[starfuryzeta]

An interesting concept, if it can be done. Site includes a picture of the envisioned outfit.

http://www.rednova.com/news/stories/3/2003/06/01/story001.html

[Andrew Wyatt]

!http://www.rednova.com/news/images/3/2003/06/01/soldier_2big_future_scorpion-ensemble.jpg


neat! the US finally has its own sand troopers!

[George Hill]

I was just going to post this!

:scrutiny: Your a Farker, arn't you?

15 Billion.

15 BILLION!

Senator Robert "KKK" Byrd must be in on this deal.

[George Hill]

I love the "NOT ANOTHER M-16" rifle.

[jsalcedo]

Looks like a mighty morphin power ranger in desert camo

[Skunkabilly]

Sand people ride their Hummers in single file to hide their numbers.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'd so join the army if i could wear that, though.

[mons meg]

How do you get a cheek weld on your rifle in that getup? ;) Seriously, though...I remember shooting a live fire course at Lejeune with the "old" gas masks. I had to lay my head over 90 degrees to get a sight picture!

[Skunkabilly]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=304659

[mons meg]

Just curious, Skunk...but what is the CF content of your weapon there?

[Andrew Wyatt]

after looking at the equipment, I've come up with several critiques and conclusions.


1. the tac gear is MOLLE 2 and has a belt. it will not work well with a backpack. (this is bad)

2. the shoes are commercially available mountaineering shoes. not enough ankle support, wring color, but still a step in the right direction. fill sized roughouts would be better.

3. the intigrated elbow and knee support is a step in the right direction.


4. the helmet looks nice. possible hearing protector/hearing amplification gear. needs more chin cutout for weapon stock placement.


5. the rifle has no sights.

6. an M4 would work just fine with that, and would be less fragile and cost less than a SABR.

7. it needs a big, black Imperial symbol on the forehead of the helmet.

8. the helmet needs to be in coyote brown.

[Nightcrawler]

How do you get a cheek weld on your rifle in that getup?

Don't think it matters, as that weapon has no provision for aiming anyways.

I have a question. What's it going to be like wearing a full motorcycle-style helmet in 100+ degree desert heat? Or in a hot, steamy, humid jungle someplace?

Your skin has to get some air, it really does. Does this helmet have the gas mask fully integrated in it? If so, I certainly hope they've improved the airflow. The M40 gas mask restricts your airflow that a lot of laborious activity can wear you out REAL fast.

If it doesn't incorporate chemical protection (I refuse to call it "NBC" protection like the Army does, as the gas mask is NOT going to help you against biological agents, and it's certainly not going to stop radiation.), will there be a super-high tech gas mask to go along with it? I imagine so, though hopefully the gas masks will never need to be used. Chemical warfare is incredibly rare; with luck it just won't happen at all. Biological warfare is a pandora's box I'd just as soon leave closed.

Anyways, lots of good ideas being tossed around, especially the tracking of the soldiers on the battlefield (I like THAT idea a lot better than another one I heard that involved planting chips in the GIs' skin). The tourniquets...I don't know how well that'd work. You only put on a tourniquets as an absolute last resort to stop the bleeding; if it's on too long you can lose a limb. (Granted, limb loss is generally preferable to bleeding to death, but this system is not going to replace the tried and true battlefield medic).

I especially like the infrared cameras and stuff built into the helmet. If they can pull that off and make it reliable it'll be a HUGE tactical advantage.

I'm disappointed that they're insisting on going ahead with the OICW weapons system, though. They need to scrap that design and start from scratch. Oh, and let the private companies develop it, and not use so many taxpayer dollars.

[George Hill]

Looks like you might be able to raise the face plate up or something. Built in comms probably. I like it... looks cool. But it doesn't mean I would want to fight in it.
Ever play paintball wearing a goggle mask system? Fog. Your goggles fog up badly unless you have a lot of ventalation and a built in fan or a lot of ventalation, a really good design, and lens coatings. (Like in my V-Force Shield mask)

This is pretty much nothing more than an "Artists Conception". What I am wondering is where does the 15 BILLION FREAKING DOLLARS GO? I'm not seeing anything near that kind of spending. Most of that kit is off the shelf.
What I would like know is, what is up with that rifle? Is that a real rifle prototype or just a toy? If it is a real rifle prototype, where are the sights?

