[ronto]

The Fish & Game Commission's party line is "There are no mountain lions in this State".
Not withstanding their claims,there have been reports of more than one sighting of a mountain lion(s) about 15 miles from my very rural location.

I'm in the woods every day with my dog and the possibilty exists I may run into one. My dog (Blue Heeler) would know long before me of its presents and would give some warning. Although the lion is probably more afraid of me than I am of him and there are plenty of other selections for a meal around here other than me and/or my dog, I'd rather not bet on it if scaring him doesn't discourage him from adding me to his menu.
I carry a Ruger SP101 snubbie when in the woods with .357 Magnum Federal 158gr. HydraShoks. Is that sufficient or would another load be better?

[Bob F.]

Way more than!!!

Hounddog men out west often use .22's, I've read.

DNR here also denies mountain lions in WV. Fined a man for keeping one, went to court. Judge said: "They're not game animals, don't exist here, therefore, you have no jurisdiction: Case Dismissed!" Cat's "guardian" told me at least 5 big cats visited his with some regularity, including a black variation.
He lives in a very rural area; lots of that around here.

Stay safe.
Bob

[Thefabulousfink]

Mountain lions (AKA Cougars) are large, agile, and have sharp teeth and claws. That being said, they are about as tough as overgrown house cats.

Unlike a bear, a cougar's body is built for speed and attack, not defense. They do not have the thick bone and muscle structure that bears do, and are much less likely to shrug off a gun shot. Like house cats, cougars stalk and ambush their prey. This is what makes them dangerous because they will attack you before you know that they are there and their teeth and claws can do a lot of damage quickly. If you discover that a cougar is stalking you, confronting it is often enough to make it retreat. This happend to me when I was hunting in October, as soon as the cougar saw that I saw it, it took off running.

I know of a documented incident in CA where a cyclist saved another cyclist that had been ambushed by a cougar by hitting the cougar in the head with a rock. Cougars are like the muggers of N. American wildlife, they look for attacks of opportunity and the threat of violence is often enough to discourage them.

However, if you are ambushed or the cougar is starving, diseased, or feels threatend rember this: A cougar's skeletal structure is abour the same strength as a humans, so any pistol loading that would reliably penetrate a human will work just fine on a cougar.

Note on .22 cal: A .22 is probably enough to deter 90% of cougar encounters, and could feasably kill a cougar with proper shot placement. To kill a determined cougar, however, I would want a centerfire defensive handgun caliber. .38 special would work fine IMHO. (Edit: Reread OP, .357 is more than enough).

[Guns_and_Labs]

Hounddog men out west often use .22's, I've read.

Not the ones I know.

But .357's ARE common, and seem to do the job. So do .44 specials and 10mm's -- at least in the southwest.

[Sisco]

They say they "Don't exist" around here either but they haven't come up with a good explanation for the occasional large cat-like tracks and mutilated cattle & horses.

[_N4Z_]

They may have a glass jaw according to one of the above posters (thin skin, thin frame, etc), but pound for pound they are thee strongest predator in the USofA. Classifying them as an overgrown housecat I would say is a bit of an understatement.

And yes they are fast too, so I would recommend the loading you feel the most competent shooting accurately with.

[Kimber1911_06238]

they are seen regularly in Ny state, particulary the adirondack region...and have been even hit by cars. But the DNR refuses to acknowledge that they are present.

[ForeverArmed]

Mountain lions may be shy by nature, but they are extraordinarily rugged and have power far out of proportion to their size. We're talking about an animal that can kill an elk.

I once read about a mountain lion encounter in which six hits with .357 Mag were needed to stop the charge. That's probably very unusual, and a smaller caliber might turn an attack, but I'd want something pretty hot in my gun just to be safe. My recommendation is 125 gr Federal 357B, though the kick and blast of that load in a snubbie might make controllability a problem. It depends on what you're comfortable handling.

[Stinger]

I'd say the comparison to a house cat is fair. Both are pound-for-pound, probably the most impressive predators in the world. The are silent, fast, quick, strong, and ferocious.

Those who use .22's are shooting treed cats. Nobody in their right mind would use a .22 for defensive reasons when other choices are available. But, hey, if it's all you've got...

