[prezzz]

I was showing my 1911-A1 to a guy at work today who is supposed to be a gun enthusiast. He brought the slide back, checked out the chamber etc... and released the slide with his thumb and just let the slide slam forward.

Isn't this a bad thing to do? Seems like a pretty violent thing to do on the 1911 without loading a round. Also seems like a few times of doing this something will break or be damaged.

Am I being to cautious here?

[Handy]

You could do a search, as this has been hotly debated in the past.

Everyone does agree that it is rough on a tuned 1911 trigger.

Personally, I don't do it to any handgun because it is unnecessary battering of components that don't see that kind of abuse, even during firing. Others want to believe a tough handgun is proof against any kind of abuse, so they are free to do it to their guns.

It's a hard one to lecture someone about, unless it is YOUR gun, in which case it should be treated as the owner prefers. This goes for guns owned by gun shops as well.

[Wildalaska]

Hi agree with the above and add that it demonstrates, imho, ignorance in gun handling...sort of like flipping the cylinder closed in a revolver or sighting down a gun sideways like a gb'er

WildtreatemrightAlaska

[El Tejon]

prez, have been "slamming" my Les Baer slides for years in dry practice. No ill effects.

BTW, would never do that in handling another's weapon. Bad manners.

[prezzz]

It probably is a long shot that it would hurt anything, but it's just not nice to do to someone else's weapon as you all have stated.

I think it just pissed me off more than anything, but I just need some reassurance that he didn't screw up my gun.

Come to think of it. I bet the actual firing of the weapon is probably more violet than what he did.

Thanks for the reassurance everyone. I want to take care of my baby.

[444]

I did it for years until I started reading on-line gun forums. It never hurt anything over the years, but I quit doing it. Why take the chance that it might hurt something ?
Same with swinging the cylinder closed on a revolver. I have done that hundreds of time, possibly thousands. Didn't hurt a thing. But, why do it ? There is no point to it.

[gudel]

if my gun would break just because i release the slide with empty mag, i certainly would not want that gun! :banghead:

[Doc]

El Tejon is correct.
Dropping the slide CANNOT hurt a 1911.

Semi-automatic firearms operate on the basis of a violence of action.
That's why limp wristing causes MALFUNCTIONS,
babying your gun may make YOU feel better,
but your gun doesn't know the difference.

(If your gun is so finely tuned,
that dropping the slide (?repeatedly) can harm the weapon
how can it function reliably and cycle during firing??
And not break with repeated ABUSE?!?!?!)

[Shake]

I agree with Handy. I see no reason to increase the wear and tear on the firearm by allowing it to slam forward each time I clear the weapon or otherwise.

May not hurt the gun, but it will contribute to wear on the firearm. No need to do it any more than necessary. . .

Shake

[Tamara]

I'm with El T on this 'un.

While it's unlikely to hurt any pistol this side of a bullseye 1911, it's bad manners to do to any gun that doesn't belong to you; a weapons-handling faux pas, as it were...



PS to Wildalaska,
sort of like flipping the cylinder closed in a revolver

I think springing the crane on a wheelgun is much more likely than damaging the fine glass-rod sear engagement on, say, a Glock. ;)

[Double Naught Spy]

Letting the slide return to battery with an empty gun really isn't all that violent. Think about all the forward and reverse slamming that occurs when shooting the gun. A significant difference is that you don't hear the slam sound over the report of the cartridge, but when not firing, the sound of the slamming slide will give the impression of being more violent than it actually is because you can actually hear it.

[makarov]

I was told that the stripping of the round from the mag slowed the action down a bit. Letting the slide drop on a dry chamber is *supposed* to be a little bad, but one time is not going to hurt anything. Not enough to make a big deal out of. Don't sweat the petty stuff...

Enjoy your 1911!

- Makarov

[Handy]

DNT,

Compare the sound of the slide closing while loading a round vs. empty.

I'm sure alot of you worry about slide battering when shooting hot loads. You may install a buffer or a heavier spring.

Now, consider that the recoil spring is giving back most of what it was given. Isn't it fair to assume that the camming action of the bullet squeaking up the feed ramp and breech face is providing a similar kind of buffering?

If you don't believe that the slide going forward at full speed could have any effect, you should also reject the idea of frame battering in general. After all, if the frame gets battered, you don't want that gun.;)


(Tamara, I realize I used the word "assume" again. Consider me chastized.)

[Andrew Wyatt]

I've done it a time or two with my own pistols, but only with my finger on the trigger, to prevent sear bump.

(when the slide is cycling or i release the slide with a loaded magazine my finger's on the trigger anyway)

[1911Tuner]

Don't do it.

When the pistol is feeding, the drag imparted on the
slide by having to strip the round from the magazine,
push it up a hill (feed ramp) force it into a tight spot,(under the extractor) and finally seat it in the chamber all act to bring the
slide to a near-stop before the lower barrel lug is impacted
by the slide stop cross-pin. Average slide speed as it feeds
is less than 3 feet per second, and the impact on the lug is
about 2 foot-pounds.

