[JLStorm]

Ken Hackathorn had this to say in the following article:


Capacity of the .45ACP pistol is an issue. The unreliability of high-capacity .45ACP magazines when left loaded for months at a time has been one of the great weaknesses of the .45 caliber handgun. More than 10 rounds in a double stack .45ACP magazine has not been a good thing.

The article is related to his part in the development of the HK 45: http://www.vickerstactical.com/articles/GW%20HK45s.pdf

I have never heard of anyone complaining of this problem so I found it interesting that Hackathorn stated this was the main reason in limiting this guns ammo capacity to 10 rounds. Anyway, I dont want to get into a discussion about the HK 45, there are enough threads on that, I just want to know if anyone agrees with his opinion that "anything above 10 rounds chambered in .45ACP is unreliable and major a weakness of the .45ACP".

[ArfinGreebly]

First I've heard of it.

Springfield Armory is gonna wanna hear about this.

They've sold a boatload of XD45s.

Them puppies have a capacity of 13.

Perhaps someone at Springfield could enlighten you.

[AmbulanceDriver]

I will admit to having less than stellar performance w/ 8 round mags for my 1911. In particular, the Chip McCormick "Shooting Star" 8 rounders... They tended to stove pipe in my Colt 1991-A1.

I can't remember the current brand of 8 round mags I'm using now, but I've not had the same experience with these. They've been reliable through probalby 1000 rounds now.... Split between 3 mags

[MBane666]

Ken's right, and it has been pretty common knowledge for a long time that hi-cap .45 magazines tend to be fragile beasties. Less so now than in the early/mid-1990s when such things first appeared.

The problem is apparently two-fold...the added weight of the .45s over, say, 9mm, puts added stress on the magazine springs — as the gun is handled or rides in a holster, there's the weight of the rounds "bouncing" against the compressed spring. Secondly, my understanding is that in the double-stack magazines, the rounds have to rotate to move up; the larger diameter, heavier .45s took more umph to get going (Hi Mr. Newton!), which translated into more additional stress on the mag springs.

When we started shooting hi-cap .45s in IPSC competition (quickly superceded by other calibers, of course), we were routinely changing magazine springs at 300-750 rounds. At the time, I felt (and wrote) that the life of a hi-cap .45 magazine spring was too short and to prone to gun-stopping failure to trust as a duty gun. I shot a beautiful Cylinder & Slide custom Para .45 in IPSC for years (mostly out of sheer perversity and the prevalence of .45 ACP loading components at my house); it was my regular practice to replace all my magazine springs before a big match. My mag tubes were Tefloned and kept cleaner than my kitchen, and I regularly replaced the followers if they showed any sign of wear.

Aftermarket premium spings like Wolff Gunsprings made a difference, and there has been a lot of R&D on hi-cap .45 magazines — especially the tubes — since then. Still, I would have to put a lot of rounds through any of the new mil-spec double column .45s before I felt secure enough to carry them day in or day out.

I plan to get the mil-spec guns and do just that over the course of this year.

Michael B

[benEzra]

That's probably more of a mag design problem than a capacity problem. I suspect the early mags that failed quickly had too short an overall length for their capacity, thereby compressing the spring too much. The spring needs some space even at full compression, or you'll have spring fatigue problems quickly. Certainly with a pistol, there is a temptation to either make the mag as short as possible for a given capacity, or max out the capacity for a given length, and that may be the root of the design problems.

That's one reason AK mag followers have long sideplates, to keep the spring from bottoming out when the mag is filled to capacity. You could probably fit 35 rounds or more in a 30-round AK mag body, but it would then bottom out the spring and you'd have more susceptibility to fatigue.

FWIW, I've never heard of Glock .45 mags having a problem, but the designers probably thought through the spring compression issues ahead of time.

[Jim Watson]

I think the various 1911 mutants like P-O and SxI have marginal magazines. Combination of 1911 feeding geometry and the urge to squeeze in every possible round.

On the other hand, I have seldom seen a G21 give any trouble with its magazine and the H&K USP .45 I owned was 100% with any bullet shape in any load that would cycle the slide.

[ArfinGreebly]

More than 10 rounds in a double stack .45ACP magazine has not been a good thing.

The OP mentions double stack.

The replies all/mostly mention 1911 -- which is single stack.

There are a couple of weapons out there that double-stack more than 10 rounds (XD45 comes immediately to mind).

Are there, in fact, double-stack mags for 1911 pistols?

Or am I hearing that I need to scrap my plans for an XD45?

[LAR-15]

There are 1911s with double stack magazines.

Personally I think the best 45 ACPS have single stack magazines.

