Safes vs. Residential Security Containers...

And magazines vs. clips, etc., etc...

You know, I wonder about how many people wander into a gun store, looking for a magazine for Unca Fred's portable boomstick, walk up to the counter, tell the guy they need a clip, and then get chewed out by some know-it-all...

Or safes - They've inherited Unca Fred's stuff, and they don't want the neighborhood kids starting WWV... So they walk in, announce that they wanna buy a safe, and someone launches into 'em about residential security containers.

Guys, get a LIFE.

It just doesn't matter. If it holds bullets, and goes in the gun, all that matters is that it actually FITS.

If a box can be moved without forklifts and cranes into a house, and locks in a somewhat secure fashion, that's a good thing.

Let's not alienate people before they're good and hooked on the gun culture...

And as for those things that hold the bullets (I know, I know... "cartridges" - you REALLY need a real hobby...), I tend to call them "magajeenz." Because I had a Korean drill sergeant how would call out, by rote, "rock and road your magajeen," and before a few range sessions had passed, the entire company had incorporated it into a cadence...

This is supposed to be somewhat fun...

Terminology is very important - if I placed an order for 124g Speer Gold Dot bullets and got just that, I'd be a bit put out if I wanted cartridges.

Also important is knowing when to enlighten people - if a guy wants a clip for his Glock, then sell the man a magazine and move on. However, if someone wants "a safe", it may very well be wise in explaining to him that what he thinks of as "safe" can be opened in five minutes by a monkey with a screwdriver and a hammer - the customer may well want something actually worth his cash!

Lastly, shows of ignorance are nothing to be proud of. A wise person will accept correction, and likewise know when correction is not likely to be accepted.

If it holds bullets, and goes in the gun,


:uhoh: :uhoh: Bogie said bullets instead of cartridges...:) :neener:

J/K Bogie, I agree with your thoughts. The gun community needs to be focused on new shooters so they can grow up to be cantankerous old farts like us!

I can see all of the points mentioned above~!

For example, when a customer comes into our shop look'in for bullets,
he/she is most likely to get directed over to the reloading supplies by all of
our sales staff. OTOH, if they say "cartridges', that tells us that they want
loaded ammunition.

"Safe's" OTOH are quite a bit different. I don't want to be the one who
misrepresents the facts about such an item. Just suppose Ole' Joe Blow
comes in look'in for a "SAFE"; and in fact I sell him the largest 60 gun
Browning RSC that I have on the floor. The next day, Ole' Joe (who is
a hermit) decides to go on a fishing trip that will last for three days.
While he is gone, crack addict A, and dopehead B, along with several
wanna bee drug addicts break into Ole' Joe's homestead armed with a
crowbar, drill, an a fire ax.

Ole' Joe is gone, and they know it~! Nobody in the 'hood is paying any
attention too what is going on. So, they break in with the element of
TIME on their side. They commence to beat, pry, and drill the safe open
and make off with Ole' Joe's $50,000 gun collection. A few days later,
Ole' Joe returns home too find his home broken into, and his prized gun
collection containing his world famous '08 Luger missing from his "SAFE".
The next day, Ole' Joe returns to my shop wanting to whip my A$$ cuz
I sold him a POS "SAFE". Then I explain that we only sell residential
security containers (CAN YOU SAY BOX?), and any well armed thief
can defeat the locking mechanism. Well my friend, Ole' Joe hates me
worst than ever- and heads down to his local ACLU attorney to file
a lawsuit against me for misrepresenting the facts about an RSC.

This scenario could be played out anyday my friend, so NO THANKS
to the BIG TIME LAWSUIT- YOU ARE THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO GET
A LIFE~!

Sorry for the rant, but some people need to think before they act.:eek:

What if I ordered a clip for my Kel-Tek .380 and got a Magazine? the Kel-Tek has both a Clip option and a magazine :neener:
(OK, for those wondering what I'm talking about, Kel-Tek offers a belt clip like a pocket knife has for the side of the gun to clip inside your waisetband.)

Fun part is, could Old Joe actually get a SAFE into his house... safely?

