[firestar]

I have bought or tried many of the "mouse guns" and I have yet to find one that works as well as I would like for a self defense pistol.

I know that you have to expect a jam every now and then even in full sized models but I really haven't seen what I would call a reliable tiny automatic.

Kel-Tecs are out because they can't be trusted. I have seen the tiny Berettas fail too often to consider them reliable enough for defense. Taurus PT-22 was junk. All the cheapo pocket guns are crap, Jennings, Raven, etc. Seecamp, NAA Gaurdian, and Autauga have their own problems.

Are we just not there yet? Is making a reliable mouse gun impossible? From what I have seen, nothing really is an improvment on the .38 snubbie.

I know that a lot of people have one of the guns above and it has functioned 100% but that seems to be a hit or miss thing when you are talking about tiny autos. I've had about 5-6 tiny autos of various makes and prices and I have never gotten one that was reliable. The Kel-Tec P-32 was great after the 1st time I sent it back to the factory but a few hundred rounds and several months later and it had broken again.

Is there a concenses of how reliable the Kahr PM9 is?

Do you have to go up to Bersa .380 and Glock 26 size to get somthing that works?

[E357]

I really like the Colt .380 as well as it's parent the Star .380. I carry my Kel-Tec p-32 a lot because of the heat in South Florida, But when dress allows, nothings beats a light weight snubbie.

Elliot

[mini14jac]

I just passed the 500rd mark with my PM9, with no malfunctions of any kind.
Shooting several types of fmj and jhp, it is accurate and reliable.

Ditto with the MK9 that I traded for the PM9.
I would also add that my P32 is a reliable gun.
So, they can be found, you just have to make sure that the one you have is reliable for you.

A .38 snub can bind or misfire, but it is hard to beat the reliability of a snub.

[MikeJ]

My experience has shown that small autos tend to be more ammo sensitive than full size pistols. I had a Beretta 950 (.25) that was very reliable and my current "mouse gun" an NAA Guardian .32 is also very reliable. I will agree that when it comes to small guns nothing beats a lightweight snubbie for reliability. I have found that even a snubbie is sometimes too big for pocket carry when that is my only carry option and then I opt for the Guardian, relatively confidant that it will work if needed. Of all the premium bullets out there I have found that the Federal Hydra Shoks tend to be the most troublesome in small guns, even my Sig 230 doesn't like them. Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golden Sabers seem to work best in my guns. Mike

[wingman]

smc380(FEG) fires everytime and accurate.

[Blackhawk]

The "most" reliable machine mankind has devised is the mercury switch thermostat. Reliability goes downhill from there.

The failure modes of pistols due to complexity and design are at least an order of magnitude above those of revolvers, but they fail too, and often.

He who seeks a reliable machine may also foolishly rely on somebody else.

[Mike Irwin]

"Taurus PT-22 was junk."

I've got over 2,000 rounds through my with Winchester Wildcat ammo with ZERO failures to fire, ZERO failures to feed, and ZERO failures to extract.

And that's with spotty cleaning as I get around to it.

Sorry to hear that yours was a problem.

[PCRCCW]

IMO, there are alot of good little guns out there.

Kahrs are great guns....period. You cant go wrong with one...they make a steel one that doesnt require a fluff and buff or whatever it is.

Ive had a Phoenix 22 that had over 5000 rnds through it and didnt burp after break in....it was 90$ and I would trust my life with the gun...not the caliber.

FEG makes a killer little gun for the money...the biggest drawback is the d/a trigger pull.....other than that you have a very good gun.

NAA guardians are very nice....the first run required a little work to get them to run...but that was a long time ago.

Plenty of good choices....Shoot well

[Rob Pincus]

I've had good luck with the Beretta 3032 Tomcat.

[mec]

I got an early one and checked it out with a lot of the ammunition available at the time. ( tomcat) I got four failures to feed in the first four magazines but then it settled in and was completely reliable for several hundred more rounds.

a local guy had one and started reloading for it. put several thousand rounds through it with no problems at all. I've also gotten perfect reliability from the Beretta Jet fire and .25 acp bobcat- though not with their rimfire variations.

the only misfeeds from several Seecamps have come with the Fiocchi JHP with the exposed lead though two of these guns mangle several of the jhp during feeding cycle.

[Smoke]

Colt Gov't .380

Mustang or Pony are options also, but I have no long term experience with them.

My Gov't 380 has perforemd flawlessly.