15 Billion... Judas Priest! Billion! 15 of them! That's like a whole freaking squadron of F-15 Eagles... or one V-22 Osprey. :rolleyes: Military spending is out of control. Sorry, but it is. They are wanting to replace the A-10, develope the Osprey, OICW, the Stryker LAV III rolling Infantry Coffin... and now this.

I have a better idea... how about the Army just buy Blackhawk gear and be done with it?

[Nightcrawler]

Paintball masks fog up? Hell, Army-issue Birth Control Glasses fog up on the rifle range. At least mine did, every single time. :o

[BenW]

I have a question. What's it going to be like wearing a full motorcycle-style helmet in 100+ degree desert heat? Or in a hot, steamy, humid jungle someplace?
Pretty comfortable I would guess, if it has self-contained climate control. :)

[Don Gwinn]

My God, this is SO wrong. . . . .
G.I. Joe can't wear a C.O.B.R.A. uniform!

[SquirrelNuts]

I knew that Skunkabilly would be all over this...

-SquirrelNuts

[Bowlcut]

DOC is right...what are they thinking....and its susposed to be Blue or Crimson colored.

and 15 billion dollars...come over my place ill show you how to spend that on ebay and amazon.com :D

[owen]

There are no sights on the gun because they are not required. The sights are a cursor that is projected on the insode of the mask. Some versions I have read about will project the guns view onto the mask. Just switch modes, stick the gun around the corner, over the wall, whatever, aim, and shoot. The helmet has built in, active, circulation.

In addition, the military is moving towards using autonomous, cross country robots as equipment haulers. This summer, there is going to be a race, from Vegas to Yuma, IIRC for robots capable of carrying 2000 pounds of equipment. No human intervention or refueling allowed. The race will be continued annually, until teams start to finish it.

I love ARMY magazine.

[George Hill]

Robot races?
This better not be Pentagon Funded.
:rolleyes:

Wake me up when they start shooting eachother, and or start hunting humans.

[starfuryzeta]

Your a Farker, arn't you?

Um, guilty as charged! :p

Now, the article mentioned the XM29 weapon system? I'm assuming that is new name for the OICW?

[Andrew Wyatt]

Robot races? This better not be Pentagon Funded.


yeah, you're right. the pentagon has no reason to spend money on projects that might benefit more than just the military.

:rolleyes:

[Wayne D]

8. the helmet needs to be in coyote brown.

The shoes don't match either!

[owen]

From what I could tell, the robots are privately funded, and the governments costs are all related to the evaluation, and administration of the race.

Currently, less than one third of the Army is directly combat related. A tremendous number of soldiers are truck drivers, and not much else. A robot that can transport supplies cross country would be a boon.

Owen

[George Hill]

No Wyatt... because we don't need to spend 100 billion dollars to do what a guy in a freaking Jeep can do for almost nothing.

I don't want my tax dollars paying for BS like that. I really and truly don't.
I'd rather that money go to things like:
1. A real living wage for soldiers.
US Trooper's families should not have to be on food stamps. That is asinine.
2. Better equipment for Guard and Reserve units.
I've seen a lot of Guard units using Vietnam issued hardware. Trailers, Guns, LBE, and sundry other items.
3. Better medical training for anyone that responds to the call of "Medic". These guys should all be virtual surgeons... not just some of the special ones. There is no reason they shouldn't be.
4. Give pilots more flight hours. Air Force pilots don't get enought hours behind the stick... I have talked to many jet jockeys that complain of this. I am told Reserve pilots get more hours for some reason.
5. Infantry should be given a lot more live fire trigger time, and courses by serious instructors... not just the Delta and SEAL teams.
6. US Infantry soldiers should be armed with absolutely the best weapons available... not a rifle that is the oldest rifle in service next to some poor countries that still issue the AK and FAL. These poor third world countries are the only ones still issuing these old designs. All the other 1st world nations are all using new modern designs.

