Writer wants to get it right

[vikingjs]

A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I am writing a story in which one of the characters knows far more about firearms than I do. I can now confidently say SIG P226 X-FIVE Tactical chambered in .40SW with a 14-round magazine and know what I'm talking about (even if I can't remember right now if the tactical is SAO). I'm learning an awful lot about ammunition, more than I think I need to know, but there's a lot.

So I think I'm doing better than a lot of writers so far. The thing is, this character really, really, knows guns. I think I have avoided embarrassing myself except for one passage, which I would appreciate having a group like this vet. I'm sure there are a host of other questions that you could help me with as well.

Would this be an appropriate place to post questions like that, or is there another place you could recommend? I know that the gun community (like any other technical group) hates it when fiction has stupid, avoidable errors and misconceptions.

I promise that when the movie poster comes out, the babe's finger will be safely off the trigger.

EDITED TO ADD: And now I see that the X-FIVE Tactical only comes in 9mm...

[HGUNHNTR]

I beleive most members of THR would appreciate the opportunity to assist you in your efforts. I think most of us can agree that Hollywood, or movies in general, are a source of a tremendous amount of misinformation about firearms, thus resulting in legislation being passed to deal with fictitious issues related to firearms. Just remember that a cool reception in a firearms forum doesn,t mean we are bad guys, just tired of being thrown under the bus. (Sorry for any typos, I am on a french keyboard)

[Spot77]

Ask away; I think people here will give you 200% more info than you ever thought possible.


And remember, us gun nuts aren't really nuts at all. :)

[tbtrout]

I think any one here would be more than willing to help out. The idea that someone such a yourself wants to accurately portray the use of firearms in a story is a nice change from what is usually sensationalized and innacurately portrayed for the sake of of making the story entertaining. Ask away there will be a lot of answers, I am sure.

[vikingjs]

Thanks!

I must confess that there is one scene in which the bullet ballet will strain credibility, but I'm trying to make sure that it is the human who is exceptional, working within reasonable parameters (no outrunning AK 47's in a hallway, magazines with finite rounds and barrels that overheat, magical suppressors, and so forth).

So here's the bit where technical knowledge sits right on the surface; I'm using this scene to help establish Kate's character -- socially inept, technically extremely competent. She is, above all, precise. She has fired Schmidt's gun in the past, and is now returning it to him.

There are three paragraphs in the following passage that (obviously) are exceeding my technical knowledge. You'll know them when you see them. If you could tear them apart now, that will save me embarrassment later. I put the stuff here fully expecting to be criticized -- that's the point of this exercise -- so don't worry about hurting my feelings.

I have avoided specifying Schmidt's gun; it could be anything a European law enforcement agency might use, whatever provides the best fodder for this conversation.

(Please remember that this is a copyrighted excerpt from a larger work.)

***
KATE
I brought your gun back.

Kate reaches into her bag and pulls out Schmidt’s pistol, careful to hold it in a non-threatening fashion, and sets it on the table between them. She reaches back and produces the magazine and sets it next to the gun.

KATE
I, uh, I tuned it up a bit for you.

Schmidt picks up the gun and looks at it curiously.

KATE
I adjusted the double action so the pull on your first shot is more consistent, and I reduced the overtravel, but not by much. Most of the parts were in pretty good shape, but the cartridges you had didn’t give me very consistent results. Sometimes it’s hard to predict how a cartridge will work with the internal ballistics of a particular gun.

SCHMIDT
Huh.

KATE
I tried out a few different rounds. I got good results with Federal JHP. Kind of surprising, really, but you should try those. The Cor-Bon +P worked pretty well too and it’s a good stopper but if you switch make sure you practice a lot or you’ll shoot high at first. And, uh, for special occasions...

Kate reaches once more into her shopping bag and produces a box of cartridges. Her hand shakes just a bit as she sets them on the table, betraying a shy nervousness.

KATE
I made you these.

Schmidt looks at the box, nonplussed. Kate sees his reaction and speaks faster, her embarrassment growing.

KATE
The first ones I made the propellant burned a little too fast for a 115 grain bullet so I switched to AA-7 and when I used the PMC case I started getting some good groups. It might be a little more energetic than you’re used to, more like a +P, but... uh...

Schmidt is watching her, bemused. She looks down at her hands

KATE
That’s weird, isn’t it?

****

One specific question -- when europeans talk guns, do they still use measures like grains or would grams be used instead?

Is adjusting someone else's trigger a no-no?

