[sonny]

Foriegn affairs?......immigration?.....economy?.......What is going to bite us in the rear if we don't get our collective act together?

[standingbear]

bill of rights getting eroded bit by bit,what really gets me is the fact some would like to see them removed,the whole idea that people died defending others rights and our rights and these people take this as nothing?sheeple see you carrying 2 or 3 guns to your car to go shooting and call the police(recent ).what if the guns were black assault style guns?kids not being allowed to have "pictures of guns" or even play army cause of the sheeple mentality.lack of responsability towards crime..its blamed on the guns.(as if they werent available wouldnt they find something else?)people charged with crimes from defending their lives from burglars.burglar gets shot or beat up..he sues the the people in the house he just tried robbing(what kind of crap is this?)the economy..greedy ceos that get big bonuses while the employees are getting the pink slip.gas stations gouging customers(how can the same gas be 175 a gallon one place then 45 minutes down the road,its 140?)yet people who dont travel,pay the high prices.i think greed and dishonesty bout sums it up.people takeing advantage of a situation(any situation) and gouging- is dishonest to say the least.:barf:

[Skunkabilly]

Other than the obvious constitutional rights being eroded, for the Skunk it would be everything being tied in to your social security number. I can't get running water without it here.

[sonny]

standingbear........I agree with most of your feelings on this but consider the alternative to some of the problems.We don't want the govt setting prices on products....even gas......As far as rotten CEO's.... you can go and start a company and do as you like with your employee's.....I'm not trying to be a wise guy....because I really do get what you are saying about greed .....but I'm sure glad their are no LAWS against greed.....understand?

[ACP230]

HIGH taxes.

I've been overtaxed since I started to work 30 years ago. Lack of control over our money because of taxes and payroll witholding causes lots of problems including lack of dinero for guns! (I just missed a chance at a C&R M2 Carbine and it made me cranky.)

Political correctness run amok.
People should expect to be offended occasionally. If they don't like it they should offend me back, not sue.

Judges who can't read the Constitution or Bill Of Rights, or can and pretend they can't.

Older children who won't take their old man to the range. Ingrates! I spent thousands teaching them to shoot and now they claim to have to work whenever I want to go shooting!

[geekWithA.45]

Biggest Structural Problems:

1) Bill of Rights badly eroded, all 10 of em. (My read on the 3rd is that troops were quartered in people's homes to spy on them and force dissent underground, in other words: we have the right to be left the hell alone) Where, oh, where is the freaking SCOTUS?

2) The IRS/Taxation system has grown past critical mass, and has taken on a life of its own. "He who has the gold makes the rules", and they'll take the gold at gunpoint.

3) The internal rules and seniority system of congress give more power to one man than was intended, as in chairs of committees can squelch a bill in its entirety.

Biggest Societal Problems:


1) Erosion of personal responsibility/personal power
2) Misplaced beliefs regarding the role of the government and it's relationship to the people
3) Culture of victimhood, which is at the root of PC

[Ian]

Lack of legal respect for property rights. Specifically:

the income tax
excise taxes
vehicle registration (I just got a my first car...)
drug prohibition
age restrictions on pistols (not that they stop me, but they're aggravating)
Social Security numbers (not quite property rights related)
firearms purchase and carry restrictions

[Wildalaska]

My major concerns are the radical organizations such as the ALF, PETA, the Army of God, the various freak militias, the Aryan Nations and their off shoots, the radical right to lifers, etc.

Add to them the recent freak socialist organizations we saw dancing in the streets recntly.

Also Charlie Schumer, Frank Lautenberg and Diane Feinstein.

WilddontforgetIslamofascismAlaska

[Jim March]

None of the above.

The single biggest issue is how public schools are being turned into socialist indoctrination camps.

Those of us who care about freedom are going to be increasingly in the minority. I don't know what the hell to do about it, other than preserve the RKBA so that our minority can say "no" against the majority.

They'll have numbers. We'll have brains and determination. It'll come down to one hell of a fight, eventually.

[rrader]

The ever increasing population in the USA. At some point it becomes a zero sum game, resources can be used more efficiently but not created out of thin air.

At the current immigration rate some day soon Americans will all be living like Chinese peasants; with 3 generations of relatives in a one room mud hut, fertilizing their rice paddies with their own night soil and wondering what happened to the good life.

[Feanaro]

Obviously freedom. The fact that we have become so... "nanny" like. "Oh, you can't say that, it might offend someone." "That would hurt his/her self confidence." "That's too harsh, that's too mean."

It never ends, sometimes you have to be a little harsh with children to mold them into a human being rather than a pile of indecisive politically correct crap.

Number of peope telling me not to eat meat. I like it, especially with a little BLOOD in it. :p And when people are protesting for more animal rights than they are for human rights I find something wrong with that. Humans are more important than animals, thank you.

School. I learned more from my senile grand-father-in-law than I did from school. And I was in the special ed class, not the one for stupid people. The one for really smart ones.

[UnknownSailor]

I'm with Jim March on this one. Many of the extreme left-wing ideas currently being applied into law are coming from the extreme left in academia.
We MUST take the schools back. Starting with the primary schools.

[oldfart]

So far, most of the concerns listed pretty well match mine. But there is one more field that needs plowing.

Most of us remember stories about how people in Soviet_Russia or Nazi
Germany had to watch what they said and to whom they said it. If the story ever got back to the authorities
someone might end up in Siberia... or worse. It's happening here now. From time to time we hear about kids being encouraged to rat out their parents regarding guns or drugs or unpopular political ideas. Even on these boards, some threads are killed or pulled because "someone" might take offense or because some government agency might come asking about why the thread was allowed.