I have heard they can kill a dog with a single "punch" to the head. Who knows?


Stinger

[brett30030]

I knew a guy in Montana that was deer hunting, when a lion started stalking him. Apparently out there they have a motto when it comes to the big cats: "Shoot, shovel, and shut-up"

[CMcDermott]

Yeah, some of the hunters use 22 mag solids to head shoot treed cougers so they don't put any unnecessarily large holes in the cat, but that's not what you will be doing for self defense. You want quick opening hollow points to deliver maximum shock and stay inside the cat, solid cast or jacketed bullets go through the lightly built cougers so fast that the cat may not notice til after he ripped various body parts off of you.

[Jeff F]

When they hunt the big cats in Africa I believe they use soft point or expanding bullets, all other dangerous game and they use solids. For defense against a mountain kitty .38 spl HP or larger would be just fine.

[Jeff F]

When they hunt the big cats in Africa I believe they use soft point or expanding bullets, all other dangerous game and they use solids. For defense against a mountain kitty .38 spl HP or larger would be just fine.

[hceptj]

i agree with the comments above...your load is great for a mountain lion...i knew a lady in Oklahoma that raised cats (not the household kind, lol) and once she brought a young, about 1 year old, cougar to town and he was as tame as one can be (in her words) and petting it felt like fur on a rock, thats some serious muscle tone...:)

[HSMITH]

One thing you need to keep in mind, a mountain lion isn't afraid of you. It isn't afraid of your dog either. They pick when and where they fight and that is the ONLY reason they will run from you or a dog. If it wants to eat you or your dog it WILL attack, and it will probably win if it does. They rely on surprise to attack, and almost as a rule won't attack if the prey is aware of their presence. That said, stealth is their friend and they know exactly how to use it.

Your load is a good one for the lion and the gun, but don't think a lion is as fearsome of you and your dog as a black bear. It just isn't so. If it weren't for the grizzly bear the mountain lion would be the king of North American beasts.

[spooney]

Another "does not exist" state here. So what was that my buddys saw last month? If you can get shots off I wouldn't feel undergunned with a .357.

[highlander 5]

Whoever said "There more afraid of you than yo are of them" has gotta be out of his mind. Any LARGE member of the feline family is stalking me I damn well better be afraid and aware of it fast. Personally I rather have the biggest revolver I can handle preferably 44mag 300gr or 45 Colt +P same bullet weight just for the peace of mind.

[ezypikns]

and plenty of wilderness, I believe you're going to find lions.

[jibjab]

We have plenty in Oregon, though I have not seen one in my 28 years here :scrutiny: These cats are ambush hunters and there's a good chance you'll have one on your back ready to chew your neck off before you sense a cat problem. With that said, I'd opt for a round that wont knock you out when you try to shoot it off your back :D
I prefer the 1911 chambered in .45 acp :)

[rem1187a]

first off the round you are carrying should do fine. If not then put the four remaining rounds in for good measure. What is it with the DNR refusing to acknowledge cougars. Same thing here in Michigan. Even after all the pictures,some of which came from DNR officers,they still say "there is not a breeding population".trying to tell us that they keep swimming in across the lakes for a visit I guess.

[Mad Chemist]

No disrespect intended, but I've read some rather ill-informed responses within this thread. I'm no expert on big cats, but we do have more than our fair share of cougars out here in Oregon. I spend a lot of time in the woods and have been stalked by one before.

My best advice is to listen to the birds and other animals, as well as your own senses. It's highly unlikely that a you'll be attacked by a cougar unless their population is particularly dense. If the density is high enough, the younger weaker cats will be forced out of the prime hunting areas and will begin interacting more with humans, their pets, and livestock.
These animals are almost always afraid of humans and will only attack one out of sheer desperation/starvation.

In my case, all I had to do was "puff up" making myself appear larger. I made aggressive noises while slowly backing up towards my truck. The cat managed to get extremely close (within 10yds) before I noticed that the birds had gone quiet. The area I was in has seen a very recent and sudden decline in the deer populatiion.