Thanks once again for your help. In the mind-bogglingly unlikely chance that this goes somewhere, I really want the gun parts to be accurate in a story that has lots of guns in it.

[HGUNHNTR]

I would have to say I would be more than a bit perturbed if someone adjusted my trigger for me. (and its just not safe) I would maybe say something like, I could tune the trigger to help improve your accuracy if you wold like. Or have her suggest a variety of trigger weights depending upon his desired used of the gun..ie competition shooting, or concealed carry.

[vikingjs]

What other options are there that she could do to improve his gun's performance that would not cause those concerns? It is safe to assume that while she may not be a gunsmith, she is very competent in firearm maintenance, and will never be far from a full set of tools.

[HGUNHNTR]

-You could have her install a Match Grade Barrel, (Several manufacturers are good, BarSto, KKM, Nowlin etc)
-She could install a match grade trigger
-Polish the feed ramp on the barrel for better reliability.
-Install a set of target/combat sights maybe Wilson Combats, or Heine Strait eights.
-Might be cool to add a set of Crimson Trace laser grips.
-No gadget is a substitute for practice however!

I would have to know the type of pistol however to get into specifics.
Hope this helps

[vikingjs]

Yes, we will see on a later 'special occasion' that Schmidt needs to practice a little more. Of course, when you really realize that, it's too late...

[vikingjs]

The pistol can be specified to be anything a european cop might carry; whatever gives good options for tweaking. I think I can take it from there with your above suggestions -- thanks!

Any thoughts on her making cartridges tuned to his gun or any of the other stuff? Presumably changing the barrel would change the pressure curve, which gives me a nice closure with changing propellants. Or am I talking out my ass now? Sometimes it's hard to tell.

[HGUNHNTR]

Fit a Match Grade Bbl to the pistol, and work up a load to play to its sweet spot, sounds logical. Doesn't really have much to do with the barrel changing the chamber pressure as much as it does working up a load the barrel "likes". Good Luck

[The Scandinavian]

One specific question -- when europeans talk guns, do they still use measures like grains or would grams be used instead?

We use both - old school firearms enthusiasts like myself are maybe a bit more inclined towards grains. When I'm reloading, I like to use grains, as this is a unit of measurement that I don't use for anything else, ever. Somehow I feel this is fractionally safer, at least for me. The weakness of the metric system is the possibility of getting the decimal point in the wrong place, or using 1.5 instead of 1.05, etc etc.

The pistol can be specified to be anything a european cop might carryI see only glocks here in Finland. One or two older officers might still carry S&W revolvers though.

Sometimes it’s hard to predict how a cartridge will work with the internal ballistics of a particular gun
I don't think the "internal ballistics" of one Glock 17 will differ significantly (or even.. at all?) from any of the other G17's of similar vintage. I'd be inclined to check this with a ballistician ;)

Changing the barrel will affect things, if you mean for example changing the original polygonally rifled barrel (talking glocks here) for a conventionally rifled aftermarket one, such as one of the match barrels suggested by an earlier poster .

Regards

"T.S."

[HGUNHNTR]

Popular European service pistols, as I have seen here in Switzerland
#1 Sig
#2 HK
#3 Glock
#4 CZ
#5 Beretta

I think I would choose HK or Sig, just for sex appeal.

[The Scandinavian]

Popular European service pistols, as I have seen here in Switzerland...

That's a point - Europe is a big place - it might help to know more about the specific location(s).

[strat81]

Why not try contacting the LE agency in the jurisdiction the story is set in and ask them what Make, Model, and Caliber they use.

Also, when Kate draws the pistol from her bag, why not have it in a holster, case, gun rug, etc etc? I would also switch from the maker of the ammo to the model of the ammo, i.e., replace Federal with Hydra-shok and Cor-Bon with DPX.

You also mention a 115gr bullet... from the anecdotes I've read on THR, most LEOs carry 124gr or 147gr 9mm rounds.

"Adjusted the double action" doesn't sound right to me. "Adjusted the trigger" maybe? If Schmidt is a putz, it's understandable Kate, or an armorer might tweak his gun.

[Seancass]

if you are wondering about people saying "the ammo a bbl likes" remember that no matter how similar two manufactured products are, they are not the same, so the owner must pick a bullet type that generally performs well in that bbl.

as for the story: wow you are one detailed writer! and i appreciate the effort of knowing your subject.

[universal]

If you have specific European country in mind, I think I can help you with the gun make and model. Also, hardly any European cops used JHPs. Many use stuff like the Action 3 or 4 rounds, or plain FMJ.

