[skidooman]

I am going on a mounatain lion hunt in about 3 weeks, i have been wondering and asking around about which caliber would be best, this hunt will be done with dogs, in snow, and im thinking winchester mod. 94 in .357. ive also got a mod 94 in 30-30, i am also carrying a taurus tracker in .357, im thinking thats what im going to use just so if i can get close enough without being devoured i can shoot it with the tracker. i think it would be cool to shoot it with a revolver. also this hunt is a scary thing to me, a cat is an incredible killing machine, thats all it does. so i also plan on having a buddy just to my side with a mossberg 8 shot 12ga. loaded with 00 buck. just in case... anywho, just looking for thoughts and experiences. thanks

[H&Hhunter]

The only thing you have to fear from a Mt Lion hunt is that no matter how good a shape you think you are in, you aren’t in hound/lion hunting shape.

Unless you do it all the time.
It can be the most physically demanding form of hunting known to mankind

The .357 with 158 gr soft points is really a really good choice for cats. I don't like to carry a rifle when I'm chasing hounds through the wilds of western America. I prefer a hand gun only as do most hounds men hunting in mountainous treed areas. However if you are hunting in a place where there are few trees sometimes a rifle comes in handy especially if you get on a cat that won't bay up for very long.

Cats are very thin skinned and light boned and very easy to kill.

As far as cats being dangerous. In theory yes they are capable of killing animals as large as bull elk with ease. However, the danger to a hunter from cat while hunting with dogs is just about null.

The danger in cat hunting behind hounds is the shear physical endurance needed from the hunter and the fact that some times a cat will take you so far into the wilds that you stand a very real chance of spending a night or two out with minimal equipment. Outdoor survival skills are paramount when hunting cats or bears behind hounds.

Enjoy this hunt for what it is. And that's a fantastic tour of some of the finest wild country left on earth. Courtesy of a baying pack of Plotts and one of the west’s finest critters the Mountain lion. Oh yeah and try to keep up..
:)

A couple of big cats we've killed with the help of hounds.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/MtLion.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/Texanandatom.jpg

[Eyesac]

those are some LARGE cats...
Looks like you better start jogging every night from here on out.

[skidooman]

so my hunt was this last weekend, no fresh snow, but about a foot to a foot and a half of old dry stuff, did manage to find a fresh track about mid morning. let the dogs loose and away they went. i learned something real quick, i am definately not in cat/hound shape. ran some tracks for about a half hour and the dogs started running circles, we think it was a home area for the cat due to the amount of tracks. decided to take a breather while the dogs tried to work out which way to go. about the time we got sat down they changed tune on the bark, they had a cat treed, we ran over to where they were, and sure enough a cat in the tree. as soon as it caught sight of us it jumped from the tree and was gone. chased it around all afternoon and into the evening never getting close again. finally caught up to the dogs, gathered them up and back to the truck we went. definately a fun hunt. very exhausting but something i would love to do again, when im in some better shape of course.

[MCgunner]

I think I'm too old and definitely too fat for that. :banghead: Did you get within rifle range before the cat ran? Just wondering. I'm thinkin' if I went on one of those hunts, my .357 carbine might be better than a handgun. It's pretty light and handy.

[skidooman]

yeah i was about 30 yards from it, i was carrying the mod 94. 30-30 and the taurus .357 revolver, easy shot with the 30-30, but only got about 5 seconds of view before the cat ran, and the guide didnt want me shooting until he gave the word, the last time he had a cat get shot before he got to the dogs a dog got tore up due to a bad shot and the cat hit the ground fighting, broke the lower jaw and ripped part of its face off. so i understand his point. the next time we saw the cat he was about 700 yards away on the next ridge.

[H&Hhunter]

MCgunner,

I was going to point out that a rifle would have done our hunter no good in that situation for the reason that skidooman's guide pointed out. You NEVER shoot a cat or a bear out of a tree until you've got the hounds pulled back and tied.

For the very reason mentioned if that critter comes out of the tree while still alive into a pack of wildly baying hound the results usually carnage and it's the hounds who pay the price.

