brown bear protection


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police
January 26, 2007, 04:49 PM
Hi, long time reader.. first time poster. I have a question and found it appropriate to put it in the hunting section instead of any other thread.

Im going hiking (serious hiking) in alaska. I carry a G21 on the field and I own a kimber custom 10mm. My question is, would that be enough for bear protection? I don't want to buy a sw500 for something I would use every other year but I also don't want to be dinner.

Thanks

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Alaska Dave
January 26, 2007, 05:29 PM
During the 5 years that I lived there my hunting partners carried a 10mm, one carried a 45 colt commander and I carried a shortened 44 Redhawk.

MCgunner
January 26, 2007, 06:13 PM
Oh, God, not another one. :what: :rolleyes: :D

Everyone here says take a slug gun, 12 gauge, Brenneke slugs. Me, I'd want a rifle, but I guess if long guns are too bulky for the hike, I'd settle for a Freedom Arms .454 Casull or maybe a Ruger Alaskan in .460. I think I'd much rather have my .45 Colt blackhawk than a 10mm or any autoloader. I'd load up with 300 grain hot handloads. In fact, I might juice 'em up a little hotter than I currently do now. Not sure it'd matter against a browny, though. Everyone tells me to file the front sight off, but then, I guess I should remove the ejector, too.

Highland Ranger
January 26, 2007, 06:48 PM
Get a hand grenade.

Old Time Hunter
January 26, 2007, 07:56 PM
Christ!! the eskimos and native indians managed to fend off the brown bears without much more than spears and arrows. I'd fear more for my safety hiking in Central Park NYC or North Ave in Chicago than hiking in Alaska. Just carry a slug gun. Now if you are plan'n on hunting them, use a .444 or larger short barrel levergun, anything else would be sacraligious!

MCgunner
January 26, 2007, 09:24 PM
Christ!! the eskimos and native indians managed to fend off the brown bears without much more than spears and arrows.

Most of the people on this board are scared to death of black bears, so stands to reason they'd not enter Alaska in anything less than an Abrams.:D

Jimmy Newman
January 26, 2007, 09:29 PM
I spent a little time in Alaska with several people who've spent a lot of time in the wild areas, and all of them carried pump 12's with slugs and a backup revolver. One of them is a fellow who's been out there for a long time and is among other things a professional summer and winter arctic circle survival trainer. He recommended a .22 pistol or takedown rifle for possible survival situations, but when leading a group always carried a 12ga 870 and a Smith .41 mag. I can only assume he and the people he learned from had some idea what they were doing when they chose 12ga slugs for bear defense.

MCgunner
January 26, 2007, 10:14 PM
You can't be too overgunned for Alaska....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7d/The_Stand.jpg/800px-The_Stand.jpg

Bwana John
January 27, 2007, 11:57 AM
Most of the people on this board are scared to death of black bears, so stands to reason they'd not enter Alaska in anything less than an Abrams.
:) :neener: :) :neener: :) :neener: :) :neener: :) :neener:

For Browny and Whitie I would recomend a clean camp, and a Mod. 870, 18" rifle sighted barrel, and slugs.

razorburn
January 27, 2007, 08:54 PM
I don't know if even a 12 gauge slug will stop a big brownie on the spot. These things have been recorded to 2500 lbs and are tied with the polar bear as the largest land predators on earth. Where territories overlap, they like to hunt and eat black bears for lunch. Having good bear sense is probably the best tactic. Don't use black bear tactics. Don't try to scare it off by looking big and making noise. It won't work. It'll just piss the thing off. If a black bear attacks, most attacks are deterred when people fight them off with hands and feet. If you try to fight a bruin, they'll just intensify their attack. From wiki....

If one meets a brown bear, one should remain calm and slowly walk in the opposite direction. Running humans trigger the bear's chasing instinct and bears can outrun humans. Do not make threatening moves, eye contact, or shout. Thousands of encounters occur between humans and brown bears every year without conflict.