What's worse, even we, who want to be seen as conservative, anti-big-government free-thinkers, have taken to condemning anyone who actually has the stones to stop_talking and do something, especially if what he does is beyond what we would do. If we were living 230 years ago, many of us would be the ones bitching about those hotheads in Philadelphia stirring up the King!

I guess the thing that bothers me the most is the knowledge that Big Brother is winning. We "Patriots" are so busy punching holes in paper and hiding behind screen-names we've forgotten what it is we're trying to accomplish. Some of us bitch about BB (Big Brother) while either actively working for him (until retirement, of course) or maintaining such a low profile that he'd have to dig to find your head.

Two hundred and twenty-eight years ago, a group of wealthy, successful men gathered together and willingly signed their own death-warrants. Since then, each generation has climbed over its predecessor to forge new chains for shackling their own children. Each generation has told itself what great patriots they were while being unable to look itself in the eye.

We are just the most recent of those two-faced generations. We (with rare exceptions) suck from the Federal teat with one face while telling ourselves that we don't really need or want it. We can't even be honest with ourselves. What was it that Shakespeare said in Hamlet: "This above all things; to thine ownself be true. Then it follows, as night the day, thou canst not be false to any man."

[JimP]

I'm with Jim March and the unknown sailor. The socialists realized decades ago that they would never be able to destroy us from the outside, what they needed to do was to get "inside". They have thoroughly infiltrated the schools and have done a wonderful job at destroying our youth. Look at the NEA and their absolute refusal to be bound by ANY standards of teaching. The solution to failing students and declining performance is typical socialist/Liberal - toss more money at it. That takes more money out of production, our pockets and makes less available to programs that truly need it. A higher tax burden further erodes the stability of the family (the only mechanism not yet thoroughly destroyed by democrats but they are getting close) by forcing both parents to work (doesn't matter who the major wage earner is as long as the kids are squared away and not raised by some statist/socialist/lib bliss-ninny), to provide a basic decent lifestyle. If the libs are successful in the destruction of the family, we are truly done.

[P95Carry]

If the libs are successful in the destruction of the family, we are truly done. Sadly Jim, they seem all too well on the way! School shootings are a very real manifestation of the societal demolition.

[Jim March]

Population pressure is a non-issue, especially in the US.

I flew to Texas earlier this year, Oakland airport out across Nevada, southern Utah, southern Colorado and then arcing down towards Dallas.

Ever spend an entire trip like that looking out the window for signs of human impact? Over HUGE stretches, there ain't any.

Even in the areas of the US that have been "civilized" the longest, states like Penn and VA, huge areas are wilderness and deer are greater in number than at any time over the last 300+ years.

Even planet-wide, the creativity of free people can keep food supplies ahead of population pressures. In fact, every single famine over the last 100 years is directly attributable to war, political instability, idiotic economic theories (commies) and in some cases deliberate genocide. The starvation of millions in the Ukraine prior to WW2 was deliberate policy by Stalin, and it wasn't anywhere close to the sole example.

I believe that the number one thing we can do for the future of the race is to preserve and expand freedom.

[Waitone]

Militarization of the Executive Branch of the Federal government.

Corporatism

Refusal of Executive branch and Legislative branch of the federal government to do anything, right or wrong, about ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

[Chris Rhines]

Collectivism in general.

- Chris

[sonny]

Ya know?..........it occured to me that if as a nation we held honesty and the TRUTH as top priorities and worked TOGETHER we may be able to work out our problems.
And no.....I don't do drugs :D

[Gmac]

The fact that govt. (federal, state & local) and law enforcement orgs. (ditto previous) seem to be grabbing more power while becoming less accountable for their actions. Guy in NYC reaches for his wallet and the cops blow him away-------next thing you know seat belt violations will be grounds for summary execution.
Hell they already are here in Ohio! Seizure of private property because of alleged drug offenses---- the list goes on to infinity.
All that being said this is still the greatest country on earth!

[DrPsycho]

Erosion of core family values/child rearing practices, including divorce. IMO the beginnings of criminality. Destruction from within.

Those complaining of high taxes obviously haven't lived outside of the USA. You guys have it sweet compared to the nearly all other "first world" nations.

[Solinvictus70]

1) The unprecedented seizure of political and economic power by multinational corporations. These companies buy politicians and are the largest receipients of welfare ($195 billion in 2000). While making profits and taking public money, they still lay off American workers.
2) Education at primary and secondary levels is awful. The core goals of those in charge are to promote a socio-political agenda rather than give students the skills needed to learn and to succeed in life.
3) Unchecked immigration is ruining our country and giving it a Third World tint. It is going to result in Balkanization on the North American continent.
4) Taxation is out of control. We are taxed by every level of government. There needs to be reform to either have a consumption tax or flat rate of tax with no exemptions.
5) Big Brother is here and making his presence felt. In this climate, people are beginning to be fearful of speaking their opinions. This "war of terror" is leading to some frightening prospects for our individual liberties.
6) The collapse of ethics and the concept of individual responsibility has given us many social problems ranging from teen pregnancy to the new Nanny Nation style of government. Freedom is not a license to enjoy hedonism without consequences.

[longeyes]

In so many ways we are losing our freedoms; we all understand that.