When the round isn't there to reduce the speed, all that impact is
absorbed by a relatively soft part...the lower lug. As the lug
is impacted over and over, it will begin to change shape. The
link begins to overcenter, and causes a delay in barrel linkdown
timing. The result is that the locking lugs start to get rolled due
to the shearing action of the slide's lug recesses as they hit the
lugs that are supposed to be out of the way, but aren't.
and the fit between them and the recesses in the slide loosens.
This causes the damage to the lugs to hasten...and it self-
perpetuates to destruction. The locking lugs can be sheared off, or the slide can crack adjacent to the recesses.

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber from slidelock is about
the most destructive thing that you can do to a 1911 or any
semi-auto pistol. The forces that occur on a failure to lock
on empty aren't the same as hitting the release. Not good for it,
but still not anything approaching doing it from lock.

Hope this clears the question up,
Tuner

[BigG]

...it's unlikely to hurt any pistol this side of a bullseye 1911, it's bad manners to do to any gun that doesn't belong to you; a weapons-handling faux pas, as it were...

Agree with Tamara. A good drop forged pistol will easily take any number of slide drops in stride. Cast recycled filipino/brazilian/canadian/??/ beer cans, hmm. Maybe not. 1911 is too generic these days to tell for sure. When there was only Colt or GI pistols it was a clearer picture.

[riverdog]

Gotta go with 1911Tuner on this one. The cartridge's effect on slide speed during chambering is significant. The weight of the bullet isn't important but the frictional forces are a big deal. This is why small things such as bad feed ramps are able to stop a round from feeding correctly, regardless of a higher power spring.

[Mike Irwin]

I don't pop the clutch on my car, I don't "wrist whip" the cylinders on my revolvers, and I don't let the slides on my semi-autos fly home.

Yes, it's fun. It can be neat. But it's abusing a finely tuned instrument.

[1911Tuner]

This question is one that comes up often, with battle-lines
drawn on both sides of the issue. I would be pleased to
post a detailed study of the mechanics involved, so that
both sides can have a better look and draw their own
conclusions.

All I ask is that everyone keep an open mind and a logical
approach...and study the relationship between the lower
lug and crosspin with the pin through the link, with the link in
the vertical position...the In-Battery position. Those little
feet at the end of the lug are all that there is to take the impact
of the return to battery. Full understanding of what is involved
may be an eye-opener.

I'll stand by with the details...
Tuner

[Skunkabilly]

I thought it was bad and could mess up the sear?

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Skunkabilly,

It can affect the sear, too, but for different reasons. Most often,
it will be a tuned trigger job that is affected by the practice.
Inertia, and the resulting hammer bounce is what does the damage, but on an ordnance-spec pistol with plenty of
hammer hook/sear engagement, it's not nearly as much of an
issue as the linkdown timing.

Good point. Thanks for bringing it up.

Tuner

[Mute]

Theoretically, that slamming action can cause the sear to bounce and on a finely tuned 1911, those surfaces are pretty thin. Contiunal bouncing of that sear could possibly damage it.

Like most have said. Don't do it. I can't think of any good reason why anyone would do that.

[themic]

have to admit, i abuse my 1911 when showing others how to operate a firearm. for teaching purposes, you don't want to baby the firearm too much, esp when teaching a girl, cause you need to show deliberate foreceful movements, and have her try it too.

that being said, i've been meaning to pick up some dummy rounds.

[Skunkabilly]

So in theory a finely tuned 1911 is more fragile than an off the counter Colt 1991/SA Milspec/whatever?

My KZ45 went full auto.

[1911Tuner]

I don't know if fragile is the right term...More sensitive to
mishandling would fit better.

Tuner

[BigG]

...a finely tuned 1911,
Does that mean a pistol, made weak and failure-prone through overly zealous application of abrasives and or tools? :D

[Delmar]

I personally agree with all of the above posts in not allowing a slide to slam into an empty chamber, although curiosity made me pull out the manual on my new gold cup.
"unloading" instructions, step 5., "Keep pistol pointing in a safe direction, allow slide to return foreward on empty chamber . (If the slide is held to the rear by the slide stop, pull slide back slightly, then release it.)

[Handy]

And most new car manuals recommend oil changes every 7000 miles.

I don't think it's a big deal to drop the slide occasionally. It is a poor practice.

[1911Tuner]

...and remember that Colt's repair station is a part of their
revenue. The pistol will withstand a certain amount of abuse, but sooner or later, things will go wrong. They also go on the
assumption that the average buyer will actually do this after
shooting and cleaning maybe...twice a year.

I'm going to go ahead and post the mechanical operation of the barrel linkdown to better illustrate the admonition not to do this
to your pistol.

Stay tuned..(pun intended)
Tuner

[1911Tuner]

When the pistol is in battery, the link is vertical, and the slide stop crosspin is resting against the radius in the lower lug feet. The link is actually a little past dead vertical...about one-half degree in an ordnance-spec pistol. This, to achieve positive lock-up of the lugs into the slide.

When the pistol is fired, the barrel and slide move together for a short distance... .090 to .110 inch, and linkdown begins. Full linkdown occurs when the slide is about one quarter-inch out of battery. At this point, the locking lugs are fully disengaged from their recesses in the slide, and the slide is free to complete
its cycle.