With rare exception every dog we've had killed or badly torn up was in a similar circumstance.

That is why I recommend a hand gun when hunting in a treed area. Once you catch the cat and treed solid you'll have time to pull the hounds back and make your shot with your pistol. there is no rush when it all comes together.

Now if you're hunting in an area with no trees like the Animas of South eastern NM you may well want a scoped rifle as your only shot may be on that ridge lined cat 200 yards yonder.

Skidooman,

I was hoping that you didn't think I was belittling you when I said you most likely weren't in good enough shape. I know I'm not anymore!

Back when I was guiding cat and bear hunters with hounds I was in the best shape of my adult life. And I still wasn't in top hounds men condition. I was good for about three days straight then I needed 24 hours to recoup no matter what. At the time I weighed 228lbs and had about 8% body fat.

I now weigh 2...darn much

My 65 year old partner has been a hounds men all his life and can walk me into dirt in any terrain at anytime in any weather conditions PERIOD. And I am 25 years his junior.

I've never meet a man who is tougher than him in the mountains.

I am happy you got to go out and do some cat hunting behind hounds. I wish more people would try it. It would cut way down on the BS factor in regards to people saying "I don't want to hunt with hounds, you just let the dogs loose and then walk up to a tree and kill the critter".

WRONG...

Greg

[MCgunner]

Sounds interesting. I wonder if they run cats much in New Mexico, the Guadelupes or up around Cloudcroft in the Lincoln NF? I know they run bear up there, read about it before. That's not, but a day's long drive from home. Deer hunted up there before. It's some rugged country.

Bout all I've chased with dogs is hogs and rabbits. Anytime dogs are involved, it just sort of adds flavor to the hunt to me. I love hearin' 'em on the trail. Even rabbit hunting with beagles is a hoot, though I haven't done it in years. That's why I posted that thing about beagles, been thinkin' about getting a dog or two, but I need to build a kennel if I do. One thing keeping me from it is having to stay home if I have dogs to feed. The wife and I can go anywhere anytime with just cats around. They fend for themselves even if they are worthless. :D

[skidooman]

both of you guys i appreciate the input from, the guide is about 40 years old and was talking on the way out there that he has gained some weight in his older age, and cant keep up with the dogs like he used to. now im 21 years old and weigh 160 lbs and am in decent shape from what i thought, this guy ran me straight into the ground, never would i have ever thought he could be in that good of shape. so i think for the rest of this winter and this summer i am going to get into some serious shape, and try again next winter. thanks guys.

[SoCalShooter]

Dude you are lucky to go mountain lion hunting...they froun on that in the DPRK. If it were me I would go with my .45auto as a backup side arm and take my friends m1a for extra fire power. But that is what my setup would be.

[skidooman]

socalshooter, i thought about taking my 1911, but the regs on hunting big game are .22 with a loaded overall length of 2 inches, to allow .223, or .24 or bigger with a case length equal to or longer than .44 mag. but as a backup i dont see them frowning on .45, but if you got caught shooting it at something you would be in a heap of trouble.

[Geno]

Being a thin-skinned animal, they really are not so very difficult to harvest in terms of power and penetration needed.

Doc2005

[oregonhunter]

I recomend using a rifle(25-06,257,270 30-06 etc) and not using dogs to tree the animal. give the animal fair chase and make the shot without dogs. There is another way you can do it witch is buy a cheap remote control car and put a caller on it it will drive on the rough a little bit and works to call them in. I used one that I put a rabbit skin on. just my .02

[MCgunner]

I've heard lion in the wild squall (hair raising noise), but I've never actually seen one in the wild. Lion are very stealthy and secretive and don't like people. I don't know how you'd hunt them successfully without dogs unless there was a BIG time over-population in the area or you just got real lucky. I suppose they'd come to a predator call if you spent enough time in a heavily populated area, maybe, but dogs are the best way I'm quite sure.