If a brown bear attacks and it is impossible to get away, the person should lie down in a fetal position and put his/her hands around the head to protect from bites to reduce damage to vital organs. Pretending to be dead may save you. Unlike with the American black bear, punching or gouging attacking brown bears intensifies their assaults. Black bears are NOT the same as Grizzlies. Don't confuse the two.

22-rimfire
January 27, 2007, 09:17 PM
My first thought to using or needing one of the largest bore revolvers every other year is more than most can say that actually own one. So, I would carry what you got. What are the odds of seeing, or having a very close encounter with either a brown bear or grizzly? It is only your life. Your call.

stevelyn
January 28, 2007, 11:24 AM
This is a subject that has been beaten to death on a bi-weekly basis. Using the search function will likely overwhelm you with information (bs?) overload.:D

Art Eatman
January 28, 2007, 12:45 PM
I'm in accord with stevelyn.

Howsomever: If a pistol, the largest with which you can fire accurately and rapidly when in a panic situation.

If a shotgun, at least a 12-gauge wth slugs. It seems to me that a semi-auto with an extended mag would be desirable.

If a rifle, I'd venture a .338 or .375 H&H.

The above seems to be the consensus of TFL and THR folks who've posted from Alaska or who have hunted there for the big browns. Since 1998, anyhow, as I've been reading this stuff.

Me? Never been there, never done that, no tee-shirt.

Art

mbt2001
January 28, 2007, 05:31 PM
Carry your Kimber 10mm and a can of the bear spray... Make sure that everyone if the group has one of those cans and spread out if you run into a bear.

http://www.udap.com/

Geno
January 28, 2007, 06:14 PM
I commented about a similar post some time back. Here is a link to that thread. It holds some "significant" information that may serve to keep you off the menu:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=179347&highlight=Larry+Kelly

To avoid double-posting, I will offer up only the most crucial of that former thread's info: Read Larry Kelly & J.D. Jones' "Hunting for Handgunners", P. 225. Kelly & Jones, attacked by a charging bear...fired a total 16 rounds of .375 H&H, .44 Magnum and .375 J.D.J...into the bear...the bear still ran off."

I ask you, is teh 10MM sufficient? Food for thought, lest you become food for bear.

Doc2005

tank mechanic
January 28, 2007, 06:30 PM
If a brown bear attacks and it is impossible to get away, the person should lie down in a fetal position and put his/her hands around the head to protect from bites to reduce damage to vital organs

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

hagar
January 28, 2007, 06:39 PM
Good advice, a brown bear is more likely to hurt or kill you and then leave you alone, while a black bear will kill you and eat you.

Some of the biggest brown bears have been killed with 22lr rifles and 9mm pistols, and the natives have a "varmint calling game" where they wrap themselves in seal furs and thrash around on the ice to attract polar bears, wait till they get close, and then shoot them with itty bitty 243 or 25/06 rifles. A big polar bear will be twice as big as a big brown bear.

I'd say pack your 10mm with some hot loads, and be aware of what is going on around you, take a whistle along and use that before you go around blind corners. Probably 90% of the bears will move out of your way if they have enough warning, the other 10% is why you take the 10mm along.

razorburn
January 28, 2007, 08:41 PM
A big polar bear will be twice as big as a big brown bear.

About the same size, although the polars are slightly larger on average. The biggest bear recorded is a brown though. Both are many, many times larger than a black bear.

usmccpl
January 28, 2007, 08:51 PM
Doc I read that myself a few years ago. The bear died after the last shot. And a few days before the problem with that bear Larry Kelly shot one two shots and it didnt get back up and he said the first shot was enough to end the critter. But having never been to Alaska I cant say how hard one might be to keep it on the deck.

12GA00buck
January 29, 2007, 03:05 AM
I carry bear spray and a 12GA with slugs. Killing a bear in DLP creates paperwork, pepper spray has been proven effective by wildlife biologists. It's not a substitute for a firearm, but it is a nice option to have. I like a 12GA because you can adapt the load for just about any kind of game you might come across. The southeast brush is thick, father north I'd prefer a 30-06. Yes a 30-06, not some loud expensive heavy gun that destroys small game. I feel a 30-06 loaded with 180-220 grain partition or Barnes MRX loads will work just fine provided you do your part. Also you have the option to use cheap FMJ for small game/practice and 165 grain JSP for deer.

