Tell me about the 91/59 Mosin Nagant


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Bjg0082
January 24, 2007, 11:17 PM
I see these every once and a while, and I've always wanted to pic up a mosin. I hear a rumor they're a bit more accurate than 44's and 38's and if so I think it'd be about what I want.

So what can you guys tell me about the 91/59 mosin. And Yes I've used the search feature.

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fal 4 me
January 24, 2007, 11:24 PM
I believe the 91/59 is a 91/30 cut down to carbine configuration. As to them being more accurate, I've never shot one, just the 91/30 and m44.

CU74
January 24, 2007, 11:31 PM
I will be interested in following this thread, because I have never heard of a 91/59 Mosin Nagant. I looked in my copy of "The Mosin-Nagant Rifle" and couldn't find any reference to a 91/59, (admittedly, I didn't search too hard).

Could this be the Finnish M39? It's a redesign of the Finn Mosin.

dstorm1911
January 24, 2007, 11:34 PM
as the man said they are a cut down 91/30, the sights were recalibrated for the shorter barrel, as far as accuracy......... thats gonna depend on the particular rifle itself..... I've seen 91/30 REAL snipers that coudn't group 3 shots in the same range lane let alone the same zip code, the rifles accuracy is only gonna be as good as the components will allow. Seein as how almost every m38 was counterbored, comparing accuracy to these is out, the m44 isn't really anything spectacular for accuracy, now consider that the twist rate used was based on the original leangth of the barrel (something bubba never thinks about when he starts to sawin) and it was based on the rifle useing heavy ball ammo, so if ya go shooting powder puff light loads your probably not gonna get the same accuracy as the guy usein heavy ball outa the same rifle... the Russians did actually use balistic engineers to design their rifles even though it may seem like they were built by over worked patato farmers :D


No this is not a fin 39, go to gunboards.com go to the collector forum, much more Mosin nagant info there than available here, There is considerable debate on exactly how these rifles came to exist..... obviously the collectors want to believe they are for real made back in the 60s 70s as make work projects I believe differently........ for refference please see my last post in the "mosin nagant sniper" thread in this forum........

Ad Astra
January 25, 2007, 12:00 AM
My local GS had some... claimed to be a MN 91/30 cut down in 1959 for export use. Accuracy claim is from cutting/recrowning which gets rid of the counterbored muzzle section. I passed on 'em- overpriced MN.

270Win
January 25, 2007, 12:24 AM
Seein as how almost every m38 was counterbored, comparing accuracy to these is out

?

DMK
January 25, 2007, 09:03 AM
They mostly look like an M38 except for the rear sight.

As far as the 91/59 being more accurate on average, if this is true, I suspect it having to do with the fact that all 91/59s are very late rebuilds (starting around 1959) and are therefore more carefully done. They do on average seem to be in better condition than M38s. Some late M44s though are just as nice if not nicer.

The higher price is most likely due to rarity. They aren't nearly as common as M38s, M44s or 91/30s. I picked up three for about $70 each maybe three years ago.

More comparison pics here (http://home.mchsi.com/~davidkoch/carbines/).

http://home.mchsi.com/~davidkoch/carbines/Carbines04.JPG
The M38 (top) has a short carbine sight and long top handguard. The 91/59 (bottom) has the longer rifle sight that has the distance markings above 1K milled off and a shorter top handguard. The rear sight notch is still the same distance from the eye on both carbines.

dstorm1911
January 25, 2007, 10:02 AM
270 WIN, when the m38s were counterbored it was done as an actual "make work" Counterboring can improve accuracy OR it can destroy it, many m38s as a result are minute of hillside guns, thing is, most had absolutally nothing wrong with them before they were counterbored....... When a rifle is counterbored it must also be recrowned at the counterbore, these were not they were basically just drilled back an inch or two (yea I'v seen a bunch of em counterbored back 2 inches) its a shame but the thing about communists countries, everyone must have a job...... no welfare system so the armories were the largest employers...


