Face-to-Face handgun sale, what are the laws?

How does one sell a handgun to another individual and follow the laws?

How do I know the guy handing me hundred-dollar bills isn't a felon or otherwise not allowed to own a firearm?

What has to be done depends on your state law.

In Texas you hand the seller the money and he hands you the gun.
That's what I do, what the law requires, and ONLY what the law requires.

If the buyer/seller looks too young or I just don't like their looks I don't do business with them.

I will give a stranger NO information about myself and I'm not interested in knowing anything about them.

You must also qualify your buyer or yourself as the same yes/no sections on an ATF 4473.

GreenFurniture

You must also qualify your buyer or yourself as the same yes/no sections on an ATF 4473.

Not true.
An individual seller has no way to substantiate that info about someone if they wanted to.

But it's true that it's the buyer's responsibility to make sure that they are within the law purchasing the gun.

The only way the seller could even come close to making sure the buyer is legal is with a NICS call and that is not required in FTF sales. (but what other states do, I have no idea)

Do as michigan requires: get a pistol purchase permit form the local cops. That way the seller has a name and a permit number to keep for records, and if someone doesnt come with a purchase permit, theres more then reasonable suspticion they wont get it registered/inspected by the police afterwords as michigan requires..

Just my two cents, but a good suggestion.

Not true.
An individual has no way to substantiate that info about someone if they wanted to.

The only way to even come close is with a NICS call and that is not required in FTF sales. (but what other states do, I have no idea)

Well, I'm sorry to break this to you, but in the eyes of the BATFE you are dead wrong. You must qualify all purchasers regardless of your status as an FFL or non FFL.

GreenFurniture Quote:
Originally Posted by M2Carbine
Well, I'm sorry to break this to you, but in the eyes of the BATFE you are dead wrong. You must qualify all purchasers regardless of your status as an FFL or non FFL.
"You must also qualify your buyer or yourself as the same yes/no sections on an ATF 4473."


Link that says, "You must qualify all purchasers regardless of your status as an FFL or non FFL"?


(ATF 4473 questions)
Care to tell me how you get information about a buyer of your gun such as, "has he ever denounced his citizenship or what his type discharge from the Armed Forces" is?

I can just see me standing in the middle of a gun show telling the man that wants to buy my gun,
OK, now prove to me that you aren't "subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner".

In Texas, they hand you the money, you give 'em the gun. That's all.

Common sense handles the rest.

This occurs at gunshows quite frequently as well, between buyers and sellers that are just private collectors, not dealers.

I look young, so sometimes a collector will wanna see my drivers license just verify my age. Thats it, IN TEXAS.

i live in Michigan and i don't think its as easy here as in Texas.

just noticed bezoar's post supose that answers my question.

Obviously the law varies from state to state. For example, I live in South Dakota. If I want to buy a gun from an individual, I give him money and he gives me the gun.

If I lived in Iowa, which is a half-hour from here, I would need a Permit to Acquire (valid for one year), and we would need to go to an FFL to do the tranfer and background check for me, and the FFL would charge me no more than $5 for the service.

As you can see, it really depends on where you live, so check your state laws carefully.

In arizona you need to check ID to be sure he's a resident and of legal age.

How do I know the guy handing me hundred-dollar bills isn't a felon or otherwise not allowed to own a firearm?
You could stipulate that the buyer needs to have a CHL, C&R FFL, etc.

You HAD BETTER check ID to be SURE the purchaser is not from another state. If he/she is, you would be in violation of Federal law no matter what state law says. And keep a record of the ID, full name, address, drivers license number, etc. If the buyer won't let you copy the info, or appears uneasy, don't make the sale.

BATFE has been known to troll gun shows offering to buy handguns; if the seller (FFL or not) bites, the sale is made, then the agent pulls out his badge and ID showing he is from another state and makes the arrest. In states that ban individual deals, state and local police will sometimes pull the same scam, making a deal "off the books" and then arresting the seller.

So if you do direct sales, especially of modern handguns, make sure you know both Federal and state laws and obey them. The buyer may be CCB (carrying a concealed badge).

Jim

I think I'll just stick with out of state sales, and let the FFL's handle the paperwork. :)

what do you do in the case that you are getting a gun as a gift/trade? i might be getting a gun from a guy in South Carolina and i live in New Jersey. he has all the papers for the gun. is there anything i need to do? i've never had a gun before in my name, but fired them since i was about 6yo. any ideas?

btw, i live in NJ, but the gun is going to Maine, at our vacation house....i'm kinda lost on how to go about this.

