+p and +p+

[TimboKhan]

This might be sort of a dumb thing to say, but why in the world do people shoot +p and +p+ ammo? It seems to me that it is signifigantly hard on the gun, and that the increase in velocity is fairly pointless, given the ranges most pistols are used in. I mean, a bad guy is just as dead at 20 feet from 950 FPS as he is from 1300 fps, right? I mean, shoot what you want and everything, but personally I just fail to see any particular advantage...

[Waywatcher]

Its not particularily hard on some guns, e.g. 9mm Glocks, 357's firing 38+P's, etc.

Extending your velocity "logic" one step further, why would any pistol round be supersonic? Velocity is obviously important.

Mostly its about eeking out every last ounce of effectivness from a given platform. And why not?

[Shipwreck]

Well, I personally am not into using +p. It does kick harder when using the stuff.

Using +p+ is not a good idea, as there is no specs at all. It can be anything, and U can really risk damaging your gun that way.

[orionengnr]

Okay, I'll answer that one.

Most HP ammo is designed to expand at(or above) a certain velocity.

My carry choice is short barreled to enhance concealability (Kahr PM9).

Short barrel = loss of velocity. Uncertain/doubtful expansion

+p or +p+ ammo = increased velocity. Better chance for expansion.

So, I could carry a 5 inch barrel with standard pressure ammo, or a 3 incher with +p+ with about the same velocity and about the same likelihood of expansion.

Easy choice for me.

I don't run thousands of +p+ rounds through it. I practice with standard pressure and finish up with a mag of the good stuff.

Fair enough?

[Manedwolf]

I have 9mm +P+ 127gr Ranger for emergencies, not as a daily range ammo, for certain. If you did that, you'd need heavier springs in most guns.

And it's not too rough on SOME guns. A Taurus PT92 or Beretta 92FS would certainly have no issues with it. You'd just want to make sure it worked reliably.

But if I were wearing the Taurus in a post-disaster scenario, it'd definitely have 17rds of the Ranger +P+ in it.

It seems to me that it is signifigantly hard on the gun, and that the increase in velocity is fairly pointless, given the ranges most pistols are used in. I mean, a bad guy is just as dead at 20 feet from 950 FPS as he is from 1300 fps, right?

What do you care about more, causing some wear on your gun, or better odds of stopping a threat that's about to kill you?

[nemoaz]

At least in 9mm (.355 magnabellum :) ), +P+ is basically the same velocity as the milspec stuff. Most of the regular .355 magnabellum in this country is fairly slow.

I mean, a bad guy is just as dead at 20 feet from 950 FPS as he is from 1300 fps, right?

Uhhh, no. Not really. If this were the case then .44 magnum would do no more damage than .44 special. E=M * C squared. That is always the case. More energy = more damage for a variety of reasons including more expansion of that .355 magnum bullet to .72 caliber or so. Of course, if you are stuck with non-expanding ammo, more velocity just means a deeper hole.

Pretty soon, some guy will come on here and say that bullet diameter is all that matters. He doesn't know much about science (or medicine) unfortunately. Sir Isaac Newton was right, E= M * C squared.

[TimboKhan]

OK, these are logical arguments for. Like I said, I am not trying to say the stuff should be outlawed, I just never understood the logic behind using it. However, I will argue the semantics of one point that was made...

If this were the case then .44 magnum would do no more damage than .44 special.

No, it wouldn't. Dead is dead, man. Assuming a one-shot stop (and yes, I know that one shot stops aren't something to gamble on, it's just for the sake of the argument), then in both cases the bullets were equal. Yes, the .44mag may have done more damage, but the bad guy is dead in either scenario. Put more simply, more damage doesn't equal deader bad guy. You can't be dead +1 or anything....

[Lone_Gunman]

Pretty soon, some guy will come on here and say that bullet diameter is all that matters. He doesn't know much about science (or medicine) unfortunately.


Well I guess I will be that guy, and I am a general/vascular/trauma surgeon.