Cosmoline
January 29, 2007, 04:11 AM
The search function is your friend. There are about 1,000 threads on this exact topic.

Don't get too worked up about it, and don't come up here guns blazing. Your best defense is your ears and what's between them. Carry whatever you're most comfortable with, within reason. If you're not going to be able to have it up and shooting in about two seconds, don't bother with it.

JShirley
January 29, 2007, 04:50 AM
eskimos and native indians managed to fend off the brown bears without much more than spears and arrows

And multiple hunters and a dog pack. Jeez, even large, dangerous boars can be hunted with knives with a good pack of dogs.

It was my understanding that polar bears are longer, and browns are heavier.

John

Socrates
January 29, 2007, 05:20 AM
Im going hiking (serious hiking) in alaska. I carry a G21 on the field and I own a kimber custom 10mm. My question is, would that be enough for bear protection? I don't want to buy a sw500 for something I would use every other year but I also don't want to be dinner.

First off, if you are a serious hiker, I hope you are better with your camping setup, more so then your bear caliber choices.

Excellent caliber choices. I'll be happy to email my real name, and, just will me the G21 and the Kimber custom 10mm to me.

Bear defense starts at 458 win mag, and goes up. NO handgun is adequate, unless it's this one:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/seville%207%202006/500Nitroshortruger.jpg
570 grain softpoints, in a Howdah, at 2100 fps...:D

If you want to commit suicide, go right ahead, but, being shredded by razor sharp claws, on paws bigger then your head, is not my idea of a fun way to die.
On the otherhand, one quick paw to the head, and, your necks gone...

Watch that movie by the bear guy, that gets eaten in the end, and, imagine a hungry brown going after you...The part where you can hear them die, as the bear eats them is particularly disgusting...:barf: :what:

I have two words for you: GIANT BEAR SPRAY...
OK, THREE...
S

Cosmoline
January 29, 2007, 05:41 AM
These threads always degenerate into absurdity.

mbt2001
January 29, 2007, 08:25 AM
yep...

:rolleyes:

Geno
January 29, 2007, 09:44 AM
usmccpl:

I agree, the bear did die after the last shot. Specifically, and I quote, "Bob fired, then I fired again. The bear turned and I fired two more shots into his shoulder. Bob fired at his shoulder again. I put my last two in his rear as he turned around and started running. Bob stepped out of the door and fired as the bear went bellowing down the beach" (Kelly, L. & Jones, J.D. 2001. Hunting for Handgunners, P. 225).

The statement that the bear started running and bellowing down the beach leads me to believe that this bear was very alive for an additonal lengthy run. I confirmed that fact with Larry himself when I was having a Remington Classic .338 Win. Mag. rifle ported. I had bought the rifle to hunt brown bear. The bear, according to Larry, ran for something like 150 to 200 yards down to the beach before finally expiring.

Doc2005

BCbob
January 29, 2007, 11:29 AM
I get a kick out of this topic and peoples fear of getting eaten by the bears. The dope dealers in front of city hall scare me more than the bears.

I worked as a forester for 35 years and spent alot of time in the bushes of Coastal BC. Years ago I bought a mossberg persuader and have an old remington 30/06 as designated bear guns... but hardly every took with me in the bush.

I never had a close encounter of the furry kind where I felt I needed the guns. I crossed paths with bears, cougars, wolves and whiskey jacks on occassion, but I never went looking.

I must say about 20 years ago I was surrounded by a wolf pack in deep snow, steep ground and big timber. All the howling had my hair standing up and tested my pucker factor, so I cursed them out and waved my ax around and held my ground. I was by myself a couple hours drive from home so I stayed and finished my work. I never saw them again, but they howled for another hour all around the hillside.

Bears have alot of natural food on the coast and even the black bear get real big. In the interior there is alot less food and bears are usually smaller and more aggressive. There, a rifle shot can be a dinner bell for a bear, and I know friends that had Griz come in close when they shot or were calling moose.

