Ontario Midnight Bowie


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JohnnyRockets
January 21, 2007, 04:50 PM
I ordered a Midnight Bowie from Knifeworks and it was shipped very quickly and the knife is everything they said it would be - it's even quite sharp. Unfortunately they did not sharpen the false edge. It seems like an inconvenience that I spent over $160. and now I have to figure out how to get the false edge sharpened.

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Rupestris
January 21, 2007, 05:26 PM
Check local laws. Some states do not allow the carry of knives with sharpened spines/daggers.

If you don't plan on carrying then go ahead. Otherwise, check the regs.

cs

JohnnyRockets
January 21, 2007, 06:08 PM
I wonder if it's almost as good a fighter without the false edge? I plan on keeping the knife in the house. Do those "non dagger/dirk" type laws usually apply to what you keep in your home too, or just what you carry around?

hso
January 21, 2007, 07:21 PM
Unfortunately they did not sharpen the false edge.

Important tip - no manufacturer sharpens the swedge.

Fred Fuller
January 21, 2007, 07:43 PM
JR,

There's no substitute for checking your local laws. Many southeastern states specifically outlaw carrying Bowie knives by name... Legislators back in the day knew how effective it was as a weapon.

Not long after I left USAJFKSWCS at Ft. Bragg to go back to work on Main Post, they had Bill Bagwell (who designed your knife for Ontario) come in to teach knife fighting with Bowies to some of the Special Forces students who were in school at SWC. The 'brass' was so impressed with what they saw that they wanted to classify Bagwell's training...

http://www.paladin-press.com/authormo_1000.aspx

"Today Bagwell focuses his knife energies on his "Hell's Belle" fighting Bowies. The Hell's Belle is acknowledged by many to be the finest fighting Bowie knife ever made, and those examples hand-forged and made by Bagwell himself are, without a doubt, in a class by themselves. Bagwell's research and studies into tactics and application of the fighting Bowie knife in a combat environment have not gone unnoticed, and he currently serves as an instructor to selected units of the U.S. Army's Special Forces at Ft. Bragg, North Carolina."

lpl/nc
========================

NC CODE SUBCHAPTER IX. OFFENSES AGAINST THE PUBLIC PEACE.
Article 35.
Offenses Against the Public Peace.
14-269. Carrying concealed weapons.
(a)It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and
intentionally to carry concealed about his person any bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slung shot, loaded cane, metallic knuckles, razor, shurikin, stun gun, or other deadly weapon of like kind, except when the person is on the person's own premises.

Soap
January 21, 2007, 08:02 PM
Important tip - no manufacturer sharpens the swedge.

Sad but true. But do you have any insight as to why they don't?

hso
January 21, 2007, 09:49 PM
But do you have any insight as to why they don't?

Some states do not allow the carry of knives with sharpened spines/daggers.

Actualy, almost every state has laws on the books against daggers and most states have jurisdictions that interpret any knife with 2 edges, even a partial second edge, to meet their definition of a dagger. As such, most manufacturers don't make knives with more than one side sharpened so that sales of their product are not impacted.

hksw
January 21, 2007, 11:36 PM
Important tip - no manufacturer sharpens the swedge.

Huh. Randall (http://www.randallknives.com/catalog.php?action=viewcategory&catalogcategories_id=5) still sharpens the clip edge of their bowie-styled knives.

I've rarely seen, however, larger bowie-types like the Midnight Bowie or CS Trailmaster or others where the blade is 9" or more with a sharpened swedge.

hso
January 22, 2007, 12:39 PM
Randall isn't a "manufacturer". They're dealing with a completely different clientel than Ontario, Camillus or Cold Steel.

Soap
January 22, 2007, 01:28 PM
Actualy, almost every state has laws on the books against daggers and most states have jurisdictions that interpret any knife with 2 edges, even a partial second edge, to meet their definition of a dagger. As such, most manufacturers don't make knives with more than one side sharpened so that sales of their product are not impacted.

Hm. I didn't realize so many states had laws against the double edge. I guess I'm spoiled since the only thing I can't carry in Indiana is a "Chinese Throwing Star"! :rolleyes:

El Tejon
January 22, 2007, 01:47 PM
Dan, you don't have to worry because you are Mexican.:neener: :D

Laws against daggers and dirks are popular in the South. The fear of Blacks and drunken brawling among lower class Whites was the concern as higher class White could afford firearms to defend themselves (some Southern states forbade inexpensive guns and mandated only Army/Navy guns).

mp510
January 22, 2007, 03:36 PM
El Tejon wrote:
Laws against daggers and dirks are popular in the South. The fear of Blacks and drunken brawling among lower class Whites was the concern as higher class White could afford firearms to defend themselves (some Southern states forbade inexpensive guns and mandated only Army/Navy guns).

We also have laws against them up here, in Connecticut- which has a repuation for being progressive, especially on race matters. No daggers, dirks, stilletos, or autos over 1.5", or knives that have a blade, the edged portion of which is greater than 4" in length outside your place of adobe. A few years ago, they started allowing >4" edged single edge for legal hunting, fishing, and trapping activities. Until a couple years ago, the sale of dangerous weapons had to be reported to the CLEO in the purchasers town of residence as well.

hso
January 22, 2007, 04:28 PM
ElT,

Not to get all Southern on ya'll or anythang, but a quick look at knife laws across the country shows prohibitions on carrying "daggers" in Michigan, Colorado, Kansas, Idaho and Iowa. That doesn't include the states that just ban carry of anything that isn't a "pocketknife" thereby catching all those nasty knives like dirks, daggers, bowies, etc.

Then there's the municipal laws that ban knives the state doesn't get. Phoenix bans daggers even though AZ doesn't. San Antonio bans locking blades even though the state of TX doesn't.