The energy of a handgun bullet does not cause direct tissue trauma in and of itself, because they simply do not have enough energy or velocity to cause permanent tissue trauma. A bullet moving at common handgun velocities, and in fact probably up to somewhere around 1800-2000 fps, does not damage tissue in any way other than by cutting a hole through it. So a big hole is better.

Now, the energy of a handgun bullet is nevertheless extremely important, just not because of some effect (or lack thereof) on tissue trauma. Energy causes the bullet to expand to a larger diameter upon contact with the target. This larger diameter hole is what causes better trauma.

A high velocity 9mm JHP damages more tissue than a FMJ because the JHP expands to a larger diameter.

[Waywatcher]

Sir Isaac Newton was right, E= M * C squared.

Wasn't this Einstein?

In any case the physics equation you want is for Kinetic energy: E = (1/2 Mass) * Velocity squared.

[Waywatcher]

A high velocity 9mm JHP damages more tissue than a FMJ because the JHP expands to a larger diameter.

Here's an interesting question to ponder: Which round would cause more damage, a .25 that expands to .45 with nice sharp petals, or a .45 FMJ round nose? (Assuming equal penetration)

I think the point I'm getting at is whats called the 'temporary cavity' in ballistics, and I think expanding bullets have a much more impressive temporary cavity.

[Lone_Gunman]

Temporary cavity from handgun calibers does not cause trauma.

[Waywatcher]

Put more simply, more damage doesn't equal deader bad guy. You can't be dead +1 or anything....


If you look at two opposite extremes, say a .22 through the heart or a 30-06, I can tell you right now which would be my first choice even though they'll both "kill a guy just as dead".

My same logic applies to handguns, why not use a more powerful round? If it doesn't hurt the gun or the shooter, and the difference in shot-to-shot recovery times for me is less than .01 seconds, so why not?

[Waywatcher]

Temporary cavity from handgun calibers does not cause trauma.


I didnt say that it does.

I was asking you which you think is more effective: A .25 that expands to .45 with nice sharp petals, or a .45 FMJ round nose? (Assuming equal penetration)

[Lone_Gunman]

I do not think it is possible to expand a 25 caliber handgun bullet to 45 caliber, and still get the penetration of the 45 ACP. I think the bullet would fragment, lose mass, and lose too much energy too quickly to penetrate that much. If you are asking this question theoretically, I really don't have an answer. I think in order do what you described, you would have to drive the 25 caliber bullet to very high velocities, and use bonded bullets to keep it together. Something like a 25-06 rifle cartridge. But then we get into a different situation, as rifle ballistics are entirely different, and the energy involved does traumatize tissue. In that situation, the rifle would certainly beat the heck out of a 45.


As for the sharp petals, I do not think they do more damage than if there were no petals, as long as the final bullet diameters are the same. 45 ACP FMJ's can make holes a little bit smaller than .45 inch, as tissue can sometimes to stretch and the actual physical hole can sometimes be a little smaller.

[Waywatcher]

I was asking theoretically, perhaps I was using a bad example.

What about a .40 bullet that expands to .45" vs 45 FMJ?

Or what about a .357 wadcutter vs a .357 round nose?

[RoyJackson]

IMHO, +P ammo is an advantage in a smaller CCW gun such as a .38 snubby.

I keep +P frangible ammunition in a Taurus 85 which I carry. I shoot standard pressure ammo when I'm practicing.
I also carry +p or +P+ in my Glock 19 (another gun I carry)...but again once the gun/ammo combination is considered reliable, I practice with standard pressure ammunition.

[MCgunner]

The .357 magnum out of a 4" gun has the best street record extant. It does that with 125 grain bullets traveling around 1400+ fps. Yeah, more velocity the better. Why I shoot +P in .38 and 9 is I want to assure bullet expansion. The 158 grain +P FBI load has a good street record, so I use it. A large diameter round does me no good if I can't conceal and carry it. My KT P11 and my little ultralite M85 Taurus are +P rated and that's what I carry. If I could put a 10mm auto or a .460 Magnum revolver in my pocket, hey, I'd do it. I practice with standard ammo, carry +P.

