Question on MP5's and NFA stuff


PDA






Fly320s
May 31, 2003, 06:35 PM
I am very seriously considering starting the process to buy a HK MP5 (or what resembles one for us un-chosen types).

Once I own the gun are there any restrictions on buying parts for it? I know I'll want to have spare parts and maybe different stocks available for my use, but can I also have a different trigger group? Or would that be a seperately regulated item?

One more thing... Somewhere out there on the internet I had found an excellent source of information on the MP5. It told all about the different conversions, which is better, how to inspect the gun, and other good-to-know info. Anyone have a link to that?

Thanks

If you enjoyed reading about "Question on MP5's and NFA stuff" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
SkaerE
May 31, 2003, 08:04 PM
I am very seriously considering starting the process to buy a HK MP5 (or what resembles one for us un-chosen types).

well, which are you going to do? buy a lookalike or an MP5? that will ultimately determine the rules you need to follow.

for instance.

option 1: buy an MP5

cost - $9-12K
can have a threaded barrel, collapsable stock, any trigger pack you choose.
can posses spare machine-gun parts
pay $200 tax

option 2: buy a lookalike "MP5"

you either get a HK94 for $3-4K or an SW5 for $1100 or so.
either way, no machine-gun parts allowed.
HK94 can have a threaded barrel, SW5 no.
HK94 can have a folding stock, SW5 no.

ive seen and used all 3 (MP5, HK94 and SW5) and really, i dont see a difference (at least with the SW5 i used - it had been converted to an MP5 by a class II - post dealer sample)

anyhow, either way if you want it to look like an MP5 (ie, short barrel) then you have to pay the $200 SBR tax.

to be honest, from my experiences I would either get a newer SW5 (with plastic SEF lower) or have a smith build one on an SW5 receiver then SBR it. Hell, ive seen SWAT teams that dont even have full auto - just SBR'd HK94's.

with the short barreled rifle you at least get to have the gun to use until your Form 1 (manufacture of a Class III) is approved. the machine-gun you dont get until the Form 4 (transfer of a Class III) is approved. i like my toys now.

your mileage may vary of course.

Schuey2002
May 31, 2003, 08:27 PM
One more thing... Somewhere out there on the internet I had found an excellent source of information on the MP5. It told all about the different conversions, which is better, how to inspect the gun, and other good-to-know info. Anyone have a link to that?
www.hkpro.com ? :confused:

Ian
May 31, 2003, 08:42 PM
Hkmp5sd...calling Hkmp5sd... :)

MAKOwner
May 31, 2003, 09:30 PM
Quick question about SBRs, does registering a SBR then give the ATF the right to search your home/inspect said firearm every year like with a full on Class III? Is it the same application process, fill out form, CLEO signs it, mail in with tax, wait 4+ months, etc? Just wondering. I have been thinking about either a semi auto Uzi or SW5 and going SBR with them. Seems like they'd be fun and just about ideal for home defense in a shortbarreled 9mm package... There's also the fact that they plain don't look right with a thin 16 inch barrel hanging out there or wearing a fake can which negates most of their "coolness" IMO, lol...

SkaerE
May 31, 2003, 09:33 PM
no, they cant come to inspect your house or firearms.

even with a class III dealer or class II manufacture i believe the ATF can only search their place of business/manufacture. and they have to give you 24 hrs notice.

IMO i wouldnt use an NFA weapon for home defense. if you ever had to use it, it would turn out to be a giant pain.

a good ol scattergun is the best anyhow.

Fly320s
May 31, 2003, 09:48 PM
Ok, SkaerE, if I buy a HK94 then have it converted to an SBR can I later have it converted to a subgun?

I do want the select-fire capability and the SBR style. So, I guess that narrows it down to the MP5?

Another one... is each trigger pack on an MP5 registered individually?

