[El Tejon]

O.K., you guys are right on target with the recommendations for kids guns, so I'm going to get your opinions, if you'd be so kind, about birthday recommendations for nephew #1 (turning 9) and #2 (turning 6).

Nephew #1, Noah, to be 9. Born prematurely and small for age, but now in 80% on growth chart. Extremely strong for age.

His armory to date: Cricket, Winchester 67A, Winchester 1902 (his greatgrandfather's), CZ 452 Scout, Savage 101 pistol, Ruger Bearcat, and Ruger Compact 10/22.

Shooting experience: has been shooting since 4. Mostly off bench but is now starting field positions. Has shot other pistols but hand size makes this less than optimal.

My thinking: DPMS AP4 .22 lr.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/22/ap4.aspx

Collapsing stock allows him to grow and later he can put .223 upper on it.

Nephew #2, Josiah, to be 6. Josiah is most certainly a THR member in training. He sleeps with copies of the American Rifleman, carries a G36 blue gun, with shoelace patrol sling, that he appropriated during a visit to Uncle Kirk's and demands that even his grandmothers read his Gun Digest.

His armory to date: Cricket, Marlin 915 YS.

Shooting experience: shooting since age 4. Watching older brother. Has shot pistols under very close supervision of father.

My thoughts: CZ 452 Scout. http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=5

What do you recommend?:)

[thegriz]

My thinking: DPMS AP4 .22 lr.

Great idea. Then they will have a matching set when you get them the DPMS panther in .223 and later in .308 for their other birthdays.

Imagine them, years down the road, with their sons all shooting matching rifles. "I remember, like it was yesterday, getting that rifle from Uncle Tejon when I was just a little shaver..."

Thank God for awesome uncles!

[koja48]

Need another nephew? Seriously, you're doing well; I commend you!

[Wesson Smith]

I think you answered your own questions!

Both of those choices sound perfect.

[JAMES77257]

Why not a DPMS .223? There is no recoil, and the muzzle report and target destruction will give him a new found respect for firearms. My pop got me an 870 in 12ga when I was 8, but I was 5'6, 160 lbs.

[The Rifleman]

Without knowing their level of maturity. And knowing first hand that growning up is a hard thing to do. I hope that when you say these kids have guns - that they are locked in a safe and only allowed out when there are adults around to keep a watchful eye on them.

Saying that a kid has a gun is not the same as saying that there parents have guns reserved for them when they get older.

My first question would be why do these young children have high powered weapons - and there was no mention of a bb - pellet gun.

I think that you are giving the wrong impression to both me and these young children. Kids do not need high power weapons.. All they need is BB guns.. A Gammo would be my answer..

Kids frequenty get bored easily - with their low attention levels.. They like to bust things and hear noise.. Get them a Gamo and let them plink at bottles and cans and stuff like that and leave the high power for when they get older..

[CZ223]

pretty much on track with the scout for theyounger boy. I also think that if the older boy can handle the the AR in any form you might as well get it 223. The other thing that I might suggest is that it wouldn't hurt to add a shotgun to the lineup. I would go with the 870 youth model and buy plenty of the feather lites from Winchester. My Daughter has been shooting a 357 rifle and a 12 guage since she was 9. Rifleman is wrong as long as the boys are well supervised. Teach them to respect all weapons and they will be fine. My daughter shot my Ruger vaqueros in 45 colt when she was 9 too and I bought her a pair in 32 H&R the next week.

[svtruth]

revolver with .22 WMR conversion cylinder and a lever action also in .22.

[Fosbery]

Definitely a revolver in .700 Nitro Express. That'll put hairs on the wee lad's chest.

Or you could go with the .22 AR, it's up to you :D

[El Tejon]

The Rifleman, the guns are the boys, but Dad holds them in trust for now.:D The boys' guns are kept in my brother's safe. They won't be allowed to keep guns in their rooms until the are older. I think I was 12 when I was allowed to keep guns in my room.

Only self-defense guns and a bolt action .22 in the kitchen (for varmits) are out.

The boys have no high powered weapons (yet), only .22s. I'll wait until double digits at least before I buy any of them centerfire/high power. Mabye 11 or 12 before they get their first centerfire rifle. Pre-teen years are the golden age of the .22.:)

No doubt air guns are fun toys and can be useful tools, but both my brother and I want to instill respect for weaponry over playing with toys. It was my father's opinion and my brother's and mine, that giving airguns before real guns hinders teaching respect for weapon--IMHO--not saying it's 100% correct just saying this is how we had it done and how we will teach them.

Fos, that's just not cricket!:D

So, anyone think about maybe buying another action type instead? A slide-action or underlever?