[Lone_Gunman]

What about a .40 bullet that expands to .45" vs 45 FMJ?


The winner would be whichever punches the largest diameter hole.

[nemoaz]

Yeah, off my game this morning. I can actually summon the other formulas if given enough time and caffeine.

[Jim Keenan]

In .38 Special, +P+ is supposedly the same pressure level as .357 Magnum and is to be fired only in revolvers made for the latter caliber.

The .38 Special +P+ was purely a public relations caliber. Police departments who went to .357 Magnum came under heavy criticism from the press and "civil rights" organizations for using ammunition that was overpowered, would be too hard on bad guys and would supposedly kill innocent people miles away.

So, along came the +P+, which is almost exactly the same power level as the .357, but when the police spokesman had to talk about a shooting by a cop, he could deny that the department used the "awful" .357, and say that they were using the standard .38 that they have used for years. ("Aw, shucks, our Mayberry police wouldn't never use that there high power .357, just the old .38 like we carry in our shirt pockets, yes sir.")

Jim

[Lone_Gunman]

38 Special +P+ only comes close to very low end 357 magnum. About 1150 fps is as fast as it goes, and that is mostly with lighter bullet weights.

[razorburn]

E=M * C squared. That is always the case.

That's Einstein's relativity equation which relates energy to mass. It converts units of mass to units of energy. It has nothing to do with measuring the kinetic energy of a bullet. It's a counter to Newtonian mechanics, and asserts that a body at rest has an enormous amount of energy based sheerly off it's mass.

[TimboKhan]

If you look at two opposite extremes, say a .22 through the heart or a 30-06, I can tell you right now which would be my first choice even though they'll both "kill a guy just as dead".

My same logic applies to handguns, why not use a more powerful round? If it doesn't hurt the gun or the shooter, and the difference in shot-to-shot recovery times for me is less than .01 seconds, so why not?

Well, let me answer these questions. First off, a .22 vs. a .30-06 isn't a fair comparison, because the bullets are widely dissimilar, among a plethora of other reasons. A 9mm and a +P 9mm are considerably more similar. My whole point was that I wasn't sure why the wear and tear and increased recoil would be worth it, and I have to say that question was answered. Still, at the heart of the argument, I maintain that dead is dead, whether it be from a katana, a .308 or a aluminium bat.

Secondly, I can dig what your saying, but I think that in some cases it does hurt the gun. Certainly, if you want a more powerful round, then thats your choice, and there isn't a thing in the world wrong with that.

[rockstar.esq]

Lone gunmans posts have been enlightening to the extent that being a surgeon and a shooter certainly affords a unique perspective.

Personally I think the +P+ = Magnum disguise isn't too far from reality. I don't pack expanding projectiles mainly because I don't want an attorney telling a jury of my peers that I loaded "extra deadly" bullets because I'm such a war mongering ninja wannabe.

With that basis, I use a .45ACP and a .44spl figuring that either diameter is large enough and fast enough to decisively put to rest any worries about bringing enough gun.

[Waywatcher]

The winner would be whichever punches the largest diameter hole.
You're missing my point. Each time I've asked you "if other factors were equal" questions you haven't had a legitimate response, you just dodge the question.

But then we get into a different situation, as rifle ballistics are entirely different, and the energy involved does traumatize tissue

So anyways whats the 'magic' velocity where energy suddenly becomes important?

[Lone_Gunman]

Waywatcher, maybe you can restate your question better and I can give a better answer. If two bullets cut the same diameter hole, for the same depth, then they would cause equal tissue trauma. None of the combinations you had suggested would do that exactly, though they would be close. They would be so close, in fact, that there would probably be very little difference in overall effect.

For example, a 38 wadcutter will cut a wound with a larger volume tan a 38 FMJ, and this would favor the wadcutter in terms of effectiveness. But it is only a small amount of difference in wound volume, and may not make any difference at all in terms of stopping ability.