If the lower lug feet are improperly cut, or have been peened rearward, the link and pin overcenter to a point outside of tolerance, so that when the barrel and slide begin to move, the link must swing through a longer arc to begin linkdown, while the slide keeps moving in a straight line. At the quarter-inch mark, the barrel hasn't yet reached the point of full linkdown.

If the linkdown is delayed to the point that the lucking lugs aren't fully disengaged, a crash occurs between the front of the lugs and the backside of the recesses. The amount of damage depends on the amount of lug is in the way of the slide.
it can range from barely contacting, to impacting half the depth of the lug. If just a little impact occurs, the top front of the lug will be radiused lightly...also known as "rolled'. If very much of the lug is involved, the lug can actually be sheared off...the recesses in the slide damaged...or the slide can crack in
extreme cases.

By letting the slide go at full speed with a round not present to slow it down, the lower lug feet will be damaged to some degree. That is inevitable. Although there is a certain amount of "overengineering" in that area to allow for a few mishaps,
the lower lug feet won't sustain it for very long before they start to allow the link to overcenter past the point of delayed linkdown timing. The first sign that something is wrong usually shows up as short-cycling. By the time the slide begins to move forward on the frame...so that they are no longer flush at the back
when the pistol is in battery, the damage is usually done.

Hope this is clearly written. If anyone needs further clarification, don't hesitate to ask. This is how it was explained to me after
a Navy armorer nearly took my head off when I did it to a
pistol that he had just gotten through with. After he calmed down, he took me under his wing, and explained a few things.
That's been a looong time ago.

Cheers!
Tuner

[Navy joe]

Much of this has to do with the perspective of intended use. On an ordinary stock 1911 no big deal maybe. I'm around a fair number of 1911 pattern IPSC guns and you absolutely do not drop the slide on these. Most people that own them also ride the trigger to move the sear out of the way when hand cycling also. (Saw one person do this while unloading to show clear, the weapon unloaded, just not the way he had planned. Early day) These trigger jobs are often at 1.5# and under and the harm done by dropping the slide when empty is very real.

I don't do it to your guns, please don't do it to mine.

[WJR]

Can damage occur from releasing the slide stop while chambering a snap cap? I like to use snap caps for dry firing my 1911's. I on occasion have released the slide stop to let the snap cap chamber. Most of the time I use the sling shot method.

I use Azooms and I have noticed that if I try to let the slide down slowly, the snap cap will not chamber properly.

Thank you in advance for any insight.

WJR

[Handy]

1911tuner,

I don't doubt that damage could occur, but I don't get the specifics of your explanation, to wit:

If the lower lugs are peened, the link will overtravel, as you said. This will affect the length of time and slide travel necessary to unlock the barrel, but it does not effect WHERE the barrel will unlock. This is because the peened lug will allow the slide and barrel to seat further forward, moving full battery forward on the frame in proportion to the peening.

So this creates a situation where the slide and barrel are locked together longer (due to the more forward starting point), but unlock in the normal spot. In other words, after the initial extra, the locking cycle is completely normal. How would this damage the lug/recess?

Could you explain?


WJR,
The snap cap does the same thing as a bullet - it provides buffering interferance between slide and barrel.

[bountyhunter]

NEVER NEVER NEVER drop the slide empty on a 1911. It's in his book on the combat 1911 I was reading last week (don't have it with me). It beats up the slide stop, lower barrel lugs, and trigger group.

[bountyhunter]

"Can damage occur from releasing the slide stop while chambering a snap cap? I like to use snap caps for dry firing my 1911's. I on occasion have released the slide stop to let the snap cap chamber. Most of the time I use the sling shot method."

That should be OK since the slide will be slowed in a similar way as it is during normal cycling. The point is, in normal firing, the slide doesn't slam into the frame as hard as an "empty drop" because considerable slide velocity is lost doing the work of stripping the round off the mag and forcing it under the extractor rim, then pushing it into the barrel throat.

[SCarruth]

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is bad, very, very bad.

For all of you non believers, I think you could equate it to slamming the door on your car. Do you need to do it? What does it accomplish? Absolutely nothing. You may or may not see damage.

Maybe we should petition to establish the Department of Firearms Protection. Abusing your guns would be illegal and they would be placed in a foster home until the offender/abuser has been rehabilitated. It wold be run by firearm social workers, hmmm, the possibilities...

[Feanaro]

And I would have to hurt you if you attempted to found it. The weapon is not yours and it is not alive, it is the owners. They can abuse it as they please. :p

[1911Tuner]

Since my modem took a sabatical, I'm gonna try to hit all on
one reply...

A snap cap slows the slide and will allow a slam without damage.
The more snap caps in the magazine, the more gentle the return
to battery.

Handy...Field-strip a 1911, lay the barrel in the saddle, and
insert the slide stop pin through the frame and link. Push the
barrel up and forward until it stops. The stop's pin bears on
the lower lug to bring it to a stop...specifically, against the
small feet at the bottom of the lug. Those feet are the only
part of the lug that absorb the impact. If no round is present
to reduce slide speed and momentum, the feet absorb all
the impact of the 14-ounce slide and the 16-pound recoil spring.

