[dadman]

Would it be better to change the name of this forum from "Blackpowder Shooting" to "Muzzleloading"?
Or, should a seperate forum be created for muzzleloaders that use powder other than blackpowder?
Has this been addressed before?

A name change may attract more viewers due to more shooters using smokeless front-stuffers like the Savage and SMI H&R/NEF conversion, some shooters not considering their in-line a "blackpowder" rifle, etc.

Just started using a muzzleloader this year for hunting. An in-line.
Helping a freind identify a used Hawken type rifle that was given to him so that he may find a replacement nipple.

[BigBlock]

I think it's pretty obvious black powder = muzzleloading. There are a hell of alot more black powder shooters here than there are muzzleloading shooters who use other powders. And not all black powder shooting is muzzleloading.

[sundance44s]

If she loads from the muzzle she`s a muzzle loader ....Most of us like the real black powder more than the subs ...but i know some just can`t find the real thing in their area , so all they know are subs .
Some of us even stuff the subs in our black powder cartrage guns ..........but nothing sounds and smells like the real deal .

[Duncaninfrance]

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/BP-FIX.jpg


Breath IN & IN & INNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!

[dadman]

I think it's pretty obvious black powder = muzzleloading. There are a hell of alot more black powder shooters here than there are muzzleloading shooters who use other powders. And not all black powder shooting is muzzleloading.
...more black powder shooters here...
Here, at this site? Maybe, maybe not.
Myself, I started using 777. In my area, shooting supply stores don't sell true blackpowder. Don't know of any ML shooters in the area that are using blackpowder.

Another consideration:
"Blackpowder & Muzzleloading".

If the BP purists want a dedicated forum, then maybe a seperate forum for the newer ML's would be a useful addition.
I think THR, as good as it is, would be a little better.
Tried searching about smokeless ML's, SMI, etc., here. Couldn't find anything, and went elsewhere.
If I were to come across some 'alternative to BP' info or had some experience to share, should it be posted in "Blackpowder Shooting"? Some other forum/catagory?
We do want to retain and expand our members, viewers and users, right?

[dadman]

What a feeling!!

Oh yeah, can't deny that!
When I see some 'true' ML's show up at the range, I scoot on down to partake of the second hand smoke :)

[Phillip Allen]

25 years as a muzzle loading competitor...that said, I am now shooting a 40-65 in a Hi-wall and always with black powder

[Lee Woiteshek]

Generally speaking I think its a regional thing. The side hammer rifles with irons are real big west of the Mississippi because its all that they are allowed to use. East of the big river your allowed scoped inlines with subs. Smokeless even. I don't stop by here much because I have and use all the no no's. Inline, smokeless, saboted copper bullet, 209 primers, with a scope. They would hang you for less, say in Colorado....For me its still muzzle loading, and I have limited time to hunt so I will take every advantage my game laws will give me. All that said I would also like to see and would likely partake in a "Modern Muzzle Loader" section of THR.

[sundance44s]

Now there`s the proper name for the other side of this coin ...Modern Muzzleloading . Lots of the ole timers still around , with good ideas that load from the front .

[____hoot____]

Remember the first MUZZLELOADER I made when I was 10 years old in 1956. A little fuse fired brass plumbing pipe cannon fueled with match-heads: it worked TOO!

[Phillip Allen]

Teddy Roosevelt didn't have much time so they tied a bear up for him to shoot...extreme yes but then "modern" muzzleloading is the same thing to me...want to use scopes and smokeless and inlines...take em out during the regular season...the point for me is to shoot primitive...if you're just a deer whacker...do it during the deer whacker season

[gezzer]

Wow PC in a BLACK POWDER Forum. Yuck:barf:

[Phillip Allen]

You talking about my post? What's PC about that? (I thought I was being pretty crabby)

[arcticap]

dadman, Even though I'm a modernist, I like the current forum name just the way it is. And I also don't believe that there needs to be a second forum. :)
BP is a generic term that every shooter should be familiar with, and I really can't believe that anybody could possibly confuse it with the brand name of a major oil corporation or their multitude of gasoline stations. Nor do I think that the term "BP Shooting" could cause someone enough confusion to go out and actually shoot up a gas station, I mean someone would really have to be confounded to go out and do that sort of thing, even if they were on drugs! :D

[sundance44s]

When i see a post here that has the work INLINE in it ...i don`t read it , I don`t shoot`em don`t want for one .....and don`t want to read about them .