[GrandmasterB]

I agree with Smoke. My Mustang Pocketlite has been 100% perfect.

http://users3.ev1.net/~byronsimpson/guns/coltmustang.jpg

[Stevie-Ray]

Kel-Tecs are out because they can't be trusted. Taurus PT-22 was junk. Shame, cuz my PT-22 has gone thousands of rounds now with ZERO malfunctions of ANY kind. My P-32 has gone it's first 300 rounds the same way. (Zero MF) I really would like a Colt Mustang, but the price of the used ones is outrageous.

[Erik Jensen]

http://www.armyofjuan.us/photos/KahrLeft.jpg

my %100 reliable Kahr MK40. been carrying it all day, and barely noticed it.

[P95Carry]

PCRCCW.......... Phoenix 22 that had over 5000 rnds through it and didnt burp after break in....it was 90$ and I would trust my life with the gun...not the caliber. Agreed .... my HP22 is a great mouse gun .. tho I would admit . I do feel the need to get the crud cleaned out after a lot of useage.

Main downside ........ for size ... too damn heavy . and yeah .. cal hardly ideal ..... otherwise .. pretty good, considering such low cost.

[Nick96]

If you are talking "tiny semi-auto's", the current choices are .32 and under. "Tiny & light weight" and the choices are reduced further. "Tiny, light weight, safe to handle/carry and reliable" and the choice is pretty much narrowed down to the Beretta 950 Jetfire in .25 cal.

A decades old design & proven durability. Good ammo capacity (8+1 rounds). Tipping barrel makes for safe and easy chambering and un-chambering. Open slide makes for easy clearing of the rare jam. Reliability of .25 centerfire over .22 rimfire (about equally effective from ultra short barrels). Mine has been as reliable as any other auto I've used. Small enough to be completly covered by an average size hand, but large enough where it matters to safely handle it. Weighs under 10 oz. It's still currently being manufactured, so there are ample available factory original parts. And, it can be purchased new for under $250 (many places less than that).

There is no such thing as perfection. But for a "tiny auto", the Beretta 950 Jetfire in .25 cal. is as close as you are going to get.

[WonderNine]

I couldn't imagine being comfortable carrying a .25 AUTO. This is one of the worst cartridges ever made. A .22lr would be better.

[Gerald McDonald]

Wonder, You'll have more feed problems with a 22. I had good luck with both the Beretta Bobcat and Tomcat.
Gerald

[P95Carry]

Nearly added that myself W-9 .... not sure quite what it is but for me .25 SUX!! Bigtime! Partly ''reputation'' I guess but ... never had any buddies either using it who were actually real ''fans'' .. it was just a plinker thing!

I too would take .22lr by choice.

[Tamara]

I have seen the tiny Berettas fail too often to consider them reliable enough for defense.

What kind of tiny Berettas?

I'm not sure I've ever seen a jammed Jetfire. :uhoh:

[WonderNine]

For reliability, power and concealability, still can't beat my COP .357.

[Tamara]

For reliability, power and concealability, still can't beat my COP .357.

A very lucky COP owner, you are. :)

Yup, not only is it heavier and just as tall as a Glock 33, but it holds less than half as many rounds and every one of the four I've fired has been defective in one way or another. (broken firing pin, sloppy lockup, wouldn't shoot to point-of-aim, et cetera)

Out of curiousity, what range are your barrels regulated at?

[Longbow]

Anyway my Keltec P11 has been soo reliable since day one. I have now close to 5K rounds through it and still counting! :)

[WonderNine]

A very lucky COP owner, you are.

Yup, not only is it heavier and just as tall as a Glock 33, but it holds less than half as many rounds and every one of the four I've fired has been defective in one way or another. (broken firing pin, sloppy lockup, wouldn't shoot to point-of-aim, et cetera)

Out of curiousity, what range are your barrels regulated at?

And yet mine exhibits none of those problems. I must have the creampuff example of the century. Perfect lockup, always works perfectly, I have about 300 rounds of .357 through the gun and it's very confidence inspiring. Hits the primer hard and dead center. Extraction is easy. I don't shoot it much anymore though. You're kinda going with the revolver vs. auto argument there so I'll do the same. It's not going to jam and I don't have to worry whether or not it will be picky about the ammo I choose. And I don't have to worry about lint and such working it's way into the rails causing a jam. Just slip it into the pocket and go.

The COP is more than an inch shorter than the Glock 33 and slimmer as well. It is also melted nicely, it will not snag on anything. Comes out fast. It's not a tack driving 30 yard gun, but you can't expect that from a pocket carry DOA .357 magnum.