Now...take the barrel out and look closely at those feet, and you can see that they won't take much pounding before they
start to deform. When they do, the slide and barrel shift
forward of where they should be due to the link overcentering
in the lower lug. This requires the link to swing farther before the
barrel begins to link down and out of the way of the slide. if
the barrel is too high relative to the slide's position, a crash
will occur.

Hope this clears it up...
Tuner

[Handy]

This requires the link to swing farther before the barrel begins to link down and out of the way of the slide. if the barrel is too high relative to the slide's position, a crash will occur.

That's the part I'm asking about. What is crashing into what, and why?

The barrel and slide are resting too far forward, due to the over travel. The over travel could also be starting to link the barrel down a little, so the barrel must go up, then come down as the slide moves back. Is that where the "crash" occurs? After that, the cycle is normal.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Handy,

The crash occurs between the upper lugs and the recesses in the
top of the slide, because during a late link-down, the barrel is
higher than it should be in relation to where the slide is during
recoil. The slide will move at a constant, regardless of where the barrel is...The barrel should be fully down into the saddle at
1/4 inch of rearward slide travel.

In a partially out of time event, generally only the front lug is
damaged, or at least it sustains the most noticeable damage,
though there is usually some damage to both, depending on
how badly the barrel is out of time.

This will also be seen when the saddle isn't deep enough,
when the impact surface in the frame is too far forward, or the
lower lug is mislocated...too far rearward.

When the slide is .250 inch out of battery, there should be
a minimum of .012 clearance between the top of the barrel and
the inside of the slide. I like to set this at .018-.020 inch
to allow for dirt between the saddle and the bottom of the
barrel.

Hope this nails it for ya,
Tuner

[BigG]

My advice to self: Don't slam ACP slide unless you want your feet to take a walk." :D

[Handy]

1911 Tuner,

I understand exactly what you're saying, but I don't think it makes any sense. Here's why:

The peening allows full battery to move forward say, an extra .05". So when the gun fires, the slide/barrel start off too far forward by .05". As the slide recoils, it passes the correct, in-battery position (the 0 position) and continues aft, looking for link-down. The peening hasn't affected the length of the link itself, which is what times link-down and unlocking. At this point, the barrel/frame/slide relationship is back on correct timing. At a point .25" after the 0 position, and .30" after full battery, the barrel unlocks, as it normally would.

In this example you can see that the barrel unlocked late, in reference only to TOTAL DISTANCE traveled, but it unlocked on time and in the normal position in reference to the frame. I can't see how this would be construed as "out of time" if it is unlocking in the same location as a correctly working gun would.

In total, the gun unlocks normally after a longer lock time due to the more forward in-battery position, it does not unlock late. (This effect is what Sig took advantage of to increase the lock time and accuracy of its pistols made after the 225.)

What you're describing would occur with an overly long link, or a worn link hole or slide stop pin, and would result in both the damage you describe and the barrel coming to rest too close to the frame feed ramp.

Thanks.

[BigG]

Handy, what you are saying is true except that the actions do not take place in a vacuum. The 1911 bbl is anchored at the front by a bushing that also limits its up and down movement. It may not be clearanced to let the nose of the bbl go down instead of up. This would spring the bbl if the link cammed over top dead center. Just one point I can think of. The lower lug of the bbl I always pictured as a rollie coaster hill that climbed over the slide stop pin in reponse to the link. The actual stop is the tiny feet at the very bottom of the lug. I've actually seen a couple barrels with the lower lug sheared off and wondered "how in hell did he do that?" Now I know it was the crashing against the slide stop that had to be the culprit. The clearance at the breechface would also crash if the feet moved in response to crashing into the slide stop pin. Also, the locking lugs do not bury themselves totally into the lug recesses at full lockup. A std model correctly fit goes up only about halfway into the recesses while a high speed model like a les baer goes up farther due to longer link and fitting. If the lugs close up further the recesses may not be clearanced to receive the lil buggers. In short, a 45 ACP is a collection of pretty well coordinated parts and there is a heck of a lot that can go wrong mechanically speaking. It is a tribute to the designer that he figgered how to make it almost I said almost idiot proof. :D

[Handy]

G,

I know what you're saying, but was asking about the type of damage 1911tuner detailed and its reason. I totally agree that slide dropping and peened or sheared lower lugs are bad (and have from my first post), I'm just trying to understand this SPECIFIC situation (or allow an alternate explanation develop).


By the way, in your first example, the barrel would never angle down. It would angle up, as it does when linked down on the back side. It would spring the barrel, but not as you stated.

[1911Tuner]

Handy, Think bout it for a minute. The link swings in an arc.
The overcenter on a correctly timed pistol is less than one degree.
If the feet are move rearward due to peening, the link would rest
at say...one full degree. This means that the link would have to
swing some 25% farther to get the barrel to full linkdown,
while the slide is on time. The barrel lugs are too high in the
slide for the position of the slide. Crash/Shear/bad juju.