[Phillip Allen]

sundance44s , the in-lines are cheaper to make and no one seems to know it...they are also encouraged by the company lawyers and their monochromatic view of the world...also, Wal-Mart prefers them because the clerks don't need to know anything about the product or sport...then neither does the customer of course...

[sundance44s]

We had a inline shooter join our black powder club a few months back ...wasn`t long for him to see we enjoy our sport for pennys a shot ...so i sold him a good side hammer T/C Hawken ...Odd thing is ..i had to give him lessons on how to load it ...Being only an inline shooter he had never used loose powder and patched round balls before .....and lube ...he said whats LUBE for ......Any way to make it a short story ...his inline now resides in a dark closet never to see the light of day again ...And i enjoyed watching the smiles on his face when he saw just how good an ole side hammer could shoot a round ball ....so i have to give these inline shooters a chance , if they only knew ...our side hammers are whats its all about , and its hard to inprove on the perfection .

[DaveP (UK)]

I have a cheap inline. I find I can see that some thought has gone into reducing production costs, and I find I can applaud the success of the endeavour.
I bought it cheap, probably discounted, as an intro to muzzle loading. I will be moving on to something more 'classical', but while this is what I have I'm enjoying it.

I would describe my attitude as open minded. Without wanting to be rude to anyone, I do find it difficult to understand why so many established muzzle loader users seem to take aversion to them. I would have expected the attitude to be "Oh, a new toy..."
Any one want to try to enlighten me?

Flak jacket on...

[Phillip Allen]

I'll try to get back with a little essay on my own philosophy...bare with me for a few hours

[____hoot____]

hee hee hee just a thought, but if that pureist bug ever bites me, I would like to take my Traditions Tracker in-line out: load her up with smokeless and tie her to a tree to see just how much abuse she could take. Thought that the day I bought her on discount for $79.95. With the heavy slam-bolt hitting that 209 and tough hard steel that the spainish are now putting into their guns she might surprise me. What's a good strong powder load combo for the 458 Winchester Magnum? Think I will start there and work up :evil:

come-on-guys all is in jest~~~~like I said, the first gun I built when I was ten was a fuse fired in-line built from plumbing supplies, forgot to mention that I blew that one up too when I switched from match heads to blackpowder striped out of some M-80s

[sundance44s]

Now your starting to sound like Ferret ! :eek:

[Phillip Allen]

My rifle

I have been shooting since I made my first “cannon” at about 10 years of age…in those days, one could go to the local hardware store and buy single shot gun shells. I’d cut them apart and use the powder in my home made wooden guns…they were good for several shots before they split (very light charges as I was conserving my pop bottle money). As I aged I got better at making them and then started making my own gunpowder (probably gleaned the recipe from a Boy Scout manual). I was lucky and at 16 I found my own personal Old Man for a mentor (think Patrick F McManus). He was a real collector and understood that a bunch of guns is not a collection unless there is a theme. That theme is important because it keeps an order and thrust to an endeavor. An aesthetic compass if you will. Sorta like a space mission…we could just shoot things out into space but isn’t it better to plan beyond the fiery rush of a rocket?…remember it because that “theme” follows my thoughts through this all.

I began shooting muzzle loaders in earnest in 1964 (I was 16 years old) and snuck around through the woods in fear of being laughed at with my muzzle loading pistol (remember I was a teen age'er :) ).