And yes, .357 is more than enough and an SP101 in that cal is a good versatile handgun to carry in the woods IMO.
MEOW:eek: :eek:

[Wolfpackin]

There are numerous mountain lion and many more black bear here in the midst of the Colorado Rockies. I've seen mountain lion on more than one occasion and black bear frequently.
According to the local DOW director, a minimum of .40 S&W should be carried for defense in the backcountry but this is mainly due to the strength and size of the black bear not the mtn. lion.
I agree with the others that, specifically, for the lion a .357 would be more than adequate...if you even get the chance to shoot. As others have stated they are incredible predators, will stalk and attack most likely from behind and they will try to get a hold of the head and neck region of their prey. And they can indeed take down a full grown elk although they prefer smaller prey.
Human attacks from either of these animals is rare, but it does happen.
As far as the grizzly bear a .38 is known as a "Grizzly Tickler". A .45 or .50 caliber is needed for that one.

Remember: The only reason your house cat doesn't kill and eat you is because you are a LITTLE too big! :)

[Diamondback]

If one is being deliberately stalked, good luck trying to get a shot off before a cougar is all over you......make no mistake humans are at an EXTREME disadvantage in cougar country. I'm not saying don't take a gun.....I'm saying any venture into their territory is a risk. That is exactly why our forefathers pro actively went on the OFFENSIVE and eliminated them at every turn by whatever means they felt necessary......shot on sight, hunted, bountied, trapped, poisoned......families and livestock needed to be protected. Livelihoods had to be ensured ! I'm not endorsing that mind set today.....just offering some perspective.

-regards

[ArchAngelCD]

ronto,
Easy and short answer to an easy question.

Since Mountain Lions aren't very large tough skinned animals like Bear, the round you normally carry for 2 legged varmints should work very well.

[Stainz]

I'd opt for 158gr +P LHPSWC, they'd open up in the thin-skinned cats. All wild cats are similar to domestic cats - no molars, they must rip and swallow larger hunks of their food quickly, as other predators will chase them off for their 'kill'. They are 98% at rest, the remaining 2% is pure speed... watch a house cat.

One difference between domestic cats, feral or house-bound, when compared to the indigenous cats... the domestic ones are the only animal, other than man, that kills for fun... ie, not always for dinner. Watch someone's pet ravage your neighborhood - they'll get moles to squirrels, wrens to crows... usually, they will leave them where they can be seen - "Hey, look at what I got!". Feral variants are worse!

I saw one watching me from the treeline adjacent to the lower rifle range at dusk a couple of years back... probably a bobcat. He probably was more interested in the 'Happy Meal' remnants in the trash can than me, but I still kept thinking, "Why is my 296 (5-shot .44 Special) back in the truck?".It was quiet - and he did move - I just never saw or heard him do so. Still, I remember those eyes. They've even seen coyotes there - that close to Birmingham.

Yeah, I'd put some heavy lead HP's in that SP101 - and forget the .357 Magnum velocity stuff.

Stainz

[Glockfan.45]

I too live in another DNR conspriacy state. We had a cougar get hit by a train in central Illinois last year. I live in the southern half of the state and a few summers ago I was out on the back porch of my parents farm (which is out in the middle of nowhere, with massive deer population) and heard a female lion calling for a mate. Everybody out there heard it off and on for a few weeks, with multiple sightings including myself late one night. The DNR denied they were in the area. I even sent in pictures of cougar tracks we found and they still refused to confirm it. I think they know they are making a comeback and just want to keep it low profile to stem possible poaching, and hunting. As far as what round would be effective anything that works good for two legged predators would suffice on a cougar. They are not the unstopable machines that bears are. Bears are so tough to kill due to the penetration requirements needed to hit their vitals. A bear has tough thick skin with its vitals deep in its core buried under a thick layer of muscle. Cats while indeed formidable, fast, and strong are fairly fragile creatures in terms of stoping them with a bullet. I have even heard of cases where researchers have killed them with tranquilizers, from just the impact force of the dart. They have thin skin with their organs right under the surface. .38, .357, .40S&W, .45auto, even 9mm would all work well enough with a good hollow point. The mountian lions strength lies in its speed and stealth not its brawn. If you are lucky enough to get a shot off on a kitty that decides you look tasty though I assure you the gun in your hand isnt going to feel big enough at that particular moment, even the mighty .500 S&W magnum will feel small when 200+lbs of hungry, fang, muscle, and claw is comming at you.