[JLStorm]

The thing that I find weird about his blanket statement is:

Many people use double stack 45 ACP magazines holding over 10 rounds for Glock, SA XD, HK, and I just dont recall hearing any problems
He does not address the issue of compact magazines for 45 ACP in a doublestack. Sure it may only be 8 or 10 rounds in the magazine, but the magazine, housing, and spring are all shorter, thus increasing the pressure on the spring to at least that of a full size 10+ round magazine I would imagine

[shooter71]

me personally , i max out the mag, and rack one. So leaving one less in the mag, the spring will love you for that in the long run :D

[JLStorm]

shooter, what about your spares?

[Fawkes]

The mechanical engineer in my has to wonder how a spring fatigues from sitting there not being used. As I recall, a spring will only wear out from repeated use. Now, is a hi-cap spring more likely to wear over time than a "lo-cap" mag spring? I'm not so sure, but it is possible. No worries here, as I only use 7-rounders.

[El Tejon]

Depending on what magazine he is discussing, yes there is a lot of truth to it.

I've taken a few of Hackathorn's classes. There have been guys using Glock 21s, inter alia in class. No problems to my memory. I have Glock 21s and Springfield XDs in 45--no problems to report here.

[fattsgalore]

What he should of said is hi-cap 1911's are unreliable. Glock21; Springfield XD45; HK USP and a bunch of other are quiet reliable. And since the military trials theres gonna be a flood of hi-cap .45's coming soon. I'm partial to the FNP-45. And S&W M&P .45 coming soon.

It looks as if the military wont pick a gun without a safety. Since the new M&P comes with a safety. The 9mm and .40 don't. Sorry Glocks another contract bites the dust. And people argue about the Glocks safety. If are own armed forces wont carry it it's maybe cause they see the potential danger of living with a gun with no safety. Not just Glocks but a bunch of guns, Sig included. If you eat, sleep, and **** with it... It needs a safety. Go to sleep with a loaded Glock under your pillow. You'll be lucky to wake back up.

[mpmarty]

Fatts, I beleive that Glock pistols DO have safties frame mounted like a 1911 but not the ones sent to this hemisphere. Gaston is afraid of the lawsuits that would come at the announcment that all the "old" glocks weren't safe.

[daysleeprx]

Are there, in fact, double-stack mags for 1911 pistols?

There are double stack 1911s; I believe Springfield makes one, and STI also has some models. There are probably more out there, but I'm at a loss to think of any at the moment.

[seeker_two]

...and no one has mentioned Para-Ordinance yet?.... :scrutiny:


Maybe Mr. Hackathorn should get in contact with those Canadians. They seem to have the problem figured out.... :D

[fattsgalore]

Mp your right about safetied Glock but not in America. They make after market safety's but whats the point since you'd probably void the warranty. Hum... I wonder why they would put a safety on the the Glocks... Hum?

Some one please tell me how to post pics or if i even can.

The reason no one mentioned Para is cause lots of people have problems with them. Cool gun though.

[Jim Watson]

Are there, in fact, double-stack mags for 1911 pistols?

If it takes a double stack magazine, it is not a 1911 in my book. Some people have slacker definitions. But there are double column mutants that work much like a real 1911.

Or am I hearing that I need to scrap my plans for an XD45?

I have no experience with the XD but we can hope they did their homework on a new design.

[Vern Humphrey]

the Chip McCormick "Shooting Star" 8 rounders

I've used nothing but Chip McCormic 8 rounders for about 15 years, in three different M1911s and have never had a problem with them.

[wally]

Certainly matches my experience with guns using Para Ordnance tubes. So far haven't seen it problems with the 13-round Springfield XD45, but I've only had the gun a few months.

For those "first I've heard of it" Check the Para forum at 1911forum.com. My experience makes double stack .45s using Para Ordnance derived tubes (Kimber BP and some others) makes them strictly range guns, among my favorite range guns, but confined to the range.

--wally.

[LoadedDrum]

My experiences with my Para P14 disagree with Mr. Hackathorn's opinion. The mags have all been perfectly reliable. Also, did the HK SOCOM have mag problems? Something is up here.

[micky692002]

I just bought on ebay a 25 round magazine for my 1911. I'll let you know how it works. :D

[iamkris]

My experiences (granted, only mine and not necessarily representative of all shooters) is that Mr. Hackathorn is maybe referencing gun world "wisdom" rather than statistically significant findings.

I have a 14.45 LDA Ltd that I use in 3 gun...I've run 1000's of rounds through it with narry a bobble since I put +1% Wolff springs in it. Prior to that, the springs didn't have enough oomph but that is a well known issue and any Para owner that doesn't recognize that isn't reading enough about their heater. My Witness .45 has just as many rounds through it...again, no issues with the mags. My XD45 doesn't have nearly as many rounds but it hasn't had an issue.

So, that's 3 double stack all with 10 or more rounds in the mag with many 1000's of round fired and no mag related issues (post PO spring change).

So take that, Kenny.