SkaerE
May 31, 2003, 09:58 PM
gets tricky then.

now, yes you can get an HK94 SBR it and then get a registered sear to make it a sear gun (select fire) i think the sear will probably cost you $5K or so. i dont remeber what the "going price" is right now.

the good thing about a sear is that you can take and put it in a HK94 (thereby making an MP5) an HK91 and i believe an HK93. Im fairly certain that the HK sears fit in all 3 guns.

thats fine and dandy, but if you are gonna get a sear, you might want to think about getting a $1100 SW5 and SBR'ing it then adding the sear (lets you have a threaded barrel, folding stock, and its select fire) much MUCH cheaper than buying an HK94. but if you ever take the sear out you have to convert the SW5 (called the host gun back to its postban status. (no threaded barrel, fixed stock)

i think that you also need to get other full auto parts (bolt and bolt carrier?) to convert the HK94/SW5 to an MP5 in addition to the sear. those also have to be removed with the sear.

its really a giant pain in the ???. and i dont have enough cash to feed a full auto anyhow.

like i said, i would just SBR something, but again, thats just me :)

Hkmp5sd
May 31, 2003, 10:26 PM
Hkmp5sd...calling Hkmp5sd... :D


Most MP5s are actually registered sears on converted HK-94s. In that case, the sear is what ATF considers the machinegun. The sear is generally installed into a trigger group and remains there and that is how it is transfered in the event it is sold without being part of a complete gun. With this configuration, you can own several uppers, such as the normal HK-94 (which becomes a MP5 with the trigger group) and a SP-89 (which becomes a MP5K with the trigger group).

The HK-94 upper may or may not be registered as a SBR depending on several things. A "machinegun" can have any length barrel and be any overall length. The trigger group can be "married" to the upper without it being registered as a SBR. The problem arises when you remove the trigger group and install it on another firearm, since you can then be in possession of an unregistered SBR.

And believe it or not, depending on how the firearm was registered, you can buy a "complete" MP5 sear gun that is also registered as a SBR, remove the automatic sear and sell it to another person, put a semi-automatic trigger group on your registed SBR upper and be in violation of creating a post-ban semi-automatic assault weapon. Why? Because your registered HK-94 SBR was not a fully assembled semi-automatic assault weapon on Sept. 13, 1994 and thus, cannot now be made into a pre-ban configuration.

Since this is your first NFA item, I'd recommend purchasing a "complete" machinegun instead of getting the various registered parts and putting them together. If you are looking for a small submachinegun, in addition to the MP5, you might want to look at a registered Uzi or Mac 10/11. I think you can still pick up a Cobray M11/9 for around $1,500. Throw on a barrel extension and vertical foregrip and you have a halfway decent subgun.

As for spare parts, ATF is very, very picky about that subject. For example, I own an M16A1 and an AR-15. They have decided that by having both, if I were to possess any spare M16 parts, I am in fact in possession of an unregistered machinegun. This is even if the parts are not installed on the AR and even if I don't have all of the parts necessary to convert the AR.

SkaerE
May 31, 2003, 10:40 PM
you might want to look at a registered Uzi or Mac 10/11. I think you can still pick up a Cobray M11/9 for around $1,500. Throw on a barrel extension and vertical foregrip and you have a halfway decent subgun.

ive seen uppers and stocks for the M10 or M11 that make it into a formidable subgun. one that can out preform many more expensive weapons.

hell, ive seen one upper for the M10 (or M11) that essentially converts it into a SAW. (squad automatic weapon) from what i remeber it was quite pricey.

if i was set on getting a real subgun, i'd probably get an M16 w/9mm upper. you cant beat the M16 for being the most versitile Class III weapon. 223 uppers, 9mm uppers, 22lr upper (which i would love, cause im cheap :)) you can get a M16 lower reciever (the registered part) for about $6K or so, less if you shop around and are patient.

or an UZI, very nice and about 1/3 the price of a MP5.

Hkmp5sd
May 31, 2003, 10:42 PM
:)

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Oct/20021021223423731369616.jpg

SkaerE
May 31, 2003, 10:46 PM
i have seen that one before, but its not the one im talking about. the one im talking about is made by a local class II around here. its very nice, and very accurate.

Hkmp5sd
May 31, 2003, 11:00 PM
http://www.brpguns.com/images/41801test.jpg

SkaerE
May 31, 2003, 11:27 PM
nice, but unless its something less expensive like 8mm i'd have to pass.

Destructo6
May 31, 2003, 11:37 PM
You really need to read the article on HK NFA conversions that is at the bottom of HKPRO's main page. It's a reprint from Small Arms Review that was originally done in 3 parts. It covers just about everything.

You'd probably have a hard time finding a transferable HK sear separate from a gun these days.