If I had to pick just one problem, though, I'd agree with Jim March and others here that education is the engine on which all depends. We have allowed the key value-creators of this society to spread an anti-freedom message that has already infected this society from top to bottom. One can, in but one generation, lose a Republic if the ideas that support that Republic are ignored or forgotten or discounted. I think we are on the verge of seeing that happen.

As a man once said, "What is to be done?"

[tyme]

The 2004 democratic presidential candidate pony shows are called "debates." The standard for political discourse among candidates has gotten so low I'm not sure there is a standard. Incumbents have a ridiculous advantage due to name recognition, voter apathy, and pork.

Ex-felons are persona non grata in many ways even after they're deemed to have paid their debts to society. The drug war is perpetuating violent crime, leading to assaults on arms rights and the 4th, 5th, and 10th Amendments, among others. The vast majority of the House and Senate could never hope to understand technology, yet they continue passing laws on the urging of their campaigns' corporate financiers.

There's no rationalized basis for national or foreign policy. One administration gets sexual favors from interns, launches cruise missiles at unknown targets in Afghanistan, and sells secrets to China in return for campaign contributions; the next ousts evil regimes based on questionable evidence, and has no good plan for getting the country to adopt a democratic government afteward. Too many people are unemployed, national security leaves much to be desired, and States are in a budget crunch, yet national funds are going to AIDS research in Africa. Both parties are happy to continue increasing funding to Social Security even though it'll be insolvent in a few decades.

Major concerns? I think the things I'm not very concerned about would be easier to list.

[keithernTN]

People taking responsibility for themselves instead of blaming others.

Parents not teaching thier children discipline or right from wrong.

Government wasting tax dollars with nothing to show for it.

Schools that waste tax dollars with nothing to show for it.

[B9mmHP]

The single biggest issue is how public schools are being turned into socialist indoctrination camps.

Jim, I couldn`t have said it better.

I don't know what the hell to do about it,

Home Schooling. From DR. Robinson`s CD`s, about $200, K-12.

[Atticus]

I would agree that the public school system is less than ideal, but I don't think that they influence kids as much as people think they do. I think we learn from many sources, and we pick and choose our beliefs along the way. It may take 20-30 years, but it will happen.

Bad, or absentee, parenting (which is rampant) combined with a socialist leaning educational system is another, far more serious, matter.

My greatest concern however, is the lack of critical thinking skills that is prevalent today. No one seems to question anything. Gun control is one of the better examples of that. Very few, if any, GC laws are logical or effective.

Liberals say that the US can't afford tax relief - as if the money dissapears from the face of the Earth if the government isn't on the receiving end of the cash flow. Once again...no thought or logic involved.

Oh well.....back to the cubicle. :rolleyes:

[grampster]

Well, there is a lot of wisdom and recognition of mostly the same things expressed here and I agree with them. The question then is......not what are the problems, but how do we get the rest of the sheeple to recognize that there is one.

I think basically we are doomed, as people are quick to turn their eyes away or plug their ears. History proves every civilization that was, disapears after a time. We will be no different. We will fall apart because we wallowed in luxury and became selfish and ignorant and narrow in our focus and afraid of our own shadows.

Now I'll throw one more wrench into the gears. The women's liberation movement was the greatest single thing that brought our culture down. It's stated course was to bring down the 2 parent family, to require women to work in the workplace rather than the home as it elevated career to a higher value than motherhood and render sexuality into a non issue that is a pleasure based human function rather than a division of labor. The flooding of the market by women who were coerced into the workplace by their "sisters" caused an increase in market demand, which increased production, which increased prices, which increased inflation, which increased the necessity for women to work, which raised the standard of living to require optional things like boats, bikes, 2nd homes, etc to the level of must have rather than may have or not have, created the day care phenomenon, that stultified the "civilizing" of children ie: not teaching them the difference between right and wrong and the denigration of the value of a two parent household. The same gurus of the women's lib movement caused the sexual revolution and the PC movement along with a value neutral institutional educational system that lends moral equivalancy to every human behavior no matter how disgusting and pays more attention to neo modern drivel and denigrates the wisdom of the ages.

Before you flame me, you must be at least 60 years old and have paid a modicum of attention to the "way things were" prior to the 60's and what has happened since then. Your opinion is of no value unless you bring these qualifications to the table as you have no basis for which to criticize my remarks other than what others have told you.....not what you have observed yourself. One caveat: Things were never perfect and I understand that!

grampster

[Glock Glockler]

The root cause of all this bad stuff that people mention is a spiritual decay that is taking place among individiuals, and the effects can be measured on a National scale.

- What is the spiritual state of one who would use the arm of government to punish those who they believe to be sinful or immoral? Are they, through govt, trying to play God by dishing out punishment? Or are they really just projecting their own sinfullness onto others, but they don't have the courage to clean up their own act by themselves, so they have to hire the govt to do it?

- What is the spiritual state of one who doesn't mind mass theivery and/or extortion of their fellow citizens, whether or not they stand to profit from it?

- What is the spiritual state of one who is so comsumed by the persuit of material, that they neglect the human needs that are present? I can't count the number of couples I know that both work, and send their kids to garbage day care of govt schools (the same thing for different age kids) so they can afford to keep up with the Jones' in buying things.

That's it in a nutshell: people being sick on an individual level, and the effects are manifested large-scale. Help cure people one at a time and you'll help the nation.