Big G...Almost there. The lower lug is sheared because the link
broke due to the impact surface in the slide being too far
to the REAR...or the opposite of what will shear the top
lugs. The link stops the barrel linkdown,which it was never intended to do...eventually causing it to fail.
When it dies, the barrel is still locked into the slide, and the lower
lug is rammed into the impact surface. This often results in
destruction of upper AND lower lugs, and sometimes includes
slide damage as well.

Check for this timing malfunction by inserting the slide stop
through the link, but not into the assembled position. Leave the
arm hanging vertically. Remove the recoil spring so you won't have to fight it, and push the slide fully rearward. If the
stop will swing freely, yiu're okay. if it gets into a tight bind, there's a problem. Slightly tight is likely okay, though it's an
experienced "feel" operation if one is in doubt as to how much
of a bind is allowable...It's not very much, and free swing is preferable.

Cheers!
Tuner

[BigG]

I was under the impression that the link never went totally vertical in battery but you could write a hell of a big book on what I don't know. Thanks, 1911tuner, again.

[Handy]

1911tuner,

I must not be explaining this right. While the barrel and link START in the wrong position, they end up in the right position. And they get in that position BEFORE the barrel unlocks. The nothing about the link or its motion has changed, just its starting point.

As soon as the slide has moved just a few thousandths aft, everything is normal. Those lugs don't affect the unlocking.

[1911Tuner]

Handy said:

I must not be explaining this right. While the barrel and link START in the wrong position, they end up in the right position. And they get in that position BEFORE the barrel unlocks. The nothing about the link or its motion has changed, just its starting point.

As soon as the slide has moved just a few thousandths aft, everything is normal. Those lugs don't affect the unlocking.

No..I'm the one who sin't explaining it right.

The link must be in a certain position to get the barrel out of
the way of the slide. If it has to swing through a longer arc, it
won't start barrel linkdown until it has moved farther. The slide's movement is constant. It doesn't know where the barrel is. if the barrel is slow, it's too high. If the barrel is too high, so will the lugs be too high. If the slide doesn't have the required clearance between it and the top of the barrel, the lugs will be damaged.

Remember...The linkdown begins at .100 inch of slide travel, and
is complete by the time the slide reaches .250...If the linkdown
begins at .150 inch of travel due to the link having to mover farther, it will be in the wrong position for the slide to have the clearance necessary.

Try it for yourself. Find an old barrel at a gun show. Use a
round needle file to cut the radius in the lower lug so that the
slide stop pin will be set farther back into the lug. Go shoot the
pistol and look at the tops of the locking lugs. About 20 rounds
should convince you. More than that could damage the slide.

Cheers!
Tuner

[Handy]

Okay, your last post has me pretty confident that your just a little confused on this.

Everything you've described is related to the arc of the link being different than normal. IE, a longer link, a bigger arc and linkdown comes late.

But a damage lug doesn't change the arc, it just starts it in a different place. Its the same arc with the same release points.

What's confusing you is getting hung up on those numbers. Linkdown begins at .1", but only with an in-spec lug! If the lug is damaged, you can't use those numbers because they are measurements based on the good lug position. They are reference numbers to help describe the type of arc the link and barrel should be making.

Those numbers don't actually measure anything meaningful in and of themselves. The reference could have been stated as a degree of arc at linkdown, as in: at full lug clearance, the link should be at no greater than 28 degrees. But since link angle is hard to measure, slide travel is referenced instead. But its only a meaningfull reference IF and only IF the lower lug is providing a good starting point.

I understand why this confuses you, but try and see that the lower lug is not involved in the unlocking process at all. That's between the barrel, link and slide. Once the slide starts back, way before it starts to unlink, the lower lug is no longer involved and can't effect the outcome of the slide/frame/barrel relationship.

I hope that cleared this up.

[dsk]

http://www.afternight.com/smiles/nut.gif

[1911Tuner]

Noooo Handy. I'm not confused. After nearly 40 years of building, rebuilding,
repairing, tweakin', tunin' cussin' and praising Browning's Brainchild, I've
got a pretty good handle on how they work.

In the interest of education, let me try one more time.

Remove the barrel and slip the slide stop pin through the link. Swing the link and pin back until the pin stops in the radius of the lower lug. This is the in-battery position. On a 5-inch gun, the lower lug will be ramped at the front...Just in front of the radius, there is a flat area. When the radius is too far rearward, either from being cut wrong, or damaged, the pin must travel a longer distance before it goes around the corner and starts down the ramp. The barrel will not drop until the pin goes around the corner and starts down the ramp. If the distance that the pin travels before it rounds the corner is too great, linkdown will be delayed, and the slide isn't going to wait for the barrel to catch up.

You can equate it to a camshaft gear that has jumped a tooth in the timing chain. The cam lobe will be late in opening the valve, but the crankshaft will have the piston there on time. The result is often a crash between the top of the piston and the valve.

Best I can do. You're just gonna hafta trust me on this one.

Cheers!
Tuner

[WJR]

What dsk said!

WJR

[Handy]

And I'll give it a last try too.

From the point of view of the upper lugs:
The concern here is that the barrel upper lugs unlock when the barrel is traveling at a particular, mostly downward angle, closer to when the link goes horizontal. The crash comes if that angle is too shallow and the barrel lugs are not pulled from the slide recesses quickly enough. Agreed?