[wooderson]

I think the .22 AR is the right way to go - there may not be punishing recoil (though, quite honestly, my shoulder is a little tender after a day with the Bushie), but the .223 is loud and flashy enough that younger trigger fingers might develop bad habits/flinches.

On top of that, you're talking about a 25:1 shooting ratio for good .22LR vs. average .223 rounds.

I would also probably take a look through the Taurus pump-action rimfires - certainly different, pretty cool looking and should be fun.

[Bazooka Joe71]

What do you recommend?

I recommend you make me your nephew!:what:

Those are perfect choices for your nephews...I could only imagine getting that DPMS when I was 9! I wouldve had to go change my undies after unwrapping that gift!

PS. As your new nephew, my birthday is March 26 and I'll take anything in .308.

Thanks

[The Rifleman]

El Tejon, you must live in a rough neighborhood to have to have self defense guns laying around the house...

I didn't know that Layfayette Indiana was a high crime area of the country...

The only people that have problems with intruders is people that bring it upon themselves...

People know that I have guns and non of them are brave enough to even try to step foot in my yard without my permission..

That is a good idea to keep them away from the high powers.. But machine guns are not for kids and people telling you to buy them AR's and stuff like that are just crazy!

A 20 Gauge shot gun when they get older would be a good choice..

Cut down rifles are a poor choice because they can only use them a few times before they outgrow them and then they just sit in the safe collecting dust the rest of your life...

[DogBonz]

I think the DPMS route is a Great Idea. My second would be a small shot gun of some sort.

[Avenger29]

Sounds like you have great choices for the boys- I only wish I got guns from family members like that!

Rifleman, some of use keep defensive weapons out no matter where we live because crime happens everywhere. The nephews clearly know gun safety, so they aren't going to touch them without permission. You sound quite anti-freedom. An AR is not a machine gun, and if he could give them an automatic rifle, so what? (a FA 10/22 would be like the most awesome gift ever:D ).

Cut down rifles could be sold later or given full size stocks to bring them up to the proper size, too. One can never have enough .22's because of ammo cost...

[wooderson]

One wonders about people who don't 'know you.' In the event of a burglar (or 'home invasion' - which makes it sound like my house is Poland or something), I sincerely doubt it's going to be someone from the block or a friend.

You're a strange one, Rifleman.

[tnieto2004]

That is a good idea to keep them away from the high powers.. But machine guns are not for kids and people telling you to buy them AR's and stuff like that are just crazy!

Machine gun? lol?


El Tejon,
DPMS AP4 .22 lr. Is a good choice.. At the age of 9 (depending on how mature your nephew is) I don’t think a .223 is out of the question... I shot my first deer with a 7.62x39 at the age of seven.. I learned at an early age what respect guns deserve.. As long as these boys understand it.. There should be no problem .. Don’t listen to the Anti's.. I think it would be a SHAME if I didn't trust my nephew's with anymore than a BB gun.. Children are reflections of what they are taught at a young age .. Teach them respect .. They will show respect..

[Fosbery]

If they've already got some 'regular' .22s, I think an AR would be a wonderful present. If you really want to treat him, grab one of those belt-fed .22 uppers :D I dunno if kids still play with toy soldiers, but I'm grown up (alledgedly) and I would love to get down in the dirt of the garden (I suppose it would have to be the range, or out in the sticks these days) and mow down a bunch of the little green blighters. Airfix planes doused in lighter fluid and thrown by press ganged schoolfriends optional. When he's done with it, you can send it my way.

For the younger one, I think a lever action .22 like a Marlin 39A would be nice, thought a bolt action (CZ 452?) would be equally good (if I were him, I'd prefer the cowboy piece though :p).

[El Tejon]

The Rifleman, I keep firearms about my house regardless of where I have lived D.C., Chicago, Indianapolis or even Lafayette. However, my nephews live in the Blue River Valley in southeastern Indiana, not Lafayette, where they can shoot everyday if they wish. My brother accepts the fact that he is responsible for his family and is prepared to defend it.

Being in the business, or a related business, I know that yes, sometimes people bring trouble and intruders upon themselves. However, sometimes the drunken or high mopes pick houses at random as was my case years ago. I see nothing wrong with being ready by having fire extinguishers as I do or having a shotgun and pistol ready as I do.

I am completely confused by your "machine gun" comment. No one here has recommended a machine gun for the boys. I have taken the AR recommendations as Title I weapons. I can buy many firearms and much ammo for one fully transferrable Title II weapon.

"Cut down" firearms are just fine for adults. Most American gunmakers and users have little idea how to use weapons and make and buy far too large to be conducive to effective use, e.g. stocks so large the weapon cannot be manipulated without taking weapon off shoulder, etc.

