbolt]

I'm just hoping they load the bullets in the right direction.
ps,,,bullets are directional???

You guys are killing me ... yuk it up. :)

I thought someone was simply pulling my leg the first time I saw a magazine loaded full of rounds inserted backwards ...
:what:

Wanna bet someday someone will hear something about Dutch-loading a magazine, and load every other round facing the opposite direction?
:neener:

You're killing me ...

[bogie]

Heh, heh... I _love_ the so-called experts that our police forces produce. Just cuz they're issued something doesn't mean they know what to do with it.

So... (this works best with an audience)

"Well, bubba, sounds like you must be pretty darn good with your boomstick, right?"

"Yup. I can neuter a gnat at 600 yards!"

"Okay. Wanna prove it? I'll pick you up and take you out to my club, and I'll shoot my gun, and you shoot yours. Or if you want, I'll shoot yours too. How much money you got?"

I _love_ it when the folks see a 100 yard range, and then I find out that they've done all their practicing indoors at 25 yards. And than when I put the targets out at 200... Had one guy show up with a very nice M-14 once tho... (shoulda bet him rifles, but did a coffee cup vs. $100 - nice cup...). But at 200 yards vs a rifle that can group inside a quarter at that distance... well...

Then there is the concept of the victi... er... "shooter" puttin' up a target, firing a whole mag outta the glock at it, and then muttering that the gun must be messed up - So I ask to see it. Make bangy bangy noises, and holes start appearing in the paper...

Heh...

[TheOtherOne]

I couldn't tell you what engine is in the Impala I use. I know it's a six cylinder. I know what the car will do.
Oh man! You got screwed! Tell them you want to trade in that POS unibody for a '96 Impala. The LT1 is the only engine to have in any car, especially a cop car.

:D


Sorry, I know I'm off-topic here. I do see your point though.

[bogie]

One thing to take into consideration is that "gun nuts" aren't overly encouraged to join police departments. The average police recruiter is more interested in one's typing speed than if one is a world-class handgun competitor.

[CR_OPSO]

Just my .02

THIS particular guy was a jerk. :cuss:
His only mistake in my book was being an a$$ by assuming cops know more about guns.

I carry a Beretta 96 Centurion. If someone asked "what kind of gun is that?". I usually say "Beretta 40" - meaning "a Beretta in 40 S&W" - assuming that they asked because they have no clue - not because they're gun experts - If I say "96", the usual response is, "is that a 9?".

I have limited knowledge on Glocks - but I can still pick one up, load it, and fire it with no problem - I have no clue what model # is which caliber and don't really care to - most Glocks look very similar - as long as I know it's a 40 S&W, who cares if I know the model #. The first time I heard someone say "Glock 22", the first thought was, "Glock .22 LR?". I own one Ruger in .22 cal - and I don't call it a "Ruger Super Single Six" everytime I refer to it - just "my Ruger 22". Yeah I felt stupid when it dawned on me that was the model #. I would also know to look for the cal stamped on the gun if I didn't know which was which.

However, I have NEVER driven an Impala and can easily ID one from a distance (even at night - by the tail lights). Go figure.

Bottom line - I know my model #, but I don't fault the guy for not knowing his (especially if it was issued) AND DEFINITELY for not knowing what the Glock 22 was if HIS wasn't a Model 22 - ** but his ATTITUDE is inexcusable. It does make me wonder though - are you sure this was a street cop, not just someone in dispatch? (Not dissing dispatchers, just most of ours don't carry firearms)
CR

[Penforhire]

Jeff, I'm an engineering manager in electronics manufacturing. I expect I work with a crapload more equipment than the average cop. And yes, I know that level of detail you are suggesting. Any engineer who works with me better know his tools he loses some serious respect.

I have even higher expectations for law enforcement officers because we give them greater authority, although people may be injured or killed if I screw up too.

So, after reading your position, I still say knowledge of various tool details, Crown Vic to Glocks, is vital to "doing a good job." If this is a problem of the lowest common denominator, stupid people, then we need higher hiring standards in law enforcement.

[RX-178]

*edit*

[98C5]

Maybe the guy was really a janitor pretending to be a cop.


:p

[MikePGS]

Please let it be Chicago or Deetroit.
Yikes, the DPD does in fact carry Glock 22's (though oddly enough I think they can get almost anything approved) so it very well could have been (or half of the PD's in the country, of course).

[SSN Vet]

your asked a question about firearms based on the assumption that a police officer would know one model Glock from another....

bad assumption

if it was me....I would not have made any inquiries for fear that they might put your BIL on the radar screen in the wrong way.

[CountGlockula]

http://www.yougottahire.me/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/dea.jpg

Jokes aside there's one thing to consider...IT'S A JOB and that particular officer may have been too busy with paperwork, bad guys and the politics in the agency to have a nice professional talk about guns. Plus, information may be classified. Also, it's a little proof of how much average law abiding gun owners are viewed.

[Larry Ashcraft]

This thread is over five years old.