The angle that the barrel is pulled down from the slide at during downlink is determined by the angle of the link. If the link is mostly vertical, it is traveling backwards more than down. If it is swinging toward a more horizontal position, then the barrel is moving more down then aft. The goal is to ensure that the barrel is unlocking at a certain part of it's arc down. Too early and shallow in the arc and it does not disengage freely and the slide bangs the top lugs as it shoots back.

Everything I've just described is caused by the angle of incidence of the swinging link, and can only be affected by the link length and fit, because that is what defines the arc (or any arc). When the lower lug is out of spec, it does not change that arc, it merely increases the distance the arc describes, not its shape, radius or centerpoint.


To relate this to other designs, a peened lower lug is just like grinding material off the rear of the barrel stop/take down latch in a Sig. The recoil spring will pull the slide and barrel more forward, into the barrel stop. This will bring the in-battery position forward. When the gun fires, the slide/barrel must now travel this extra distance aft until it gets to frame locking block. When it does finally get there, the ramps will unlock the barrel in the normal way and there is no way of telling that the barrel/slide traveled an extra distance to get there. It will unlock normally.

The 1911 swinging link doesn't work any differently. The function of the lower lug (defining in-battery position) and the function of the link (unlocking) are unrelated. The measurements that relate the two are merely a tool, they do not describe a functional relationship.

[1911Tuner]

...heh heh...Ok then, lad...Go slam the slide on your pistol to
your heart's content.

By the way, if you really think that the angle of the link
has anything to do with it, go take the link out. You may
be surprised to find that the barrel will fall and return to
battery without it. The link is redundant...only there to
ensure reliable linkdown when the pistol is dirty. If the
gun is well maintained, the link is unnecessary. It's the
crosspin's relationship to the lower lug's raduis that determine's
the timing of linkdown....and if it's not in the right position,
the linkdown won't occur at the right time.

Don't try this with a Commander. The lower lug has a different
shape at the front.

Cheers!
Tuner

[Handy]

At this point, you're meerly insulting me. I've stated numerous times in this thread that dropping the slide is obviously bad for it, and agreed that it may contribute to lug damage.

The ONLY thing I didn't agree with is your explanation on why that damage specifically occurs.

Go ahead and talk down to me, most people here know there is no reason for that. I may occasionally be in error, but I'm never stupid.


And suggesting that the 1911 will correctly function with no link is ridiculous. Sure it will unlock, after the lower lug slams into the frame and bounces down.

You've overreached yourself.

[1911Tuner]

No no! I'm not an insulting person. I'm just aware that you have your mind made up and don't want to confuse the issue with facts.

And the link really IS not necessary. I've proven it many times
during live-fire...and guess what? If you have a true ordnance-spec pistol and true GI-spec ammunition, you can shoot it
without the extractor and it will function just fine until the
last round in the magazine...Go and try it for yourself.

Be well...
Tuner

[Delmar]

What a fascinating discussion!
If the battered lower lug positions the barrel after top dead center, it also means the top barrel lugs are pulled down with less engagement to the lug recess in the slide. If you fire a round at this point, the barrel has to go back through top dead center, pushing the upper barrel lugs up into the slide lugs under pressure from the discharged round before the link starts to pull the barrel out of engagement with the slide. This should batter the upper lugs pretty well I would think. After recoil, the slide is pushing the next round into the chamber, and the barrel lug feet allow the barrel to back over center and wearing the slide lugs again.
If this condition is allowed to continue, it should eventually peen the slide/barrel lugs until you have almost no engagement, and the peened lower lugs are not going to set the barrel up in the proper location, meaning bad angles all around.

[Handy]

I suspect that is what is probably happening, Delmar.



1911tuner, I just realized why this all seemed so familiar:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7008&goto=nextoldest

Did you use to go by "Pistolsmith"?

[1911Tuner]

Nope Handy...Sorry mah fren.

[Handy]

Must just be the "well, son, I been doin' this 40 years" attitude.

Where's Ol Fuff to back you up? Didn't take you up on your invitation to learn the young 'un?

[1911Tuner]

Could be...Like old Will Rogers used ta say...

"A man that's had a tiger by the tail knows 5 or 6 more things
about tigers than one who hasn't."

Regards...
T

[1911Tuner]

Handy...I don't intend to engage in any silly arguments. A
question was asked, and I answered it and gave the facts
as to what can happen. The information is good.
Do with that as you will.

Tuner---->out

[Delmar]

Tuner-am I to understand that only the lower lug, the barrel bushing and the barrel hood properly locate the barrel on firing?

[DJL2]

Ok, maybe I am just off kilter here. I have not ever been alive 40 years, let alone tuning pistols that long. Here is a really easy way to check what happens. Do it. Test the gun under the conditions being discussed. Many a good engineering theory has been ruined be cold hard data. This would certainly sort this out quickly.

[Handy]

DJL2,

What test are you proposing? Damaging the lower lugs, then firing it? Since all parties agree that this will damage the upper lugs, it won't tell us why, which is the question.