I have always had an interest in history and try to understand from that perspective. I would like to ride a horse across Yellowstone dressed like Bridger…but I have to have all the trappings including the rifle even if I have no plans to shoot it…without it, it wouldn’t be the same and I would feel cheated or incomplete. I read the Leather Stocking series and books I’ve forgotten the names of…about ships and islands and treasure and storms. At about 17 I took up hunting and though I was abysmal as a hunter I persevered and got a little better. I went years as a complete failure as a deer hunter till my cousin pointed out that Phillip would rather shoot the gun and not the deer…EUREKA! I did continue hunting but I quit feeling like a failure…I finally shot my first deer and since then I have been at peace with my inability to regularly kill deer. There was a better “theme” I found and that was competition and reenactment as a buckskinner. Primitive hunting whether archery or muzzle loading is no longer a passion but I have a deep respect for it…the best hunters in the woods are very likely archers (not cross bows or even compound). They set up rules which limit themselves; perhaps they hunt with a compound but maybe they hunt with wooden arrows and home made bows…a message carried by the grey goose and limited by the same grey goose. Stepping into the woods with the same tackle carried by native aboriginals the world over, slipping along a woodland path, listening to squirrels and chickadees and becoming a part of the fabric of the land is a very satisfying experience, in fact, it is primal.

I can squat down and start a fire with my flint and steel. The resulting fire is indistinguishable from one started with a lighter or match…but “I” know the difference and am satisfied. Dad used to tell me that there is no way to “cheat” at solitaire but he went on to explain that simply turning up the cards with no possibility of “losing” is likely to be a boring labor. It is much better to loose more than to win and give value to the winning in the process. Like canned hunts, turning up the cards without the possibility of losing makes shallow people out of us…the complete hunter must set limits and rules to make success a valuable reward…a reward worth the candle. Success then becomes a mature satisfaction and not simply a vulgar indulgence and THAT separates the men from the boys.

I shoot a light .40 caliber flint lock these days. I made it myself and stuck to what I think is a southern blacksmith-made school. The bulk of my competition was done with a .54 cap lock with fixed sights; I adjusted for range by varying the powder charge…no bells and whistles…just one man and one gun. I got my butt kicked at the firing line by a lot of very fine marksmen but except in the very beginning, never by an in-line or a townie with a laminated thumb-hole stock. And those who whipped me all respected my efforts…they were simply better shots and that was that.

A little poem I wrote to explain my interest in sailing…

I Want

I want to see whales again...and porpoise...and a shark...and bioluminescence in water that’s dark.

I want to stand my watch at the helm and to feel the largeness of the sea and the smallness of me.

I want to look out on the circled horizon…and know it’s not changed for years upon years and Columbus, too, saw what I now hold my eyes on.

I fear to be tossed in my ship in the sea but fear more to be lost in the vessel that’s me.

[gezzer]

Phillip Allen Not against you, your post is great! just that a BP forum worried about being called somthing else cause they use fake powder. This would never occur with rock lock shooters!

[DaveP (UK)]

Thats a remarkably frank account of the development of your tastes in shooting. Thankyou for the insights. I can certainly understand a desire to do things "properly", to prcatice some craft in a way that the practitioners of the past would have recognised. Much more satisfying than the modern approach of steaming in with a Dremel in each hand and a credit card clenched between the teeth :D

Certainly in line muzzle loaders have no part in history, being a very recent development, but you seem to be going further and suggesting that they are in some way a cheat.
I have read enough to have picked up that they were developed and marketed as a way for centrefire hunters to extend their deer season into days previously reserved for archers/muzzle loaders, without having to learn any new skills. I can imagine feeling quite picqued at suddenly having to share the woods with crowds of chaps who were still using telescopic sights for long shots and making close stalking very difficult. There's certainly exploitation of the rules there (one of the problems of the modern world), if not outright cheating.
Could this be the basis of what seems to be quite a degree of animosity? Over there, maybe, but it's hard to see how that reasoning could apply over here...
There isn't a tidy answer to every problem!

