[Bob R]

PLease.

This is not meant to start a us v. them tirade. I would really like someone to tell me why a county sheriffs dept in SC would need to be decked out as though they are in downtown Baghdad. What is the reason that so many small fry Police dept's have become armed as well, or better than our armed forces? I would really like someone with some knowledge of this to enlighten me.

thanks

bob

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030602/lthumb.1054519824.eric_rudolph_scmc106.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030601/capt.1054493498.eric_rudolph_scmc104.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20030601/mdf289804.jpg

[Psssniper]

All that gear hides the fat
:neener:

[Standing Wolf]

Well, yeah, but America isn't turning into a police state.

[Sodbuster]

One possibility. The sheriff accepts federal grant money to buy these cool things. Or the county commissioners accept for him. With federal money comes strings attached. Loss of local control.

[Sir Galahad]

It's for your protection.:rolleyes: Best way to get around the Posse Comitatus Act is not to make federal military forces into police and risk an uproar, but to arm the police like the federal military forces. It's the "military firepower for police loophole". Yeah, you don't see any senators or congressmen trying to close THAT loophole, do you??

[larry_minn]

I doubt they wear most of that gear on a daily basis. Now when dealing with say a sniper situation or active shooter I would want EVERY advantage I could.

[Don Gwinn]

All that gear hides the fat

Not well.



(If it worked, I'd wear it. ;) )

[Telperion]

I would really like someone to tell me why a county sheriffs dept in SC would need to be decked out as though they are in downtown Baghdad. What is the reason that so many small fry Police dept's have become armed as well, or better than our armed forces? I would really like someone with some knowledge of this to enlighten me.

How about:

I would really like someone to tell me why regular citizens would need to be decked out as though they are in downtown Baghdad. What is the reason that so many gun nuts have become armed as well, or better than our armed forces? I would really like someone with some knowledge of this to enlighten me.

Argument sound familiar? They're just rifles, folks. Wouldn't you expect sheriffs to have them?

[CZ-75]

Argument sound familiar? They're just rifles, folks. Wouldn't you expect sheriffs to have them?

Sorry, but you're all wet on this one. M-4s are select fire NFA weapons.

And would that we could go around decked out as though we were in Baghdad and possess the kind of firepower available to the military and LEOs.

[Skunkabilly]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20030601/mdf289804.jpg

I know a picture doesn't tell all unless you're there but...if that were me on the right, someone in this picture would be about to receive an M16 cracking against their head!! :eek:

As for the sheriffs deputies...looks like M4s with 14.5" and collapsibles? Boo hoo I want :(

Party like it's 9/15/2004!

[Feanaro]

Question, why DON'T they need it? With incidents like the North Hollywood shoot-out even small towns are starting to realize that sometimes handguns don't cut it. On occasion some nut dons a kevlar vest and starts shooting people. That is when you break out the M4s and M16s.

[Jim March]

I'm more concerned about the mindset attached to that "megatactical look". And most of all, I'm concerned about it's over-use.

There ARE specific situations where going in with "overwhelming force" is a good thing - bad guys give up, nobody (on either side) gets hurt. But it should only be used after a detailed and proper *investigation*. The recent New York "flash-bang death" of a granny based purely on an informer's tip is just typical insanity.

Ordinary street cops need more basic handgun/tactical training, and in my opinion access to (and training with) a good pistol-caliber carbine versus the shotgun as the "first go-to long-gun".

At a very basic level, I distrust shotguns. They have their place, yes, but they're not a "precision tool" unless loaded with slugs, at which point overpenetration issues are legendary. With 00 or 000 buckshot, they're a hazard to bystanders; with lighter shot, patterns open up and the range drops. (Which is OK for home defense, not OK for cops.)

In short: ordinary cops need the ability to deal with trouble fast, before it blows up worse. SWAT teams or similar paramilitary stuff is where the full-tilt battle rifles need to be, and that's a VERY small and selectively-used force for specific situations.

That's my opinion, anyways.

[Telperion]

Are you sure they're select-fire? If you are, then you win. But PDs and sheriffs have been buying lots of semi-autos lately.

[Jim March]

Feanaro: this is where I disagree.

A reasonably tuned carbine with either good iron sights or a scout scope, such as a Ruger PC40, would have been able to do headshots at 50 yards in calm moderately trained hands.

Hell, a Winchester or Marlin levergun in 30-30, 44Mag or even 357 at 50 yards would have settled the matter, if that was the first go-to long gun of the street cops present.