I've heard lots of bear stories over the years and should write some down

MCgunner
January 29, 2007, 11:39 AM
I get a kick out of this topic and peoples fear of getting eaten by the bears. The dope dealers in front of city hall scare me more than the bears.

I think it's one of those things that's fun to talk about and an excuse for a new gun to the wife. "You wouldn't wanna bear to eat me, would ya? You love me don't ya? I need this shotgun." :rolleyes: :D Heck, if you're up in Washington/Oregon, maybe you need protection from Bigfoot. I mean, they could be far more dangerous than a black bear!:what:

1977kaw
January 29, 2007, 11:44 AM
read the BIG Bear post I just submitted and then think about a firearm

MCgunner
January 29, 2007, 01:27 PM
Oh, if I lived in Alaska, when I went out fishing or whatever, I'd carry a rifle or shotgun, well, just because. I mean, why not? I like carrying a gun, long guns are my thing, too. I'd just sling it and go. I don't know that I'd ever have to use it to defend myself, but I'd carry one and probably a shotgun so that I could go rabbit hunting or something if I wanted to when I'm camping out in the boonies. That Browning BLR is pretty cool lookin', but you can do more with a shotgun than just go after big game or defend yourself. Shotguns are versatile weapons in the wild. Only problem I've ever thought about 'em is the ammo is heavy and bulky for long stays in the outback. But, it ain't like you need a case or something if you're just shooting a rabbit now and then and carrying it for protection.

bigcim
January 29, 2007, 03:04 PM
s&w 460 or 45/70 if you dont want a s&w500

police
February 2, 2007, 03:04 PM
thanks for all ur feedback.. i didn't know this topic had been discussed as much and apologize for the repetiveness. as far as anyone is concerned, i picked up some "hot" double-tap 10mm ammo for my kimber but later found out a buddy had something better so i'm borrowing a s&w .44 mag.
i also have bear spray .. but.. ehh yeeaah

wish me luck!

grizz
February 2, 2007, 08:18 PM
Most important, as noted above, cook AT LEAST 200 yards from where you camp. Leave ALL OF YOUR FOOD, or anything that might smell like food (toothpaste, deodorant, etc) in a bear-proof container at least 200 yards from your camp, or suspended up in a tree branch at least 200 yards from your camp. Same goes with the pots you used to cook with, even after you've washed them.

snake2987
July 5, 2007, 12:30 AM
So being from Juneau Ak, I have done a fair amout of hunting, hikeing and fishing. Every time except for the times where I was hunting, I have yet to carry a gun. For the most part as long as you don't hike after the sun has set with dead fish in your backpack (which I've done) you shouldn't have any problems. I would just like to thank you guys because I was thinking which type of pistol I should get. I belive that I have a good idea of now what wouldn't wast of money.

Alphazulu6
July 5, 2007, 12:53 AM
After reading this thread I am going to have to recommend a few sticks of dynomite (just in case its a REALLY big 2500+ one) hehe

eliphalet
July 5, 2007, 01:50 AM
And when was the last time any of ya's needed Brown Bear protection? or even saw one in the wild? gessssz
Whats better a 30-06 or a 270
What's the best caliber/bullet?
Can a 223 or 357 kill a deer.
I kinda tend to think most of these questions if you gotta ask there ain't much use really answering. But I confess in foolishly becoming part of some. Still it's better than them zombie thingamajigs, at least a bear attack it is possible even if extremely improbable.

ArmedBear
July 5, 2007, 02:30 PM
Bob Fromme who owns a really nice archery shop here in San Diego has a mounted Kodiak bear, the record for a bowhunt. It's enormous.

He shot it at 17 yards (!), with ESPN filming. I talked to him (nice guy, too) and he said that, if the shot's placed right, a bear actually goes down a lot quicker from an arrow than a bullet.