444
June 1, 2003, 12:25 AM
"Quick question about SBRs, does registering a SBR then give the ATF the right to search your home/inspect said firearm every year like with a full on Class III? Is it the same application process, fill out form, CLEO signs it, mail in with tax, wait 4+ months, etc? "

It doesn't look like anyone answered all of this; The only difference in the application process is that you do a Form 1. The rest of it is the same. CLEO sign off, fingerprints, photos, wait. After you get your tax stamp you then may buy the parts for the SBR or at least assemble them into an SBR.
Anyone please feel free to correct me or add to this; I have never registered an SBR but this is how I understand the proceedure.

One other thing; and again, please correct me if this is wrong but I believe you have to have a pre-ban lower to register it as an SBR ? Or is that only to add a suppressor ?

I would really like to know all this because I would like to register two carbines as SBRs and probably suppress at least one of them. Both are pre-ban rifles; one is a Colt Lightweight Sporter in 9mm, the other an Oly 5.56 carbine. I read what I could find on the net, printed out the Form 1 complete with all my information but never went ahead with it because I am not completely sure of all the ins and outs.

SkaerE
June 1, 2003, 01:02 AM
must be preban to have a suppressor or threaded barrel. post ban SBR's are fine.

file your Form 1, pay the tax wait to be approved.

chop off the barrel. engrave your info on it somewhere (as the manufacturer of the class III weapon)

its fairly simple.

in fact, you can get a SW5 variant that has a short barrel with a tack welded on "suppressor" (its fake) you can file the Form 1 and once its approved, just grind off the tack weld and all of a sudden you have made a class III weapon. in fact, that SW5 has a 3 lug barrel, just like the MP5. you just cant suppress it because its post ban.

clear as mud eh?

Tamara
June 1, 2003, 01:11 AM
Are you going to go through Craig's or Gunsha.. er, Guncraft?

Either one will happily hold your hand through the process.

If you go to either, tell 'em I sent you.

444
June 1, 2003, 01:54 AM
Thanks, any further info would be appreciated. I have the forms all printed out, filled out, photos, and fingerprints; all I need are the CLEO signatures. I am tempted to just do the suppresor at the same time but I don't want to go overboard. This will be the third time I have been in there which would be a total of five different signoffs not counting the additional suppressor (s).

SkaerE
June 1, 2003, 10:10 AM
it was recommended to me, and i will do the same to you, that you stagger your form 1's and form 4's about 1 month apart. it spreads out the $200 tax for each, making it easier on the wallet and you get a steady bunch of toys throughout the next couple of months.

Hkmp5sd
June 1, 2003, 12:11 PM
One other thing; and again, please correct me if this is wrong but I believe you have to have a pre-ban lower to register it as an SBR ? Or is that only to add a suppressor ?

Technically, it has to be a complete pre-ban rifle with enough evil features to be classified as an AW. A pre-ban lower or a preban rifle not assembled as an AW in '94 cannot have the threaded barrel/suppressor. (I'll be glad when we get rid of this garbage next year!)

FWIW, on guns like the HK-94 that you want to convert to the integral suppressed MP5SD, you can do the Form 4 as a SBR/Suppressor at the same time and same form, saving $200.

You can do the same by including an integral suppressor in the 9mm AR upper.

AK103K
June 1, 2003, 12:17 PM
444,
If you have questions, I would contact your local ATF office. I've dealt with mine over the years and they were always very helpful and always got me an answer. Only call DC as a last resort as they tend to be the ones who are lost. I would call and make an appointment and go down in person and talk to someone. This way if you have any other questions in the future, you can always call and ask for that person and they will at least know you and it makes it easier. Lot less run around and you have your own "personal agent" :)
Dont let the fact that the big glass double doors to their offices are locked and you need to be buzzed in bother you. They are more paranoid than we are. :)

SkaerE
June 1, 2003, 12:20 PM
FWIW, on guns like the HK-94 that you want to convert to the integral suppressed MP5SD, you can do the Form 4 as a SBR/Suppressor at the same time and same form, saving $200.