I can think of a LOT of things to spend money on. Robotic Trucks are not one of them. What a freaking waste that is. These robots will still have to be loaded and unloaded by people... and even protected by people. What are they saving by not having a human driver? It's BS. Humans can be aware of and react with decision making skills based upon experience and training that a robot can't do. So in the end, I believe even a successful robot will still be 2nd or even third rate compaired to even the most stupid red neck truck driver from West Virginia.
Gimme a red neck with a shotgun over a smart robot ANYDAY to deliver my equipment, and spend the hundreds of billions of dollars saved on something more important... like maybe training and educating the redneck and taking care of his family.

Just think about that greater good.

[owen]

somehow, i think having less people getting shot at is for the greater good. Blowing up a robot truck, no biggie, it only costs money. Blowing up Bubba, while driving the truck? That is a real expense. Why use people when there is no need to put them in harms way?

[Nightcrawler]

Pretty comfortable I would guess, if it has self-contained climate control.

And how much is all of this going to WEIGH? You don't want an eleven pound helmet, you really and truly don't.

I'm all for modernizing, but I have to agree with George that we need to tie up a bunch of loose ends first.

And, much of this equipment needs to be micronized before it's ready to hit the battlefield. The OICW, for instance, needs a few more years more development, micronization before it's ready to be issued. And I'm going to keep saying they need more development until they ditch the 10" barreled SMG part and either attach the grenade launcher to an actual rifle or make it a stand-alone unit.

As for the target cursor in the helmet...seems to me that would do about the same thing that a laser sight would; slow down your target acquistion.

And besides that, if you lose power, you can't aim your weapon?? This is the same problem that the OICW has; no way to aim without batteries. At least slap a crude set of irons on there, or a tritium dot sight, or SOMETHING not dependent on batteries.

[winstonsmith]

Nightcrawler: I beleive the bottom of the OICW is an H&K G36 Assault Rifle, or at least a mutation there of.

http://www.hkpro.com/oicw.htm

You are correct about the 10 inch barrel though. That does seem a little short.

[Andrew Wyatt]

i've seen the "robotic trucks: of which you speak, and they're not HEMTTs or anything.

they're jeep sized vehicles that are designed to support platoon and squad sized units.


as for the training stuff, and gear modernization, of course i'd like to see everyone in the army with shiney new kit and the training for it. will it happen even if they don't spend money on new tech? probably not. that's how the military works, unfortunately.


sure, the basic design of the m-16 is old, but in the current iterations it's arguably the best rifle if its kind in the world. (look which rifle wins the match more.)

[Nightcrawler]

The only thing the 5.56mm round has going for it, ballistics-wise, is velocity. It does not fire a big bullet, nor does it fire a heavy bullet. Whether for armor penetration or the desired fragmentation (this is not so desired, though, as a fragmenting bullet is poor at penetrating cover), velocity is required.

So what do you get when you take a 5.56mm rifle, even a good one like the G36, and give it about half the barrel length it needs for optimum effeciency on the battlefield?

That's why I called it a submachine gun. 5.56mm + 10" barrel = close quarters battle use only, in my opinion.

[George Hill]

I don't want our warriors looking like Power Rangers while Aberdene Proving Grounds tries to turn warfare into a video game. This a not just retarded - but a huge drain on our money.
I'd rather give everyone in the service WWII gear and train them to be devils than a have them be so high tech and sterile that they can't even tollerate being cussed at.

And really, who need to be able to blast a tiny charge over the top of a wall - when you can just blow through the freaking wall with an AT-4?
Or better yet - train grenadiers with the M-203 better! Why don't they train these guys better? "Oh, well, we only have so much funding for... blah blah blah blah" Spend a few bucks so GI-Joe knows how to drop a 40MM in the enemy's lap and you wont have to spend MILLIONS AND MILLIONS so we can electronically pop a tiny 20MM charge up above the enemy's head.

I swear... when Ft. Benning tore down Harmony Church they buried their balls.
:cuss:

[Horsesense]

Say what you want about us Rednecks but if the end of the world as we know it happens, Rednecks and roaches will be left to repopulate the earth. :)

[Destructo6]

Yep, XM29 is the new name for the OICW.

http://www.atk.com/productsPrecision/descriptions/products/Shoulder-firedWeapons/XM29.htm

http://www.atk.com/productsPrecision/descriptions/products/Shoulder-firedWeapons/images/Block-3-Model.jpg

And the bottom still is a modified G36 to my knowledge.