Zero_DgZ
January 22, 2007, 04:36 PM
Sad but true. But do you have any insight as to why they don't?

There are many anti "dirk/dagger" laws on the books, one in nearly every state. This nonsense arose from hysterical fear of Germanic anarchists/terrorists in the runup to WW2, if I remember correctly, and as usual the powers that be saw fit to outlaw a bunch of inanimate objects instead of doing something to go after the perpetrators of the expected atrocities (which in this case never actually happened, really). This is the same reason "switchblades" are outlawed in so many places (hysterical fear of gang violence in the '50s) and why "saturday night specials" are outlawed (hysterical fear of gang violence in the '70s) and why butterfly knives and nunchaku are outlawed (hysterical fear of... ninjas?) among other pointless prohibitions.

Mike Sastre
January 24, 2007, 07:26 AM
The Ontario Midnight tends to have the least sharp of the lot (because of coating), but all the Ontario Bagwells (except spearpoint) have a sharpened false edge, or are supposed to. The CS Laredos also have sharpened false edges. The sharpened false edge is used for Backcuts, which is a lot of what Bill Bagwell was teaching the SF guys. However, the false edge doesn't need to be razor sharp to be effective with a Backcut. In fact a stock CS Trailmaster will Backcut nicely. As long as the point has a little "uptick" to it, it'll act like a talon, and then it's just a physics thing. Penetrate in, rend out.

El Tejon
January 24, 2007, 08:04 AM
hso, as Southerners left the South for more favorable economic conditions, they brought their culture with them. The laws that were passed against them in the South, were copied by the North to attempt to control their love of recreational violence. Thomas Sowell's Black Rednecks and White Liberals details the cultural distinctions during the last Southern immigration and Northern policy responses (the book opens with a diatribe about the new immigrants in a letter to the editor in an Indianapolis newspaper). The city in which I grew up next to, Speedway, Indiana, passed an ordinance forbidding concealing of pistols because of this immigration after WWII. I still remember my father having to take off his jacket when we went somewhere in Speedway.

In addition, Stephan Halbrook did a solid job of detailing antebellum Southern laws against these weapons in That Every Man Be Armed. He details the motivation of these laws as well.

It started as a Southern thing, but hysteria about inert pieces of metal is an unfortunate national mental defect.:(

Soap
January 24, 2007, 01:44 PM
Dan, you don't have to worry because you are Mexican.

Oh yeah! I forgot that I was a "Mexican" in Indiana! ;) Maybe I should commit crimes and see if I qualify for immediate deportation, preferably to the Mexican Riveria :p

Sniper X
January 24, 2007, 04:34 PM
I asked an old cop why they had a law against only "switchblades" or "daggers or dirks" here in the state of New Mexico. He was a Chicano and said "it is because of all the damn Pachucos!" He also told me that back in the 40-60s every cop had a "confiscated switchblade" tucked in his sock or boot for backup last ditch defense purposes. Cool guy with a lot of neat stories!

poilu
January 28, 2007, 06:40 AM
my cold steel laredo bowie came with a sharpened swedge and l'm guessing that their new natchez bowie does too. on request, entrek sharpened the swedge one of their fighters for me and mineral mountain hatchet works said they'd sharpen the swedge on any of their bowies for me.

hso
January 28, 2007, 09:37 AM
ElT,

Ok, this one's turned interesting.

I'm understandably confused. Switchblades were outlawed in various states in response to the perception that gangs, especially ethnic latins, used switchblades in violent attacks on upstanding members of the community. Is this because of American Southern migration North? Did an earlier movement North cause a flurry of anti-Bowie laws that created a culture, nearly 2 generations, later that allowed the idea of banning knives to enter the heads of politicians? I don't get it.

SoCalShooter
January 28, 2007, 01:06 PM
Do you have pics of the knife? I wanted to pick up a bowie knife but I was unsure what to get.

JohnnyRockets
January 28, 2007, 04:14 PM
Response to SoCalShooter:

I sent you an email of a picture that I took of my Ontario Midnight Bagwell Bowie - I can't figure out how to post a picture here.

El Tejon
January 28, 2007, 10:32 PM
hso, laws against switchblades were motivated by hatred of Southern and East European immigrants. Daggers, bowie and dirk laws were passed to control a subculture of Southerners.

hso
January 29, 2007, 07:45 AM
I get the immegrants, Italian, Puerto Rican anyway, but the Switchblade has never been associated with Southerners. Bowies, oh yeah. Daggers, yep. That whole history of knife fights over perceived slights ran very deep (a throwback to dueling). Keep in mind that my perspecitve is that of a knife collector with an interest in the history of knives. Your's is from a legal standpoint.

Mike Sastre
January 31, 2007, 04:13 PM
SoCalShooter,

Couldn't tell for sure which Bowie you wanted to look at, but here's a CS Laredo and an Ontario Fortress - same size as a Midnight; only differrence is blade finish. Fortresses as a general rule, come with a sharper false edge than the Midnights. Laredo has a nicely sharpened false edge.

kronckew
February 2, 2007, 04:43 AM
i like my bell bowie replica (bottom), false edge is not sharp and even has a swelled profile like some armour piercing indian weapons i've seen (like zira bouk below), and some early roman gladii (thinner near the hilt end, thicker in the middle and tapering down again to the point, tho not exaggerated like the zira where the whole blade is thicker. neither of the antique ones interspaced with the 2 late 20th c. ones have sharpened false edges.

bowies:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gladius/bowie.jpg
tip:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gladius/bowietip1.jpg
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gladius/bowietip2.jpg


damascus zira bouk:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gladius/zirabouk.jpg

tip of bowie:

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