[The Scandinavian]

Also, hardy any European cops used JHPs

Ahaa? My local European police force uses Speer Gold Dot.

[ACP230]

Instead of "in a non-threatening manner," I'd say, "careful to keep it pointed in a safe direction..." Less clumsy to my ears.

[Geronimo45]

You could have her make an adjustment of the magazine feed lips (to ensure reliable feed of cartridges), bevel the magazine well, grease/re-oil the slide rails. It depends on the weather where the event transpires - if it's a hot place, grease might work best, since I think that grease usually sticks better than oil in normal non-sub-zero temps - that's why cars are so greasy. If it's very cold (Scandinavia, northern Russia), oil might be best - an oil that performs better at sub-zero temperatures. Sunflower oil worked for the Germans in Russia during WWII, but I'm sure we have pricier alternatives nowadays to do the same thing.
How about a dehorning job? Any sharp edges on the gun that could use filing down?
Installation of night sights would be a nice thing for a friend to do, as well.

[AndyC]

Careful - you can overdose on the technical detail and lose some of your audience, the ones who aren't into firearms. Seen too many books which use technical correctness in the hope of diverting attention from the poor writing.

As for the European question, when it comes to handloading ammunition, "grains" is still used as a unit of measurement, despite the EU Nazis.

[tincat2]

i think i would use another term than 'internal ballistics' when referring to the mechanics involved with the gun's operation. i know that 'ballistics' has become a catch-all term when talking about weapons performance, but i believe the word is primarily used to describe the flight of projectiles. the happenings within a gun may be described as its 'ballistics', but i think that is a secondary or tertiary meaning for the word. expand the statement of your character some, and have her be more precise.

[Dr.Rob]

Sounds like a snippet from GunsmithCats.

Plenty of fiction writers (even top dollar techo-thriller guys) get by without knowing squat about firearms or making huge errors in firearms... relaying a character through their props, mannerisms and patterns of speech is a far more solid platform than propping them up with techno-babble, esp. if you are unclear on techno-babble. Because someone will always say... hey there are FIFTEEN rounds in a Sig 226 magazine! Or Hey the speedo on a Mini Cooper S goes to 140! Etc.

But having said that here are some points:

Sig 226 holds 15 rds.

You don't 'improve' anyone's firearm without asking. Like saying 'surprise you now have a hair trigger!' Working with a Smith is a process... you shouldn't take a fresh-worked over gun into the field without a practice session.

You don't smooth a DA trigger for 'consistancy' you lighten it. Adjusting over travel means a faster re-set.

Next, a Sig is a VERY well made gun, the last 226 I fired dropped the brass in the same place (literally) on every shot (indoor range, right into the brass bucket) "Most of the parts were in pretty good shape" isn't a precise assessment.

If Corbon is hitting high, the sights need to be adjusted. Makes no sense to have 'special occasion' ammo, all events are special occasions when you need to shoot somebody (in fiction even) unless the ammo is armor piercing or tracer or some other exotic, the 'smith should regulate the load to hit the same point of impact as the Corbon.

And finally a euro-police agency would most likely hand a cop a standardized firearm and 8 bullets, FMJ which he'd sign for and be expected to return upon retirement. (Kidding)

Good luck with the writing.

[boomer1911a1]

You've got guts, Viking, to bare your work before us like this. Good luck.

Is this a screenplay? Or a rough-out of a piece of literature?

I second and amplify Tincat's comment on "internal ballistics." I'd toss it in favor of "internal dynamics," "internal workings," or "internal mechanics."

And for "Federal JHP," try a more specific product name, like "Federal Hydra-Shok."

I also would remind you of Dr. Rob's warning about techno-babble. You got close to the line, almost crossed it.

Show us more , later.

[universal]

Ahaa? My local European police force uses Speer Gold Dot.

Yes, I understand that but Finland is not all of Europe. Being from Europe and having several friends on police forces in several countries there, I don't seem to remember many countries that have the police carry JHPs. Having spend almost every summer in Finland growing up, I always had the impression that Finland had a bit more liberal gun culture than most other European countries. Correct me if I am wrong.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that neither Germany nor Denmark uses JHPs. I am also under the impression that neither France or Austria uses them, but I have not confirmed that.

Anyway, sorry to high jack the thread.

[vikingjs]

Thank you, thank you, thank you one and all.

In this case, the technobabble is delivered in an embarrassed schoolgirl rush. That it's technobabble is really the point. I just don't want it to be stupid technobabble.

'Internal Ballistics' I picked up off wikipedia, but that sentence is out of character anyway and is already gone.