[Sniper X]

I just love it when the fish and game departments say "that species doesn't exist here". They said that about Javalina here in NM up on the east side of the Sandia Mountians. I was up there hunting deer when one treed me for alomst three hours before I pulled the Ruger Super Blackhawk and put a round between her front feet to scare her off....she left then I left....Man, you never saw anyone drop a bow and jump up in a friggin tree so fast as me! Shoot, those Javalinas are pretty scarry!

Oh, and excuse my ignorance,....DNR state?

[Vern Humphrey]

Yes, there are mountain lions in Arkansas. I've never seen one myself, but know several people who have. One was caught in North Little Rock a few years back -- but the DNR will not accept that we have them.

I spend a lot of time riding and hiking the hills. I usually carry my Colt Woodsman and a digital camera -- if I see one, I want pictures before there's any shooting.:p

[The Lone Haranguer]

IMO the chosen loading should be more than sufficient ... if you can hit it, particularly in mid-charge, in the first place.

[Steve H]

Keep in mind that if a cougar is in a area where they normally do not live there is a very good chance the cat is looking for a new meal ticket. One reason the cats move into new areas is hunger. With that in mind, if your area is one of those "...... species doesn't exist here" areas and you have seen cat tracks be VERY careful. That cat is not there to enjoy the scenry.

[Marshall]

They're there.

I have land around lake Eufaula Oklahoma that is mountainous with deep canyons. I have personally seen them and I see their tracks quite often, usually following doe tracks. I also have Bobcats, they hunt the fawns and wounded or sick deer as well as other smaller animals. A Bobcat track will never be mistaken for a Cougar track but some of their screams will be mistaken for them and visa versa. Be aware, if eastern Oklahoma has them so does western Arkansas. I recommend 357 and up. I myself prefer a larger hole than that. They're tough animals to kill with body shots.

[Steve C]

Mountain lions (AKA Cougars) are large, agile, and have sharp teeth and claws. That being said, they are about as tough as overgrown house cats.

There was a long distance runner killed and eaten in Colorado by a cougar.

In WA my sisters father-in-law killed one when hunting deer in mid leap that was attacking him (his story) with a shot from his rifle off the hip, just point and shoot. He is a very seasoned hunter and woods wise person not given to telling lies. It was a half starved young cat that had tangled with a porcupine and was full of quils in its paws and mouth. Figured it was after him since it couldn't run down deer anymore. Said he was very lucky to see it in the first place and had just caught the swish of its tail out of the corner of his eye a 1/2 second before it attacked.

There have been people killed in CA by cougar, generally thought to be former pets that where released into the wide by their former owners. This is probably the most dangerous type for humans since a former pet most likely doesn't have the hunting skills needed by a wild animal. They're not afraid of people and when they get hungry enough they prey on what they can catch which is people and farm animals. Released pets could be found in any state.

If you see one in the wild and have the time to take a picture just make sure it doesn't circle back behind you. They're not like a bear, they won't attack to defend their territory but if they decide you are on the menu they'll stalk and attack from ambush. Its unlikely you'll see them before it too late when they're really after you.

It would be a good idea to have a gun that's manuverable enough to pull and shoot with one hand while trying to keep the cat from making their usuall bite through the neck. It would be just as good, maybe better, to bring your dog with you. They'll provide a smaller target for a hungry cougar, are more likely to detect the cat before you would.

My old family Dr. retired to Tucson and made the paper when he drove off a cougar with his walking stick that had grabbed his dog. He was just walking the dog in the undeveloped area behind his house. A more wise decision probably would have let the cat take the dog and counted himself lucky.