[bigmike45]

I agree.....I have had my XD-45 since January 06, and loaded both mags after purchase. The first time they were unloaded was the day after purchase when they were loaded and unloaded at least 15 times. I then purchased three more mags and loaded them as well. The second time I unloaded them, all five this time, was at the shooting range around the middle of June. They were reloaded and had been in the trunk of my car, in my range bag, until I again unloaded all five of them in December. I had no problems....well other than wishing I had 10 instead of 5. They have been reloaded and are awaiting the next play day at the range. Since the mags were unloaded under different weather extremes, and had no problems I feel secure in the fact that they will be reliable when needed. I will continually try them on a 6 month basis. Especially after reading this thread. I want to know if I can, infact continue to feel secure with the double stack mags

I have had the same kind of luck with my Wilson Combat single stack mags (47d's) and they have been loaded at times for up to a year with no problems, but they are single stack.

bigmike45

[JLStorm]

Also, did the HK SOCOM have mag problems?

For $2,000.00+ nothing on or in that gun should ever have any problems!! :what:

[CWL]

.45 double-stack mags seem to give out faster than smaller calibers.

It has been very well known about Para Ordnance's problems with doublestack springs.

The FBI issued doublestack Para .45s for a very short time but withdrew them all due to reliability issues.

I change the mag springs every 1000-1200 rounds (Wolff +10% springs) on my Para P13. While absolutely accurate, I wouldn't carry my P13 for SD because of this.

Wilson Combat does have a doublestack .45 on it's KZ .45. This design is more reliable because the top 1/3 is tapered into a single stack configuration.

[Pork Fat]

I wonder if there are some grip/magazine angles that feed better than others. Everyone seems to agree that the Glock 13 rounder feeds pretty well. Most of the problems seem to be with the more vertical double stack 1911.
Of course, there are the 20 and 30 round Thompson and Greasegun stick mags that seem to work reliably. They are dead straight and feeding a full auto. It would seem that the same issues of cartridge weight and circumference related friction would apply. They shouldn't work at all.:confused:
Interesting topic.

[Onmilo]

Steel magazine bodies and chrome silicone springs resolved the reliability issues that the early USP .45 magazines exhibited.
Double column .45 magazines still exhibit difficulties in feeding when loaded with many hollow point bullet designs and this has to do with the way the cartridges orient in the magazine during the feed cycle.
I have never had issues with my USP magazines, even those I have left loaded for three months still functioned fine, but I only shoot FMJ ball ammunition.

The problem with high capacity .45s isn't in the magazine, it is in the size of the grip area.
The grips are simply too large for many people to comfortably accommodate.

[Will Fennell]

First off,
For those that don't know of Ken Hackathorn, please understand that Ken see's more rounds fired out of defensive handguns a week, than most will fire in a year. Ken is a former Gunsite instructor, and a contract instructor to nearly everyone, .......primarily to the FBI.

My experience with Para Ordance hiCap 45's mirrors Michael Bane's. In the early '90's, I was an ardent IPSC Limited Class Competitor living in Texas. I fired 45,000 rounds of 45acp in my Para liminted gun in one season alone. Like Mr Bane, I changed Mag springs before every major match, or every 1500 rounds or so.....whichever came first. That is what it took to keep my $2500 limited class blaster working well enough to win matches........much less to protct my hide:scrutiny: Plus, if a mag hit the ground, it had to be stripped and cleaned .....just to keep functioning.

BTW, in that time, the slide to frame fit had to be tightened 3 times, and I needed to refit the gun with oversized hammer and sear pins twice to keep the gun running. The Para cast frame just wasn't up to the steady diet of .45acp major loads.

[Trebor]

Of course, there are the 20 and 30 round Thompson and Greasegun stick mags that seem to work reliably. They are dead straight and feeding a full auto. It would seem that the same issues of cartridge weight and circumference related friction would apply.

Actually, the 20 round Thompson mags have a reputation for being more reliable in military service use than the 30 round mags.

[wally]

Of course, there are the 20 and 30 round Thompson and Greasegun stick mags that seem to work reliably. They are dead straight and feeding a full auto. It would seem that the same issues of cartridge weight and circumference related friction would apply. They shouldn't work at all.

You miss the most important difference -- the Thompson magazine is a double stack, double feed design where the alternate rounds come in from different sides of a very wide feed ramp. Hence they are very reliable, despite being mostly 40-50 years old and made by a variety of sub-contractors.

The handgun double stack mags transition to a single feed and that is where the binding problems occur -- in this transition region. If I download my Para mags by four rounds they never seem to bind or if I get past the fifth shot with a full N+1 loading they have always been fine for the remainder. Problem is doing so kind of defeats the reason behind buying a double stack in the first place.

--wally.