[Sergeant Bob]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Jim March on this, although I think it begins much earlier. During my career in the USAF, I attended a psychology course where I saw a film called "What you are is what you were when" , by a Dr. from Texas (can't remember his name). In it he stated that most people's core morals and values are established by the age of seven. I believe this to be true.
If parents teach good values to their children before they are subject to the indoctrination camps, most will grow up to be decent human beings in spite of their training.

Lack of good parenting is the biggest danger to our society.

Look at yourself. Are you a decent, moral person? Where did that come from? Now, look at your parents.

[sonny]

Sonny you said:Ya know?..........it occured to me that if as a nation we held honesty and the TRUTH as top priorities and worked TOGETHER we may be able to work out our problems. .......you are a wise man and I agree:D

As for you GRAMPSTER...How dare you!:fire: ......make perfect sense:D

[Erik]

I'll go with the indoctrination theory.

Though I believe that if shopping malls, theaters and bowling alleys begin to explode, the feel good can't we all just get along political correctness movement will take a distant back seat to the nation's "less sensitive side" which will emerge.

[spartacus2002]

Education and critical thinking. If you don't have those, you are just a bacterium with legs.

You gotta teach the kids both what to think and HOW to think. I went to a pretty good private Catholic school, and the history and economics classes were absolutely worthless. Unfortunately, those are the classes that you need the most as a foundation for understanding life and human interaction.

We could cite a million other ways the US is going down the tubes, but this is the key.

[longeyes]

We will fall apart because we wallowed in luxury and
became selfish and ignorant and narrow in our focus and afraid of our own
shadows.

Not so quick. Sometimes a surfeit of sheep brings out a great season of wolves.

We are, no doubt, headed for some kind of social and cultural crisis, in part at least precipitated by what you cite here, but when it becomes clear enough that survival is at stake, not just annoyance or inconvenience, some transformations are going to take place and people are going to start sorting themselves out. I wouldn't place any bets just yet. What doesn't avail for survival may come to an abrupt and inglorious end.

[ravinraven]

Folks, it is education that is our biggest problem and the only way to cure all the other problems listed here. Jim March, UnknownSailor and a few others point that out.

By education, I mean REAL learning about American values, family values, how the constitution is supposed to work and on and on. I do not mean that we need more hand outs to Union bigwigs so they can water down history and peddal political correctness [cultural Marxism] to unsuspecting kids.

I doubt that government school education can be turned around...peacefully. There has to be an organization that can educate the government school victims and try to get them to rejoin the liberty lovers of old. How can this be done? CDs, VCR tapes, internet, lecture series, talk radio. Who knows? Can we create video games that teach truth as the kids wander through some maze. Can the "violent" games use political correctness promoters for targets? Can we run essay contests where good prizes are awarded for politically accurate work?

A plan must be made and enacted that will roll back the CRAP that passes for education today as steadily and maybe unobtrusively as the forces operated that gave us today's CRAP to start with.

I know what needs to be done. I don't know how to get it rolling. Is there anyone out there who does or who has something started that others can tag into?

We have the least educated student body in the world these days.

ravinraven

[Jim March]

Let me clarify a couple of things: sure, home-schooling is the answer for OUR kids, but it's not "the answer for society" because with schooling "free" (or rather, payment is forced), most parents will just take advantage of the "free" schools.

Vouchers are, I think, an excellent "first step" and "politically feasible" today. With a "free market" for educational services, schools will open up that are NOT "indoctrination camps".

At present, just calling the schools "socialist indoctrination camps" isn't even adequate to describe how bad they are.

What the schools are specifically doing is two-fold: they're putting one set of ideas into the kid's heads (about "fairness" and "sharing" and all that touchy-feely stuff in a very general way) while deliberately leaving out info on how our government actually works.

High school "civics" class in particular is a joke. There's no info on how to do actual political activism as a concerned citizen who is part of the government. This is not accidental, it's quite deliberate.

The net result is to graduate "sheeple" who have a rough general idea that people with "touchy feely ideas" are "good", but have no clue beyond that.

OK, let me show you a classic case of how screwed up the results are:

Late last year, I attended a two-day series of speeches on "Open Government", various sunshine laws, put on by the California First Amendment Coalition at San Jose State University over a weekend. CFAC is a journalist's lobbying group and one morning was dedicated to a series of speeches by "amateur activists" who had made practical use of document requests, open meeting laws and the like. I was one of the three amateurs, the other two were an environmentalist and a guy who makes life hard on school boards :).

So during the lunch break, I went downstairs to the campus cafeteria for munchies. While standing in line, I had my ID badge on with the "OpenGov02" logo on it. One of the college kids asked what that was about, and I explained in brief about how important it is to have access to government documents and proceedings, and how the laws in that area need to get beefed up.

He had absolutely NO idea that government documents are public, asked why they should be public, and seemed deeply disturbed that they were.

:scrutiny:

And this dude's in COLLEGE.

What's wrong with this picture, folks?

That's the result of "high school" and prior "education".

It also explains why public records have to be pried out of official hands with a friggin' crowbar most of the time: with so few activists digging, they know they can screw people and not get public criticism.

This is deliberate. It cannot possibly be accidental.

:cuss:

[P95Carry]

More astute comments Jim .. thx ......with ya.

[spartacus2002]

I read a great quote from a govt study of education in the early '80s, words to the effect that if a foreign power had imposed the current US educational system on us, we would consider it an act of war.

[ravinraven]

Jim March's college student who didn't know about open government is only one of the millions out there. This deliberate failure of government schools to teach the young that the government is open and what the Bill Of Rights means may be a great place to start REAL teaching efforts.