SIG's Web site says that in .40 their magazine holds 14 rounds, but the gun on the table is an undefined (so far) 9mm. Kate (I imagine) shoots an x-five because she likes the metal to go where she intends it, but it's not in the dialog anywhere.

Thanks to previous feedback, I'm leaving the trigger alone. I see that the last thing you want to experience is a new trigger pull when **** is going down.

The hitting high reference might be important. My assumption was that the higher-pressure cartridge would cause more muzzle flip and therefore a higher strike. I'd like to clarify that, because it comes back later.

Schmidt is pretty much a 'take the gun and the ammo they hand you' kind of guy. He practices as much as is required, but it's not part of his life. Whatever agency he works for (I've managed to avoid anything specific so far) is not bound by borders within Europe. If I need help pining down what agency that might be, I know where to come.

Once more, thanks.

[lamazza]

Sounds like Brad Thor-is that you?

[vikingjs]

Sounds like Brad Thor-is that you?
No, My name is Jerry. It is unlikely (though not impossible) that you have read anything by me in the past.

[The Scandinavian]

The hitting high reference might be important. My assumption was that the higher-pressure cartridge would cause more muzzle flip and therefore a higher strike. I'd like to clarify that, because it comes back later.

Don't forget that the bullet is likely to be travelling at around 1100 feet per second. I'l leave you to work out how long it stays in the barrel. The point is that at handgun ranges the bullet is going to have hit the target already before the user has noticed any recoil.

More muzzle flip does affect the time needed to re-aquire the sight picture and make follow-up shots.

[HGUNHNTR]

Muzzle flip will not affect bullet impact, however ammunition of diffeent varieties tend to group uniquely. In a handgun, bullet velocities and taget distances are as such velocity will have very little if any effect on height of grouping. In rifle shooting this is different, since velocity differences can be greater (in fps), as well as typical target distance.

Yes Cor-Bon loads are typically "hotter" than your off the shelf personal protection loads, the difference in velocity at typical shooting distances will the last factor to determine a hit or miss. If its even a factor at all.

[LanEvo`]

I have avoided specifying Schmidt's gun; it could be anything a European law enforcement agency might use, whatever provides the best fodder for this conversation.If we're talking Eastern Europe, the most common sidearm is still the old CZ-75. If we're talking Western Europe, I've seen plenty of CZ-75's, Sig P226's, Glock G17's, and Beretta 92F's. If this takes place in Germany, you might want to consider the H&K P7M8. It's sort of exotic, yet wouldn't be unusual to see in the hands of a police officer.


KATE
I adjusted the double action so the pull on your first shot is more consistent, and I reduced the overtravel, but not by much. Most of the parts were in pretty good shape, but the cartridges you had didn’t give me very consistent results. Sometimes it’s hard to predict how a cartridge will work with the internal ballistics of a particular gun.When you say "consistent results," I guess the question is: do you mean accuracy or feed reliability? I would word it slightly differently depending on what you're referring to.


KATE
I tried out a few different rounds. I got good results with Federal JHP. Kind of surprising, really, but you should try those. The Cor-Bon +P worked pretty well too and it’s a good stopper but if you switch make sure you practice a lot or you’ll shoot high at first. And, uh, for special occasions...Would Cor-Bon be found in Europe? My guess would be no. I suspect most European police would be using ball ammo from the likes of Sellier & Bellot or other local manufacturers.


Schmidt looks at the box, nonplussed. Kate sees his reaction and speaks faster, her embarrassment growing.

KATE
The first ones I made the propellant burned a little too fast for a 115 grain bullet so I switched to AA-7 and when I used the PMC case I started getting some good groups. It might be a little more energetic than you’re used to, more like a +P, but... uh...

Schmidt is watching her, bemused. She looks down at her hands

KATE
That’s weird, isn’t it?I understand that this is supposed to be "techno babble" and not necessarily understood by the reader. So, I think it works overall. FWIW, most "gun nut" types would refer to gunpowder as "powder" (not "propellant")


Thanks once again for your help. In the mind-bogglingly unlikely chance that this goes somewhere, I really want the gun parts to be accurate in a story that has lots of guns in it.Others have commented on the poor etiquette surrounding adjusting someone's trigger without their knowledge. However, I doubt the casual reader would find this strange. It reads well. I would keep it. To expand on what others have already mentioned, some other ideas might be:

"smoothed up the trigger a bit"
"got rid of some of the creep in the trigger"
"lightened the (trigger) pull a little"
"adjusted the (trigger) reset"
"zeroed the sights for a 6 o'clock hold at 25 meters"
"polished the feedramp"
"performed a basic reliability tune"
"beveled the mag well"

Just some thoughts anyway. Good luck!