As far as the year of manufacture, the 91/59s were not "made" in 1959, they are older 91/30s that were already in the arsenal, these were then cut down to carbine leangth.

If I can get my puter to working correctly at some point today I will be able to provide more detail, right now the damage done by it getting trojaned and wormed etc.. is that while I try to type my curser suddenly starts jumping around in the stuff already written...... it makes it very difficult to write as I have to keep re-editing, this took 8 minutes to type!!

Red Tornado
January 25, 2007, 10:26 AM
I've always thought they were interesting, but have never actually seen one. Nothing to add, just getting subscribed to this thread.
RT

MJ
January 25, 2007, 10:54 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/bkt022.jpg

Shot one and zeroed it with the front post and with a six o'clock hold on a std 100 yard target it was close to the center just a bit high. Gave it as a gift the hoiday and still have two unfired ones. I think we used Norinco ball in brass cases, 147g bullets.

MJ

270Win
January 25, 2007, 01:30 PM
My question mark was because of the statement "comparing accuracy to these is out."

I have a counterbored, recrowned M38 that is VERY accurate (posted about it recently) and I've yet to meet one that wasn't capable of, say, 4" at 100.

In fact, I've done quite a bit of reading on the various Mosins all across the web and in print, and handled probably a hundred here and there, and I've never heard, read or experienced that the rearsenaling procedure for M38s made them less accurate.

I'm going to have to disagree on this one.

dstorm1911
January 25, 2007, 02:56 PM
270 win, the key is in if the counterbore was done correctly, I've got 3 (so far) that escaped rearsenalling and therefore never got counterbored, I shoot them occasionally but as all 3 are not import marked in original non-rearsenaled condition with nice shiny bores I don't shoot em often, This morning I got a 1943 out and took it out to the range behind my house and set it up on bags, with handloads it will shoot right with my Fin m39 running around 2" at 100 yards... One of the 3 was recrowned due to an impact damage at the muzzle, none of the 3 have more than 20% blueing which is very common with non rearsenaled M38s as these were being cranked out fast cosmetics like finishing the recievers or blueing was skipped (why they all have rough recievers) In many cases they never saw any finish to metal or wood untill they got re-arsenaled unfortunatly this is when they got counterbored as a matter of course....

I helped a friend work up a Shotgun new artical a couple years ago by letting him use my range and two of my original m38s for comparison purposes to the 12 standard re-arsenaled rifles he had, 4 of the 12 could not group better than 10 inches the rest were average 4-5" guns of the 4 I spent some time recrowning them within the counterbore and we saw immediate improvement 2 of them were added to the 2" table the other 2 went into the average 4-5" batch but the difference was remarkable, the original crawn looked like it was cut with a dull 2 blade drill bit!

CU74
January 25, 2007, 10:24 PM
As I noted earlier, (post #3) I was interested in following this post. If I am close to right here, the 91/59 is yet another carbine made by chopping off some the the barrel of a 91/30 rifle. I already have a couple - M38 and M44 - so I don't need another short-barrelled Mosin-Nagant.

Since my old eyes are no longer able to get great long-range accuracy with iron sights, :( both the M38 and M44 are about as accurate as I am. Except for some twilight shooting to enjoy the 'flame-thrower effect' of the short barrels, I don't like shooting the carbines nearly as much as I do the 91/30 rifles. The longer sight radius may not mean much to you younger folk, but we "senior shooters" appreciate all the help we can get.

270Win
January 25, 2007, 10:37 PM
dstorm1911,

That makes sense to me; there are so many Mosins out there, I suppose it only makes sense that some of us take longer to encounter the dogs. I'll be on the lookout! I appreciate you sharing your experiences. Thanks!