I have met many people with the same ignorance. I have met veterans of WWII and Korea who do not know about open government. One vet was sure "they" were going to come and get me for some opinion that I expressed in a letter-to-the editor.

But the total ignorance of young people is alarming.

I remember reading at least twenty years ago the results of an opinion poll where a pollster had people read the Declaration of Independence and then comment upon it. About 90% of the "polled" called it a subversive document and did not recognize that it was the DOI. Fantastic.

With proper REAL education about our history our covernment our constitution, especially the BOR, our court system and culture I believe all the concerns listed in this thread would fade. Those concerns were not a part of our problems back when REAL education existed.

Is there someone working on this REAL education idea?? Should we, the concerned, start it here?

ravinraven

[grampster]

Longeyes,

Your comments explain what I call the "Dog crapping in your yard" syndrome. My involvement in grass roots politics and activism at the township level, county level and in neighborhood associations has taught me that until the "Dog craps in your yard" most folks are not very concerned about whether the dog is crapping in everybody elses yard. They complain and sympathize but rarely do anything. I hope you are right, but I have seen evidence that many citizens are quite apathetic and continually wait for the other guy to do what needs to be done.

With respect to Mr. March and others, I am in total agreement with the "Institutional Public Schools" I have posted comments at TAC and here about how the way to change public education is to find folks of a like mind and take over the local school boards and quietly but surely demand the administrators begin to properly educate our children in reading, history, government. The other subjects are important to be sure, but if a kid is taught how to read and inculcated with the best of our American Culture, he will be a valuable addition in keeping us strong and free. To know about science, math etc will not be much value if we lose our freedom.

grampster

[Oatka]

The systematic eradication of the Middle Class, not by design, but by indifference and greed.

As per grampster, I'll hit 70 this year and from personal observation, can tell you that this country is rotting away under our feet like an iced up river in the spring.

I've read through this whole list to see if anybody else brought this topic up, saw none, so will expound.

When NAFTA was proposed, it was "only the blue collar" jobs that would be lost - we would be the new intellectual powerhouse of the world.

Well, the factories left, $18 an hour millwrights went to minimum wage if they were lucky, and had their property taxes double as the taxable base disappeared as well.

Then came the H1Bs and L-1s. Hi tech folks from India and elsewhere. Supoosed to be paid same wages as US nationals but the companies got around that by putting the people on salary, working them 60-80 hours a week and billing the client for 40. (Personal experience) Guess who started getting hired ALL the time? They killed the computer programming trade in less than 10 years. I imagine the same is going on with engineers and other hi-tech positions.

A blind eye is turned towards this invasion of illegal aliens who push the wage base down even further.

Now they are even "outsourcing" low-tech customer service jobs ("call 800 . . . for info") for chrissakes.

We are going to end up like South America with the rich isolating themselves behind armed guards and gates and the restless underemployed milling around outside.

The politicians have tax-payer guaranteed pensions instead of 401Ks, so they insulate themselves from their folly. The CEOs have their golden parachutes while their employees get their pink slips.

Wonder why the economy is stagnating? This is a consumer economy and the corporations have laid off all their customers. You can't sell to those who have no money. It doesn't matter if Chinese TVs at WallyWorld are cheap if I have only a subsistence wage.

"Global Competition" means "Who will work the cheapest?" We are finding out, slowly but surely.

And by and large, outside of a few boards like this, nobody is aware, or if they are, gives a damn.

<rant off>

[longeyes]

The systematic eradication of the Middle Class, not by design, but by indifference and greed.

I'm with you on indifference and greed but I'm afraid I believe, and I'm not alone, that design indeed has something to do with a lot of our problems. There appears to be a systematic program to kill off the middle-class, along with its traditional values, in this country. We managed to create a country without a proletariat so some folks decided we'd better have one, the better to further their own political ambitions. We are now in the process of importing that proletariat on a daily basis and establishing a huge underclass that is alreay undermining our social and cultural cohesion. I think you are right; it's the "South America" model that's on someone's desk, with oligarchs and rich dynasties, a bunch of hard-working stiffs in the middle to pay the taxes for the expanding bureaucracy, and lots of "needy" to keep the welfare mafia employed. We are nation-building abroad while nation-destroying at home.

We all seem to agree that education, in particular political education, is the crux of the matter, for without an educated citizenry you can't have the Constitutional Republic we cherish. Working to take over schoolboards is a good idea, but I think the answer finally has to be privatization, with vouchers as a first step. It won't be easy, for teachers have become a powerful and protected class in this country, with huge political influence. One of the primary reasons that my state (CA) is bleeding fiscally is that our budget is in the iron grip of the edutariat. The Left's mantra has and continues to be that public education is the answer to "what's wrong with America" when it's really part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

My optimism lies in the fact that we are facing, in many states, the spectre of either insolvency or a crisis precipitated by enforced higher taxes. Maybe at some point the people who sees taxes eroding more and more of their dreams will commit some time to activism rather than escapism. I keep waiting for some firebrands to stir things up nationally, but right now talk radio is about the only place there's any fire.

[Unisaw]

The growing role of government and govt. bureaucracy, including the educational bureaucracy.
The gradual erosion of individual rights.
The decline in personal responsibility and the rise of victimhood.
Far too many of our youth and young adults (boy, that makes me sound old!) lack even a rudimentary understanding of American and world history.

[Esky]

I started to list all the problems that had been identified by the contributors thus far, to find the common denominator(s) & try to come up with some ideas for solutions...