Did anyone see that episode on the outdoor channel a few weeks ago of "Tracks Across Africa" where they were chasing leopard with dogs? That was pretty hairy. They got charged by one and got it on tape. Not for the faint of heart. :D

[H&Hhunter]

recomend using a rifle(25-06,257,270 30-06 etc) and not using dogs to tree the animal. give the animal fair chase and make the shot without dogs. There is another way you can do it witch is buy a cheap remote control car and put a caller on it it will drive on the rough a little bit and works to call them in. I used one that I put a rabbit skin on. just my .02

oregonhunter,

First of all sir. You have obviously never hunted cats behind hounds. If you had you would know what a silly statement you have just made about "fair chase".

Secondly I find your observation on how to properly hunt a cat using a rifle a radio control car with a caller and a rabbit skin on it somewhere between juvenile and ridiculous.

However I am willing to grant you the benefit of the doubt as there are many strange things that happen out there in the great big wild world of hunting.

With that in mind explain to our knowledge starved members a thing or two.

1. How does one find a place open enough and flat enough and smooth enough to effectively operate said radio controlled car and also be in an area that reliably holds cats?

Cats generally like rocky steep areas as they are ambush hunters and ledges and cliffs are to their advantage.

2. How do you position yourself so that you are in range of said car and are able to keep it in sight?

Cats also prefer heavy cover such as oak shinery and dense forest. This is not "Animal Planet" here this is reality. Oh and the fact that cats are primarily nocturnal would kind of throw a wrench in the works too wouldn't it.

3. How do you locate an area that holds a huntable population of cats. Please let me know what technique you like to use having been in the cat hunting business for a while I always like to hear fresh ideas about that subject.

4. How would sitting in a fixed position in range of a radio control car waiting for a cat to show itself be in ANY way shape or form a more fair chase situation than humping your butt miles upon miles, through near vertical country, at high altitude, in deep snow, in the middle of the winter?


Now sir I am not outright calling you a liar. But I'd have to say that I am highly skeptical at this point. Could you please name some locations and approximate times of the year that this method of hunting worked out for you?

Also a picture or two of you with a cat or better yet a cat putting the sneak on your radio controlled kitty attractor would be a real help. I'm sure that a techno dude like you would have brought a camera. Right?

Respectfully

Greg

[skidooman]

H&Hhunter,
well said sir. i would also like to see some pictures of cats with the remote control bait.

[Art Eatman]

I have visions of Big Putty sitting and watching that RC car go buzzing along with a truly entertaining ***? look on his face. :D

"That's the most crippled-up rabbit I've ever seen, Maw!"
"Yeah, and he sings funny, too."

Baiting will work, if you have patience--and are in a sorta "hangout" area. Table scraps, a freshly-shot rabbit. And a handful of bulk catnip. Dunno which was the most effective, but he was a gorgeous kitty. :)

Art

[ZeSpectre]

Now here's a funny thing.
I have no interest in actually hunting (I.E. shooting and killing a prey) but reading all of this makes me want to go out, I don't know, call it "stalking" or "tracking" with a group on a mountain lion hunt.

Hey, maybe that's a goal to work towards as far as getting in better shape is concerned.

Oh, on topic, I think I'd prefer to have my .357 SRC lever gun along but that's mostly because it's comfortable like an old shoe and I don't even have to think to work it and shoot which would probably be a good thing under pressure.

[MCgunner]

Well, I'm watching three RC cars on Ebay as we speak. ROFLMAO!!!!! How much does a predator drone cost with a hellfire missle or two????:D Hell, if you're going RC, go all the way!

[H&Hhunter]

You know I've heard of several different techniques to hunt cats. As Art mentioned baiting is one way but it hasn't proven very effective on mountain lions.

Another way is to call them in with a predator call. The problem is that unlike coyotes cats do things on their own time. they may or may not respond to a fawn bleat call and if they do and they happen to come into it they don't charge in like a bear or a coyote. They sneak in and even if you are lucky enough to call a big cat in the chances are better than not that you'll never see him.