[Phillip Allen]

Most of us who cheat end up only cheating ourselves and we don't even know it...education is the only thing which can cure it and some of us resist education...I could take a primed, empty shell and shove it into a modern rifle then up end the thing and finish loading down the muzzle...to some that might be muzzle loading but not to me...they have cheated themselves and will stop as they mature.

As to the market flooding of the in-line and similar stuff...these are not being designed by plack powder shooters but, rather, by engineers who's job is to design something that costs $25 to manufacture and can be marketed for $100 to capture the Wal-Mart traffic and other short-cut takers. If you want to see how sencere folks are, give them a short season to hunt and they must make up their minds a season ahead to hunt primitive or not without extension of season...everybody will fall back to a rifle which holds the maximum number of shots because the dead deer is more important than the hunt. they are invested in success without knowing what success even is. so the defination becomes symbolic...dead deer=success. It's sorta like special olympics...ya get an unlimited number of strikes because it's PC to have no losers and everyone a winner...hitting the ball with the stick becomes "success" and running the bases or catching the ball or covering the bases is just filler while it is someone elses turn to swing the stick at the ball...mindless (not a put down on the kids in special olympics but if I have to explain that then someone's not thinking very hard)

[Plink]

Phillip, I couldn't have said it better myself. If they want to use them to hunt in the modern season, my hat's off to them. But black powder season is all about limits. The same type of limits that archery presents. It's more about the hunter's ability and discipline and less about the weapon itself. If the inliners want to load a lead conical or round ball, and use open sights, I don't mind having them in muzzleloader season. To me it's not about aesthetics, but about limits. Something that the lazy folks who just want to use our season to extend their own, dislike.

Centerfire ballistics, centerfire season. Black powder ballstics, black powder season. Seems reasonable to me, and it's how it was originally meant to be.

I see the inlines as being very versatile. Load them with pellets and sabots, drop a scope on them and hunt the modern season. Load them with a conical or ball, pull the scope and hunt the muzzleloader season. All with the same gun.

Me, I'll trudge around the woods carrying my trusty sidelock, knowing that this is how my great, great, great grandfather hunted. Heck, I do that in modern season too most of the time.

[Donny]

You know what fellas I've seen this kind of debate ruin other forums by makin enemies of folks who should just be sharin their love of black powder shootin. Lets just keep the name as it is and welcome all who enter.

Don

[Phillip Allen]

Well...I did point out that I shoot a buffalo rifle with black powder and a cap and ball revolver is NOT a muzzle loading gun...this is black powder...Having said that, however, I am new to this forum and still learning your rules. I don't usually get on gun forums...I used to work as a gunsmith and run a shop and guess I've just talked about guns enough to satisfy myself...

[dadman]

Donny wrote:
You know what fellas I've seen this kind of debate ruin other forums by makin enemies of folks who should just be sharin their love of black powder shootin. Lets just keep the name as it is and welcome all who enter.

Don
I guess keeping the forum name as is would be o.k.
It does get the point across, even to me!

Whatever you shoot, it all depends on shot placement, projectile weight and hunting/tracking skill if used for hunting.

I welcome the use of optics, in-lines and smokeless for hunting. Decreases the number of lost, wounded and hobbled deer.

Again, shot placement matters, old or new tech.

Are there some flint shooters who look down on and disapprove of percussion cap users? Are caps considered "cheating"?

I was going to get a "traditional"/sidelock blackpowder rifle because I really hadn't given much thought or research into other alternatives.
But, the more I read and heard, the newer developments in muzzleloading are a good thing from a reliability and economic viewpoint.
I think I'll get one of each, a sidelock and a smokeless.

Inline,reliable common 209 primers, choice of loose or pellet powders, newer smokeless options(cleaner, cheaper).

Smokeless: Increased game recovery. Seeing shot effect and/or deer flight path.

Sidelock: More traditional, more dependent on shooter skills.

I used the loose 777 during practice and hunting this season. Weighed out the powder, put into small tubes and poured into muzzle when ready to shoot.