[Leanwolf]

VIKINGJS, are you writing a novel, or a screenplay??

What you've posted is formatted more like a screenplay than a novel.

If it is to be a screenplay, I suggest you be a bit less "lenient" with your exposition. Very few editors, producers, directors, and actors bother much with long, intricate exposition, and too much makes them begin to lose interest in your writing.

Plus, directors do NOT like writers telling them how to direct a flick, through the writer's exposition.

If you are writing a screenplay, I'll offer a little tip that is axiomatic in selling a screenplay.

1. If it is a cops 'n robbers plot, or action adventure, you ALWAYS give your very best lines to the "star," or your protagonist. The second best lines go to the chief antagonist (bad guy). All the rest of the expository lines go to the non-stars.

2. Most film/teeeveee actors do not like to memorize lines... especially long sentences of dialogue. Make 'em short and sweet, and very succinct. ;)

Novel or screenplay, best of luck with it.

Just a suggestion... :)

L.W.

[SuperNaut]

I'd suggest that she throw the guy a bone. She would probably realize that she is talking over the guys head after the first paragraph and she would clumsily simplify it.

Like:

"I adjusted the action so the pull on your first shot is more consistent, and I reduced the overtravel, but not by much. Most of the parts were in pretty good shape, but the cartridges you had didn’t give me very consistent results. Sometimes it’s hard to predict how a cartridge will work with the internal ballistics of a particular gun..."

"huh?

"Uh, I made it less sloppy and threw away your bullets."

[vikingjs]

Thanks once more for your help.

I have a question that I think I already know the answer to, but I don't want to throw the idea away if in fact it does make sense after all.

You folks probably know the taxonomy of an engagement better than I do, but it seems like there would be times when different weapons are called for. for instance, to make a suppressor more effective, subsonic rounds make more sense, but when the fur is flying and noise is no longer an issue but penetration is, higher velocity might be better. Perhaps switching from a 1911 with a suppressor (sounds like a staple gun, I've read) to a P226 or one of its many competitors might make sense. But I'm wondering if switching guns in the heat of battle is such a good idea. I imagine that there might be a short period of adjusting to the new firearm.

Alternately, would anyone ever carry magazines for the same weapon, and switch loads as the tactical situation changes? My first thought was that it would be cool to have someone change magazines and have the sound of the gun change, but I imagine that there might be problems with putting subsonic rounds in a gun designed for supersonic. At a guess I would imagine that the slide might not work properly with a less-energetic round.

Still, I think it would be a cool production detail if she had color-coded magazines labeled 'subsonic' and whatnot, that detail freaks could comment on later.

This is really more to satisfy my own curiosity than out of any hope that it will influence the sound applied to suppressed weapons in post-production, unless the producer buys into the whole 'realism' thing. Ultimately all the non-dialog stuff boils down to what I call 'half-burned cigarettes'. (My brother and I listened to a group of film students discussing how far burned down a cigarette should be in a particular shot. I wanted to intervene to remind them that they were ignoring the story on something irrelevant, my brother (a director) wanted to beat them senseless. In his words, "when you get a good take, that's how long the cigarette is.")

But I digress. Change guns? Change loads in the same gun? My guess is that simplicity is good, and that most people would choose a weapon and a round that is good enough for all phases and stick with it. Still, I'd hate to talk myself out of a nice detail.

[TestPilot]

I suggest set the large frame in a realistic manner, then move into more smaller details. Like the specific pistol model, for example, cannot be specified until the country and the agency the Schmidt is working for.

To start, exactly who is Kate? What is her profession and background that makes her capable of tuning a pistol?

There are two way a round can go high influenced by recoil. First is when the shooter fired a shot, and impatiently fired off another round before the gun has returned to aim. Second is when a shooter is not skilled, and does not maintain aim while pulling the trigger, in anticipation of recoil.
First round being higher velocity would not mean the first round being higher. If the higher velocity changes the trajectory, making the path go higher than where the sight indicates, then all shots will be high, unless the shooter adjusts by aiming low.