[Nightcrawler]

Look at the length of pull on that thing. Wow. I'm 6'2" tall and *I* think that'd be uncomfortable.

Looks like the rifle still separates from the GL. If it's anything like the earlier prototypes, separation will leave you with a 10" barreled 5.56mm SMG with no stock and no sights, and a big grenade launcher that you can't use.

[arinvolvo]

Damn Skunk...you totally beat me to it...I was just going to post that Skunk is going to have to start saving his money.

[George Hill]

Looks like they slicked it up and reduced some of the dimensions. However they didn't reduce it enough... I don't know how many people will be able to shoulder it and reach the trigger. *sigh* Still retarded and under powered, still dependant upon batteries, and still too big, heavy and awkward. I fully stand behind my opinion regarding the M203. And here is a big factor in the M-203's favor... The M203 doesn't really have a minimum range other than safe grenade distance... You can thump a target 50 meters away if you wanted to and throw them out to 400 meters. The XM-29's minimum range is 300 Meters. Most firefights happen inside 300 meters. This means you'll never be able to fire your grenades. So you big bad bulky POS weapon is useless and you will be stuck with the little 10 inch barreled .223 rifle. That is so freaking useless. 5.56MM NATO rounds are already woefully lacking. Out of the 14 inch barrels of the M4 carbines they are only barely doing the job. Now your going to chop off another 4 inches of barrel... dropping the velocity by about another 200 FPS? You've just turned that weapon into a short range gun. And if your going to be stuck at short range... you would be better off firing 9MM out of that little submachinegun. They say that the XM-29 is so easy to use and how fast it is. 3 easy steps... 1. Lase, 2. Aim, 3. Fire. Wrong. That's a lie. It's more complicated than that. Here is the order of things... 1. Aim, 2. Lase, 3. Adjust the computer's range to detonate the shell where you want it to explode in relationship to the range of the target you lased, 4. Re-aim to a different point of aim so the shell explodes over what you were wanting to hit, 5. Then you can fire. I think there is a big difference here in what they are telling people and what the grunt will actually have to be doing to make it really work. And what if you don't get a good laser bounce? This is sometimes a problem with laser rangefinders. So what if your trooper has to lase something, then try to figure out what the range is relative to what he just lased to where he wants to hit... Guys, I'm telling you - this isn't that easy point and click stuff like in a video game. Check this out... if you want to know kinda what this is like, you can play a "simulation" of it. This will give you a rough idea what it's like... Soldier of Fortune II. It has the OICW system and the targeting ranging is modeled pretty much how it's supposed to work. Since I have no access to the real OICW system, my opinions are based on this, and my experiences with laser devices... I might be wrong, but you can call this an educated assumption based on related experiences. My conclusion is that the OICW or XM-29 system isn't as fast or as easy to use as is claimed and this makes it not as far as advanced as claimed over a skilled M-203 gunner. *hand raised in the back of the room* Yes? "Uh, what about the laser in fog or smoke?" *suddenly 3 big goons come out of nowhere to drag the questioner out of the room* "Any other questions? No?" My conclusion is that the XM-29 sucks and needs further development. It needs to be smaller, lighter, bigger more powerful warhead, and not dependant upon a computer system and a laser. Oh, one question for the XM-29 team... Do you have 20MM flare rounds and buckshot rounds like the M-203 has? Are there 20MM training grenades for this system? And what is the cost of these 20MM rounds over the cost of a 40MM round? I think the XM-29 needs to go back to the drawing board. It's not ready to be fielded yet.

[George Hill]

You can thump a target 50 meters away if you wanted to and throw them out to 400 meters.
I'm talking about firing the grenade at a high trajectory and not direct fire at this range.

[starfuryzeta]

Wouldn't it be better to dedicate an entire rifle to the new 20mm system? So, maybe one or two gunners in the squad has the 20mm launcher, the rest have the nice, new, H&K rifle that the lower part is supposed to be.

[MrAcheson]

15 Billion...

The ensemble will plug the soldier into the military's planned Future Combat System, for which the Pentagon recently earmarked $15 billion to develop.

So FCS is costing the military 15 billion. Not the stupid Cobra Trooper getup.

[Destructo6]

The XM-29's minimum range is 300 Meters.
ATK's site says the optimal range is 300 meters. It states no minimum range, but seems to imply it can do everything the M203 can, plus go out to 500+ meters.