Some sites and info on the newer stuffers:
http://www.sav10ml.com/pages/main.htm
http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage
http://www.savagearms.com/muzzleloader_home.htm
http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/
http://randywakeman.com/
http://randywakeman.com/savage3.htm
http://randywakeman.com/ballltd38.htm
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/

[Donny]

There is a fair amount of snobbery in terms of flint vs. percussion, sidelock vs. inline and I find it all a waste of time. I don't give a hoot who shoots what as long as they enjoy shooting it. I started out with an inline and moved on to sidelocks and revolvers cause I like them. If you like flint thats great if you like inlines your ok too. My point in making the the post is that I have seen enough snobbery at rendezvous and on line and I think it is all a bore and waste of energy. The only time it should matter is in organized competitions where like guns should compete together for the sake of fairness. Setting up the this forum to make deliniations by gun type will only set us up for this kind of divisive nonsense. Sorry about bein on the soap box. I'll stop ranting now.

Don

[4fingermick]

Current name sounds good to me. I don't shoot muzzle loaders and have never been all that attracted to them. I am just getting started with cartridge BP guns (Browning BPCR, 1866 and hammer shotshell guns, etc). Whilst I have never gotten into nor have I ever shown a bit of interest in in-line muzzle loaders, I sparkled up when I saw the Remington 700 inline rifle, not enough to buy one, but if I was cashed up and tripped over one at gun shop, I think I'd have trouble resisting it, especially a camo one. The falling block inline boat oar that I see heavily touted in yankee gunmags is a real eyesore.

[Phillip Allen]

Donny, snobbery is someone decrying your inexpensive imitation Hawken in favor of his much more expensive one...complaining about non primitive weapons being used in a primitive season is not the same thing...never was...a non sequitur. Perhaps you might have known that anyway. A clean kill is not the driving force in hunting choices. If it was then a lot of more casual variables would be removed including caliber and ranges allowed and sights and conditions and many, many more...reducing the experience to that of a "canned" hunt...what joy! "Clean kill" is an excuse for a lot more hunters using scopes on cheap in-lines with huge shotgun battery cups than it is a goal. When the killing of a deer, any deer, becomes more important than the hunt and its limitations, we have all of lost something and I am sorry for it. My aim is to educate or show a better way of thinking with no animus and only good thoughts and wishes.

I rejoice for those who get it and hold hope for those who have not got it...yet.

[Donny]

Phillip,

Not knockin your point of view cause I happen to agree with it. Just sayin the debate is not a new one and I've seen it get ugly to the point where forums have been shut down as a result. Now I'm not sayin you've been uncivil in any way, you've been a real gentleman. But I've seen other folks just get to thinkin their right and won't let go until someone's feelins are hurt. I really enjoy this forum and want it to stay friendly.

Respectfully,

Don

[pohill]

If purity is your goal, then walk or ride a horse to the range, cast your own balls over a campfire...heck, make your own black powder.
I'm confused about the Special Olympics reference - are you saying that their method of playing baseball (or anything they do) is not "right"?
Maybe I misunderstood.

I have to add this question in regards to your statement: "My aim is to educate or show a better way of thinking with no animus and only good thoughts and wishes." What the...what are you talking about? You come onto a gun forum trying to teach us a better way to think? You're kidding, right? And you rejoice if we "get it?"
Hold the rejoicing...I don't get it.

Also, I don't hunt - at all - but to me a successful hunt would mean a deer on the roof of my car, a deer that died without suffering.

[Iggy]

*

[4fingermick]

Cutting the wood for winter would be where I'd fall down and it was where most of the the people on that show where they re-created the conditions that pioneers lived under missed out. Now, Where's my good ol' chainsaw?;)

Very satisfying doing these things though. I can remember the feeling of satisfaction when I was bring up the kids when we had a lot of garden produce dried, frozen and stored under the house, a bit of meat in the freezer and a pantry full of tinned and dried goods. I was really pleased with myself. There were a few times where we sailed a little close to the wind however, sold some rifles that I'd sooner not have had to part with.