You can do the same by including an integral suppressor in the 9mm AR upper.

well, sort of. i believe for it to be an integral, it isnt a SBR anyhow. it has a short barrel, but if the length of the barrel/suppressor combo is over 16'' and you cant remove the suppressor then it isnt a short barreled rifle. if you can remove it, you need to have it registered as a SBR as well (and pay the other $200 tax)

either way, has to be a preban weapon.

i also have a problem with the way this is worded:

And believe it or not, depending on how the firearm was registered, you can buy a "complete" MP5 sear gun that is also registered as a SBR, remove the automatic sear and sell it to another person, put a semi-automatic trigger group on your registed SBR upper and be in violation of creating a post-ban semi-automatic assault weapon. Why? Because your registered HK-94 SBR was not a fully assembled semi-automatic assault weapon on Sept. 13, 1994 and thus, cannot now be made into a pre-ban configuration.

as far as i know, ALL HK94's are preban and were complete rifles before the ban. The weapon did not have to be a AW on the day of the ban, just before it.

and definitly take AK's advice and call and talk to the ATF agent. they should know whats going on. :rolleyes:

444
June 1, 2003, 01:14 PM
HK: What is an AW ?


I don't know if it is nessessary to talk to ATF about this, it seems straightforward but of course, I may be missing something. One thing that makes this SBR issue a problem is that since you not going through a dealer, you don't have anyone to answer your questions. I don't feel right talking to a dealer when he knows I am not buying anything. I did go to the local ATF office to get fingerprint cards for my subgun. It had more security than the airport. They had guards at the door. I had to give them a reason why I was there and who I talked to about it. They then called that person who appearently said it was OK to let me in. I then went through a metal detector. When I got to the second floor, the person came out of a locked office with the fingerprint cards and I was never allowed to enter their office-this all took place in the hall.
A friend of mine is currently buying an American 180. This is his first purchase and he called the local ATF office and asked to talk to an agent. They told him that since this office covers a wide geographical area and since the agents were so busy, it would be highly unlikely that he be able to talk to an agent in any reasonable period of time.

As far as staggering the purchases, this really wouldn't be nessessary. I got the subgun already. I ordered two suppressed .22s and have the paperwork ready for when they come in. The only remaining thing right now is the SBRs and possibly the suppressors. I would like to have both so that I can switch out the suppressed upper with a short upper, so it appears to me that I would have to register the receiver as an SBR, and then also register the suppressors ?

SkaerE
June 1, 2003, 01:22 PM
AW = "Assault weapon" according to the 1994 ban.

the best place on the web to ask specific questions is probably here:

www.subguns.com

i think many of the regulars that post there know more about the ATF's rules than the ATF does. :D

go to the message boards and then to NFA discussion. you can post a question and it will be generally be answered in a matter of minutes-hours.

the reason i send you there is because im not really sure about the SBR receiver thing. im not sure if its "ok" to swap one short barrelled upper to another or if as a SBR it needs to retain the registered upper.

i am sure that the suppressor needs to be registered as such (a suppressor)

Hkmp5sd
June 1, 2003, 01:28 PM
well, sort of. i believe for it to be an integral, it isnt a SBR anyhow. it has a short barrel,

My MP5SD integrally suppressed upper is registered on a Form 4 as a Short Barreled Rifle/Suppressor.

as far as i know, ALL HK94's are preban and were complete rifles before the ban. The weapon did not have to be a AW on the day of the ban, just before it.

Nope. ATF has even ruled that if a pre-ban, grandfathered assault weapon with all applicable features legally possessed on 9/13/94 that has been disassembled and all parts with the exception of the receiver are sold to another person, that receiver cannot be assembled back into a pre-ban AW. It would now be a post-ban assault weapon.

Not only does the firearm have to been assembled into a complete assault weapon configuration on the effective date, it must have retained that configuration to this date. It can be disassembled and made into other configurations as long as all the parts of the preban AW are retained by the owner and it can be returned to a preban condition.

So an HK-94 upper with a registered trigger group cannot be made back into a pre-ban semi-automatic HK-94 with collapsible buttstock, threaded barrel or other evil features causing it to fall under the definition of an semi-automatic assault weapon.


444: "semi-automatic assault weapon" as currently defined by our federal government.

As for contacting ATF, the best way to do that is to send a written letter to their Technical Branch stating everything you have and want to do and get their reply in writing. They deal with this stuff every day and the local ATF agent may not be fully up to speed on all of the ins and outs.

Hkmp5sd
June 1, 2003, 01:35 PM
im not sure if its "ok" to swap one short barrelled upper to another or if as a SBR it needs to retain the registered upper.

