What to do with a shot-out barrel?


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Devonai
June 2, 2003, 06:31 PM
So after much tweaking and cleaning I've had to accept the fact that my Garand has a shot-out barrel and is all but useless. I'm saving up the $274 I need to send it to Fulton Armory to have a new barrel installed.

Is there another option, besides buying the barrel separately and attempting a half-assed installation myself? About how much would it cost to have it rebarreled in another caliber (more than $274 I'm guessing).

BTW this was not a CMP Garand.

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Andrew Wyatt
June 2, 2003, 07:04 PM
check pther places besides fulton, for starters. 274 for a new barrel sounds steep.

Handy
June 2, 2003, 07:09 PM
Midway sells .308 Garand barrels for a decent price. Any decent smith should be able to headspace it. I don't see the need to involve Fulton's pricey services if you are generally happy with it.

.308 can still be had a great prices and the barrel is the only necessary mod. It may also be more accurate.

Devonai
June 2, 2003, 07:44 PM
What would I need to check the headspace myself? If the answer includes a reamer, what exactly does a reamer do?

Andrew Wyatt
June 2, 2003, 08:30 PM
they usually come short chambered, which means you need a chamber reamer of the appropriate size to deepen the chamber.


you should probably have a gunsmith install the barrel.

Devonai
June 2, 2003, 08:48 PM
I will certainly employ the services of a professional. So, the reamer removes excess metal allowing for proper headspacing? This is done after the barrel is screwed into the receiver?

dude
June 2, 2003, 09:17 PM
You most likely will also have to do some gas port/recoil spring 'tuning' to get the rifle to shoot NATO x51.......but it's well worth it. The gas port on mine had to be opnened up fro .086 to .01 to shoot the surplus stuff. Have a professional do the work but I don't see a reason to spend the $$$ that Fulton get's away with!

Andrew Wyatt
June 2, 2003, 11:06 PM
I'd stick with .30-06 in the garand. it's what the gun was designed for.

with the garand, the chamber reaming has to be don with the barrel dismounted from the gun.

Handy
June 2, 2003, 11:14 PM
Well, the Navy had more than a couple "redesigned" .308 Garands in service. They work fine.

Or is that an aesthetic assesment?

Andrew Wyatt
June 3, 2003, 02:37 AM
well, you have to add parts, like the mag well block, and you do lose some reliability with .308 ammo.


I can't really think of a reason to go with a .308 garand, unless it uses m-14 magazines.

dude
June 3, 2003, 03:52 AM
" lose some reliability with .308 ammo." (?)

how so?







btw-a mag block is not required for 'reliable' operation or loading and as long as the clips are not modifyed there is no ammo 'creep' problem

Andrew Wyatt
June 3, 2003, 04:16 AM
all of the .308 m-1 garands i've seen had problems with the rounds nozediving and missing the feed ramp.


besides, it's no big thing to deepen the chamber of a .308 barrel to '06 dimensions.

dude
June 3, 2003, 04:23 AM
............'all' of them?

I've never seen it or anything like it in mine.

winwun
June 3, 2003, 07:56 AM
Have you considered loading a .312 bullet in the '06 case ? If the barrel is shot out too bad for the .308 dia bullet, the .312 might just fill the "wear" nicely.

Kevlarman
June 3, 2003, 08:03 AM
You can make an imitation ASP baton like in that other thread. :P

Devonai
June 3, 2003, 01:14 PM
You can make an imitation ASP baton like in that other thread. :P

:D :D :D

Okay, from another perspective. Let's say money is not a factor. What calibers can I convert this barrel into, and who could do the work?

Andrew Wyatt
June 3, 2003, 01:32 PM
mccann industries does caliber conversions to all sorts of wierd and unnatural calibers.

http://www.mccannindustries.com/


I want a garand in 8mm mauser, and another one in 6.5mm jap, hust for the sheer wrongness factor there.