But then I was overcome with a great sadness, and felt despair.

We're looking at great and fundamental problems here- not for us as individuals, but for our great land.

I hope it's just momentary depression, but I do think we may have passed the "tipping point" and we're going down. To what, is the question. Could be a civil war, but of a different kind than the one we've already had, a war to regain the liberty that is now being thrown away by so many. The "birthright for a bowl of porridge" thing, (if I remember that right.)

Maybe not though; before September 11, I felt little patriotism or love of my country within myself, as witness the fact that I've lived the past 30 years in Australia. And I thought I had become an Australian, by applying for and receiving Australian citizenship. Which made me a "dual" citizen, and I was fat & happy; a "citizen of the world," I considered myself. And then it happened.

But even though Australians were shocked and horrified, I felt different- than they seemed to feel- about what had occurred. And maybe I'm making this sound a little harsh, and I don't mean it to knock Australians, it's just that they're not... well, they're just not Americans, and they see things another way.

Many here in my neighborhood of Western Australia, once the initial shock was over, expressed feelings such as "That was really terrible, horrible, unbelievable... but after all, those Yanks asked for it." or "Let's keep out of it, who wants the whole world to hate us like they do America." Sometimes phrased very politely, very subtly, but still that feeling was there- that Americans had brought it all on themselves, just by being. How? Well, that was never exactly specified. I guess you're just supposed to know. The "peace" activists were very strong over here. (Thank God for Prime Minister John Howard, who I hadn't cared much for until then, and who has proved himself to be far wiser than me.)

And it was then that I realized that no matter how long I stay in Australia, no matter that I have become an Australian subject of Queen Elizabeth, own property here, have children here... I will never be Australian, for one simple reason.

I am an American.

Just an American. Born & bred and in my heart, it's part of me. I now know there ain't no such thing as dual loyalty, and I'm sorry that I was so complacent that it took something as awful as September 11 for me to realize that. But I know it now.

So maybe there is hope for the United States of America. even with all these problems.

After all, I'm a slow-learner, and it took an awful lot just to get my attention, then to realize where my right place was; but this thing called love of your country is catching on all over. After all, it's the best country on the planet, even with all its faults! And I'm sure I'm not the only one who is coming home at last. (And I'll be buying a gun as soon as I get there, what joy!)

Now I'll get back to making that list- and I'll look forward to CROSSING THINGS OFF!

Esky


___________________________________________________
sheesh... didn't mean to get all emotional there, hope you all had your hankies out

[spartacus2002]

So many things wrong.....where to start?

Education IS NOT what your kids will get at school.

Education is what YOU will teach them.

Shouldn't be like that, but there it is. I've resigned myself to the fact that my son (and future kids) won't learn a damn thing in school except how to parrot back the words they need for passing to next grade, how to score drugs, how to have sex, etc.

Why are we letting our schools turn into socialist indoctrination camps? I'm not being too extreme in calling them that; what would you call it when your first grader is told on the first day of school to turn in his extra pencils, his ruler, and his scissors so they can be stored for all to use? And if dumbass Johnny loses his ruler, why, the teacher will just give him yours!

I don't believe there is a mass communist conspiracy to turn kids into communists; however, we have to stand up for what we believe in, i.e., personal responsibility, self-discipline, private property, etc.

I think things are going to get very ugly very soon in America; between the out-of-control illegal alien situation, the spiraling deficits, and the coming police state, America is crashing down.

I'm a lawyer. I deal with laws and regulations every day. The amount of laws and regulations out there is staggering. Just one example: the "cliff notes" cheatbook for dealing with Merit Systems Protection Board is thicker than the Houston Phone Book. And that's just the cheatbook!

The system is staggering under its own weight.

[JohnBT]

It's still a great country.

Problems? We'll rise above them once again.

John

[longeyes]

Problems? We'll rise above them once again.

Isn't the issue who "we" will be when we do?

I'm afraid like spartacus I see some ugly times ahead. But the ugliness will be our friend too, because only by putting all that's going on today in bold relief, with dramatic consequences, are we likely to get the actions that can hope to reverse the current negative momentum (the "Big Mo?")

[tyme]

If only people would think about the reason for open records and apply that reasoning to unclassified government software...

[spartacus2002]

Well, I didn't want to get on a soapbox, but..........

The cause of liberty will only die if it is completely forgotten. It will survive so long as folks like us keep it alive, no matter what may come. But we have to educate others as well.

Teach your kids self-reliance. Teach them that bums are bums, not "homeless." Teach them illegal immigrants are not "undocumented workers." Teach them how to see thru the doublespeak.

Take a newbie shooting. Better yet, take a reporter shooting.

Get a CCW permit just because you can.

Stop watching TV; don't let the hairsprayheads in the haunted fishtank tell you what to think.

Read a book about the history of the American Revolution, especially the British excesses that led up to it (the general warrants, etc.). Then, look how the Bill of Rights was supposed to prevent those excesses.

Finally, ask yourself if you can distinguish between loving your country and unconditionally obeying your government.

[Med 10]

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

[Jim March]

"Infiltrate the school boards"?

:scrutiny:

Maybe. But I'd rather see vouchers and competition, myself. Turning an American school board pro-liberty, pro-BoR would be quite a trick :rolleyes:.

Free markets rule :D.

[wingman]

The systematic eradication of the Middle Class, not by design, but by indifference and greed.