That depends on how many lowers you own. I have an M16A1 with a 14.5" Bushmaster upper which is not registered (nor required to be) as a SBR. ATF has decided that since I also own an AR-15, if I own TWO 14.5" uppers, I am actually in possession of ONE unregistered SBR since it can be readily installed on my AR.

444
June 1, 2003, 01:38 PM
"the reason i send you there is because im not really sure about the SBR receiver thing. im not sure if its "ok" to swap one short barrelled upper to another or if as a SBR it needs to retain the registered upper."

I don't know either, but one comment. As far as I know, the lower is registered as an SBR; it is the serial numbered item. None of my AR uppers have a serial number. Of course none of them are SBR uppers either, so this may change things. I know that I have to engrave information on the gun once it is registered as an SBR, and I was under the impression that the information is engraved on the lower. I did ask my local dealer some questions about this subject and he told me that once the reciever is registered as an SBR, you can put any upper you want on it. Both of these carbines are pre-ban with all the evil features. Well, no, I guess the 9mm doesn't have a bayonet lug. But, it was my understanding that I could register these carbines as SBRs and I could also return them to original condition by changing the upper and be OK. He even said I could sell the carbine as a regular civilian pre-ban carbine if returned to original condition. I believe this is similar to your M16. I believe I am correct in saying that you can put any upper you want on your registered lower ?

This subject seems to have many nuances that raise a lot of questions. Maybe I should talk to ATF.

SkaerE
June 1, 2003, 01:54 PM
aparantly i stand corrected.

man, these rules change more often than the tides.

they really should get their act together.

oh well, one last thing to say...

VOTE and LET YOUR CONGRESSMAN KNOW YOU WANT THEM TO VOTE AGAINST ANY NEW BAN! at least then we can get rid of a lot of these worthless "rules"

Hkmp5sd
June 1, 2003, 02:11 PM
I believe I am correct in saying that you can put any upper you want on your registered lower ?

Yes. That is why I can remove the A1 upper and install a 14.5" upper on my M16A1 lower without registering it as a SBR.

If you make a SBR from semi- AR, the way to do it is register the upper as a SBR instead of registering the "rifle" as a SBR. This is done by adding a serial number on the upper and doing the Form 1.

Hopefully, this will all be academic in about a year, but if you take a preban AR and convert it (or it's upper) to a SBR, make sure you keep enough evil features that it is still considered an "assault weapon." This will allow you to return it to a semi-automatic AW if they do extend the ban next year.

It is technically possible to convert a pre-ban AW into a registered SBR that is does not fall under the assault weapon ban. If you then wanted to add a suppressor to the registered SBR, you would be in violation of manufacturing a post-ban semi-automatic assault weapon.

(Man, I hate this stuff. A gun is a gun.)

444
June 1, 2003, 02:32 PM
You lost me on that one.
Why would you want to register the upper ? This would eliminate your ability to put whatever upper you want on the lower ?

If I register a pre-ban as an SBR, I have to put a flash suppressor, or bayonet lug on the upper to have it remain an AW ? Or I guess I could leave the collapsable stock on it and this would still be an AW ?

I thought if I added a suppressor to a pre-ban registered SBR I would still be OK ?

Hkmp5sd
June 1, 2003, 03:08 PM
Sorry. :) If the upper is a registered SBR, like the one on my MP5, you can put any lower on it your desire and own as many lowers you want without gettng bit by having enough parts to assemble an unregistered firearm. Just makes life a little easier if you want to have several different configurations.

Your ARs are now configured pre-ban assault weapons. Keep them configured that way. If you chop your upper off, just go ahead and thread the barrel. That is enough for it to keep your pre-ban AR classified as an assault weapon and you'll also be ready to add a suppressor later on.

I thought if I added a suppressor to a pre-ban registered SBR I would still be OK ?

Only if the pre-ban registered SBR was also configured as a pre-ban assault weapon. In other words, just because an AR receiver was made before 1994, it isn't automatically a pre-ban assault weapon. The same applies to a SBR that was registered prior to 1994. Even with the short barrel, if it didn't have the evil features before 1994, it cannot have them added now.