What is Schmidt's background also plays a role. Is he a detective, or member of some sort of SWAT unit? Some special operation unit does use color coded magazines, but I don't know the exact purpose of the code. However, the color code can be used to distinguish live ammo weapons and practive weapons. It is possible for the color code be used to distinguish different type of ammo, such as FMJ, JHP, or other specialized ammunition such as frangible. However, it is highly unlikely that it will be used to distinguish supersonic and subsonic ammunition. If the weapon is a pistol or a sub-machinegun, it is just easier to unitfy the ammo to subsonic. For a rifle, there would not be a suitable subsonic ammunition, unless the rifle is some sort of specialty weapon. If the operator normally use JHP pistol round, or common rifle round, but carries something like an armor piercing round, just in case, then color coding may be useful. But, that would more than likely mean the characer is in some sort of special operations capacity. U.S. cops are usually told to carry 2 spare magazines, and I can't imagine average Europian cops being told to carry more than that, so they don't really carry that many magazine to a degree that color coding will be needed.

Switching ammunition during battle is rare, because government agents or soldiers are usually issued only one type of ammunition for specific weapons they are given. In rare cases where it is done, it is done because they are forced to, such as when the type of ammunition is ineffective, rather than because of minor preference issue. It does make sense to use subsonic ammunition for suppressed weapons. However, in that case, the ammunition will be unified to subsonic, rather than to carry both super sonic and subsonic ammunition. In 9mm, 147gr subsonic is not proven to be any less effective than 124gr supersonic anyway.

If the shooter has a suppressed 1911, I don't see why the shooter would want to switch a weapon during battle. If the shooter wants to switch to the SIG P226 for capacity, then the shooter should have just got a suppressed P226 with sub sonic ammunition from the start.
Higher velocity does not always mean more penetration. 9mm may have more speed, but has less mass than a 45ACP. So certain caliver may show more penereation in some medium, but less in others. Unless the operator has a very specific barrier to penetrate in mind, usually the minor penetration depth difference between common pistol rounds are not a priority high enough to make an average cop to carry two pistols in defferent calibers.

More plausible list of tunings are already mentioned by HGUNHNTR. But, not all of them would make a noticealble difference for combat purposes. Match barrel may not make much difference, unless the shooter competes in Bull's eye competition; and polished ramp may not make much differnce either if the pistol worked fine before. Different sights and a laser grip addition would be noticeable. However, something that reqiures more skills for tuning, and something a combat shooter may appreciate more, would be trigger smoothening, which is different from lightening. Some triggers don't feel smooth when the shooter pulls it, and smoothening it improves accuracy and feel. And, if done properly, does not have negatice effect on the weapon's use for combat.

What did Kate meant when she said the cartridge did not give consistant results? Was the accuracy not good? Did each cartridge produce significant deviation in velocity? A cartridge does not affect trigger pull, so I don't think she meant the cartridge produced inconsistant trigger pull.

What did Kate meant when she said she had good results with Federal JHP and Corbon? The pistol working well with them, or it being a good "stopper"?
I'm not usre why she was surprised that Federal worked well, but I think "I've even tried some cheap surplus ammo and I'm surprised even that worked well." would be more plausible. If those ammunitions are available to Kate that is.

[Geronimo45]

Switching mags... maybe - if the shooter is switching from subsonic to armor-piercing rounds, after finding that he's up against guys in body armor - probably not more than one mag of that would be carried, though - seems like it would be more of an emergency measure than anything else. Using that kind of ammo would suggest SpecOps and/or VIP protection folks (like the Secret Service - a body designated not to protect Madonna and Jay-Z, but to protect the likes of Don Rumsfeld, George Bush, Tony Blair, and other bigwig government types).

SpecOps folk switching mags - maybe for tracer rounds, to direct the fire of the unit to a certain position? Not a likely tactic for a pistol-shooter.

Also - in a shootout, most inner walls (probably a lot of outer walls, too) and doors will not stop a bullet. The bodies of most cars won't stop a bullet - those things are good to hide you from sight, not to protect you from incoming fire.

[vikingjs]

Test pilot and Geronimo, thanks for the input. I appreciate you both taking the time to wade through the thread and give your feedback. The switching rounds question was more about someone anticipating that the engagement would go through different phases, each with different requirements. Knowing that ahead of time, might a highly professional (and mildly obsessive) soldier carry different weapons and/or loads for the different phases of battle?

This isn't so much VIP protection as it is VIP elimination, but as such there will be a battle plan that starts with stealth and very quickly escalates to a hell of a lot of noise. The attacker has infinite flexibility in preparation, and can carry whatever is anticipated to ensure success.

I have not specified Schmidt's pistol, because I could provide relentless detail but unless it applies to the dialog, the props master can read CZ-75, and after some clarification he will say, "Oh, a gun! Yeah, we've got guns."