I can't carry a G33 in my front pocket, but the COP is easy as hell to carry in a pocket holster or IWB/OWB. I carry it at work ALOT. No, it's not light at 28 ounces, but it's built like a mini brick $%#house. I'm sure the G33 would weigh almost exactly the same with magazine in and fully loaded. With the Glock trigger the G33 would be dangerous for pocket carry anyways unless you went unchambered.

[WonderNine]

Anyway my Keltec P11 has been soo reliable since day one. I have now close to 5K rounds through it and still counting!

That's good, I'm glad to hear that. I hear alot of people's guns jamming and I'm thankful that I've never owned a jammamatic. I've had some lemons that wouldn't shoot straight, but never a jammer.

[arinvolvo]

I cant speak for the Seecamps and guardians...but I hear they have a problem with stovepiping etc...

I however have an Autauga...and absolutely NO problems....If I were you, just order one, they are only 199 NiB from CDNN, if you dont like it, sell it for 250. That is what I did....Took a gamble on it....and still have it...and love it.

[WonderNine]

Have you noticed any dented primers on chambered rounds with your Autauga? Two different people on here have said that when they chambered a round and removed it, it would make a small dent on the primer and that kinda spooked them.

[arinvolvo]

Whoah...I hadnt heard that one...So I tested the theory.

I jacketed a whole mag worth of Magtech HPs and RBCDs through the Autauga...I let the slide snap forward real hard, as it would when firing.

And lo and behold!! primer dents!!:what: :banghead:

Now, I cant really say that I am that concerned. I have put hundreds of rounds through the Autauga, and never any slam fires, nor have I ever heard of an Autauga slam firing, or AD when dropped...And the dents dont actually deform the metal much, it is just a small touch on the brass...I guarantee there isnt any change on the inside surface of the metal primer wall, but jeez....how weird. ALso notice how off center the little dents are....I am going to start collecting my brass from this gun from now on....But like I said, this gun hasnt even so much as stovepiped on me...and Im not real worried.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=307256

[arinvolvo]

Magtech ammo dents...are not as bad as the RBCD, maybe heavier primer wall metal...also the little design on the primer obscures the tiny dents.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=307260

[WonderNine]

:(

[arinvolvo]

Dont look so glum....YOU dont own one!:D

But like I said, whatever...if and when I ever have problems with it...Ill call it a wash...only payed 199 for it.

Until then, I will carefully jacket a round into the chamber, and carry it proudly.

[WonderNine]

I might get one....

This is a worrisome problem though.

[arinvolvo]

Might as well...they are super cheap, and for me, perfectly reliable...even WITH my limp wrists and the primer dents.

[WonderNine]

It's like a Kel-tec.....that's made out of steel and actually works! :D

[WonderNine]

I like the bottom magazine release as well, unlike the Keltecs which is prone to releasing the magazine if you bump it.

[arinvolvo]

Well, it is more like a Seecamp, that doesnt jam, and costs way less, and is made just as nice.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=207013

[WonderNine]

Hopefully a stronger firing pin spring wouldn't make it less reliable...

[arinvolvo]

Im saying justa tad stronger, I dont think it would take much to hold it in place a little more securely....and the hammer drops pretty hard, so i am sure that it would overcome the tiny bit of extra force needed.

I think I am going to take mine to my gunsmith, have him crown the barrel, and ask him about fiddling with the firing pin spring...and maybe even ask about porting the barrel! oooh fun.

[firestar]

"What kind of tiny Berettas?

I'm not sure I've ever seen a jammed Jetfire."

Never shot a Jetfire and I don't know anyone that has one. Mostly .22s. My friend has a Beretta 21 that is pretty reliable but it stills jams once in a while. He takes it with every time we shoot and I have fired 200-300 rounds in several trips with about 3-5 jams. Not too bad for a rimfire but not what I would feel good about either.

I don't like .25s at all. It is very underpowered even compared to a .32acp. I think .32acp is about as small as I what to go for a primary carry gun. The .32 is no powerhouse but it is MUCH more powerful than a .25 or a .22lr.

I just wish my Kel-Tec P-32 worked all the time and I could trust it. :( I was happy with it until parts started breaking off it for no reason.:confused:

I love Kahr's products but I have been putting off buying the plastic frame guns until I have heard that they have solved the teething problems. I wish I knew 100 people that have fired at least 1000 rounds through their Kahr P-series guns, that would give me the confidence I need to take the chance on yet another new product that might not work. Most stuff I hear about Kahr seems positive but I have been on this rare streak of getting burned so I am leary.

[denfoote]

my %100 reliable Kahr MK40. been carrying it all day, and barely noticed it.

Funny, I was just going to say the same thing about MY Kahr MK9 :D

[sm]

Must be like relationships it seems, some have better luck than others.