[yoonohoo]

Thought I would add this link to an article. Very interesting story.
http://www.wenworld.com/sub/story.php?id=1168975301-128-241

[Bri-Dog]

Numerous cougar sightings in my residential hillside area was the impetus in my buying my first firearm early last year. We had several sightings by neighbors, including by the postman on our route. Then my next door neighbor came over to tell me he had to watch as an adult cougar leapt his 6' chain link rear fence, grabbed his dog, and leapt back over to the hillside and proceeded to sit an eat his pet. He called the police-they came but refused to shoot it. The police called Animal Control, who also refused to destroy the animal. All this time, the cougar sat and enjoyed feasting on the family friend. The man from Animal Control said that people would be amazed if they new the truth, he estimated there are ~1100 wild cougar in the surrounding Verdugo Hills range! This is an LA suburb, not a rural mountain area.

Driven by desire for protection I decided I'd get just one gun to carry while walking my dogs around the hillside, I settled on a GP100 w/4" bbl in .357. I load it with Buffalo Bore's new 125 JHC. Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to get a CCW in the LA county area (in the early 90s the first CCW permit in 50 years was issued to LA's then new Police Chief Willie Williams ). So I am forced to be a law breaker in order to protect myself against a not unrealistic threat!

BTW-I have since found I have a new hobby, and just purchased my 7th handgun:D I have been buying them up as fast as the One A Month rule allows!

[SnWnMe]

I mtn bike in mtn lion country here in SoCal. The wisdom is at least a 38 carried in a place that you can get to even if you got pounced from behind (i.e. not on your backpack). There's not going to be much time for fumbling so a revolver is almost a given. I carry a 442 with +Ps. A tradeoff in weight and power IMO.

[Tbu61]

They are out there, but hide really well, (they do that for a living ya' know).

We had one just outside of Everett Washington about 10 years back.
He visited my neighborhood and got filmed by a local.

Consequently that same day, I was walking in the woods behind my house in freshly fallen snow. I doubled back on my return trip home and found Cat tracks, right next to my own...

Saw my neighbor that afternoon and his Black Lab was missing from the fenced-in back yard. I suspect Kitty had lunch.

They are stealthy predators and can be very strong, extremely fast.

[James T Thomas]

"SteveC" recommended that the handgun should be an employable type, should the puma make good his stealth attack and get you gripped while mounted on your back.

Should that happen and you have not had time to insert your earplugs, I would also recommend as a tactic that you press the muzzle firmly into the cats fur and turn your head away while you press the trigger. A longer barrel model would be suitable.
No need to press the trigger smoothly in this instance.

Try to stay off the ground to avoid richochets, and if standing and whirling around, then remember what lies behind your target.

Please excuse the cynical sense of humor. There is a web site listing fatal cougar attacks -certainly serious, and one of the encounters a man from Canada -somewhere managed to kill the cat with a pocket knife while it was clinging to him face to face! Those Canucks can be tough.

[rtl]

158gr +p .38sp or any .357 should suffice, seen the former do the job once.

[CornCod]

Haven't sighted a Mountain lion here in the Ouachita Mountains in West Central Arkansas yet. I did see a treed Leopard in Kenya once!

[Mad Chemist]

If one is being deliberately stalked, good luck trying to get a shot off before a cougar is all over you......make no mistake humans are at an EXTREME disadvantage in cougar country. I'm not saying don't take a gun.....I'm saying any venture into their territory is a risk. That is exactly why our forefathers pro actively went on the OFFENSIVE and eliminated them at every turn by whatever means they felt necessary......shot on sight, hunted, bountied, trapped, poisoned......families and livestock needed to be protected. Livelihoods had to be ensured ! I'm not endorsing that mind set today.....just offering some perspective.


Baloney, or more correctly, bologna.:cool:

[meef]

Just a large housecat....... :scrutiny:

Okay, have you ever had to deal with a really pissed-off 10-14 lb. housecat? It ain't fun!

Now figure on a cat that may weigh as much as you do and guess just who has the advantage.

Sheesh..... pussycats, indeed.

:rolleyes:

[Lone Star]

I like that .357 158 grain Hydra-Shok load and it shoots well in my guns. A Federal PR man told me that he was impressed by the way it performs on deer. I think it would be ideal for cougars.