The North Hollywood shootout was a case where poorly trained and equipped street cops scrambled to catch up, and did an amazing job - but only by virtue of incredible numbers of such cops. It was madness. They had 75+ cops on-scene within moments, which was great, except the first six with friggin' leverguns could have settled their hash in short order.

What they had instead was handguns they'd probably NEVER fired past 25 yards, and shotguns. :scrutiny:

[CZ-75]

Question, why DON'T they need it? With incidents like the North Hollywood shoot-out even small towns are starting to realize that sometimes handguns don't cut it. On occasion some nut dons a kevlar vest and starts shooting people. That is when you break out the M4s and M16s.


I'm sorry, but I don't want officers commonly equiped with NFA weapons, helmets, and BDUs.

Remington makes a 7600FP in .308 that would be more than adequate for ALL officers to carry in the trunk of their cruiser along with a flak jacket. Aimed fire from a .308 would've been enough to stop the situation w/o select-fires, which I don't believe the LEOs in N. Hollywood had anyway.

[gudel]

on that second pic, that's one fat cop. is he even capable of running after the bad guys? ah heck no, he'll just probably shoot them down like this guy did (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24601)

[Jeff]

'''on that second pic, that's one fat cop. is he even capable of running after the bad guys? ah heck no, he'll just probably shoot them...""


Ha ha, I couldn't agree more.

[Bostonterrier97]

Let's first put this in Historical Perspective and then examine the issue on whether or not police officers NEED all of these gadgets.

200 years ago, (before the existence of a police force) it was common to find that the local constable as well as militia members were suitabley armed with small arms that were similar to what was used by our military. (ie. Flintlock Pistols, and Brown Bess Muskets) along with truncheons.

100 years ago it was common place for the local sherriff to be armed with the then equivalent of an Assault Rifle. A Lever Action Rifle chambered in a Handgun cartridge (44-40).

60 years ago, it was common among Big City police departments to own Tommy guns and BARS in order to carry out raids during the prohibition.

30 years ago, it was common for police officers to be armed with a Smith and Wesson Revolver, a 12 gauge shotgun. And on occasion either a Ruger Mini 14 or a M1 Carbine (for some departments)

---------------------------------

The biggest difference is that between 1940 until 1975 it was rare for police departments to have machine guns (though some did)

Biggest change in police departments over the past 50 years has been communications technology as well as body armor. During the 1960's police departments started to get Helicoptors.

Another REALLY big change has been police departments policy of "proactive" policing, where the police officers have adopted an US vs THEM attitude and tactics similar to an occupying army in enemy territory.

Minor changes have been focusing recruitment of former military personel, combined with a change in uniform: from blue uniforms with ties and a hat, to black BDU's and boots sans Tie.

Simultaneously a large list of laws have been passed over the last 25 years (starting with the "War on Drugs") which have taken away many of our Civil Liberties, combined with US Supreme Court Decisions that allow police officers to conduct "no knock" raids, searches with invalid search warrants, etc.

Also all kinds of gun control laws have been passed with exemptions for police and retired police officers.

-----------------------------

So that is the Historical Perspective up until the Present.

Do Police Officers NEED Semi-Automatic Rifles or select fire rifles?

NO. All they need is a really good Bolt Action Rifle such as the Lee Enfield as well as precision rifles for sniping.

Do Police Officers NEED Semi Automatic Handguns...
Not Really. Most gun fights last about 3 rounds. A revolver works just fine in most circumstances.

(Using Revolvers would reduce the number of accidental shootings committed by police officers)

The use of Black BDU's along with Pro-Active Policing is a public relations nightmare.

[Feanaro]

It's not, as far as I can tell from experiance with police, standard. I have nothing to go on here but standard practice seems to be to have the M4/M16 type weapons in a controller car, it's only used for an emergency. I do agree that making them standard carry (either on the cop's person or in the car) is ridiculous and certainly a slightly disturbing thought. But that does not appear to be the case.

An M4 carbine can shoot out to fifty yards and beyond, is short and easy to move around, kicks little while still performing it's job(making the BG dead). I agree that full auto seems a little like overkill but one never knows.

When the SHTF I see nothing wrong with carrying such weapons. I know I would want the best I could get my hands on. Anyone of you would, I think, would use the best weapon you had. Not a lever action or a pump rifle. But cops can't have those, no.... ;)

[CZ-75]

When I can get an NFA as easily as an LEO can, then I'll consider allowing them to up their firepower.

Considering how many are barely competent with their duty weapon, provided they can even figure out which direction the bullets goes, one wonders if NFA weapons should even be considered for more than 5% of LEOs.