Oatka, I agree with you more then I can
express, I grew up in the 40's/50's and
Have been witness to the decline in our
great country. I believe the public school
system and the media(especially tv) have
had the worse effect on our society the
past 40 years.

[spartacus2002]

There was a great article on Strike-The-Root.com about how watching TV atrophies the critical reasoning and logical analysis part of the brain.

[grampster]

Jim March:

"Infiltrate school boards". Precicely. You say "maybe". But consider this. School boards are in charge NOW of the infrastructure of our schools; both in real property and in philosophical direction. To unleash vouchers and competition merely adds another layer to the "Institutional Education System".

What I propose is to realize what exists and make it better. The left has done just that, according to their values (or lack of them) for the last 40 years. I propose we hijack it back from them and put it on OUR track rather than creating a whole new set of solutions that has a COST that competes with but has to also change "what is". I say be satisfied with changing "what is" and make the system work properly.

Nobody proposes that it will have instananeous completed results. It took forty years to muck it up.......It will take at least that long to put it on the right track.

As an old chinese man once said, "I don't build this railroad withany illusion that I will use it......I build it so my grandchildren can."

grampster

[Jim March]

Grampster:

I think you're underestimating the power of the teacher's unions. They are funded and organized nationally; try to reform any one school board, and a national-level-funded avalanche will be down on your head faster than you can say "touchy-feely".

Very concerted deliberated national force has been used to take over the schools. It's not accidental. The changes have been too fundamental and too widespread over too short a time period.

They ain't gonna give that up without a fight.

Go read Sun Tzu. Don't attack where an enemy is strong, flank his butt or otherwise attack where he's weak. Seek allies. In this case, your allies on vouchers are the various religious schools, who don't care much about freedom per se but care a lot about being able to teach kids the religion of the parent's choice. Instead of attacking the enemy's current stronghold, break down the educational system into a million little pieces via vouchers, reducing their control and allowing thousands of flank attacks.

Maximize freedom.

[S_O_Laban]

The hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world. Who is rocking your kids cradle? Sorry but don't know who to give credit to for the quote. Where is Pax when you need her,:D :D

[jimpeel]

Two words ... PATRIOT ACT.

[Cal4D4]

What we need is a "worm" planted in the system. Remember when various ethnic studies were added to the curriculum? Tremendous impact beyond course material. How about a mandatory course on traditional American ideals such as self reliance, work ethic and "sportsmanship". Discourage whining and blaming, encourage a little more "can do" attitude. In another thread, Boats rebutted the blame the lawyers refrain with "look in the mirror". Most unpleasantries are not the fault of LEOs, lawyers or corporate conniving. It's our own fault that public school dogma goes unchallenged if we spend all of our time chasing $$ or pleasure and neglect our kids.

[Giant]

Patriot Act! The United States of America exist only in memory. The Patriot Act has invalidated and superseded the Constitution and the BOR. Politicians justify passage of the Patriot Act through Congress, due to the fact they never read it, thus being able to say: "Had I known what it said, I never would have voted for it, since I did not know what it said I am blameless!"

In my opinion, soon people will be picked up for questioning and never be heard from again. There will be an attempt to confiscate all firearms. There will be a bloody and protracted civil war between the government far left communist and conservative patriot citizens.

My opinion, based on sixty years of observation and current events.

Giant

[spartacus2002]

In my opinion, soon people will be picked up for questioning and never be heard from again.

Hello everybody, already happening!!! Go do a google search for Mike Hawash. Don't forget Jose Padilla.

Combine that with the Martinez case, where the cops shot the guy for running away, paralyzed and blinded him, refused to read him his Miranda rights, rode in the ambulance and went into the operating room coercing him to falsely confess to something that would justify them shooting him. Supreme Court said SURPRISE! No 5th Amendment violation!

Police state....

[longeyes]

Walt Whitman is the man, he suffered, he was there.

Jim March:

Vouchers are a good path. Complete state insolvency may be a precipitating force.

[longeyes]

Whitman may have been quoting another. For there is this:

The Hand That Rocks The Cradle
Is The Hand That Rules The World

Blessings on the hand of women!
Angels guard its strength and grace,
In the palace, cottage, hovel,
Oh, no matter where the place;
Would that never storms assailed it,
Rainbows ever gently curled;
For the hand that rocks the cradle
Is the hand that rules the world.

Infancy's the tender fountain,
Power may with beauty flow,
Mother's first to guide the streamlets,
From them souls unresting grow--
Grow on for the good or evil,
Sunshine streamed or evil hurled;
For the hand that rocks the cradle
Is the hand that rules the world.

Woman, how divine your mission
Here upon our natal sod!
Keep, oh, keep the young heart open
Always to the breath of God!
All true trophies of the ages
Are from mother-love impearled;
For the hand that rocks the cradle
Is the hand that rules the world.

Blessings on the hand of women!
Fathers, sons, and daughters cry,
And the sacred song is mingled
With the worship in the sky--
Mingles where no tempest darkens,
Rainbows evermore are hurled;
For the hand that rocks the cradle
Is the hand that rules the world.