As for the velocity threshold, it is somewhere in the ballpark of 2000 fps.

[MCgunner]

As for the velocity threshold, it is somewhere in the ballpark of 2000 fps.

In your humble opinion. My guess is you're a worshipper in the church of the .45, Jeff Cooper pastor. Nothing wrong with that, I own a .45. But, when it comes to terminal ballistics, there's more than one opinion and opinions are like....well....you know, everybody has one. I've shot deer with a .357 magnum and examined the wounding and I've seen 'em go down with a lung shot. I've got other opinions on your magic number, just from hunting experience. But, then, I had a hard time in comparative Chordate anatomy, no doctor.

[ugaarguy]

Lone Gunman, correct me if I'm wrong good Doctor, but isn't it more of an energy threshold than a velocity threshold? If what I've read is correct isn't something like 1300 ft/lbs energy the threshold at which the energy radially exerted by the round moving thru flesh causes permanent vs temporary wound cavity? So wouldn't it be whatever velocity is needed to get a round of given weight to where it's carry 1300 + FPE?

[MCgunner]

Oh, I've heard 1000 ft lbs also on the energy threshold. I've also heard that it takes far less to do permanent nerve damage in the proximity of the bullet's path without the nerve actually being hit. Whatever, I just chose a good service caliber that I can conceal with a hollowpoint bullet just IN CASE energy matters, load it with the most powerful reliable and accurate ammo I can, and teach myself to shoot for center mass until the BG stops, and I don't worry a lot about theory when I'm walking the mean streets.

When it comes to caliber for my IWB gun, I tend to trust the .357 magnum 125 grain JHP at 500+ ft lbs from its 3" tube over my .45 loaded with Speer 200 JHPs at 400 ft lbs, but that's just me. Besides, the revolver bulges less. My revolver only holds two less rounds and the power of those rounds is pretty comforting. I always have a 9 for back up in a pocket when I carry IWB, though.

[Lone_Gunman]

Yes, energy is what is important here more than velocity. The 2000 fps is a ball park number , and bullet weight would play a role, no doubt. I would accept 1000-1300 ft lbs of energy as an alternative (and better) threshold for tissue injury, but I believe my ballpark velocity of 2000 fps is what common handgun bullet weights (say 115-150g) would need to be moving near to get that kind of energy. I would need to pull out the ballistics charts to check that. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

MCGunner, I think 45 ACP is a fine handgun cartridge, but I currently carry Winchester 9mm Ranger 127 +P+ hollowpoints in a Glock 19, and I think that does a fine job too. I get about 1250 fps out of this round, which is getting very close to 357 magnum ballistics. I agree with you also that there is something special about the stopping ability of the 357magnum cartridge. Your comments about the effects of 357 on deer are interesting, and I believe what you say. However, I think that the knock down effect you have experienced with 357 magnum, which is attributable to the energy, did not cause any specific, observable additional tissue damage beyond what the bullet itself caused. In other words, if you put the tissue around the bullet cavity under a microscope, I don't think you would observe any cells that had died from the energy transfer. Now that extra energy did have an effect on the deer; it knocked him down like a punch in the solar plexus. That extra energy also caused the bullet to expand violently I would guess or penetrate better, which also caused more injury, and caused the deer to succumb more quickly.

The point I am trying to make is that below a certain energy threshold, tissue that is not cut by the bullet does not seem to be injured. A few years ago a woman was walking around through the woods, when she was shot through her thigh by a deer hunter. The bullet went through her leg, just muscle and fatty tissue, nothing vital. When she came into the ER, she had a nice 30 caliber entrance wound, and 30 caliber exit wound with no other visible signs of injury. We observed her, and over the next 48 or so hours, it became obvious that the tissue around the wound channel was dying. Ultimately, an area about 3 inches in diameter died and had to be surgically debrided. This tissue was well away from the wound cavity, and could only have been damaged by the excess energy of the high powered rifle round. When I talk about tissue trauma from energy, that is what I am talking about.