Shotgun when they are teens is a good idea. I want to wait on shotgun as they build nasty habits if taught first, e.g. trigger slapping, improper handling, etc.

tnie, I understand you completely. However, we are of the crawl-walk-run school of firearms training. I believe, IMHO, that a .22 AR serves a more vaulable training/familiarity purpose than a centerfire at age 9. Now I can be way off base too.:D

Fosbery, the problem with underlevers such as the Marlin is length of pull. Marline 39A is a big weapon. Remember at 6 his arms are not that long. 12" LOP or shorter can work (the CZ Scout's are 12" LOP).

[kungfuhippie]

Well. I just got my first .22, I'm 24. I've been going down in caliber since I began collecting firearms. started with 8mm...

BB guns are toys, often they are not treated as firearms by children. If the Tejonitos are supervised a .22 is a great gun for them and I'd even suggest the .223 for the older boy, or a pistol caliber carbine (9mm or 45).

Rifleman,
an ar15 is a semiautomatic rifle, not a "machine gun", not an "assault rifle".

Children did just fine before gun safes and trigger locks. Don't liberals think that education solves everything? Why now are kids unteachable when it comes to firearms?

[El Tejon]

Update:

CZ Scout is arriving Friday March 23d (finally, man alive, these things are hot sellers!). Thus, I will have #2 taken care of.

Bad news on nephew #1's gift. DPMS has not made the AP4 in about 16 months I am told.:( According to our super secret source at DPMS there were problems with the gun and they did not run.

I am thinking the Bushmaster Carbon15 .22 as a replacement. What do you think?

Here's the Bushmaster weapon, http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/az-c1522lr.asp

[Will Fennell]

El T,
When I was 8-9 years of age, the rifle I looked forward to shooting the most, was Dad's M1 Carbine. Its certainly a "small-big rifle", very useful, no recoil, lotsa history. You could buy an extra surplus tock cheap enough and cut it down if need be.......

[sm]

Will Fennell "done good" with that suggestion.

El Tejon, you should listen to Will - see shotgunners are smarter than you thought. :D

Maybe you can talk THE Pat Rogers into doing a special "Nephew Carbine Class" - that would be totally cool. :cool:

[El Tejon]

M1 Carbine. My brother has that covered. I could buy him one and make it HIS.

I was thinking of sticking to .22 until he gets to 12 or so. He has plenty of .22 as I gave him 5500 rounds at Christmas and will give him more at his birthday, http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=46672&d=1161445835

[sm]

.22

PM hso and madmike, and get the skinny on the pink and purple rifles their daughters have.

Get Nephew a custom .22 rifle really neat and unique.
Granted Uncle Tejon will want one as well...:p

Heck- I want one. I want a neon yellow with tie dye paint that shows under blacklight, then...

Crank up Van Morrison and The Doors and "Rock & Roll" :D

[only1asterisk]

El Tejon,

The AR based .22's are not always the world's most reliable rifles. If you decide to go that direction, consider giving the rifle a good workout prior to its presentation. .22 AR's also have a high incidence of firing out of battery, so proper precautions should be taken.

David

[El Tejon]

1*, yes, I, um, "test fire" all guns I buy my nephews. You have to be sure you have a functioning weapon.:D :evil:

[sm]

David,
We still good to go on Van Morrison and The Doors though - right? :)

I thought the bugs were worked out on these AR and .22's ??

[El Tejon]

sm, they are really fickle. My first one was a Colt conversion kit in high school. It ran until about undergrad and it decided to die one afternoon.

[BigG]

Teej - those sound like great choices! :)

[only1asterisk]

Steve,

To be honest, I've only tried about 3 versions out of the dozen or so that I know of. I've found them all to be somewhere between sensitive and temperamental. I really, really wanted them to work too, so I think I gave them a fairer shake than most. Of the people with whom I’ve corresponded that have both experience with AR based .22’s and my respect, all were open about various problems and for the most part confirmed my assessment. Most still use them, but for what I paid I want better that a failure to feed every third magazine or more and round going off out of battery every couple hundred rounds.

David

[sm]

El T
1*

Thanks for the feedback on these .22's.

I am a strong believer in .22's and feel using one to learn on and then later having one to "match" a center-fire action is wise.