I have read in multiple places that people shooting a heavier bullet will tend to hit higher, the reason given being increased muzzle flip. Is this meaningless pedantry, bull****, or something else?

The bit between kate and Schmidt earlier is not related to this combat. Based on your feedback, I will not bother with the potentially sweet but ultimately irrelevant details, and make this a subsonic encounter, although I'll stop short of the tommy gun.

[Geronimo45]

"might a highly professional (and mildly obsessive) soldier carry different weapons and/or loads for the different phases of battle?"

He would almost definitely carry a "BUG" = back-up gun, in case his original gun runs out of ammo, is lost, or is rendered inoperable (an extremely bad jam, would probably come from a very bad set of ammunition). BUGs are usually tiny guns - .38 Smith and Wesson snubbies are very popular, some of the tiny semi-auto pistols like the Khar K-9 - SF soldiers usually carry a pistol in addition to their long guns, IIRC - and a lot of cops carry a BUG.
Different loads - like I said before, he might carry armor-piercing loads for his suppressed weapon (not the back-up gun).

A mission going from stealth to really loud? I'd say to go with a rifle in 5.56 NATO - an M4A1 Carbine or a Sig 552 Commando (or similar short, full-auto capable rifle). Why? Well, recoil is very low. The round is not a powerhouse, but it is a rifle round - fully capable of penetrating most body armor. Even in full-auto, the gun is manageable and not hard to keep on target. Your guy can have the thing strapped on his back as he goes in, a suppressed pistol ready to take out the unsuspecting folks. Once he's discovered, a he can stop the threat in his immediate vicinity, holster the pistol, and switch to the rifle.
Military doctrine usually prefers semi-auto fire, not full-auto. The rifle would have some kind of sight on it - a red dot sight, maybe an EOtech holographic sight (for close-quarters work) or a low-power telescopic sight (for longer distances). Depends completely on his mission - if it's clearing a building, the EOtech or red dot sights would be great. If it's in the great outdoors, the telescopic sight might be a better choice.

Ammunition for the rifle? Well, he could have a good hollow-point load, or standard military ball ammo. If he's in the habit of dealing with guys in body armor, military ball would probably be his only ammo. If not, he might carry nothing but hollow-points - or even 'dutch load' his gun with alternating FMJ ball and hollow points - to cover all his bases.

A little back-up gun in addition to the rifle and suppressed full-sized pistol would be a little odd - unless your guy was in the habit of always carrying that little gun with him, on the job or not - and he sees it as a kind of good-luck charm.

[logical]

Maybe something like this?
***
KATE
I brought your gun back.

Kate reaches into her bag and pulls out Schmidt’s pistol, drawing back the slide to lock it open exposing the empty chamber. It's a routine that is the accepted way to show another the gun is safely unloaded before handing it to them but the move is lost on Schmitt. She reaches back and produces the magazine and lays it next to the gun.

KATE
I, uh, I tuned it up a bit for you.

Schmidt picks up the gun and looks at it curiously.

KATE
I tuned the trigger some so the double action pull on your first shot is more consistent with the single action follow-up shots, and I reduced the overtravel, but not by much. Most of the other internal parts were in pretty good shape, but the rounds you had didn’t give me very consistent results, a gun like this is very capable of tight groups. Sometimes it’s hard to predict how a given load will work with the characteristics of a particular gun. A little trial and error is needed.

SCHMIDT
Huh.

KATE
I tried out a few different rounds. I got good results with a Federal JHP load. Kind of surprising, really, but you should try those. The Cor-Bon +P worked pretty well too and it’s a good stopper but if you switch to it make sure you get to the range and rezero the sights or you’ll shoot high. And, uh, for special occasions...

Kate reaches once more into her shopping bag and produces a box of hand loaded ammunition. Her hand shakes just a bit as she sets them on the table, betraying a shy nervousness.

KATE
I made these for you.

Schmidt looks at the box, nonplussed. Kate sees his reaction and speaks faster, her embarrassment growing.

KATE
The first ones I made the propellant burned a little too fast for a 124 grain bullet so I switched to AA-7 and when I found the best overall length dimension to seat the bullit at I started getting some good groups. It might be a little more energetic than you’re used to, more like a +P, but... uh...

Schmidt is watching her, bemused. She looks down at her hands

KATE
That’s weird, isn’t it?

****

[Dr.Rob]

I have read in multiple places that people shooting a heavier bullet will tend to hit higher, the reason given being increased muzzle flip. Is this meaningless pedantry, bull****, or something else?