Your effect of the 357 magnum on deer is different. It is not about additional trauma that becomes obvious over a few days. It is about an immediately incapacitating effect of the energy transfer.

[Joshua M. Smith]

The 9mm Luger was originally loaded with a truncated bullet travelling at around 1250fps.

At the end of the world wars, there was an influx of (sometimes) badly made 9mm firearms coming into this country. Not wanting to be held liable, ammo makers downloaded the 9mm round to what we know as "standard pressure" today.

Soooo... in 9mm, "standard pressure" is actually a watered down load and shouldn't be expected to perform as the original. In fact, some original Lugers have trouble cycling with this stuff.

My Taurus 92 came with a manual which said that "this firearm is not guaranteed to operate with anything other than FMJ ammunition weighing 124gr and travelling at 1230fps." That sure sounds like the original loading to me, what we call +P (or, in some cases, +P+) today.

I have it functioning well with all ammo now, but when I first got it, what the manual said was true (this is an older one gents). It would choke on WWB: 115gr bullet at 1100 or so fps.

I believe that the +P in Cor®Bon or Black Hills simply brings the round back to its original potential.

When looking at .45acp, it is loaded to its original specs. I wouldn't go to +P on that, because it's already where it should be.

Josh <><

[MCgunner]

MCGunner, I think 45 ACP is a fine handgun cartridge, but I currently carry Winchester 9mm Ranger 127 +P+ hollowpoints in a Glock 19, and I think that does a fine job too. I get about 1250 fps out of this round, which is getting very close to 357 magnum ballistics. I agree with you also that there is something special about the stopping ability of the 357magnum cartridge. Your comments about the effects of 357 on deer are interesting, and I believe what you say. However, I think that the knock down effect you have experienced with 357 magnum, which is attributable to the energy, did not cause any specific, observable additional tissue damage beyond what the bullet itself caused. In other words, if you put the tissue around the bullet cavity under a microscope, I don't think you would observe any cells that had died from the energy transfer. Now that extra energy did have an effect on the deer; it knocked him down like a punch in the solar plexus. That extra energy also caused the bullet to expand violently I would guess, which also caused more injury.

Well, see, I've always shot 158 grain hard cast SWCs on game, roflmao! However, I have a newish load I'm shooting from my Blackhawk lately that makes near 800 ft lbs and shoots a 180 grain Hornady JHP, so it will expand. Haven't shot anything with that load, yet, though.

I have noticed in the lung tissue, a 3" diameter blooded, messed up looking layer of tissue surrounding the hole the bullet actually made, though. This is fired from the Blackhawk about about 760 ft lbs of muzzle energy and probably about 600 at point of impact. I, of course, didn't examine the tissue under a microscope, but the damage looked pretty impressive off that flat point bullet. It did NOT have any sort of permanent cavity, though, just blooded tissue around the wound channel about 3" in diameter full length. The bullet fully penetrated both sides. The idea I have of using the 180 JHP is to insure full penetration while adding some hollowpoint expansion to increase energy transfer and tissue trauma. I know from my hunting that full penetration of the animal is desirable. You do NOT want the bullet stoppiing inside if only because if the animal does go very far after the shot, there will be no blood trail, but there is more blood loss with a full penetration.

I remember discussions with Dr. Courtney in which he said there is no magic energy threshold, that the pressure wave is a linear relationship to energy transfer. There is no point at which all of a sudden there's massive trauma from a huge increase in the pressure wave from a magic velocity threshold. I believe him. He's done the studies and written the papers. But, I also agree with you that at NORMAL handgun velocities, tissue crush damage is more important than energy transfer in causing trauma. The reason I think this is that most handgun cartridges that are half way effective make less than 400 ft lbs and that ain't just one heck of a whole lot. In the case of a .38+P, you're talkin' about 270 ft lbs out of my 2" .38. Now, the .38 works, street results prove that, but just HOW it works probably has more to do with direct tissue damage because 270 ft lbs just ain't that much energy. You have to get up into the .357 magnum range IMHO, and that's an opinion based mostly on hunting cause I don't go around shooting people and cutting them open, to see much pressure wave effect causing much damage. This is why I don't consider the .45ACP a hunting round, just not enough energy possible in the cartridge on medium game, not to mention the limited range. The .357 is the FAR better caliber on deer out to 50 yards. The .357 certainly is no rifle, though. The trauma I've seen in deer from a 7mm Remington Magnum has to be seen to be believed. :what:

In a carry gun, you have to make compromises for portability, concealment. I pocket carry a lot and the most powerful 9mm I can put in my pocket is what I carry, makes 410 ft lbs. It may not be a .357 (pretty close considering the .357 out of a 2" gun has to strain to equal it), but it's superior to the non-+P at maybe 300 ft lbs from a 3" barrel. If nothing else, the extra velocity, energy, will help that bullet to expand and cause more crush damage and it's twice what I can get from a .380. When I IWB, like I say, I find myself, now that I purchased a 3" .357 revolver, carrying that in preference to my .45. I have confidence in the power of the caliber from hunting and I shoot it well. It also conceals better. I could work up a +P .45 load in excess of 500 ft lbs, but really, I ain't THAT much of a stickler for energy. When I do carry that .45, I know I can hit with it. I shoot that gun as well or better than anything I own. Putting 'em where it counts is worth a lot more than a few hundred ft lbs. Maybe I'll work on a +P .45 for self defense in the future.

But, regards to the use of +P, for me, it's better, especially when the difference in velocity may mean that the bullet expands and causes more wound trauma. I shoot hollow points for that reason, to be more effective, whether it's wound trauma or energy transfer that's making the difference. You can't deny that bullet expansion is desirable. More energy is better in a given caliber, it ain't just the diameter of the unfired bullet.

[Lone_Gunman]

I have noticed in the lung tissue, a 3" diameter blooded, messed up looking layer of tissue surrounding the hole the bullet actually made, though.

That was probably mainly just hemorrhage into the tissue around the bullet tract.

After reading your post, I am not sure what we are disagreeing on, if anything.

I think we both would agree that:
--At normal handgun velocities, tissue trauma is caused by the bullet cutting through tissue.
--Energy transfer can result in incapacitation in ways not observable under the microscope.
--At normal handgun velocities, the main benefit from more energy is more reliable expansion of the projectile, and deeper penetration.
--And finally, 45 ACP and 357 magnum are both high on the list of handgun cartridges to avoid being shot by.

[MCgunner]

After reading your post, I am not sure what we are disagreeing on, if anything.

LOL, I agree with that, too. :D No, with marginal calibers I totally agree with you that there isn't much energy related effects from a handgun. You have to get up in the magnums to notice much of anything. I do think that more velocity, energy is always better. I don't see +P ammo as worthless (the original post) if only that it can help insure bullet expansion. And, there's the chance that the pressure wave could cause a neuron or ten to shut down if the bullet passes near by a major nerve or the spine or something. Every chance helps. All I can do as the shooter defending myself is put the bullets in the right place. Once they're launched, I have no control over how they work. :D But, every edge I can get when working with a caliber, I'll take it.

[becket]

Doctor, please enlighten me on one point:
You mentioned the diameter of the hole was the deciding factor, and not whether it was caused by a 'petaled" HP, or a round-nose? If I read that correctly, wouldn't the cutting part of the equal diameter expanded hollowpoint be more effective at cutting into arteries and veins, since tissue is very elastic, and the round-nose may just push the bloodcarrying tubes aside as it goes through and makes its hole in less vital tissue? Wouldn't the chances of a cut artery or vein go up with the expanded HP since it would cut, and not push aside, these vital little parts? I have no answer, just a theory, so please set me straight, thanks

[Lone_Gunman]

Theoretically, what you are saying would seem to make sense. From a practical standpoint, I have never seen anyone shot with a hollowpoint whose wound was any worse than it would have been from a FMJ travelling through the same path.