I often wonder how many times I've unknowingly brought in a big cat when predator calling. :uhoh:

Maybe one of those transformer cars would be the ticket. :D :D

[skidooman]

a good friend of mines dad was calling coyotes on a ranch just outside of town, and had his back against a bush and had a bobcat grab his arm. he of course came to life real quick, and said he didnt know was more scared, himself or the bobcat. i would imagine that to be a pretty scary ordeal.

[sturmruger]

I hope that someday we will be able to hunt cougar here in Wi, but they are still so scarce that our DNR lists them in the annual Rare Mammal report (http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/harvest/Reports/raremamobserv05.pdf). It is kind of funny because officially they don't believe there are any Cougar left in WI, but people still continue to see them.

[MCgunner]

Another way is to call them in with a predator call. The problem is that unlike coyotes cats do things on their own time. they may or may not respond to a fawn bleat call and if they do and they happen to come into it they don't charge in like a bear or a coyote. They sneak in and even if you are lucky enough to call a big cat in the chances are better than not that you'll never see him.

We have very, very few mountain lion around here. You hear about one now and then, but not very often. I know a guy that saw one near here, lived out in the country, was walking around a light on a pole about 3am with the dogs barking. And, I know two guys that have seen a cat down on the Aransas refuge while bow hunting, but it's rare.

I've done some predator calling, at night, with rabbit calls for coyote and I've NEVER seen a bobcat. They are, I guess, much as mountain lion, very stealthy. I've seen one on my place from the deer stand and I was out in West Texas once, killed a nice 8 point and gutted it there. Came back the next morning and a bobcat was checking out the guts, so I guess they'll come to bait, bobcat anyway. That one was a BIG bobcat, put the crosshairs on him for a bit, but really didn't want a bobcat mount and saw no reason to kill it, just enjoyed watching it for a few fleeting moments.

Knowing bobcat as I do is why I doubted calling would do any good on mountain lion as they are even more skittish of humans than bobcats. I used to run spring traps mostly for raccoons way back around 1980. They were bringing a decent price then and a buyer would come through town once a week. But, I never trapped a cat. Either they didn't like the bait or they were just too sly. Trapping a cat is rare.

[oregonhunter]

h&hHunter with respect... do you know everything.
I was taught this technique from my grandfather a sci chapter pres. He shoots cats with a 338 lapua improved one of his lapuas can be seen on mpistocks.com That picture is of the marco polo sheep he shot at 550 yards full run, success, top picture. he has hunted everything from bongo Can be seen on mpi as well, to lion, elephant, gemsbuck etc., he has over 72 trophies from africa alone. I have never questioned his methods and yet I have only used this technique with him once with no kill but I will be going up with him next time. Maybe you can tell him some tricks sir. By your name H&H you may be an african game hunter as well, This was a style I learned from a felow big game hunter and a man who shot a lion with a 375h&h I might have you, charging at 10 feet, and no he was not just trying to hunt charging lion ( I know there are people that try to do this to say they did.) he was on a different hunt at the time.

with respect

[MCgunner]

Well, whether RC cars or calling is effective is not the point, don't think. I think the argument here (let's just call it a discussion) is whether the use of dogs is or isn't ethical or "fair chase" as you put it. You insinuate that running cats with dogs or dog hunting in general isn't ethical. I happen to think it's plenty ethical if controlled by regulation. I see no problem with it. Man has been using dogs for hunting for thousands of years, the oldest intentional symbiotic relationship we have with another organism (not including intestinal bacteria or some such, intentional or man made relationship) because the dog was one of the very first animals we domesticated. Hunting with dogs is a tradition much, much older than firearms. I see no problem with it if regulated to protect and manage the population of the species hunted. Heck, some animals can be hunted with dogs and not come close to threatening populations. I've hunted rabbit and hog with dogs and there are no limits or seasons on them in Texas, no need. Feline predators, of course, need intensive management if they are to be hunted, whether with dogs or otherwise. Hunting with dogs is the most effective method, by by no means is it either easy or assured of success! My grandpa used to hunt raccoons with dogs. I never really got into that, don't really care about huntin' coons other than sellin' the hides and that ain't worth the effort anymore thanks to PITA I guess, but it's big sport. Knew a guy that ran coon dogs from a donkey he'd trained to jump fences. I've killed coons without dogs, not a big deal. But, dogs always add flavor to hunting whether raccoon, cat, or hogs. Just hearing 'em on the trail is an experience beyond the killing of the animal. Hunting with dogs has its own aesthetic rewards.