Apples and oranges. You adjust your sights to where the gun shoots. If you don't have adjustable sights then you hold a bit lower or higher when you switch loads... which is a good reason not to switch loads. You want that pistol to hit the same point every time you pull the trigger, esp. when making precision shots (like you might with a supressor).

He starts stealthy then it gets scary? One 'true story' I read from a well known firearms expert (take that for what it's worth, pretty sure I read it in a book by John Pilaster) about the dangers of carrying a supressed weapon in a Vietnam firefight. He was laying down fire to cover his retreating buddies with a supressed Swedish K... and the bad guys couldn't hear him shooting and were running so far forward as to almost overtake him. His explanation was the noise of the gun wasn't making the bad guys hesitate. So maybe that would be a good reason to ditch a silencer on a pistol when things go wrong. The noise of being fired serves as an additional psychological deterrent to a potential pursuer.

Then again it also lets the bad guys know where you are.

Taking different ammo... switching magazines between sonic and subsonic... probably not worth it. And very likely something (unless it was a real plot point) that ends up on the cutting room floor. I think if you ask anyone who carries a gun for work (there are plenty here that do) doubt you'd find anyone that carried different kinds of ammo for their pistol.

The attacker has infinite flexibility in preparation, and can carry whatever is anticipated to ensure success

I suggest, if he knows that he's going into harm's way he carry something bigger than a supressed pistol. UNLESS you want to go the James Bond/Man From Uncle route, in which case when the bullets start flying he pulls a wire stock and 30 round magazine out of his coat to turn the pistol into a submachine gun.

[TestPilot]

Test pilot and Geronimo, thanks for the input. I appreciate you both taking the time to wade through the thread and give your feedback. The switching rounds question was more about someone anticipating that the engagement would go through different phases, each with different requirements. Knowing that ahead of time, might a highly professional (and mildly obsessive) soldier carry different weapons and/or loads for the different phases of battle?
If the soldier has the freedom to do so, the soldier might carry different type of weapons that suit the situation. For example, if the operator wants to take out a target from a distance, after a stealth approach, and do the job with very few rounds, a sniper rifle would be used. If the distance is closer, and more shots fired is anticipaced, then a scoped self loading rifle may be more suited. If the distance is even more close, and select fire capacity is needed, plain assault rifle will do. That is because the former, the sniper rifle, is more specialized weapon that can to something an assault rifle cannot. So, in order for an operator to think the additional weight is worth carrying, there needs to be some sort of dispairity that the operator needs to do something a general weapon, such as self loading rifle, assualt rifle, SMG, cannot accomplish in a specific mission.

For example, carrying a 9mm 124gr super sonic and a 147gr sub sonic would not be so plausible, because there is nothing much a 147gr sub sonic cannot do that a 124gr super sonic can, so there is not much of a dispairity.


This isn't so much VIP protection as it is VIP elimination, but as such there will be a battle plan that starts with stealth and very quickly escalates to a hell of a lot of noise. The attacker has infinite flexibility in preparation, and can carry whatever is anticipated to ensure success.
Unless,long range precision shooting is involved, my suggeseting would be as follows:
Carry a rifle and a pistol for "general" combat, and add a suppressed weapon in sub sonic pistol caliber for the initial stealth approach.
The rifle: Most service assault rifle will do, such as M16 or its varient , SG550or its variant, AK47, AK74, FNC, G36, etc. My preference will be SIG SG551.
The suppressed weapon: Since this must have a capacity to serve as a primary weapon during the initial battle, it must be a sub machine gun. There are many kind of SMG, but good choice will be limited to suppressed MP5 or M635. MP5SD might be a consideration, but keep in mind that there will be a velocity loss, compared to standard MP5 with a suppressor, becuse the barrel of the MP5SD is shortened to accomodate the integral suppressor. If compactness is a priority, MP5K PDW with a suppressor might do.
Pistol would be just matter of selecting one of the well known reliable service pistols.


I have read in multiple places that people shooting a heavier bullet will tend to hit higher, the reason given being increased muzzle flip. Is this meaningless pedantry, bull****, or something else?
If you are talkig about larger caliber,this may be true, only if the shooter is lacking in skills. However, in that case, what is causing the round to go higher is not the heavy bullet, but the shooter failing to bring the gun back to proper aim point after the muzzle flip.
If you are talking about heavier projectile in the same caliber, there is no significant difference in recoil in most combat calibers. However, in that case, the muzzle velocity may chance, resulting in a different trajectoy. Bullet flies in an arc path, because of gravity, and different muzzle velocity will change that arc. That may result in the round hitting higher or lower depending on the target distance.