444
June 1, 2003, 03:19 PM
The problem is that I don't really see the need to try different lowers with my upper. With the AR, I can change stocks at will. The cool thing to me would be the ability to change uppers. Have one that is a real short flat top with a RAS II and all the bling bling, one that is a 14.5 M4 knockoff, and one that is suppressed while all the while being able to put my 16" upper back on it if I want.
I never considered the problem of having extra uppers lying around that could be considered unregistered SBRs though. I wonder if it would be playing with fire to have multiple 9mm uppers and only one 9mm lower. Technically you could put the uppers on a 5.56 lower, but you would also have to have a mag block to actually fire it. Crap, this might not be worth it if I have to stick with one upper for the lower.
On the 5.56 I could get by if I had one short upper and one suppressed upper since the suppressor would be registed itself, although I suppose in order to do that, the suppressor would have to be permenent because once you removed it, you would now have multiple SB uppers once again.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Hkmp5sd
June 1, 2003, 03:32 PM
Look at it this way. You own two preban ARs. You register one AR as a SBR and chop off the barrel. Later on, you buy a <16" 9mm upper to use on your registered SBR AR receiver. You now have 2 uppers <16" and one normal AR-15 rifle.

According to ATF, you are now in possession to TWO SBRs simply because you have enough short barreled uppers to convert both of your ARs into SBRs at the same time.

444
June 1, 2003, 03:52 PM
Ok, I went in and took a shower and thought this over. You were saying the same thing all along and I couldn't punch in.

A) If I register two AR lower receivers as SBRs, buy numerous short uppers for them, I will then be in possession of unregistered SBRs since I also own other normal ARs.

B) If I register the uppers, then I can't have a problem because then the upper can legally go on any lower.

So, now that I got that, I see this isn't much worse than it was to begin with. I was planning on spending $400 in tax stamps for two SBRs, plus possibly another $400 in two tax stamps for two suppressors. So, if I bought one 9mm upper with a 10" barrel and all the trick stuff on it including a bi-lock, I could have pretty much everything I wanted. Or, I could buy that upper and a 9mm upper with an integral suppressor and still be legal. Then I could do the same with a 5.56 upper and be legally good to go.

Now, this brings up another thing. The evil features of an AW include the lower. How would I construct an upper so that it is still classified as an AW ? I guess there are only two things that make an upper an AW; flash suppressor, and a bayonet lug. If either is present, it is an AW, so that shouldn't be a problem either.

Then I assume that since I need to engrave a serial number etc. to the registered item, the way to go with be to engrave the actual upper receiver itself and not the barrel. That way, if I really wanted to change things drastically, I could unscrew the barrel, or remove any other part and the receiver is still the registered part.

Thank you for putting up with all this. I don't know why I didn't see this from the beginning. Or maybe I do :uhoh:

Then there is always the option of simply buying a full auto lower and then I could have any barrel I wanted. And then get a suppressor.
No, I bought these two carbines I have now with the idea of doing this, I don't need a third gun to add to the mix.
Hey, here is another question. How does all this work with a registered auto-sear ? If you put the auto sear in the gun, can you now also have a short barrel ? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Hkmp5sd
June 1, 2003, 04:14 PM
I think I screwed that last one up a little bit. I keep thinking a full auto lower. Sorry about that.

Until you throw an autosear into the mix, you are perfectly fine registering your AR as a SBR and chopping the upper.

If you only own one AR, you can register it as a SBR and have as many different short barreled uppers as you desire. If you own two ARs, one of which is registered as a SBR, you can only have one short barreled upper in your possession. If you want more than one short barreled upper, simply register your other AR as a SBR. After that, you are back to being allowed as many short barreled uppers as you desire.

As for the pre-ban status, the receiver has a detachable magazine and pistol grip. That means it must have at least one other evil feature to be an AW. If your pre-ban AW is a pre-ban because it has a threaded barrel and flash suppressor, if you create a SBR using it, cut down the barrel, but also thread barrel. That retains the pre-ban configuration.

Fly320s
June 1, 2003, 04:53 PM
Wow! :what:

Ok, I finished reading all 32 pages of the MP5 NFA info from HK Pro and then I read this. I think I strained my brain.

Questions for HKmp5sd:

According to the info I read, the best MP5 (HK94 or 93 or 89 or 91) to buy would be the push pin receiver type that has been registered as a MG (opposed to a registered sear or kit). Does that sound correct? I'm sure this variety is expensive, but are they available?