:)

gaweidert
January 26, 2007, 07:51 AM
The 91/59 is not just a chop job. Whoever reworked them knew what they were doing. Mine started it's life in 1944. Nobody seems to know exactly where these rifles were reworked. They have a heavier barrel than the M44 or M38 because they were made from longer barreled 91/30's. They also reworked the trigger group. These are the best triggers, other than Finn versions, of any of the Russian made versions. The bolt action is also very smooth.

Just about every comment I have ever seen on these praises their accuracy as being better than the other Russian versions. I got mine for $100 at a show and I am very pleased with it. Some people think that they are not true Mosin Nagants because of the rework, but I have no complaints about mine. It is in excellent shape, shoots great, is very LOUD like all good short barreled Mosin Nagants, and one heck of a fireball for a pleasing visual sensation as well.

As to why they were made, no one seem to know. Could have been:
- To have a supply of cheap backup weapons during the Cold War.
- To make work in the workers paradise. Maybe to fill in slack periods at the arsenal.
- Adversion to melting down weapons and an inexpensive attempt to prolong their life a bit.

DMK
January 26, 2007, 10:48 AM
Some people think that they are not true Mosin Nagants because of the rework :confused: That would be saying the M39s, M28s, or any of the other Finn made models are also not true Mosin Nagants.

I suspect that 91/59s are redone at a factory, perhaps Tula or Izzy. Except for the milling of the rear sight (probably a cost saving measure), they were done with quality workmanship for a Soviet small arm. It doesn't look like the work of a depot grunt with a bandsaw and a drill press.

It's a shame that the Warsaw countries didn't favor re-arsenal stamps as much as the US arsenals did.

jagdpanzer347
January 26, 2007, 11:44 AM
I picked up a really nice M91/59 at a local militaria store. It has the brightest bore of any Mosin I have ever seen. Also, it has about a pound and a half trigger pull. That should be really good for detecting a flinch! The owner of the shop I bought it from postulated the M91/59s were produced for security personel. Bridges, railroads, that sort of thing. Seems odd with the amount of M44s in the Soviet inventory at that time. Makes a good story though, I guess.

-jagd

GD
January 26, 2007, 10:35 PM
I have two M91/59s, one a 43 and the other a 42. They are both great shooters with light, smooth triggers. On the bench, I got under 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards with both. I have several M38s and M44s and they don't come close to the M91/59s. I don't think these rifles saw much action considering the shape they are in. I lucked out on both rifles, one for $70 and the other for $90. Both were identified as M38s by the sellers.

Harry Paget Flashman
April 18, 2007, 04:04 PM
I just stumbled across a 1943 Izhevsk built 91/59 today at a local gun store. They had an M38 and this one on display in their milsurp rack along with 91/30's, a few Carcano's and Arisaka's. I wasn't all that familiar with the 91/59 despite surfing the net looking for a good buy on a second M38. I like Nagants.

Wish I had a camera...but this is a nice clean rifle, pristine bore, ~98% blue and no dings in the stock. Not that any of that matters. I bought it for $149. I just happened to have the wife with me. I'd just taken her to the Naval Base to get a new ID card. The guy at the gun shop did me a real favor by remarking, "Hey. I see you brought the wife along so you don't have to go home and beg for approval." He was kidding but it sort of ticked her off. Which was a good thing because she said, "He can buy whatever he wants." I knew then, even before spotting the 91/59, that I wasn't leaving empty-handed.

My lucky day.

offthepaper
April 18, 2007, 08:46 PM
"He can buy whatever he wants."
----------------------------------------------------
Too bad you were'nt at a car dealership. :neener:

kfranz
April 19, 2007, 08:54 PM
I've got a '39, 'a 40, a '42 and a '43. One of these days I'm going to have to include one of them on a range trip.

cwmcgu2
April 20, 2007, 02:04 AM
I paid $99 for my Tula 91/59 a couple months ago. It started its life as a 91/30 in 1938. As far as accuracy goes, its ok. I havn't had the chance to shoot it off the bench yet, and in most cases bad accuracy is on account of the shooter(me) and not the rifle :o

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