[Sniper X]

I call horse hockey...like almost all other 1911 myths, I must be EXTREEMLY lucky, or these are one in a million myths because I have ten round Chip Mc Cormick mags all loaded up to 10, that I have had in my safe as backup mags for YEARS. When I took them out to shoot up the ammo, not ONE malfunction ever since. Sooo, I must be the only man in the history of the world to not have any of the 1911 beastly problems. In fact, I have had ONE malfunction in my life of about 35 years of 1911's with a stock crappy mag in a Kimber Pro Carrt which I thru out....never had a problem with that gun since and have had it for about 5 years. Last round count out of that puppie is 10gagillion and three.

[MICHAEL T]

In my Para Factory mag were junk .Added wolff springs helped more than anything but pistol was never 100% relieable.
I keep my single stack and 7 round mags as it was designed.

[wally]

Again the point has been missed. The CMC 10 rounders are single stack that extend well below the grip making the gun unwieldy for other than the range or games. He is talking about double stack single feed mags like the Para P14, XD45 and USP.

My only significant experience is with Para and Kimber BP which use the same tubes -- and they are not defense reliable IMHO.

So far my XD45 13 round mags have had no issues but I've not had the gun for but a few months, I got my first Para circa 1994. I've no experience with the USP45. My Glock 21 has been reliable but again its one round less and a good bit larger in the grip like the XD45 and the USP compared to the Para or Kimber BP (plus its my least favorite so its not been shot enough for me to really claim its reliable) . Also the Glock has a fairly radically different grip angle than the others.

--wally.

[Redhat]

The article is related to his part in the development of the HK 45:

So he was involved in development of the HK45, how many rounds does it hold?

Wonder if that has something to do with his knocking the reliability of 45ACP magazine over 10 rounds.

[Grayrider]

Ultimately I suspect any such blanket comments across platform. There have been fewer types of double-stack 45 magazines than such magazines for other calibers. So if one or two types had issues that would be a greater percentage of the pool of various magazine designs for 45 than if say a couple styles of 9mm magazines had issues (and there certainly are those that do). As for such 45 magazines, I have seen no issues with Glock 21 magazines at all. Comparing them to Para mags goes well beyond apples and oranges. Perhaps apples and orangutans.

:D

To claim that history has shown double-stack 45 mags to be problematic in pistols (when up until recently there were very few kinds of such mags) might be historically accurate, but it would not be an accurate sampling of all such designs presently on the market nor the basis to infer that any such magazine will have issues due to the caliber and capacity combination. Now we have FN, Springfield, HP, and Taurus mags to evaluate that all hold more than 10 rounds. Time will tell whether having magazines with such capacities are a bad choice or not making a gun to have such capacities was a bad choice.

John

[Correia]

No magazine issues to report with a Kimber/BUL. Mine has approximately 20,000 rounds through it.

No problems on any of the current production STI 2011 guns either.

[45auto]

No doubt there are exceptions, as noted above, but the 1911 45 doublestack has had a bad "rep" for years. I've been tempted to buy one, just because, but have passed each time...I have little patience for "mag problems". ;)

On the STI website, they indicate only 12% of their doublstacks are 45. I don't know what Para sells, but it's likely 45 doublestacks are a pretty minor item now since the 40's have taken over.

[10-Ring]

I've heard this w/ aftermarket mags for other 45's but not with stock mags & not w/ HK stock mags...
I tend not to let any mag stay loaded months one end w/o use or rotating out the mag.

[buzz_knox]

I have ten round Chip Mc Cormick mags all loaded up to 10

Those would be single stack mags, correct? Hackathorn's comments go to double stack mags.

As to his underlying point, would this relate to the experience related by Larry Vickers that double stack .45 mags (and hi-cap 1911s in general) are less than acceptably reliable in the conditions that Vickers might have occasion to employ them? Like the Checkmate M9 mags, these mags might be acceptable in most situations, but in the situations for which the HK45 was designed, perhaps they don't reach the level of reliablity that Hackathorn or Vickers (who has made similar comments) wanted for this weapon?

[Redhat]

Seems like most replies are keying in on double stack 1911 mags, whereas there are other 45 ACP pistols on the market (or soon to be).
HK45
HK USP45
FNP45
M&P45
XD45

Guess we'll have to see what happens!

[psychophipps]

Redhat
Seems like most replies are keying in on double stack 1911 mags, whereas there are other 45 ACP pistols on the market (or soon to be).
HK45
HK USP45
FNP45
M&P45
XD45

Guess we'll have to see what happens!

What, no Glock 21 or 30?!? I guess Austrian double-stacks are chopped liver up in here. ;)

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[Robert Hairless]

For $2,000.00+ nothing on or in that gun should ever have any problems!!

I agree. Just like cars, washers, refrigerators, and everything else. When I spend good money on a machine it should last forever with no problems. The Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I that I bought in 1972 was the biggest ripoff ever. They won't even repair it under warranty anymore.

:)