If we start limiting hunting based on personal perceived ethics, we're going to head down a slippery slope. Is it ethical to stick a deer with a broad head and have it run off and bleed to a slow, suffering death? Some say it's traditional sport, some say it's cruelty. From that argument to shooting a deer with a bullet just doesn't seem to be a long leap to me. And, after all, how many folks here think hunting quail or pheasant with dogs is unethical? It's hard to kill a limit of bobwhite quail without pointers.

[Glockfan.45]

While the DNR claims there are no Cougars around here two killed in the last few years in my area (one by train, one by car) proves them wrong. I have heard them cry at night and seen tracks on our regular hunting ground, which leads me to wonder what else we may have called in while Coyote hunting :uhoh: . One day I would love to see the population go up enough to hunt them here it sounds like great fun. Never heard the bit about RC cars :scrutiny: . We have however used predator calls and those little furry balls that roll around you buy at Petco as cat toys with good result however. The stalk is the true joy in predator hunting. Lately however most of the coyotes we call in are only shot by the camera ( I need to get a decent scanner to upload some pics ).

[Art Eatman]

If we're gonna get into hunting with dogs from an ethics standpoint, that's been done but there's no reason not to go back into it. :) In another thread.

A buddy of mine had a caged female bobcat that he'd trapped. He'd put old washrags in the cage to get them all smelly. Then, he'd put them out some fifty feet from where he'd sit and call. His intent was coyotes and bobcats.

He got a serious case of the spookies when, one evening, a lion stalked past some five feet in front of him. Fortunately the lion was paying more attention to the location of the aroma than in looking in my friend's direction...

Art

[H&Hhunter]

h&hHunter with respect... do you know everything.


oregonhunter,

No, but I do know a bit about cat and bear hunting behind hounds.:)

Thank you for introducing your grandfather. He sounds like an interesting guy.

With that in mind could you please answer even one of the questions that I refered to you my previous post?

I can't for the life of me see what having shot 72 trophies in Africa or having killed a lion at 10 feet with a .375H&H has to do with robo calling a mountain lion?

That was the subject we were speaking of, was it not?


A Marco Polo at 550 yards on dead run is quite a shot even with a .338 Lapua.

All I can say is wow... He must be some kind of a rifle shooter.

[oregonhunter]

My point was that I learned this from an excellent hunter who says it works. He is not new to hunting north american game, people have to start some were don't they. You have you experiences and I have mine, neither of us are right or wrong it's hunting. If you feel that your Opinion Is correct than go right ahead.

[H&Hhunter]

I'll bet you've got some great photos of ole gramps with his lions and RC cars then huh?

PS

You still haven't answered any of the quite simple questions I've asked you.

[oregonhunter]

No I dont have any pictures the do not live in oregon, My grandmother actually built the car. I do not feel the need to continue with you, you are a watse of time. have fun thrashing your opinions around elsewere.
To answer your question, Hunting experience is why his trofies are relevant. I did not even get into north american game. Being a guide you must know absolutely everything. I will leave this thread to you sir, the great colorado guide. Can you teach me to hunt, I have just realized I have been doing it all wrong for years. What gun do you use for deer, because whatever it is I have to have it, Mine probably isn't the same, it must be wrong then?

[Glockfan.45]

Oh I am getting a good laugh out of this, but please stop flaming one another now ;) .

[skidooman]

you aint kidding, a simple question of gun to use on a cat hunt. pretty funny.

[oregonhunter]

Ok You win H&H, I would go with a 357. unless you happen to have a s&W 500 if so that will do just fine:)

[atomchaser]

Why do trolls always have such problems with grammar and spelling?

[Art Eatman]

Enuf.