Same with taking out the link. No one disagrees that the weapon will function. Just whether the design doesn't need a link, or whether the rear of the lower lug bangs off the frame causing it to unlock.


I don't have the money for destructive testing, especially tests that won't answer the questions.

[DJL2]

A shooting vice a high speed camera, a few reference marks on a pistol simulating deformation described in this post. An examination of the pistols subsequent wear characteristics and analysis of the visual data collected should clearly establish in what manner the pistol is wearing and unlocking. If I were actually administering said test, I would do so until failure and then analyze the part(s) that failed in order to determine which stresses caused the failure. This is just a simple ME talking here. I would want to put strain guages on the pistol too.

Granted the average jane/joe does not have the cash for this, but this is nice and easy in concept.

[New_comer]

Your debate has just about convinced me NOT to buy a 1911. :banghead:


I guess I'll stick to my link-less USP. I can slam it home all I want...


Luckily, there's a Peters Stahl 1911 that would save me the troubles of these link 'weakness' being discussed... :D

[dsk]

Your linkless USP may suffer peening of the slide locking surface at the ejection port opening if you slam-close it a lot.

No handgun is totally abuse-proof.

[1911Tuner]

No...Don't damage it...just over cut it a little with a round file,
which would have the same effect of beating it backward
by slamming the slide. If the barrel is good, a custom builder
will buy it from you, because he can weld the lug back up, and get use it to get a hard fit barrel lockup.

In the interest of trying to get through, I'll try to break it
down geometrically.

Vertical lockup is made by the lower lug bearing on the
slide stop pin. The lug has a very short "flat" area to accomplish this. The link overcenters by about a half degree to assure
positive lockup. National Match pistols are set at one full
degree and not one minute of angle more.

If the flat area of the lug is made too long, either by abuse or
by cutting the radius back too far...as can happen when fitting
a barrel...the pin has a longer distance to traverse on the lug flat BEFORE linkdown can begin, and then the rear of the barrel changes directions... it's not moving straight back any more at that point, but rather begins to move on a different axis. This doesn't happen instaneously...It takes time for the barrel to switch from a horizontal axis to a vertical one. See
the Law of Relativity.

Since the barrel starts at a later point, due to the longer flat,
the linkdown will be delayed because the pin doesn't
get to the corner of the lug on time. The slide doesn't slow down and wait for the barrel to catch up. It keeps moving, and since the barrel is at a higher point than it should be, a crash occurs
at the front of the locking lugs.

Study it closely, and it will start to make more sense.
Again...This is not a theory. I learned it the hard way
when I overcut a lug several years ago, and ruined
the locking lugs on a NM barrel. I had to weld the lugs
up and start all over, blowing several hours of tedious work
because I was impatient and didn't fully understand the
linkdown timing.

Best I can do...The rest is up to you.

Cheers all,
Tuner

[Handy]

"Law of relativity"?

I think you'll find that everything happens in a 1911 at low enough speeds to not have to involve any of Einsteins theories. Newton works fine.


Delmar,
You didn't get your question answered. Without the link, there is no aft camming surface to correctly time or cause "linkdown". If the barrel happens to unlock from the side without the link, it is because the back surface of the lower lug has bounced off the frame and the impact has torn it out of top lug engagement. On a ramped barrel this wouldn't even happen and the barrel would only start to unlock when the ramp dug into the top round in the mag.

Despite claims to the contrary, the link is the only thing that correctly unlocks the barrel. It is unnecessary for locking, because the link's path is mimicked by the lower lug areas shape, but that only provides a camming surface in one direction - locking.

[1911Tuner]

I answered his question...I just didn't do it out loud.
No sense in this taking off on another tangent.

If you really think that the gun won't function reliably without the link, why don't you remove one and try it? If the gun is clean,
it won't know the difference. The shape of the lower lug is what cams it up into vertical lock, and the vertical dimension is what
determines how tightly it locks. The barrel will fall into the saddle
just fine without the link....Commanders won't do it due to
different lower lug geometry.

...and the Law of Relativity applies to any object that has mass,
no matter how slow it moves, or how small it is.

Be cheerful...
Tuner

[Mannlicher]

Letting the slide slam home to strip a round from the mag and load it is proper. I pesonally dont let a slide slam home on an empty gun. May not hurt it, but I have WAY too much money invested to take chances.

[Handy]

Tuner,

Among the things you're failing to get here is that there is a difference between something working, and working correctly. A motor will run on 3 cylinders, but it's not right, or good for the motor.

All Browning linked or unlinked designs require TWO camming surfaces to operate CORRECTLY. When you remove the link, you remove the UNlock camming surface. Insisting that it still works is not an acceptable substitute for understanding WHY it works (which you don't, since you have yet to submit an explanation), and what is the downside to the gun cycling in this state.

Q: What allows unlocking with no link?
A: It just does. Try it, you'll see.
An answer which just doesn't wash with a mechanical device as simple as a pistol.

I'm sure you are an excellent technitian and can apply what you read in manuals to a high state of repair. However, you continue to show that you don't understand the underlying principles of this basic design. And in your failure to think through what you're preaching, you've suggested that it is acceptable to fire a 1911 with no link - which is dumb because it's beating the lower lug into the frame, and one will break eventually.