If I go through with this, I would like to buy a fully complete SMG instead of having one chopped and registered.

Tamara:

I talked to someone (Greg?) at Guncraft but I will probably look around for other help. I've fired their MP5 but otherwise I think they are a little pricey.

Thanks for all the info, everyone. I can fly airplanes, but I have no chance of navigating through all these NFA laws solo.

Fly320s
June 1, 2003, 05:04 PM
Some more things to consider. I came up with these preferences for my SMG:

1. Registered push pin receiver so I can change trigger groups when I want and buy factory new parts as needed.

2. Short barrel with three prong feature for attachments.

Is the above possible, legally? How much?

Now, about AR15 9mm uppers and suppressors and other goodies... I'll save those for later discussions.

444
June 1, 2003, 06:02 PM
Fly, sorry for sidetracking your thread. I hope we all are learing something and I wasn't just a nuisance. Unfortunately I have yet more questions on this subject.

My problem is that I own nine AR15s, so the issue of having extra uppers is in fact an issue.
Are you saying now that I should register the lowers and not the uppers ?
The third evil feature I was thinking about was the collapsable stock, but then none of the features are present on the upper. So, I would have to have a flash suppressor I guress.

Fly320s
June 1, 2003, 06:21 PM
No need to apologize, 444. I have just as many questions as you do I'm sure.

After we clear up this cloudy issue we can tackle suppressors, 9mm uppers on AR15s, and all kinds of other goodies.

Hkmp5sd
June 1, 2003, 07:32 PM
the best MP5 (HK94 or 93 or 89 or 91) to buy would be the push pin receiver type that has been registered as a MG (opposed to a registered sear or kit). Does that sound correct? I'm sure this variety is expensive, but are they available?

That is correct. They also cost more money than a sear gun. If you can find one that you are willing to cough up the money for, do it. The sear guns, as long as they function properly, are still good conversions, they just aren't the absolute best that's available.

The third evil feature I was thinking about was the collapsable stock

That's good enough. As long as you have a minimum of two evil features on the rifle, it is an assault weapon. Just make sure the firearm always has at least some combination of those evil features. Most likely, this is a non-issue. The ban may go away next year, but even if it doesn't, there is virtually no chance anyone will ever bring up the subject in regard to your pre-ban ARs. The whole topic is essentially letters written to Technical Branch and their responses. I haven't heard of any actual cases where ATF has declared an actual firearm contriband because of this.

Are you saying now that I should register the lowers and not the uppers ?

Nine ARs! That's impressive! After pondering your situation, it doesn't really matter. Each AR upper <16" you possess will have to be registered, whether it is the upper by itself or it's registered as one of your existing ARs. If you purchase a registered sear to install in one of your ARs, that AR can have a <16" upper that is not registered as a SBR as long as the sear is installed.

444
June 1, 2003, 09:34 PM
Hold on now. If I register the uppers as SBRs then I can put them on any one of the nine lowers and be legal. I also can't be accused of having an unregistered SBR because only the uppers are registered. Whether or not it is on a rifle it is still a registered SBR. In other words, there is no way to run afoul of the law. But if I registered any less than all the lowers, then it is always possible to run afoul of the law becuase there is always the possiblity that I could put the short upper on an unregistered lower.

Actually, on second look, I think that is what you said. And, I could register four uppers for the same money I was planning on spending anyway.

They autosear was just a hypothetical situation. I have almost no interest in full auto stuff. I would like to have an M16 just because, but would never fire it full auto. I have a subgun now that I think I took out to shoot twice. It isn't my thing. I love accuracy.

TheLastBoyScout
June 1, 2003, 10:41 PM
SkaerE I remember seeing the add in SGN, that beltfed is in fact available in 8mm Mauser. I'm not sure if thats the only chambering though.

Hkmp5sd
June 2, 2003, 06:14 AM
Actually, on second look, I think that is what you said. And, I could register four uppers for the same money I was planning on spending anyway.

That's what a guy I know did. He has an M16 and a post-ban HBAR AR for competetion. He has 3 uppers for the M16 that are all considered "pre-ban" configured and two are <16". He registered the two as SBRs so that he could not be hit with having an unregistered SBR OR a post-ban assault weapon due to his post-ban AR.

As long as you have 1 of your 9 ARs registered as a SBR for each <16" upper you own, you are safe.