I have a friend with two old boxes that I think may be "safes." They came used from a local dealer. Monsterously big and heavy. One's actually on wheels, but we can't move it without plywood.

Greeting's Again bogie My Friend-

Good point~! I actually know where there is a heavy gague all steel safe here
in the Birmingham area, thats on wheels and dates way back to the very
early 1800's. It was made by an outfit that called its-self "Birmingham Safe
Company", that has long since been out of business. When this old coin
dealer friend of mine put it in place, it took 12 able bodied men to move
the rascal. I tried too purchase this safe from him several years ago, but
he wouldn't ever give me a price~!:uhoh: You know what? I'm kind'a glad
he didn't; cuz I would most likely have bought it, then I would not have
been able to round up enough troops to move the damn thing~!:scrutiny:

He still uses it today, to store valuable coins, old estate jewelry, and rare
stones. He's one heck'eva nice fellow, for whom I enjoyed working for a
long time ago.

I don't think the issue is whether or not you should correct a person's terminology or ask for clarification regarding their needs, but HOW it's done. Some folks love to get downright insulting whent hey hear someone misuse a gun term like clip, safe, or bullet. Ask for clarification or discuss the differences if you think they're not aware of said differences.

Chris

I agree with Mtnbkr. There are better customer service approaches to these situations - ways to clarify intent and/or educate about terminology. Making someone feel like an ass because they misused some gun terminology is not a good way to get new shooters interested in the sport. We need more people shooting; not less.

Yes, it's important to use accurate terminology, but if their first exposure to the sport is some sour-puss know-it-all, chances are they won't be back.

I have to chime in on the Safe part of this conversation.

YES, even a good Champion or American Security safe can be gotten into.

NO, the average Burg does not travel with a fire axe an industrial drill and bits and a crowbar.

NO, just any lunkhead or groups of lowlifes with a crowwbar and sledge can not get into a good safe. The tools do not create the knowhow, or ability.

YES, a 16 year old kid with NO tools can get through your locked front or back door but you still lock it.

YES, most if not ALL of the folks who tell you your firearms are not better protected in a safe have their three or four firearms under the bead or in the back of a closet.

A SAFE isnt failsafe, but it is 1000% more protection than nothing at all...OR hiding...

Now if'n some guy who specializes in peeling boxes comes your way and feels he has the time to do his thing you are screwed, but 99.9 percent of the jokers who make it into your house will be UNABLE to get into a GOOD safe. My brother has been a locksmith specializing in comercial AND residential safes and has seen HUNDREDS of safes that someone tried to breach with no success. He has seen three succesfull breaches and two of those were commercial.

Now if ya want to talk about "names" folks use for things that make 'em look a little dumb, lets talk about "tuna FISH" and using the letter "o" for the number zero.

But I do see your point about "magazines and clips" and "bullets and cartridges". There will always be those spelling nazis that are just waiting to sniker or tell you in a loud voice that you have said something wrong..... Of course they will then go and talk about the "poison" in a snake or spider..... heehee

Fun part is, could Old Joe actually get a SAFE into his house... safely?

Weather or not he could get a safe into his house is immaterial. The fact is that if some one asks for a safe, and you sell them a RSC, you hosed them. The truth is that most people honestly don’t know the difference, and as a salesperson, it is your duty to inform them. Some members here are locksmith/ safe guys, and they will tell you that there are quantifiable standards and ratings for safes depending on how long it would take a professional cracker with tools to break into your safe. Therefore, selling someone a RSC when they want a safe is wrong. It is at least your duty to say “we don’t have any safes, but we have these nice shiny RSCs”. Would you like to have a look?

Bogie when were you in the ROK army ??? :neener: :neener: :neener:

My Drill Sergeant pronounced it as "M16 Rye-Fo". :scrutiny:


And I agree with you, Bogie. If Tom Cruise or Pierce Brosnon breaks into my house he'll probably be able to snatch everything from the gun "safe" before the dog gets off the couch. (and he'll be extremely disappointed with the "take". :rolleyes: )

However, what I have keeps my kids and their friends out. It's bolted to both the floor joists and the wall studs in the closet. The average burglar may try taking a hammer or crowbar to it, but I doubt if he'll get it open enough to remove anything. He ain't gonna remove the whole thing unless he brings either a lot of friends or something like a forklift or a Bobcat.