It isn't like the advent of semis for police duty use improved accuracy or anything. Never mind the number of stray shots. Full auto only means most will miss faster. God help the bystanders.

[Feanaro]

When I can get an NFA as easily as an LEO can, then I'll consider allowing them to up their firepower.

I agree but all things being equal I don't see a problem with it. They are not equal but that's what we are trying to change.

Considering how many are barely competent with their duty weapon, provided they can even figure out which direction the bullets goes, one wonders if NFA weapons should even be considered for more than 5% of LEOs.

No arguement there assuming that statement is true. But I don't have the experiance with LEOs to say whether that statement is true or false. But if we can't trust them with NFA weapons can we trust them with handguns? Or our lives? If not then we should either take away their weapons all together or make them qualify more.

It isn't like the advent of semis for police duty use improved accuracy or anything. Never mind the number of stray shots. Full auto only means most will miss faster. God help the bystanders.

Which is assuming they use full auto. They SHOULD stick to semi unless the Mongol hoards are attacking. But again I can't say whether they will or not. If they do abuse full auto then the weapons can be quickly changed to semi.

You seem to think the police are incompetant. I have had much more positive experiances with the LEOs that I know however.

[Destructo6]

Here in Santa Barbara, all the cops have a shotgun, as one would expect, and an AR carbine in the rack. I have no idea whether they're select fire or not. No problem from me; seems prudent. I have yet to hear/see them actually use them.

I do see a problem with the AR/tacticool/chub-cop-in-black-BDUs nonsense.

[arinvolvo]

Maybe they aer graduates of the Skunkabilly school of Tacticality.

[Jim March]

I think it matters a LOT which long-gun is "first at bat". Once a long-gun is in hand, it'll be very difficult (and unlikely) to switch once shots are fired.

I think the shotgun has a lot of problems, but an M4 is overkill. Possibly not though, depends a lot on the ammo. Military ball is too much in an urban environment.

Hence the pistol-caliber carbine.

[Combat-wombat]

In out little town of Atascadero, our cruisers are decked out brand new crown vics with m-4s and tactical shotguns. We even have a few CHP style cruisers with the lights inside the car rather than on top. All this...in Atascadero. I just saw an unmarked car at a house the other day, and a guy in a special black tactical uniform was talking to some people outside. he had the tactical thigh holster and all.

[Delmar]

Call me crazy, but if I understand the second amendment and some of the writings in the Federalist Papers, aren't the citizens of this country supposed to be armed similarly?

[Skunkabilly]

and a guy in a special black tactical uniform was talking to some people outside. he had the tactical thigh holster and all.

Was he a K9 officer?

[CZ-75]

You seem to think the police are incompetant. I have had much more positive experiances with the LEOs that I know however.


I think we have a few LE weapons instructors here, as well as LEOs in general. I'm not overly confident about most cops from what I've read from them.

The LEOs I meet around the range aren't too bad, but I've known a few, personally, who had gun-cleaning "accidents," including a friend's dad who shot himself in the leg.

Shades of Barney Fife.

[Mark Tyson]

I see nothing wrong with the police having these weapons available, as long as they are compotent in their use. In some limited, highly dangerous situations these weapons are necessary. True, many officers rarely have to use deadly force at all, much less this level of force. Nevertheless it is a dangerous world and the police should have the best tools available to them.

What bothers me is the "military mindset", and the "Us versus Them" attitude alluded to in this thread. It is behavior and attitude that bother me, not the mere presence of these particular guns.

I also see nothing wrong with responsible, law abiding civilians having just as much firepower available to them.

These guns have their place in police arsenals. Like all guns, they are just tools, no more, no less.

[CZ-75]

These guns have their place in police arsenals.

Which is where they should stay, unless the officer is well qualified to use one. Even so, probably not all those qualified should get to carry on a regular basis.

I still don't see what a carbine or light rifle can't do that a select-fire could for all but hostage-rescue situations.

I'd be way happier with more (well-qualified) officers being issued rifles than select-fire weapons, which are mostly an ego-booster and match the BDUs and mindset of those who want to wield them.

[Baba Louie]

Well, there IS this little thing called a War on Terrorism and usually the 101st Airborne isn't found on Main Street in downtown USA and probably couldn't respond as fast as the local boys in blue.

That's one potential reason.

War on some Drugs. I'd prefer for the boys in blue to have mucho more firepower than any adversary they may end up facing. Just to use the fear factor of "don't even think of messing with us", for those who feel the need, but this is usually the one area where the no-knocks either work well and we don't read about it or else something goes south terribly and we do end up reading and questioning why, why, why?