[Phillip Allen]

pohill, I believe I have expressed myself poorly...again. I take short cuts with my writing out of laziness and those short cuts lead people to the wrong conclusions sometimes...for that I apologize and will try to re state my thoughts better. In the case of special Olympics, those kids (I know who they are as I have helped with it before and once had a girl friend with a daughter with such a limitation...it's not a sin...just a limitation that is out of sync with most of us). My point (help me here so I don't do it again please) is to endeavor to play all the way up to my own limitations...I can do nicely with 3 strikes but to keep swinging with a foggy set of rules cheats myself...I learned a long time ago not to play a game I can't afford to lose.

Purity is not my goal but, rather, an appreciation of the point (my point) of the endeavor. My point is to experience an earlier mind-set. I can start that fire with flint and steel but I can't do it as anything other than a novelty because I am aware of other options. Our forebears (at some point) had no other better options and that mind-set is unavailable to me...I approach it as nearly as I can and accept that limitation.

Some people want power over the deer...that is the limitation they have placed on themselves. I strive for power over myself...the deer is easy, you shoot it, it falls down and experiences fear and a desire to live and a desire to breath and shock and eventual death (it may take a few seconds or longer...not all of which do we have much control over). When I kill the proverbial deer, I do my best to make it quick within my own limitations. Quick killing certainly is not the only limitation on hunting or there would be no archery season. It follows, then, that "quick kill" is defined by the limitation we place on the rule of the hunt. For instance, if we hunt with a spear, then the "quickness" of the kill is defined in relation to other ...spear... kills but not to kills with poison darts or high power rifles. Keep it in context.

Getting it...simply means that someone sees through my lens...works the same when you get me to see through your lens...getting it is the catharsis of conflict between two points of view.

[pohill]

I get ya now...kinda. The idea of the Special Olympics is to bring every kid up to their potential, no matter what that is. I don't see how that relates to hunting...maybe to a hunter, but not to the sport in general.

I don't hunt, though I see the need for hunting, if only to control a herd. Also, you kill it, I'll eat it. But, in my mind, a good hunt is a quick hunt; find the deer, shoot it, kill it (with one shot if possible, to save lead). If I did hunt, I think I'd want the most powerful, most accurate, easiest to carry weapon allowed, but I also see the attraction of using a Hawkins (I have one) or even a bow (I have one).
Some guys are against hunting with, say, a Remington .44 or Walker, but, to me, they're more lethal than a bow. But with a bow, the hunt becomes more important - you have to be able to stalk close enough for a good shot. I have a friend in Utah who gave up hunting with his 30.06 because it was too easy, and he switched to a bow.
Yep, I get ya now. Zen and the Art of Black Powder Shooting...I'm with ya.

[Phillip Allen]

Back when I taught the Arkansas Hunter Safety Course I hit upon a way of explaining what ethical hunting was: If the people we hire to tend to the hunting of animals could be assured that all hunters would be ethical hunters, there would be no minimum caliber. Ya can kill a 800 pound beef with a .22 short...but it's gotta be placed right and real close. The same applies to deer...but ya gotta be a real good hunter and not take short cuts...most seemed to understand. I used to favor scopes but over time I realize that many, and I mean many, hunters think the scope extends the range of their rifle...it does not. It extends the range of your eye; the rifle doesn't change.

[pohill]

Ah, Grasshopper, your meaning becomes clearer to me now.
Bear with me - I have a Celeron processor for a brain...time to upgrade to a Pentium.
So, in regards to the Special Olympics, you're saying (?) that swinging at the ball as many times as you can with no concern for a "score" relates to a hunter taking "swings" at the deer with no regards to the kill. Good point.
Good point, too, about scopes.
You had me worried when you talked about teaching a better way to think - I live in Massachusetts and everyone wants to teach us a better way to think: liberals, anti-gunners, Yankee fans...

[Phillip Allen]

sorry...hope ya don get bad dreams from it

[DaveP (UK)]

WHEW!!
I'm glad things have calmed down here. I asked my earlier question in all innocence and had no intention to hijack the thread or start a squabble.