So maybe carry a bow instead? (Practice required:p)

This is Bob and the bear:
http://www.performancebowhunting.com/images/kodiakBear.jpg

http://www.performancebowhunting.com/

islandphish
July 5, 2007, 03:07 PM
eliphalet,

Since you asked, it was last Friday. I saw a sow chasing a second adult up the side of a mountain. Then as the sow backed away down the mountain her cub came up and nuzzled her while the other one sat and watched. Near as we could figure she was chasing off a potential eater of her cub.

Btw, I carry a .357 with 200g Cor-Bon hardcasts. Wish I had more but this is what I got, but I don't feel too undergunned. Also, what you need for bear stoppage depends a lot on where you are going to be. As mentioned before coastal blacks get really big. Some as large as the interior grizz that I see. So know what you will be dealing with. 400-600 is the normal range for adult Grizz in my area. Much smaller than most would think yet still pretty intimidating.

Troutman
July 5, 2007, 08:34 PM
Have to love those William Tell guys.
No better way to confront one of those bears than close range with one round or arrow.

eliphalet
July 5, 2007, 10:52 PM
My earlier post was not meant to wards guys that live or spend time in Bear areas. It just seems we get plenty of arm chair quarterbacking sometimes.

If ESPN was there filming Mr Fromme, my guess is he had plenty of backup real close. What a trophy.
I remember hearing of a guy that had killed 11, if memory serves me Brown Bears with a 22 auto, but the last one he shot killed him.
Saw a film once of pygmy shoving a long spear up into a rather large elephant's ribs .The elephant eventually died we were told and that the last man from the village that had done that had died in the process.

Just cause something can be done hunting doesn't mean it really should be.

paintballdude902
July 6, 2007, 12:10 AM
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a121/paintballdude902/534534.jpg

lol
i would carry a .44 or a .357

bbut when my dad worked for forestry up there he had friends that carried 1911 colts for the black bears they would probably be a decent deterant for a brown...............but i would go bigger

island

thats a pretty small bear for a grizzlie 400-600 around here we get black bear upto 1000lbs i believe the record(which was pulled becasue he shot it when it was eating out of a dumpster) was like 969 or so but i have easily seen 20-30 bear upwards or 600 deer hunting over the last 2 years

Alphazulu6
July 6, 2007, 12:19 AM
Ok honestly is that .50 BMG??? Seriously just the idea of pulling that trigger makes me shudder as your going to have two projectiles, the 750gr bullet going in one direction and you with that knuckle driver going the other direction.... It would be an interesting thought though!

Honestly I am not sure which one would be less painful.

Alphazulu6
July 6, 2007, 12:22 AM
OK just found this because I had to go searching....

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/permalink/birdman/

Birdman Weapons Systems
Birdman Weapons Systems offers "unfriendly products for an unfriendly world." For instance, they sell the ShotCaller2000 9mm Telephone (it'll fire one shot into the ear of whoever answers it), the Mountain Dew Shotgun (in case you have the urge to fire cans of Mountain Dew at high velocity), and, of course, the Nuke 50 Micronuclear ("a mind bending MicroNuclear blast in a tiny, convenient and affordable package").

HAHA nice!

Bob R
July 6, 2007, 02:45 AM
or even saw one in the wild?

How about this afternoon about 4:45. I was up in the mountains of the Flathead National Forest looking for Morels (too late, none left) and saw a griz (they are brown) heading uphill about 150-200 yds away from me. Wife and I stood very still started looking around in case there were cubs.

I wasn't surprised, the berries are starting to ripen, so the bears are out eating.

My defense against bears, #1 is noise, don't sneak up on a bear, if they hear you coming I believe they would rather be somewhere else. Other than that I carry a winchester defender with slugs and a S&W 25-5 (45 colt). The wife has control of the pepper spray.

bob

islandphish
July 6, 2007, 03:37 AM
paintballdude902,

Yes they are pretty small. But think about this, we go through 3 seasons here in about 5 months. That is spring, summer and fall go from mid to late April to early to mid October. That isn't very long to feed and get big. The salmon run doesn't reach this far so no help there. And now it is July and the berries are just starting to come out. All of this leads to surprisingly small bear.

H&Hhunter
July 6, 2007, 10:11 PM
I talked to him (nice guy, too) and he said that, if the shot's placed right, a bear actually goes down a lot quicker from an arrow than a bullet.