The above is the "Block 3" Objective Force Warrior model. This is the "Block 1" Land Warrior model:
http://www.atk.com/productsPrecision/descriptions/products/Shoulder-firedWeapons/images/XM29_Block1.jpg

The comparison table shows that 40 rounds of the new 20mm ammo weighs 10lbs, while 18 rounds of M203 weighs around 9lbs+.

George, my understanding on how it's used (mainly from watching Mail Call and HKPRO) is that the 3 buttons on the side of the gripframe do the programming. One button ('*') lases the target, then the other two buttons, marked '+' and '-', add or subtract one meter from the range determined by the laser. If you have a window and want to take out the guys inside, you lase the windowframe, hit the '+' button once or twice so it detonates inside the room, then fire. That's it.

[raz-0]

Just for info, here is the black version with 70% more sinister per square inch. also looks like it'd be impossible to look up properly (or sight while prone) in the black helmet)

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/2002091434/www.wired.com/news/images/full/nanotech1_f.jpg

[George Hill]

About the minimal range, I stand corrected... It isn't 300 meters...
But I do remember reading someplace that there is a minimal range... so I guess I made an error when I saw 300 Meters.

I think the round has a place... and I like the OICW's Brother... the gun to replace the M2 .50 and the Mk 19:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002infantry/edwards.pdf
This PDF makes a good case for it. I think as a crew served system it can really come into it's own.
I don't think I like the idea of it replacing the M2. Extreme range and heavy penetration is something I don't think this new system is capable of.
http://www.filmklubb.no/zfilm/498/starship07.jpg
Hmmm... with the added sinister... this should be 105% effective over the old and busted brown, which is only 100% effective.
(refrencing the Taser thread - joking)

[AJ Dual]

Just for info, here is the black version with 70% more sinister per square inch

ROTFL.

Some of this stuff will be useful someday, but it's the materials science that's lacking.

Give the suit a reliable power supply, perhaps photovoltaic cloth that's backed up with a bullet-proof (in the reliability sense)butane fuel-cell module that's good for about 100 hours, is temperature self-regulating, transpires persperation, but is also rain-proof better than Gore-Tex, is fully NBC capable, wired with medical diagnosics, is fragment and really bullet proof, say carbon nano-tubes or synth spider silk, and weighs less than what our guys carry/wear now...

Perhaps you'd have something.

Although, while I can't speak to the OICW as a platform, I have to second the concept of 20mm airbusting munitions. Impact-fuzed 40mm wastes up to half it's fragmentation directly into the ground. The smaller air-bursting grenades are much more efficient for their size.

[2nd Amendment]

I sort of like this in a Revolution sense. Let things break down here at home in whatever form that provokes a revolution and then imagine the government fielding these things against the citizenry. Imagine the supply lines necessary to keep this working, and how useless it becomes when the batteries go bad, the trucks don't run, the battle lasts too long in mountainous/remote country...

Superior technology is not necessarily a bad thing for the underdog. :D

[George Hill]

Say that to the Republican Guard.

[arinvolvo]

Were getting warmer.

http://a1259.g.akamai.net/f/1259/5586/1d/images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10056000/10056279.jpg

[Andrew Wyatt]

So, why is everyone upset that they're trying to reduce a soldier's fighting load, give him better armor, comms and sensors, while reducing the number of troops needed to fight battles?

besides, it looks like every soldier will finally have eye and ear protection. that's one hell of a step forward.

[Deadman]

One problem that this type of extra high tech gear misses is that the enemies of the U.S.A won't necessarily bother to fight conventional wars anymore. After the surprising and quick defeat of the Iraqi army, NBC weaponry is far more attractive to rogue nations and/or terrorists.
Granted there are certain reasons why Iraq fell so quickly (the Iraqi soldiers lack of will to fight for eg.), and although nations like N.Korea and Iran might last longer in a war, they will still lose in the end if they don't utilise NBC weaponry.
And lets not forget the potential to castrate all these high tech 'toys' with an E.M.P. blast.


As some here have already alluded to I'd say the most effective use for these next-gen combat suits will be in a police/peace keeping role.

[Combat-wombat]

That scares me that the military will soon be 10 times more ahead of us in weaponry.