That may or may not be another (good) reason.

They won't carry them if they're not qualified as I understand it due to liability issues, right?

But even tho' it doesn't really feel like it, we are at war with some pretty strange zealots who have shown a propensity to explode themselves and others to smithareens (OK so only a couple of buildings and a few thousand innocent people went down and I know, not one of the jihadist had a bomb on them, they were flying them).

I like the message "of don't mess with us" that they convey.

I've never yet been violated by a local officer of the law carrying anything like that and hope that I never am.

But as history shows, the bad guys are getting a little more extreme and a little more active than say, Bonnie and Clyde and Dillinger et al of the 20's/30's era... well those are probably some extremely extreme examples, but you know what I mean (I hope), desperados of days gone by.

Would you really have them use lever actions in this day and age, or limit them to bolt action or worse yet, handguns and shotguns only? Or worse yet, hobble LE in their/our efforts to protect our communities? They are on our side and I/we(?) are on their side, right. Law and Order?

Judging from the photo's tho', some of those officers might want to invest in a little dieting and caloric burn-off, but who am I to say? Maybe all of the other applicants were found wanting for one reason or another.

I would hate to get "combative" with any of them

Adios

[CR_OPSO]

When I can get an NFA as easily as an LEO can...
My department doesn't allow NFA weapons. For some reason the last group of rifles purchased were full-auto - but were converted immediately.
We're allowed to buy our own AR15 (postban) and have to take the patrol rifle course before we put it in the trunk.
We still wear full-dress uniforms (minus hat and tie - but they still issue the hat and tie for some reason - maybe funerals?).
We've had 2 shootings recently with a BG carrying a rifle, so they're pushing for us to at least have a rifle handy in case it's needed.
To those that think a bolt action would work - you've got to get close enough to try to talk the guy down - you don't just shoot everybody from 100 yards off (contrary to what some think on this board). Then there's cases where you're dealing with several BGs - bolt action? Don't think so.
As far as handgun caliber rifles - ask the guys at AR15.com - seems that the general consensus is that the .223 penetrates LESS than pistol caliber carbines (because it tumbles when it hits) - making it MORE suitable for the urban environment. It's also good for longer distances than the pistol caliber. The only possible drawback is if you miss, the bullet is going to travel further before it hits the ground. Basically it's a hard rifle to beat for the intended purpose. I have NEVER seen one out on a call - we try to avoid that image. And you can buy the exact same rifle I bought (Bushmaster Shorty A3).
We don't ALL get those fancy toys.
CR
(oh and I do agree that in most cases a semi-auto carbine is all you need - full auto is a waste of ammo IMO)

[CZ-75]

Well, there IS this little thing called a War on Terrorism and usually the 101st Airborne isn't found on Main Street in downtown USA and probably couldn't respond as fast as the local boys in blue.

Actually, I think most have gone to black when it comes to their BDUs.

However, let's get real about "threat" level here. Muskogee, OK probably isn't next on Osama's TO-DO list. Hence, they don't need the latest belt-fed dohickey to protect themselves from a threat. NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, Seattle, LA, Boston, DC, etc. probably do need select-fire weaponry for a limited number of their cops (AKA "SWAT). We must remember, though that planting bombs, delivering germs, poisoning the water, and crashing planes into buildings aren't problems the local constabulary is going to solve with massive issue of MP-5s et al.

Again, in the WOD (we won't argue that the whole thing is BS here), SOME officers need NFA weapons.

Overall, however, most officers don't need NFA weapons and I don't want to see something like MA, where the state stormtroopers are wielding NFA weapons at Logan Airport. Most officers would be better served with a rifle and staying out of range of the baddies while delivering accurate longer range return fire.

[Peetmoss]

That srg has seen a few to many doughnut shops :what: I bet he doesn't jup over many fences:D

[Nightfall]

An M4 in the trunk of a trained officer's car is okay with me... so long as I can own the same thing.

[Monte Harrison]

No department wanted to be the last one carrying revolvers, either.

[12.7x99mm]

Call me crazy, but if I understand the second amendment and some of the writings in the Federalist Papers, aren't the citizens of this country supposed to be armed similarly?

And your not? :rolleyes: :)

[Henry Bowman]

What is the reason that so many gun nuts have become armed as well, or better than our armed forces?
The reason? Because we are supposed to be.

I say, let them have anything that we can have. Let them live under the same restrictions we live under. Uh, Oh. There goes that "us vs. them" thing.:rolleyes:

[Delmar]

And your not?
Well no, I can't seem to find the 3 shot selector switch.......