William Ross Wallace

[grampster]

Jim March:

I agree with you about competition and vouchers being the weakness to be exploited in order to reign in the Institutional Public Schools. But......We had an election in Michigan last year and the voucher question was overwhelmingly defeated, mainly due to the sheeple not wanting to rock the boat, find out the truth and the Institutional System relating vouchers to a system of education that steals your tax dollars for profit (horror of horrors) that is inhabited by children and teacher haters that probably eat human flesh while crouching over a smoky fire behind their garages. That is why I propose consideration of a quiet and insidious attack on the Left Wing school boards and school boards that are rubber stamps for Left Wing administrators who are the tail that wags the dog. Slowly but surely mount a quiet attack(tht may take decades) which reinstitutes curriculum that is meaningful and actually prepares students for the future.
For example, here in my school district a handful of us were able to defeat 4 millage elections for un needed buildings. In the end in exchange for our support for a building project we were able to shed a superintendent that was a moron, get a commitment to enhance the curriculum to put a focus on life skills such as the trades, music, art, and basic skills such as cooking, mending, child care, and manual arts that are handy to life, starting at the 6th grade level, creating and expanding our shop program in the highschool so the 8th graders who became involved with the expanded life skills curriculum could segue into a continuance of those skills till the 11th grade where the county intermediate ed program picked up these kids. In other words, we could actually graduate nearly journeymen tradesmen, male or female who also had an appreciation for music and art and could cook and keep a house. Only about 30% of our kids were going to college, so why have a college prep program be our focus. An 6th grade class of 100 kids would graduate about half of them through attrition due to pregnancy, drugs, crime and apathy. Maybe we could keep their interest somehow and give them something to look forward to each day and maybe even some of them will actually come to appreciate education and go on to higher levels. The program will start next fall when the new Jr. High, where this program will reside, is fully operational. Out next step is to try and replace some school board members who should not be in the position they are in as they bring nothing but pacifism to the table.
We'll see.

grampster

[Boats]

Civilization has been in decline since it started.:rolleyes:

This thread reminds me of a song I used to love in the 80s. It is by the Dead Kennedys who were about a proto-communist as one could find in the punk music scene. However, this song makes them seem like prescient social commentators:

"This Could Be Anywhere (This Could Be Everywhere)" 1985

Cold concrete apartments
Rise up from wet black asphalt
Below them a few carcasses
Of the long gone age of privacy.

It takes a scary kind of illness
To design a place like this for pay.
Downtown's an endless generic mall
Of video games and fast food chains.

One by one
The little houses are bricked up and condemned.
A subtle hint to move
Before the rats move in.

This could be anywhere
This could be everywhere
[Repeat]

Those new kids at school seem cool
But dad says not to talk to them.
Stick to your old friends
They're not our kind.
So now there's lots of fights.

So many people I know
Come of age tense and bitter-eyed.
Can't create so they just destroy
C'mon!
Let's set someone's dog on fire!

Empty plastic, culture slum,
suburbia's a war zone now.
Sprouting the kinds of gangs
We thought we'd left behind.

This could be anywhere
This could be everywhere
[Repeat]

Kids at school are taking sides
along color and uniform lines.
My dad's gone and bought a gun.
He says he's fed up
With crime in this town.

This could be anywhere
This could be everywhere
This could be anywhere
This could be everywhere
Anywhere
Everywhere!

I hope I'm gone before it explodes .
I linger late at night, waiting for the bus
No amount of neon jazz
could hide the oozing vibes--
of death.

Dad's a vigilante now.
He's bringing home these weird-a$$ friends.
Like the guy who fires blanks at his TV
when Kojak's on.
Or the guy who shows off his submachine gun
to his sixteen-year-old daughter's friends.
Whose sense of pride and hope
is being in the police reserve

This could be anywhere
This could be everywhere-Everywhere

---------------------

I am considerably to the right of these guys now, but there is something to their diatribe against corporatism, close-mindedness, racial division, mutual suspicion, and nihilism in our society.

[Zander]

The single biggest issue is how public schools are being turned into socialist indoctrination camps. Precisely!

The most pernicious ideology these days is that any idea is inherently valid; IOW, because it contributes to "diversity" or "multiculturalism". Without contradiction, there are certain ideas/propaganda that should be dismissed with prejudice.

These given ideologies should not be accorded consideration...much less sanction as they are inimical to a free society.

[12.7x99mm]

I'm happy do see the corruption of the democratic-liberal-socialist agendas being unearthed.

I really dislike liberals.

:cool:

[gburner]

porous borders
rampant moral relativism
taxation without representation
socialist indoctrination of schools
culture of victimhood
propaganda under the guise of free press
erosion of civil liberties
not one good domestic beer

other than that, everything is just peachy.

[jimpeel]

[NPR community college voice]Good evening ladies and gentlemen and welcome to "The Poetry Corner".[/NPR community college voice]

[grampster]

I have gone back and carefully reviewed this entire thread. I have studied and pondered. ( spent an especially long period re reading my own magnificent wisdom).

My conclusion is as follows:

gburner has it wrapped up in one sentence......"Not one good domestic beer".

grampster :neener: :evil:

[pax]

SO Laban,

And the hand that rocks the cradle
Is the hand that rules the world. -- William Ross Wallace (1819–1881) It's from a poem titled, What Rules the World?

***

I haven't participated in this thread because it's too durn depressing. Where to start?

PATRIOT Act, wars on nouns, the utter disregard for the charter of our country's existence, the meaninglessness of the Bill of Rights, government with fewer and fewer restraints and safeguards, the large number of citizens who are proud of their utter ignorance of history.

We've torn down nearly every wall that was put in place to keep government in its place, but we somehow still think It Can Never Happen Here. Oh, my people ...

pax

Posterity! You will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom! I hope you will make good use of it! If you do not, I shall repent in Heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it! -- John Quincy Adams