AZ Jeff
June 3, 2003, 03:38 PM
A couple of comments on rebarreling the M1:

1. If you use a genuine GI barrel, it is possible to rebarrel the rifle and NOT have to do any adjustment to headspace. Genuine GI barrels were mfrd to specs such that it's usually possible to rebarrel and be within normal headspace limits. Of course, I would ALWAYS check a rebarreled rifle before I fired anything thru it, even with new or as-new GI parts involved.

2. If you use an AFTERMARKET or commercial barrel, YOU MUST do a final reaming to set the headspace. as the barrel chambers are cut "short" intentionally to allow for this final ream. This is usually done with a "pull through" reamer and is done AFTER the barrel is indexed and torqued. Pull through reamers are something best left to a gunsmith with experience on US Mil. service rifles.

3. An M1 can be converted to .308 VERY sucessfully. Many, many match rifles were made this way in the 1960's thru 1980's. Any gunsmith familiar with the M1 can rebarrel, ream for headspace, and set the gas port diameter to create an M1 that is TOTALLY reliable with .308 Win. ammo.

If it was me, and I was looking to rebarrel a shooter-grade M1 on the cheap, I would rebarrel using a GI barrel, assuming I can find one available at a good price. If that is not possible, I would make the plunge and have a smith rebarrel in .308, and take advantage of cheap surplus .308 ammo.

FWIW, I have M1's in both .30/06 and .308. I think the .308 guns shoot a bit softer, but otherwise, it's all about what you intend to do with the rifle that should drive your decision.

AZ Jeff
June 3, 2003, 03:45 PM
One more comment on converting M1's to non-standard calibers:

The limiting factor on most conversions of M1's is the GAS SYSTEM of that rifle. The M1 gas system is designed for a very narrow range of gas port pressures, and a very specific volume of gas needs to be introduced into the system to make it run correctly.

Thus, you pretty much have to stick to cartridges that are fairly similar to the .30/06 ball ammunition in terms of port pressures and gas volumes.

I have heard of sucessful conversions in the following calibers:
.308 Win.
.270 Win
8mm/06
.35 Whelen(?)
.25/06(?)

Notice that all of these rounds are similar to the .30/06. I don't think one could convert an M1, for example, to .243 Win., because the gas volume would not be enough to drive the system correctly.

Likewise, conversion to some magnum type cartridge would be equally bad, because it would overstress the gas system.

FWIW...........

Handy
June 3, 2003, 04:52 PM
Thanks for clarifying, Jeff.

My main thought with going to .308 is the almost total lack of surplus .30-06 anymore. It seems to me that the added expense of gunsmithing would likely be absorbed in the first 1000 rounds, and pay a bonus after that (as well as any bonus accuracy/recoil issues).

Swampy
June 3, 2003, 07:31 PM
AndrewWyatt wrote:

I'd stick with .30-06 in the garand. it's what the gun was designed for. With the garand, the chamber reaming has to be don with the barrel dismounted from the gun.


The first part of your statement is true.... but not necessarily a determining factor in how a rifle will operate when converted to a different cartridge.

Re chamber reaming..... Not true at all.

Short chambered Garand barrels are installed on the receiver, timed, and then finish reamed with a pull through reamer. This allows the 'smith to carefully set headspace to the bolt just as he would when barreling a bolt rifle.

Andrew also wrote:


well, you have to add parts, like the mag well block, and you do lose some reliability with .308 ammo.

????? All it takes is a barrel change..... PERIOD. ... and who is building all these malfing Garands you have been exposed to???

If I were you I'd check around and look for different 'smiths. I shoot a .308 Garand with 1500 rounds through it without a single malf or FTF. I shoot with other guys who have them as well. I've yet to hear of anyone with a .308 Garand that malfs.

Highpower shooters have been converting Garands to .308 by the THOUSANDS for the last 40 + years with no problems. Believe me, the last people who will tolerate a malfing rifle are Highpower competitors.
BTW, if .308 Garands are so unreliable, why would there be enough demand for FOUR barrel makers to offer .308 barrels as a standard catalog item??? Douglas, Barnett, Wilson, and Kreiger all offer "off the shelf" Garand barrels in .308.