P226
June 2, 2003, 07:13 PM
Ok i am lost here.

I thought you had to register the receiver(on a ar-15 the lower)
as the sbr,not the upper(barrel).I have just sent in the paper work to sbr a pre-ban ar-15(may 22)semi-auto only and was told by the CIII
dealer to give the same serial # that is on the lower,and when i get the form 1 back he will stamp the lower with the name,city,state and sell me the sbr upper(11.5).There are no serial numbers on a ar-15 upper,so how would you register it???
Thanks for any help on this.

Hkmp5sd
June 2, 2003, 08:28 PM
The way I understand how the guy I talked to did it, he bought the parts to make the upper except for the barrel (because he had other ARs). He assigned it a serial number and filled out a form 1 stating he was manufacturing an AR SBR. When the form 1 was approved, he bought the barrel and installed it in the upper. Since he couldn't possess all of the parts to make a SBR until the form 1 came back approved, he didn't need the lower during the registration process.

When I "made" my MP5, I already owned the registered full-auto trigger group. I had a Class III manufacturer make the SBR/Suppressed upper from a Hk-94 upper. It was made, registered and transfered to me without having a trigger group (lower) attached.

Both of these occured during the mid-80s. They may no longer allow that, so if that is the route someone wants to take, they should contact ATF Technical Branch first. The individual I talked to made his 2nd SBR upper in '95, so they were still doing it at that point.

P226
June 2, 2003, 11:26 PM
I think this is where things are different.

"When I "made" my MP5, I already owned the registered full-auto trigger group. I had a Class III manufacturer make the SBR/Suppressed upper from a Hk-94 upper. It was made, registered and transfered to me without having a trigger group (lower) attached"

I believe the upper is the registered receive on the HK 90 series.
So you would register the upper "barrel" of the HK94.The trigger
group would then be the registered machine gun or Sear.This would allow you to move the trigger group to a different gun say a Hk53 and still have a legal hk94 sbr.If the HK 53 is also a sbr you could have one full auto trigger group and one semi- trigger group and 2 sbr registered uppers.
On the ar-15 your registered lower is the sbr not the upper.This is were ATF has tried to get people with more then one ar-15 and more then one sbr upper say a 11.5 .223 and a 10" 9mm.Saying you have two sbr's and only one is registered,even if they are used only on the one lower,because it is so easy to change upper's on the ar-15.

Hkmp5sd
June 3, 2003, 07:23 AM
P226,

That is quite possible. After all, these are the guys that say, "once a machinegun, always a machinegun," yet claim a pre-ban AW can lose preban status, yet claim a shotgun receiver that had a shoulder stock attached for 30 seconds can never be made into an AOW.

If I can pry myself away from Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, I think I'll send ATF a letter and ask them about the whole deal and get a written answer. Be nice to know, one way or the other.

Fly320s
June 3, 2003, 10:18 PM
So just what is a person waiting for after sending in the forms and money? Is it a background check or just having the official approval?

P226
June 3, 2003, 10:28 PM
Both
You send in 2 passport photo's and two set's of fingerprints and
then you wait for the form to come back.that's the official approval/background check.If you are doing a short barrel rifle,that's all you need to either cut the barrel or in my case go buy a new shorter upper for my ar-15.

444
June 3, 2003, 10:44 PM
Yes, but to answer your question exactly, you are waiting on the same form you sent them to come back with a tax stamp on the upper right side. It looks just like a postage stamp.

The first time I did this, I had no idea what I was going to get back and was kind of surprised that it was the same form I sent them with that stamp. I had always heard the term "tax stamp" but didn't realize that it was in fact, just like a postage stamp.

Fly320s
June 5, 2003, 11:18 PM
OK, time to carry it to the next level.

Can anyone recommend a reputable person/dealer to walk me through the process? I'm in eastern TN, but I imagine most of the question/answer session and search process can be done via e-mail and the internet.

This is what I would like:

1. MP5 style SMG.
- I prefer having a registered receiver (as opposed to a sear) so I can exchange trigger packs as I desire as well as buy factory new parts as needed.

2. Three lug barrel for future suppressor attachment.

3. Solid stock.

I've searched many ads on the net, but I'd prefer to go through a knowledgeable broker.

So, who do you trust?

If you enjoyed reading about "Question on MP5's and NFA stuff" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!