AB,

I just don't even know where to go with that.......:confused:

I guess it is not that surprising considering the source.

ArmedBear
July 6, 2007, 10:24 PM
If ESPN was there filming Mr Fromme, my guess is he had plenty of backup real close.

Funny thing, I asked him about that.

He said that only other people in the woods that day were the cameraman and a good shooter with a rifle, both stationed about 100 yards behind him, with a lot of magnification on the rifle and the camera.

The rifleman was there to protect the cameraman, not the hunter. At 17 yards, Bob Fromme was pretty much on his own. I mean, they would probably have killed the bear before it had mutilated the body too badly, but according to him, the rifleman would have had a hard time stopping the bear before it got to him.

You have to understand the nature of the conversation. Bob Fromme is a humble, unassuming local surfer and outdoorsman. He was not bragging; he was simply answering my question straight up when I asked about what sort of backup he had. The answer was, essentially none.

Bob Fromme is friends with Ted Nugent, and probably shares a similar underlying philosophy. However, they come across like night and day.:)

H&Hhunter
July 7, 2007, 12:35 AM
AB,

When I said "considering the source" I meant that bow hunters tend to make some pretty fantastic claims from time to time.

Arrows have awesome killing power but I've never seen one cold stop a bear like I have seen a bullet do.

ArmedBear
July 7, 2007, 12:47 AM
True.

You'd have to meet the guy and see his wall of trophies. And this particular hunt is on video.

I wouldn't believe it myself, generally.

And it depends on the kind of bullet.

H&Hhunter
July 7, 2007, 12:45 PM
AB,

More so than the kind of bullet it depends on where that bullet is placed.

On a bear a double shoulder shot or a CNS shot will cold cock even a big bear with an adequate caliber and decent bullet.

No arrow on earth is capable of breaking massive bone.

Now given an equal shot through the lungs with an arrow vs a bullet I guess it is possible that the arrow may kill quicker. But I wouldn't count on it.

Dixie Slugs
July 9, 2007, 04:37 PM
Interesting, to say the least! You all are correct about the volume of bear gun posts........on all web pages. Most is pure speculation!
The important issure with any type of dangerous game is not the firearm, but rather the bullet's design....period!
One hears a great deal about shotgun slugs, without ever considering the slugs design.....soft lead swaged Foster, etc? A swaged lead soft, no matter who makes it, will not perform like a hard cast heat treated one.....the same applies to shotgun slugs, that applies to handgun bullet designs....think about it!
There are many dangerous game animals out there.....from a 400 pound wild hog Tusker to Griz. Many have slow nerves and you must break them down. This means big bones and muscle.
So...again, consider the ammo you are using! If it will not stand up to stress impacts, better to leave it alone.
Regards, James Gates @ Dixie Slugs

nitestocker
July 11, 2007, 02:32 AM
i have a ruger redhawk i load it with randy Garrett's 330 grs hammer head loads i have not been to Alaska but heard nothing but good about these i live in WA. and hope they work for me if i ever run into any bear

RubenZ
July 11, 2007, 12:43 PM
Man that Bear looks beautiful. Why would one hunt bear? is the meat good?

H&Hhunter
July 11, 2007, 05:35 PM
Man that Bear looks beautiful. Why would one hunt bear? is the meat good?

RubenZ

Brown/Grizzly bear meat is some where between rank and fricking rancid! There are some things that are hunted for other reasons than human consumption.

leadcounsel
July 11, 2007, 09:17 PM
A $40 can of bear repellant.

Cosmoline
July 11, 2007, 11:11 PM
Black bear can be good depending on what they're eating. The only people who eat brown bears I know of are a few natives who hunt certain bears at certain times during the winter. I guess the meat on them isn't as bad if they're hibernating.

RubenZ
July 12, 2007, 12:56 AM
I think I've tried Black Bear some time back at a 4H auction benefit in San Antonio. They had booths with all types of game meat to taste. I don't remember it being horrible. But I don't remember it being very tasty either.

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