[mons meg]

That scares me that the military will soon be 10 times more ahead of us in weaponry.

The deadliest weapon on the battlefield is one well-aimed round. Thus spake mine PMI at Camp Pendleton. Well, him and a lot of other dudes.

[George Hill]

What upsets me is that they are blowing 15 billion on developing this new kit.

Come on...

That is blowing money way out of proportion for developing some clothes. And all the other gadgets? This stuff is already out there. It's all off the shelf. But they are spending 15 Billion to develope it?

Maybe - MAYBE - 15 million to develope it. But BILLION?

Do you realize - seriously now - do you fathom how much a Billion is?

[Andrew Wyatt]

what proportion of the army budget is that? how many new technologies will enter the market place because of it?

how many lives will it save?


hell, if they just adopt the part of the uniform shown without any of the electronics it'll be a step forward.

[George Hill]

Yes, I am sure being a snappy dresser will save lives and will be well worth 15 Billion.


:rolleyes:


And it has nothing to do with % of the budget. It's still 15 Billion that didn't need to be spent. I'd rather spend that wee little drop in the bucket on other things... more important things.
Like Pay and Benifits to Soldiers. Like Training... Like almost anything else.
For example Master Wyatt... did you know that if you serve your country and do so honorably... you only have 10 years to take advantage of your GI Bill benifits? 10 Years starting on your DAY 1 in the service. So if you serve 8 full time... you are down to 2 years to finish school. Nice. Something they kinda forget to mention to you at the recruitment station isn't it? I was thinking it was 10 years after your discharge. Nope. A little more funding there wouldn't hurt would it? Allow the troops to get schooling when they want it and need it... not with some jerk-off time limit.
:banghead:
It would be worth 15 Billion if the Military didn't screw over everyone every chance it got. All of my friends who have served - ALL OF THEM - have been hosed by the DOD at one point or another. Just take care of the soldiers... seriously. They deserve better. Who cares if they don't look like extras from Mighty Morphin Power Rangers?

[Andrew Wyatt]

did you notice that that gucci kit had intigrated knee and elbow pads, pockets on the shoulders, and shin protection?

the rest of the gear, except for the helmet is current issue MOLLE II.


how many people have been modding BDU so they have knee and elbow protection and reachable bockets?


the army won't spend money on training. if they're not using ot to develop new crap, they'll use it to buy lav3 strykers or something.

[jsalcedo]

As long as the knee padded pants don't include a rear access zipper. Then that would make the uniform truly 21st century.

[igor]

No matter all the hi-tech, the grunt still needs to take the occasional dump.

[Deadman]

That is blowing money way out of proportion for developing some clothes. And all the other gadgets? This stuff is already out there. It's all off the shelf. But they are spending 15 Billion to develope it?


George although I don't necessarily want to type this, as I've already made far to many 1984/Orwellian references on TFL and THR, but what about pertetual warfare and the economic drain it had on 1984 society?:confused:

[2nd Amendment]

Say that to the Republican Guard.- George Hill

I don't quite see how the Republican Guard, fighting in open warfare toe-to-toe in a relatively limited area and being conscripts and largely demoralized and against a well supplied technologically advanced force with effective supply lines compares to my hypothetical of an advanced technological force fighting their own people in a guerrilla style war over a vast area and lacking effective supply lines plus all the other myriad problems of loss of morale etc that would go along with it. Apples and oranges comparison. (And how was that for a run-on sentence? :D)

[dev_null]

What good is all this %$#@! if the software is made by Micro$oft and crashes whenever you need it most?

I can see it now:

"Ferguson! Lay down cover fire!"
"Can't, sarge! System's rebooting again!"

:rolleyes:

- V -

[Country Boy]

Seven Syllables that have already been mentioned: Electro Magnetic Pulse
I can't say with certainty that we have the capability to fry circuits with a burst of energy, but I would bet that we are exploring the option. Anything that runs on electricity is bound to fail sooner or later. Anything that has computer programming is also bound to fail sooner rather than later. I have no problem with people exploring technologies, that's smart. But to spend that much money with that little thinking is asinine.

Soldiers used to fear enemy bullets. Soon they will fear magnets.

[raz-0]

the 15 billion price tag is for the whole program, of which the uniform is a small part.