Loss of reliability with a .308 Garand.....???? Ya gotta' be kiddin' me. Sorry, but if you've experienced problems with .308 Garands all I can say is to find a better 'smith... Any GOOD Garand 'smith with his shingle hangin' out can do a .308 conversion in his sleep and feel confident that it will shoot and the customer will be happy with it.

There's lots of them out there...... Anthony Pucci, Tony Giaccobi, Clint McKee, Dean Dilabaugh, Roland Beaver, and Ronnie Morris just to name a few.... there's plenty more.

BTW, the mag well block serves NO mechanical function. It's ONLY purpose is as a saftey device to prevent a clip of 30-06 ammo from being inserted into the mag well.

.308 Garands are the best thing since sliced bread and bottled beer.

Get one.....

Swampy
Garands forever

AZ Jeff
June 3, 2003, 08:11 PM
I agree with you totally, Swampy. I was being just a bit more subtle:D

I almost like the M1 MORE in .308 than in it's original caliber, although my purist side would disagree..........

Swampy
June 4, 2003, 12:47 AM
AZJeff,

I know what you mean....

My .308 Match Grade shoots like a laser.

The great thing about a .308 Garand is that with the extra magazine space you can seat bullets out to the lands for better accuracy.

With a GI '06 barrel, you can't seat bullets out far enough to reach the lands. The bullet is limited by the mag well space, and the barrels have about half a mile of freebore....

Now to get that .308 "plinker" M1 built up so's I can blast away with all that Port milsurp I have stashed back. :)

Swampy

Garands forever

WonderNine
June 4, 2003, 01:09 AM
Have you considered loading a .312 bullet in the '06 case ? If the barrel is shot out too bad for the .308 dia bullet, the .312 might just fill the "wear" nicely.

Or it also might blow up.

Art Eatman
June 4, 2003, 08:41 AM
High odds are that the "wear" is burning in the first inch or so of the throat area of the barrel. Inaccuracy occurs because the bullet wobbles about a bit before heading off down the barrel. :) The actual barrel diameter is still .308 and there could be Great Unhappiness if one tried to push a .312 or suchlike bullet through it.

Art

shermacman
June 4, 2003, 03:16 PM
Ditto that, Art. The shot out part of the barrel is in the first inch. Of course as time goes on the bullet and escaping gas will rapidly eat the rest of the barrel but always at the expense of the "forcing cone" area first. The last several inches of the barrel are probably all nice and neat and in spec. Shoving a .312 into that barrel could really make your decision for you...:what:

BamBam-31
June 4, 2003, 03:44 PM
Gotta agree with Swampy and AZJeff. I re-barrelled my Garand to .308, and I couldn't be happier. Shooting Port surplus, my Garand actually makes me look competent. No malf's whatsoever.

I bought and installed the aluminum block just for peace of mind. I had heard that it also prevents the rounds from creeping forward, but I never had that problem before the block was installed. My shooting buddy's Garand is still '06, so the block was a mainly a precaution.

Go .308. You'll love it. ;)

Handy
June 4, 2003, 05:15 PM
As far as the block is concerned, there really isn't any 'danger' involved. The '06 case is too long to chamber, the bolt won't close sufficiently to drop the hammer. The worst that should happen is that the gun is going to jam.

Swampy
June 4, 2003, 05:46 PM
Handy wrote:

As far as the block is concerned, there really isn't any 'danger' involved. The '06 case is too long to chamber, the bolt won't close sufficiently to drop the hammer. The worst that should happen is that the gun is going to jam.


The problem here is that the hammer does not have to drop to cause a really bad day.....

Imagine what happens when an '06 round is rammed into a chamber that is 1/2 too short by a bolt moving at Warp 9....

First, the cartride slams to a stop...

Second, the bolt slams to a stop....

Thirdly, the inertial firing pin does NOT stop, it keeps moving.....

Fourth.... Can you say, "Out of Battery Fire"????

Not a pretty picture...... :(

While the mag well block serves no mechanical function, it does serve a pretty important safety function. That's why they were designed and their use is recommeded on .308 re-barreled M1's.

I have a .308 Garand, and it DOES have a mag well block.

Garands forever......

Swampy

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