My P-11 has been reliable since day one, I quit counting at 6K rds.
My Beretta 21 , same deal, liked the Win X22lr and Powerpoints.
Friends Taurus PT 22 , same deal, likes CCI ammo.
LEO' friends been using the Jetfire 25 ACP with no problems for years.

I got rid of a Tomcat, because some LEO's did send theirs back, a couple of times. Armour said carry not practice, and since they won't carry what they can't practice with, got rid of them. I never had a problem, sold mine to someone and used money toward a used 1911 I wanted more. I will say my Tomcat was very reliable and accurate. Just really wanted that other gun more.

I've never shot the p-32, very light. I have more experince with the pop-up Beretta's--wish they'd do the Minx again as a fun gun.

[Handy]

In connection with the Autauga and firing pin dents, you will find that all AR15s also dent their primers. Light dents shouldn't ignite the primer.

That being said, I would really question the ability of this firing pin system to prevent drop fires. If dimpling occurs just from chambering, a muzzle down drop would surely cause the firing pin to fire the round. This is a big concern with a gun that must be fished out of a pocket.

I'd take a serious look at a higher strength firing pin spring.

[arinvolvo]

Handy, there is no way that a gun will drop to the ground with more speed thana slide snapping forward after recoil...

Remember that the only mass in this situation that matters is the mass of the firing pin...so go sell that theory somewhere else.:neener:

[Handy]

Wow, that's one ignorant statement!

The slide is buffered as it closes by both the friction of the round chambering and the extractor popping over the case rim. In other words, the slide comes to rest against the case head at a relatively low speed.

On the other hand, we know for a fact that many guns will fire if dropped on the muzzle from 3 or 4 feet. SA doesn't put Titanium firing pins in their Cali. guns for looks - they don't pass the drop test otherwise.


If you want to stick you head in the sand, fine. But muzzle drop firing is a fact with quite a few firearms, and my warning seems entirely appropriate given the reported dimpling, which almost NO pistols exhibit. :fire:

[arinvolvo]

Wouldnt that be caused by an insufficient amount of buffering between the firing pin and the hammer? I made a mistake about the only mass being the firing pin, there is also the hammer to consider....

I dont know...I need to take that autauga apart and mess with it.

Do you think that a heavier firing pin spring would resolve this issue?

[Handy]

It shouldn't have anything to do with hammer mass as the gun is DAO, so the hammer must be resting against something as it follows the slide. Otherwise, machinegun.

As I said in that first post, the main fix is a stronger firing pin spring. That is what is used on other guns, like 1911s, when dimpling is noted.

An inertial firing pin has enough mass to detonate a primer after being accelerated a short distance by the hammer. A drop of 4 feet also imparts a great deal of inertia to the pin.

[arinvolvo]

I dont know handy.,....Imagine it like this, place a bullet on the ground, and drop the firing pin on it.

doesnt that approzimate the force behind the firing pin during a drop?

[JHG]

I know alot of folks aren't real wild about "mouse guns" but, I have a little S&W 2213 (22lr) semi-auto that i have put several 1000 rounds through. The number of fail to fires could be counted on 1 hand. Who knows... maybe I got lucky (that does not happen to me very often). It carries well in the pocket as a Back-up to my primary CCW. Unfortunatley S&W removed it from the line-up during the "lets sue the manufactures hysteria era".

[Handy]

Arinvolvo,

Well, it could conceivably be even more force than that, as the gun and cartridge is also rebounding up, but that's about right.

Picture dropping just the pin on a primer, but doing so by dropping it down smooth tube, so it strikes right on the center of the primer.


There's a guy who posts here who made a rig for test the drop safety of his pistols, out of concern for his Keltec. Moderate drops by the KT and his 1911 both ignited primers. He did say that the 1911 pin spring was of questionable origin, though.

[10-Ring]

I've been totally happy w/ my Beretta 950.

[arinvolvo]

handy, would just using a primed brass sans bullet/powder, and dropping the pistol tip down be a good test?

Of course, I dont think I would be willing to do that....I assume to get a good test, the gun would have to be dropped on something hard, such as concrete....and a piece of wood would not do.

I dont want to wreck the crown or muzzle of my gun.

[yzguy]

It shouldn't have anything to do with hammer mass as the gun is DAO, so the hammer must be resting against something as it follows the slide. Otherwise, machinegun.


actually it can have a lot to do with hammer mass, and the hammer spring if it "preloads" the FP as it rests against it.