I bought what will protect me from the threat(s) I face:
1) Keeping the guns away from kids.
2) Keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. (your average burglar, not SUPER criminals).

Another dumb English language trick: "Hot Water Heater"-----If it's already hot water, why do you need to heat it ??? :scrutiny: :neener: :scrutiny: :neener:

Fun part is, could Old Joe actually get a SAFE into his house... safely?

Yes. Not all safes are as big as gun safes. We installed a 900 pound "wall safe" into a home last week. I've also put walk in vaults into homes with 6,000 pound doors on them.

There are better customer service approaches to these situations - ways to clarify intent and/or educate about terminology.

This is why customers calling gun safes a safe doesn't bother me. They aren't calling it a safe because they know the difference. They are calling it a safe because that's what all of the gun safe manufacturers claim that their products are.

YES, even a good Champion or American Security safe can be gotten into.

Just to clarify... Of the two companies mentioned, only AMSEC builds safes. Champion is a gun safe manufacturer.

NO, the average Burg does not travel with a fire axe an industrial drill and bits and a crowbar.

Most don't. But many people have these types of items in their garage or workshop. Most of the burglaries I have seen have involved items found on the premises, and not brought in by the burglar.

I have never seen an amateur burglar drill into a safe. Drilling is what locksmiths do. Even then, a common battery operated drill is more than enough to put holes in most gun safes.

NO, just any lunkhead or groups of lowlifes with a crowwbar and sledge can not get into a good safe. The tools do not create the knowhow, or ability.

Anybody physically capable of swinging a sledge hammer can get into 90% of the gun safes on the market in a matter of minutes.

A SAFE isnt failsafe, but it is 1000% more protection than nothing at all...OR hiding...

It is. In my mind, it's insurance against a negligence suit if your firearms were used to kill somebody. A gun safe will not keep a motivated amateur burglar out, but it will show that you took precautions to safely store your firearms.

I bought what will protect me from the threat(s) I face:
1) Keeping the guns away from kids.
2) Keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. (your average burglar, not SUPER criminals).


This is exactly what gun safes are for, and what the companies that sell them should market them for. They are not for the storage of paperwork or data. They are not for photographs. They are not for storing excessive valuables. They are for keeping guns away from kids and criminals.

First off, what is the difference between A safe builder and a manufacturer, I dont know:confused: :confused: ( thanks for the info by the way!). The point I was trying to make there was to NOT INCLUDE the silly "boxes" you see at fleet farm...

A good safe will INDEED keep your average motivated burg out of your stash. 3, 6, 8 minnutes is around the average time a burg will be in your home... (most likely 5 minutes or less) Not many burgs would consider staying in a house long enough to search for tools OR peel a safe, it just isnt going to happen. You will not get into a C50 with a sledgehammer in any REASONABLE amount of time. I would think an American security safe with commercial grade hinges will give them even more trouble. I agree with your statement about drills, I just mentioned them because they were included in the post. The most common attack( my brother has encountered) on a safe is a sledgehammer to the dial or keypad ( it doesnt make sense but we are talking about thieves ... 99 percent of them have lower than average IQ and are addicted to a controlled substance). Niether of these result in anything but wrecking the safe, not opening it.

As a safe installer you must see some WILD setups, Ya got to love a job that is interesting AND physical as well!

A good safe is your best bet to protect your firearms.

Even a mediocre safe beats what you may think is a "great hiding place."

Guys. Lighten up. I'm just wondering about those folks who are thinking of getting into a fun hobby/culture who get completely turned off when they run into Bubba the Terminology Commando...

As far as explaining about safes vs. RSCs vs. whatever...

"Well this little beauty is fine for keeping honest people honest, but if Joe Crackhead wants in, he's gonna get in. It'll just take him a while. Now, this one, with these additional features costs a bunch more, but Joe probably won't get in unless he's got all weekend. Now, what do you really need here? Oh, and this one has this really neat keypad, so that you don't have to spin the dial around and around - you know, that can be a real pain."