As for relativity, mass is a tool in such equations to calculate energy at relativistic (near light) speed. They have nothing to do with the simple Newtonian physics involved in a gun. It would be really smart to drop that one - way too many people here know their physics.

[1911Tuner]

Speed of Light? Law of relativity:

Objects that are at rest tend to remain at rest.
Objects in motion tend to remain in motion.

That ain't exactly Einstein's Theory.

And I'm afraid that it's you who doesn't understand the
design, Handy. That lower lug will not be beaten up
if the link isn't present. The ramp at the front will
slide up the slidestop crosspin, and cam into vertical lock.

And gravity brings it down it as the barrel slides backward on the crosspin and the horizantal lock with the slide is broken.

There will be no beating or banging. It will do this trick
by hand in slow motion, or at full speed when firing...and
I'm not preaching to anybody. I'm trying to save somebody a
pile of money by showing why it's destructive to let a slide go
on an empty chamber or by installing a long link in the hopes
that it will make their pistol more accurate. Yeah...a too-long
link is destructive thing too.


You're starting to sound like you're grasping at straws. Might
Be time for you to remove a link and try it for yourself. It's
a 5-minute job, and you might learn something.

Be Cheerful...
Tuner

[Tamara]

Speed of Light? Law of relativity:

Objects that are at rest tend to remain at rest.
Objects in motion tend to remain in motion.

That ain't exactly Einstein's Theory.

Er, no, that's Newton's First Law.

The General and Special Theories of Relativity, are, however, Einstein's, and don't really have all that much to do with the operation of semiautomatic pistols. ;)

[1911Tuner]

Ah! I stand corrected. It was a slip of the ol' brain. Been many
years since I was in school...(Law of Motion...Law of Motion...
he muttered.)

Duh!
Tuner

[Handy]

Well, obviously you're not even reading what I post. I told you it was Newton 2 posts ago.

You're giving gravity way too much credit in unlocking the gun. The cycle takes less than a tenth of a second, yet the barrel is going to change directions due to gravity alone? It's not going to work that way with a pressurized case, an extractor tensioned around the case head and a barrel whose lugs are being pulled tight against the slide lugs. There are too many friction elements holding the barrel up.

In other things that you're not reading, I said that the BACK of the barrel lug (not the front, as you responded) would be the one taking the beating because that is the part that would now arrest the barrel's rearward travel with the link gone.


Here's some tricks you can try: Fire the gun without a link SIDEWAYS. Bet it will still work. Why? Because gravity isn't what's unlocking the barrel.

Also, have you tried hand cycling without a link and WITH a fired case under the extractor?

[1911Tuner]

Yep...Sure have. I've played with that ol' 1911 in ways that I can't even remember.

Sure it's more than gravity...and the back of the lug won't get beat up. It hits the impact surface in the frame just as linkdown is complete. Go look at a linkless design...like the P-35
Browning (Hi-Power). The lower lug is just solid, and
does the same thing as the link does in the 1911.
it anchors the barrel to the frame, and makes the link-up more
consistent, but above that function, it's not necessary.

About not reading all of it. I hit a wall when I read that you
are still arguing that the link alone pulls the barrel down,
and without it, the whole thing will come to a halt, with the
lower lug damaged. Plus the fact that I read a lot of these
in the wee hours before i've gotten enough coffee down my neck to connect all the wires.

Go ahead...Take the link out, and while you're at it, try a
magazine full without the extractor, too. Be sure to use
GI-spec ammo.

Be cheery!
Tuner

[Handy]

How can you compare a 1911 without link (one camming surface) to a BHP with two? That makes no sense. Do you even understand what surfaces I'm talking about?

[1911Tuner]

Yes, Handy. I do. I've worked on a few P-35's.

We seem to have gone off on a tangent here. Let's get back to the original point

The reason is that the linkdown must begin early enough to get below the slide on time. The farther the pin has to travel on the lower lug, the later it will begin to fall. The later it begins to fall, the less time it has to get out of the way.

One last try.

The link doesn't have anything to do with the barrel rising and falling. All it does is anchor the barrel to the frame to effect a more straight line movement into and out of lockup. That's all that the "double camming surface" does in the P-35...without the potential for the problems associated with a moving part. Remove the link from a 1911, or the "bottom camming surface" from the Hi-Power, and both pistols will work fine as long as they are fairly clean, and aren't fired upside down.

Neither does the link have any effect on vertical lockup, unless it's too long, and that will bring on its own set of problems if allowed to operate in that condition for very long.

Your big clue here is that it's known as a *falling* link...It doesn't pull, push, or do anything except act as an anchor, and is mainly just along for the ride. If the length is correct, the only forces exerted on it are those imposed by the weight and inertia of the barrel. If it's not correct, everything changes.

That's about as simple as I can explain it....Either you can see
this, or you can't. Most folks can.

Tuner

[1911Tuner]

The last reply was edited in order to simplify the information.


Be well,
Tuner

[Al Thompson]

IMHO, we've reached the end of this thread.