And not not necessarily machinegun. If you look at a P-11, it is DAO and the Hammer rests on the FP when the pistol is at rest. So after you fire a round, the hammer does fall back on the FP. What prevents slam fires is the fact that the hammer is fairly light, and not top heavy. Also the strength of the FP spring helps to prevent slam fires (one fellow KTOG member tested firing his P-11 with no FP spring to see if it would slam fire, and it did not).

How I know the hammer affects drop fires, is because I tested it!!

With the hammer resting on the FP spring it fired at a lower height than when I removed the hammer altogether. Also the fact that the P-32 is pretty much drop proof (would not fire from 10 feet) because the hammer block keeps the hammer off of the FP, unlike the P-11.

here are the results of my drop tests:
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/droptestresults.htm

and here is how I did it without ruining my guns:
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/droptest.htm

[TheMariner]

I have a Jennings J22.... works fine on FMJ and JHP...

[makdaddy03]

I think not! I have the PT 22 and Love it.:p

[Handy]

Arin,

The 'guy' I was speaking of is YZGuy. If you look at his links you'll see just how to do what you're talking about without damage. He did a really great job.


Yzguy, thanks for chiming in. I don't know how the P11 works, but a normal DAO pistol works by essentially decocking on every shot, with all the usual hammer intercepts and such to prevent the hammer from even getting close to the FP. I'd have to look at the P11 to see how it actually follows the slide without impacting the FP.

In terms of the hammer affecting the drop test, I think that it is mainly "pre-positioning" the FP closer to the primer, rather than "preloading" by contributing mass to its movement. Again, I have never taken apart a P11 and can only generalize from other hammered pistols.

[Waitone]

PT-22 is not junk!

It is my wife's always pistol. If she is out of the house, it is in her pocket or car.

When we first purchased the gun I had problems all of which disappeared when:

--changed to high volocity ammo exclusively
--cleaned is regularly
--changed lubricant from oil to grease
--lubed the mag

Great pistol for someone who needs a small, break top barrel pocket gun. 'Side that it is just plain fun to blaze away.

[KevlarSix]

I agree with Smoke and GrandmasterB. My Colt Mustang .380 has been perfect for the past 15 years. Only had to replace the plastic trigger once.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/1.jpg

[bpisler]

With high quality 22lr ammo my beretta 21-A
functions 100%.I only run into problems with
the cheaper bulk value packs.Using those i'll
have a few that fail to fire.

[usp9]

Seecamp is legendary for reliability, and is certainly small.
Beretta 950 has a great reputation.
TPH is known for reliability but is .22 or .25, and that bothers some folks.
Colt Pony is a fine gun, but on the big side.
These four have decades of rock solid reputation, any would be a good choice.

Any blow back action can be hampered by limp wristed technique, that is why is is important to find a reliable gun and practice with it to eliminate poor shooting technique. Regular cleaning, quality ammo, and proper lube are all important factors in reliability of course.

[Pilot]

With high quality 22lr ammo my beretta 21-A
functions 100%.I only run into problems with
the cheaper bulk value packs.Using those i'll
have a few that fail to fire.

I've had the same experience with mine. 100% reliable with CCI Minimags. The 21A is a nice little back up.

[COK]

I have had a Colt Mustang for 8 years and around 1100 rds. 100% reliable.

[browningguy]

The smallest Berettas have always enjoyed superior reliability, as well as the Browning (FN) .25.

[Dr.Rob]

Funny this:

My 1908 Colt Vest Pocket pistol had a Schmeisser marked magazine in it (modified) and it worked just fine... no jams. I replaced the mag with a Colt repro.. still no jams.

But when you take it apart and look at the striker-fired mechanism... I don't think I'd want to carry it cocked and locked in a vest pocket.

[grimjaw]

My friend has a Beretta 21 that is pretty reliable but it stills jams once in a while.

Mine does too, if I use the most 'economical' ammo I can find. With higher velocity ammo from CCI or Federal, it works like a top. I preferred the sights on the PT22, but either was just as reliable as the other. Neither is my first choice for self defense, but for a plinker/range/fun gun, PT22's are good choices.

jmm

[MICHAEL T]

I go with the Colt Mustang also . I have a PPK/s I pocket carry most of the time and will be picking up a Beretta 950 jetfire I put on lay a way this week. This is my 2nd Beretta I was a fool and sold the first one years ago.

[1 old 0311]

Guardian, .32 or .380
Taurus,
Beretta,
Colt,
Kel Tec,
Rohrbaugh,
Makarov,
PPk/S,
These are proven winners. It's your life, stick with them. Avoid cheap guns, and shady companies.

Kevin