In other words, I cannot look at a bullet wound and tell if it was made by a hollowpoint or FMJ.

Now understand, my viewpoint may be skewed by the fact that the people I treat are still alive, and therefore we would assume have less severe injuries than those who died at the scene. However, I believe Martin Fackler (who is a pathologist) has said that he can't tell the difference between FMJ and JHP wounds either, and he certainly has seen his share of autopsies.

Lastly, let me say I don't consider myself an expert at how bullets cause incapacitation. I am just recounting my observations of people who were shot, and subsequently lived at least long enough to make it to the hospital. There are many many factors involved in what actually may stop an attacker, and a "stop" does not always translate into any serious injury at all. What happens on the street, and not in the operating room, is ultimately important.

[TimboKhan]

well, this turned out to be a fairly interesting question, with a good deal of information being thrown about. This is why I like the High Road.

[redneckdan]

the beretta 92 is not a good choice for +p and +p+. Some military units had problems with soldiers getting cold cocked with broken slides from excesive use of +p ammo.

[MCgunner]

Another hunting analogy, but I've shot literally HUNDREDS of squirrel. At an early age, I learned that .22 solids did far less meat damage than hollowpoints. I much prefer to squirrel hunt with a solid. You can trash the whole front of the squirrel with a shoulder hit in a hollowpont. I call BS to that hollowpoint doesn't do any more damage than a round nose. :rolleyes: Yeah, that .22 was out of a rifle, but hey, I get handgun velocities from even HV hollowpoints out of my rifles, around 1200-1300 fps. I don't hunt with Stingers. And, energies are under 200 ft lbs with a .22. Also, a squirrel is maybe a couple inches thick? Imagine the tissue damage of that hollowpoint on a larger animal where the bullet fully penetrates. That's why I prefer hollowpoints on rabbit, armadillo, racoon, bigger animals shot with a .22. There is quite a quicker kill on heavier small game with a hollowpoint than a solid, I know this from hunting experience. I put my trust in the hollowpoint, thank you, all theoretical BS asside. I've seen this first hand over many years of hunting experience.

[nemoaz]

///

[Geno]

As I view several websites for data in preparation for this post, I was rather amazed to see the extent to which some rounds are intentionally underpowered. For example, as I viewed the reloading data for the .38 Super, I finally decided to keep my focus therein, because I was ready to retort, “If you want a hot 9MM load, just buy the .38 Super!” Such can not be the case. Here’s why. I looked in the Modern Reloading, 2nd Ed., by Richard Lee, page 541. Lee lists the .38 Super with some pretty impressive loads. Note the following examples:

115 grain jacketed bullet: 1,519 FPS
124 grain jacketed bullet: 1,594 FPS
130 grain jacketed bullet: 1,457 FPS

Those are so pretty impressive velocities out of an auto pistol! So, next, I began reviewing sites for factory-loaded ammunition in reaction to some people’s postings here that factory loads are extremely low. Their assertions seem to be correct. See the following website regarding the .38 Super +P. Note the velocity listed for the 130 grain jacketed bullet:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/resource/remington_charts/handbal.htm

130 grain jacketed bullet +P: 1,215 FPS? :confused: That's a +P load???

How can the company possibly legitimate downloading the round to this extent? They have their factory load 104 FPS under the Lee starting load and call it a +P load??? Note too that their factory load is 242 FPS slower than Lee’s max listed. In fact, Lee lists the starting load for the .38 Super at 1,319 FPS. So, my take is, if you want hot loads for your 9MM, either hand-load your 9MM Luger, or buy a .38 Super and handload it. Wow, what a learning experience.

I think the "why" people fire +P or +P+ loads is to get their rounds to the velocity for which their pistols were designed. Given that the +P loads are 104 FPS under even reload starting points, I argue that we run precious little risk of kabooms from +P or even +P+ loads. My view, forget the +P and +P+ loads and reload.

Thanks for starting this thread.