PS: sorry to but into a topic, but you all seem to know what your talking about here.

edit::: here is what he said to me, hope this helps.

i have all the papers i got with it, the manual,warranty registration papers,extra spring. South carolina doesn't require registering any gun and neither does new jersey. However unlike south carolina, new jersey requires a permit to purchase firearms. A permit is $49 and requires a background check. however there is no regulation on giving a firearm to someone,such as the two you got when you turned 21, so since i am giving it to you for another item and not cash, you really don't need it.

i might be getting a gun from a guy in South Carolina and i live in New Jersey.
Since it's coming from out of state, it will need to go through an FFL in New Jersey, and everything that entails. :(

http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NJSL.pdf

I am in Central Florida and have no idea what the laws are here regarding a private sale.

It seems there is a gun show around here somewhere every few weeks or so and many pieces are exchanged by both the dealers and private parties. I have seen many private sales/deals made with pieces sold with no questions asked. Legal??? I don't know, but law enforcement are present at these shows and never seem to be concerned about the private sales going on there. Next time I visit a show I will inquire from a LEO there and see what I can learn.

Dave

If you don't know the guy, filling out the data required on the standard C&R logbook form (even if it's not a C&R purchase) will:

A: Give you a record of the transaction for your own purposes.
B: Give you some contact information regarding the seller in case the sale is bad (broken gun, etc...).
C: Possibly spook an illegitimate seller.

This is in addition to researching, understanding and following your state's legal requirements.

Care to tell me how you get information about a buyer of your gun such as, "has he ever denounced his citizenship or what his type discharge from the Armed Forces" is?

I can just see me standing in the middle of a gun show telling the man that wants to buy my gun,
OK, now prove to me that you aren't "subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner".

You just don't get it.

Legally you don't need to do that stuff if you are not an FFL.

Here in MN a permit to purchase or a carry permit is needed to buy a pistol from an FFL. It is also required for a private party sale. You are also not required to keep a record of the sale.

That being said if I were to sell a pistol to someone I would want a photocopy of an ID and a permit to purchase to hang on to for my own peace of mind.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

B. UNLICENSED PERSONS

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

In Kentucky.... If someone can not show a state drivers license, they DO NOT get a hangun... simple as that...And I do ask questions. Common sense also comes into play, if the deal doesnt feel right, it doesnt happen. Like someone else said, they do troll gunshows, swap meets. All KY gunshows have flyers when you enter, and if you read the flyer, it will tell you what the situation is at the particular show with out of state buyers, handgun and long gun. I read the flyer, and abide by the policy.

You must also qualify your buyer or yourself as the same yes/no sections on an ATF 4473.

It depends on individual state law. The above statement is completely incorrect in VA. The only restriction on a private gun sale in VA is as follows:

(COV §18.2-308.2:1) "Any person who sells, barters, gives or furnishes, or has in his possession or under his control with the intent of selling, bartering, giving or furnishing, any firearm to any person he knows is prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm pursuant to §§ 18.2-308.1:1, 18.2-308.2 or § 18.2-308.7 shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony."

In other words, I'm prohibited from selling a firearm to someone I KNOW is prohibited from owning the firearm, but I'm NOT required to ask them if they are prohibited from owning it. As long as they're over 18 and I have no knowledge of any felony convictions, I'm good to go in the eyes of the law. It's a cash-and-carry transaction.

Call your State Police department or Attorney General's office. It is different in every state.

Well, I'm sorry to break this to you, but in the eyes of the BATFE you are dead wrong. You must qualify all purchasers regardless of your status as an FFL or non FFL.
Can you site the specific law or BATFE regulation that requires this?

I believe you are incorrect. However, if it can be proved in court later that you KNEW the person you were selling to was a "prohibited person" you're in trouble.

As per bofe954's post, the only federal laws a non FFL must follow when selling a firearm to another non FFL are that they can't know (or have reason to believe) that the buyer is a "prohibited person" or under age, you can't sell to someone who is a resident of another state and you must follow whatever state laws apply to the private sale of firearms.

Quick question: I'm in Texas, and the legal age to own a handgun here is 18 (I'm over 18 but under 21). Because of the federal law prohibiting FFLs from selling a gun to anyone under 21, I can't buy a handgun from a gun shop/vendor/whatever.

Would I get in trouble trying to buy a handgun from a non-FFL? I know it's perfectly legal, but I doubt everyone else does.

Would I get in trouble trying to buy a handgun from a non-FFL? I know it's perfectly legal, but I doubt everyone else does.

No. The federal age limit only applies to FFL sales. Private sales (non-FFL) are governed by state law. If state law says 18, then 18 it is.