To address the original topic, and as a newcomer I offer my opinion with all due diffidence, I would vote to retain the title Blackpowder Shooting.

Historically muzzle loaders, breech loaders and the first metallic cartridges were used side by side in the backwoods and on the battle field, and not all that long ago. If you describe yourself as a blackpowder shooter you're telling people something about your interests over and above what type of gun you have. It has an inclusive feel. which is nice!

[sjohns]

I don't particularly care what you want. The name is fine, people find it, there is lots of discussion here.

There is no problem with the name of the sub other than the one conjured up in your mind.

here we go... one more time...

some neurotic discomfort feeling, a chimera of the mind, and someone just HAS to try and pawn their control problem off on other people.

The name of this sub is simply the name. You know what it means, you know what is here. You know that if you ask about inlines or front stuffers or revolvers, that if you word the heading correctly, you will get appropriate responses.

Its no problem for US. Why should we stroke the mental illness of a singular entity?

I seldom, if ever see you posting here.
So what's your point? Histrionics eventually?

I mean: why don't you change YOUR name to Momman instead of dadman?
(you ought to respond that it is mostly because you have no REAL reason to.)

This reminds me of the gb site. There's always someone whining about the pettiest thing, trying to get everyone upset and on THEIR side as if it were important at all in the first place. I hang out here to stay away from that.

No dude, I don't want someone stirring the "pot of stupid" over here. If ya don't like what we have to offer... beat it. Or stay and play. That would be fine too. But drop it with the control issues.

Just stop it please.

[Plink]

I have a friend in Utah who gave up hunting with his 30.06 because it was too easy, and he switched to a bow.


That's exactly why I use a black powder gun for most of my hunting. There's a difference between actual hunting and "just killing a deer". Hunting had become routine, and I like a challenge. Having to get close enough to use a round ball effectively is a nice challenge.

[arcticap]

Plink said:

To me it's not about aesthetics, but about limits. Something that the lazy folks who just want to use our season to extend their own, dislike.


http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=232648

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j136/gmww/Reagan-hittin-head-ani.gif

[SixShootinSam]

I agree with Sjohns. The guy starts a thread, stirs the pot and doesn't even bother to write even a single reply in his thread:cuss:

[Phillip Allen]

I looked at the link above but stopped reading when I got to the guy's post about his .375 equivalent scoped rifle complaining about the whiners...he has old eyes...so what? I have old eyes but can still out shoot a lot...no... most younger guys in the deer woods (that's just a weak excuse)...to me it is the same as the steroid use in sports...the ethic is set by the cheater. I was in on the beginning of muzzle loading season in my state and the cheaters coming in now are nothing better than thieves...they may be more of them and mob rule is very liberal of them...liberal to themselves. Get a life...get a little integrity! (BTW I never cheated on my wife either)

rant...pant, pant, wheeze

[arcticap]

Phillip Allen said:

pohill, I believe I have expressed myself poorly...again. I take short cuts with my writing out of laziness and those short cuts lead people to the wrong conclusions sometimes...for that I apologize and will try to re state my thoughts better.

I was in on the beginning of muzzle loading season in my state and the cheaters coming in now are nothing better than thieves...they may be more of them and mob rule is very liberal of them...liberal to themselves. Get a life...get a little integrity! (BTW I never cheated on my wife either)


http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j136/gmww/Reagan-hittin-head-ani.gif

[Phillip Allen]

Arcticap, I did get a little annoyed didn't I...oh well, I really get put out by intellectual dishonesty...sorry, please carry on with the sea-lawyering now...

[4v50 Gary]

This thread has run its course.

As to the name of the forum, well, that was decided before we opened to the public. That inlines and black powder substitutes are allowed to be discussed here is because open discussions within the shooting community is healthy for the community to thrive. In the course of our discussions, we may be impassioned by our feelings, but we should never take it personal. We start as friends, disagree, and part as friends.