Doc2005

[MK11]

If you can't tell the diffence between FMJ and hollowpoint, can you tell the difference between .45ACP and say, .32? I wouldn't be in the position to know but I've read that most medical examiners can't.

[Lone_Gunman]

Yes, you can tell the difference between a 45 and a 32, but between a 45 and a 38, it would be hard, and between a 38 and a 32, it would also be hard.

MCGunner, I am not sure how much of a conclusion to draw from the squirrel analogy.

If a squirrel weighs 2 pounds, and you shoot him with a 40 grain bullet with 150 ft lbs energy, that is a much more massive hit relative to the size of the squirrel than if you shoot a 200 pound human being with a 125g bullet with 400 ft lbs of energy.

[Geno]

The thread has mutated. The originator asked why people would shoot +P or +P+ loads. :banghead:

Doc2005

[benEzra]

My CCW 9mm (actually, my only 9mm) is a S&W 3913 LadySmith, a single-stack, short-barreled pistol that only holds 8+1. Like orionengnr said, you do lose some velocity in a shorter-barreled pistol, and +p helps gain some of that back. The other issue is, I do believe that energy dump does contribute to incapacitation via one of several possible mechanisms, and feel that a JHP that sort of splits the difference between ordinary 9mm factory loads (which tend to be a bit underpowered) and .357, is going to be better than the lower-velocity 9mm. So since I shoot a low-capacity, short-barreled pistol, my personal preference is Cor-Bon 115gr JHP +P.

If velocity and energy were meaningless, a .357 wouldn't be any more effective than a standard-pressure .38, IMO.

I am aware that much use of +P in the 3913 will dramatically shorten its life. I do run a Wolff recoil spring, and most of my practice/recreational shooting is with standard-pressure 9mm loads. I just shoot enough +P to ensure the gun works with it and that I can shoot it as well as the standard-pressure variety (honestly, there's not much recoil difference, but the +P barks louder).

[Dr.Rob]

+p doesn't always mean greater speed... look at and compare some +p vs standard pressure loads between mfg's and you will often see overlaps.

That said, if your firearm isn't +p rated, don't load it as such.

[TimboKhan]

Part of the reason I asked this question was that I have shot +p before.
Purely from feel, when I ran some +P .45 out of my P90, I felt and heard a noticable difference between it and a standard load. By that I mean that the slide was really slapping back hard, and there was an increase in noticed recoil. The recoil wasn't such an issue, as it still fell well within the range of "acceptable", but it just felt like my pistol was really taking a pounding. Personally, I just couldn't justify the greater velocity against the abuse (either real or percieved) of my gun.

Now, that is a fairly uneducated opinion given that some (notably Doc) have probably forgotten more about ballistics than I will ever know. Anyway, I read a post or 5 about +P, measured it against my experience (which actually occured a few years ago), and asked the question. I appreciate all the answers!

[Dr.Rob]

Well here's a thought. 9mm cases vary GREATLY in capacity and most load books WARN about this, as a SAAMI spec load on a Federal nickel case might be a +P+ in say, IMI brass. Seat your bullet too far, you can create a compressed load even though your load book says it's ok.

This is not AS MUCH the case with other calibers.

Most MFG's don't load into the high end of SAAMI, and we can thank lawyers for that.

So is there such a thing as +P? There is certainly such a thing as overpressure.

[Joshua M. Smith]

On January 29th, 2007 11:35 AM redneckdan said:the beretta 92 is not a good choice for +p and +p+. Some military units had problems with soldiers getting cold cocked with broken slides from excesive use of +p ammo.

Dan, this is only partially correct at best and misleading. The problem was due to excessively hot (machine gun) ammo and a bad run of slides.

As well, some crazy SEALs decided to see what the gun could take. My cousin was one of them.

The current military load runs up in the +P and +P+ pressures.

Josh <><

[packfan]

The equation you are looking for is F=M*A, where f= force, M=Mass (of bullet in this case), A=acceleration (or deaceleration in the case of a bullet impacting an object)