Lone Star

[.38 Special]

Mountain lions have killed 20 people on this continent since 1890. http://www.gf.state.az.us/w_c/mtn_lion_attacks.shtml
Carry a gun to protect against this "threat" if you want, but let's not pretend that mountain lions are an ever-present menace to the backcountry traveler. :rolleyes:

[Diamondback]

Interesting responses !

-regards

[Gaucho Gringo]

A few years ago in Gresham,Ore(just east of Portland) they found mountain lion tracks on the edge of a grade school playground. Should have heard the ruckus over this finding. Having lived here for all of my 56 years on earth I can say that a lot of the places I used to go huntimg around here are now covered with houses (and they wonder why they have flooding problems in the marsh areas I used to hunt ducks every time we have lots of rain). The animals have to live somewhere and the areas with the most reported problems are those on the edges of developement where people with their dream houses have Bambi and friends eating the treats they leave for them in their backyards. Pretty soon you have a good number of deer attracted to the neighborhood and they are attracting guess what - "mountain lions". It is only natural.

I have a lovable 22lb housecat who loves to play and will jump on me every once in a while. Judging by this, I don't think having a mountain lion junp on you would be very pleasent. He keeps on bringing home his kills for us to see and judge and tell him what a good hunter he is. He is just the natural predator that he is designed to be.

[Outlaw Man]

I went to some big cat zoo out in Arizona when I was in high school. They had a show with all the different cats and one thing that I remember clearly is that they took all the cats out of the cage before they brought in the cougar. They said this was because the cougar has no natural enemies and cannot defend itself. The other cats know this, as the jaguar that was last to leave went CRAZY when it saw the cougar. It was trying to attack through the fence, just because it knew it could win despite being roughly half its size.



Of course, I can't fight like a jaguar can. I want that .357 mag.

[CZ.22]

The thing with big cats is that that lack stamina. The thing with cougars is that they tend to kill you with one bite to the neck, so, despite humans having more stamina, we often loose the fight unless we are with a partner.
A cheetah may be able to run at 70 mph, but they cant keep it up. A bear, on the other hand, can run at 35 mph for two miles. Cats don't have that much stmina.
Cougars max out at about 250 lbs, I think. Humans get a lot bigger than that.
Any .357 load should work. If you see a cougar, yell, scream, and try to make yourself big, or shoot it if it attacks, but there are two things you shouldn't do. You should a. not run and b. not try to scare it off with warning shots. Running makes the cougar think you are prey, so the give chase. As for the warning shots, an LEO once fired some at a kitty. It pissed the cat off, apparently, and it charged him. Fortunately, he had a slug-loaded 12-banger and disembowled the cat in midair with a slug.
I think that 2 humans, especially if they have knives, sticks, rocks, or even backpacks, could stand up to a cougar, as long as the cougar didnt ambush them. They could keep fighting longer than the cougar. Also, cougars are solitar, like tigers and leopards. That's the problem with lions and hyenas. They're big and social.

[Diamondback]

That's the problem with lions and hyenas. They're big and social.
.....Yeah...the original "gangst'as" of the Savannah , if you will. Nothing like a tag team.......to wear a body out ! :)

-regards

[.38 Special]

despite humans having more stamina, we often loose the fight unless we are with a partner.
"Often" meaning, of course, 20 times in the last 100 years.

Oh, and don't forget that all but a few of those were small children.

But I guess "Every five years or so, a small child gets into a fight with a cougar and most often looses, even though humans have more stamina than cougars" doesn't quite have the same ring to it. :p

[bigmedicine]

I had a chance to finish a deer this fall with a new (to me) load from Cor-Bon. Their DPX series has gotten some great reviews and the result on the deer I shot really reinforced this.

Here is a decent article on the round:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corbon%20357%20Magnum%20125%20gr%20DPX%20Ammo.htm

[Banta]

All you need is a little knife! Ok, so he got lucky (see article below) Lots of cougars where I live but the problem is even if you have a gun, they are very quick and silent if they are stalking you. They are also very strong and have been known to take moose or elk as large as 600 pounds. Still the odds are an attack is quite unlikely, but yeah, you never can be too prepared.

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/2002/cougar_attack_vancouver.html