Don't mean these .22s cannot be anything from a kids sized .22 single shot, Marlin 60 , or you name it with a "really cool and funky paint job". :p

I look great shooting a kid sized .22 in Pink, Teal Blue, Seafoam green and others.
I still think I shoot the old Rem 514 best because it has a Bob Seger Live Bullet "sticker" on it. :D

Then again the young man with a NASCAR sticker on his Old Henry thinks his is better...;)

El Tejon - you need to find Badger Stickers.
This would be a great tradition to start with the nephews...
THE Pat Rogers would be impressed I am sure. :D

"Ready on the right, ready on the left, Badgers commence firing! "

Steve

[CZ.22]

el tejon
Whoever commented on the CZ and the Marlin, I have both (actually Henry and CZ, same thing)

While I love my Henry (heck, I picked it out) loading t is a pain in the butt, so good call on the CZ. Great rifle, though I have the fullsize version.
I fired guns first when I was nine- .22 and a four-ten
I really don't think you should get the kid a .223 AR-recoil might be a problem and saying at school 'I shoot an M16' might get him in trouble.
.22's are a great choice, and I would have loved to shoot an AR .22 wen I was nine. Heck, I'm 13 now, would still love to shoot one. If ANYBODY makes a .22 Thompson, get him that.
He's nine now and he can shoot on his land, so you might want to get him a pistol. Since you might be spending $800 for an AR, may a suggest S&W 617?

[svtruth]

American Rifleman has a Rossi Trifecta in its 2007 new guns article.
It is a single shot, break open w 3 barrels: .243 Win, .22lr, and 20ga shotgun.
I'll bet a kid (or a big folk) could have a lot of fun with that rig.
Good luck.

[briansp82593]

dont you get it? get them all glocks :evil:

[El Tejon]

CZ, thanks for the post. Interesting perspective. Did not realize we had members that age!:eek: Good to have your insight.

I gave #1 a CZ 452 Scout for his 8th birthday and it was a tremendous hit. This CZ is a jewel among kids' guns.

However, don't worry, he's not going to get in trouble for saying he shoots guns. For "Show & Tell" both of the oldest boys have brought in photos of their guns as well as targets. The teacher put them on the bulletin board along with the kids' drawings (welcome to Indiana).:scrutiny: :D

[El Tejon]

Picked both guns up this evening.

This CZ 452 Scout has very dark wood. The one I purchased last year is very blonde. Good thing, this way it will be distinguishable from his brother's rifle.

The Bushmaster AR .22 looks OK. I was disappointed that there is no dustcover. I would think this would be a very important aspect of a training weapon. Think how many people you see on the range with their dust covers down! Tsk, tsk, sloppy, sloppy.

Another feature that is missing is the ability to manipulate the bolt with the support hand (I use the middle finger). I would think this would be important as not to become a user of the inane "forward assist" of the A1 and on.

Well, shooters and end users can't be designers or the Universe will explode or something. Have to make up for it some other way.:)

[El Tejon]

O.K., have the CZ Scout squared away. Took the rifle into the gunsmith at lunch today to adjust the trigger, smooth the action a bit, and install sling posts. 5 hours later it was ready! Now I'm ready for his birthday party at Grandmother's in Indianapolis next weekend. What a big day, I hope there's homemade ice cream!:D

Cost me all of $52. Clarence the gunsmith on duty that day said that he had other projects but when the shop owner told him it was for a 6 year old, he put it at the head of the line. He figured the other guys would not mind.:D

Now Josiah will have a nice weapon in appearance and function.:)

Thanks to Bill and Clarence at the Tippecanoe Sport Shop on State Road 25.

http://www.tippysportshop.com/ (That's Clarence the taller guy with the black shirt and his back to the camera).

[Bearhands]

"He sleeps with copies of the American Rifleman, carries a G36 blue gun, with shoelace patrol sling, that he appropriated during a visit to Uncle Kirk's and demands that even his grandmothers read his Gun Digest."

At 6 yrs old...... this "kid" needs other interests. Somehow his childhood seems to have taken a backseat to someones vicarious life. I'd slow them both down and just let them have fun growin up as CHILDREN not adults. Just my 2 cents.

[El Tejon]

Bear, oh, sure, he's a normal healthy 6 year old. He likes school, puzzles, playing checkers with his dad, T-ball, playing with his friends and brothers, going to the Children's Museum in Indy with grandma, Thomas the Train and collecting some sort of cards from some kind of game that I am unfamiliar with. Uncle Kirk just talks about the gun stuff on a gun board. However, he does love guns, as do his brothers.:)

We do not insist that he shoots, he wants to. I understand what you are saying about "burning out" but I think my brother keeps a good balance for the kids. I'm just the uncle, I stand in the wings and write checks.:D

Gave him the 452 for his birthday on Saturday the 7th. The CZ was a big hit. Its dark wood makes it distinct from his brother's 452 and therefore "his". I could not find any spare magazines here in Lafayette so I will have to mail him more mags.

Now I have to wait for June.:cool: