[Drizzt]

The Herald (Glasgow)


May 31, 2003

SECTION: Pg. 6

LENGTH: 429 words

HEADLINE: Most US firefights shot out at less than 30 yards, classified report finds

BYLINE: Ian Bruce Defence Correspondent

BODY:


THE vast majority of firefights between US and enemy infantry during the Iraq campaign took place at less than 30 yards' range and engagement of targets beyond 100 yards was "rare", according to a still-classified US Marine Corps report on the conflict.

Even US snipers picked off fedayeen gunmen and Saddam's Republican Guard at distances which only once exceeded 300 yards, although their rifles were capable of killing at more than 1000.

Despite the employment of state-of-the-art technology which allowed US bombers to fly round trips from Missouri to strike targets half a world away in Baghdad with pinpoint accuracy, the "grunt's war" on the ground was fought out at little more than the effective range of eighteenth-century muskets. The study, involving interviews with marines who took part in the advance on the Iraqi capital, is aimed at identifying equipment problems to allow improvements to be made in the way America wages war.

Its initial conclusions show that most marines thought the standard M16 rifle was too long and unwieldy for the job of clearing buildings room by room. Some used shorter, captured AK47 assault weapons or pistols in preference to anything from their own armoury. The group is now recommending that every marine is issued with a pistol as a back-up.

The British system of moving equipment in freight containers on trucks fitted with their own cranes comes in for praise as being "three times as efficient" as the US method of transporting individual items.

The UK logistics chain simply dumped the containers filled with requested kit close behind the fighting lines to be unloaded and their cargoes forwarded by battlegroup drivers. The empty containers were retrieved on the next supply run. US forces had no comparable distribution method, leading to delays in re -supply and a slowing down mobile operations.

The shortage of ceramic plates for body armour was a prime concern. The plates were said to be "worth their weight in gold" and saved five lives in one battalion alone.

The marines now are to request development of a lighter and wider plate. A flak jacket with protective front and back plates weighs 35lb, a considerable burden to infantry in hot climates who are already carrying up to 60lb of kit.

Despite the weight penalty, the study concludes that the Sapi - small arms protective insert - plates were "God's gift to the Marine Corps".

British forces who took part in the campaign are to carry out their own detailed review of the performance of equipment later this year.

[Standing Wolf]

The group is now recommending that every marine is issued with a pistol as a back-up.

No objections from me!

[444]

I have read much of this in other documents.

A couple things that stand out in my mind.

We have been reading for years, posts about how the M16 lacks power at long range and we have to go with the M14 for all these long shots.

Second, we have been hearing that the Army's M4 Carbine was a grave mistake because it has a 14.5" barrel and the Marines were the only smart ones because they stuck with the 20" barrel.

But, when you ask a Marine, he tells you that the average distance of engagement was 30 yards and he wishes they had a much shorter rifle.

[Feanaro]

The group is now recommending that every marine is issued with a pistol as a back-up.

Took them long enough...

[Boats]

They hardly need me to tell them, but the Corps should be cautious that they don't re-equip to fight the last war. Short rifles are great in MOUT and other confined battlefields, but I'll bet the AARs were different in Afghanistan.

[444]

Not trying to be funny. I honestly can't remember.
Were the Marines deployed to Afganistan ?

[George Hill]

The group is now recommending that every marine is issued with a pistol as a back-up.

I nominate Springfield XD pistols in .40 Caliber. Hey, if any pistol breaks, they can just send it back to Springfield.

[Feanaro]

Sorry, not up to NATO standards. :barf:

[D.W. Drang]

Sorry, not up to NATO standards. Why do I feel that this won't be as much of an issue in the future...?:evil:

[Nightcrawler]

Well, this goes back for my devil's advocate argument about replacing M4 carbines with FN P90 SMGs. If we're only going to prepare for firefights under 100 yards, the P90 offers even less weight, recoil, and more ammo. Right? Will put a .22 caliber hole clean through a badguy, just like an SS109 round from an M4 will, right?

[Bostonterrier97]

Hmmm...maybe it is time for the M16 to be replaced by the Ruger 10/22.

Lighter, more cost effective, soldiers can carry more ammo, less recoil..

[444]

Sorry, not up to NATO standards. :barf:

[Boats]

444--

I wasn't trying to imply the Marines were in Afghanistan, but I suppose they are forbidden by law or something unofficial from learning from the Army's experience in a theater different from Iraq right?;)

[Jim March]

My nominee for the backup handgun:

Stainless Ruger GP100 in 9mm with moonclips and a 4" tube. Fixed sights regulated for NATO hardball.

Yes, I'm serious. It's a *backup*, it needs to be stone-axe reliable in bad conditions. 9mm fodder is available everywhere, most of the time you can even use captured stock. There's no controls or prep to fire, it's "grab and go". And in quantity they'll only cost $300 or less, with training costs very low too.

Kits containing extra springs, a spare takedown pin and 20 moon clips would fill half the volume of a cigarrete pack and could keep the gun running indefinately.

[444]

I guess you didn't understand, I don't know if the Marines were in Afganistan or not. I was asking a question.
I do know the Army was there, but I don't know how their weapons performed. I know I have read a lot of stuff on the internet by guys who wern't there and really don't know anything about it, but would like you to think they do. That information ran the gammit, but I take all of it with a grain of salt.

[gunsmith]

#6: your weapon is made by the lowest bidder.
#24:Things that need to go together to work,
usually can't be shipped together.

[Andrew Wyatt]

just issue kahrs in 9mm for use as backup handguns.

IMHO, their rifles should be short stocked 16 inchers. the unwieldy factor is because the A2 stock is too long, not the barrel length.

[Delmar]

As Boats alluded to earlier, it would be a bad thing to equip our grunts with specialized equipment for a particular war, but the idea of a short rifle, maybe a bullpup design in order to keep the OAL short, might be something to look into.
Personal favorite for 30 yards and under? 12 gauge high capacity with maybe a high cap 45, compensated for fast follow up shots.

[Al Thompson]

444 - yes the Marines were in Afganistan. Not sure how much combat they saw, but they (IIRC) secured Camp Rhino.

[Blackhawk 6]

The marines were among the first conventional forces on the ground in Afghanistan. In addition to securing Camp Rhino, the y secured Khandahar Airfield. I am aware of at least one significant engagement at each location. My Battalion releived the Marines at Khandahar in mid-January 2002.

Based on my experience in Afghanistan, I would not say the Marines and the Army differ to greatly on the issue of the M-4.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

according to a still-classified US Marine Corps report on the conflict.

Still classified? It has received pretty wide Internet distribution for a supposedly classified study. The quotes he is citing on straight from the Marine Corps study that has been posted to every gun board forum on the net.

[VaughnT]

Primary weapon: M4 with barrel cut to optimum length for the chosen round. OAL reduced by shortening the stock, which really does get in the way when you're wearing a flak jacket and pack.

BUG: Smith & Wesson Model 66 or 686, chambered for the .357. Lots of cheap shooting with the .38 and you can step up for combat. I wouldn't mind the aforementioned Ruger if the quality was there. Everyone knows that Smith rules the revolver world!

[rebbryan]

??? i thought they were issued berettas as a bug :confused:

[Skunkabilly]

??? i thought they were issued berettas as a bug

Shhhh maybe I can get me a stash higher than my CRV through CMP in the next few years!!!! :evil:

[CMcDermott]

Are there any decent callopsible stocks for the M16? Something that when extended is sturdy enough to allow proper use of a sling, and when collapsed is short enough to be out of the way. Folding stocks usually make some part of the weapons controls hard to access, but a true collapsing stock seems to be whats desired - as long as it really is sturdy enough to work properly.

[444]

Folding stocks for an M16 don't exist. The buffer spring and buffer tube are in the stock. If you had a folding stock, either the bolt wouldn't retract, or it would fall out the back.

[280PLUS]

telescopic., i believe. might fit yours, other mfgs offer them too i believe.

that report gives me just one more reason to love my shorty...

:D

[444]

By the way, thanks for the info on the Marines in Afganistan. There has been so much going on for the last six months or so, that I have had a hard time keeping up with it. Between the vast amount of information and the inevitable news burnout, I just couldn't remember the details. The invasion of Afganistan seems like a long time ago for some reason.

[gryphon]

I know thta i am in no means a military expert, and I have never served in the armed forces, but I think that my ideas have some interest non the less.

I would either go with one of 2 approaches.

1. Equip units with both the M16 and the M4. Or the equivalent of whatever they happen to be using at the time.
2. Train the troops in multiple weapons, then deploy them with the weapon they will need for their mission.

[444]

Well, this whole discussion about 20" vs. 14.5" has been discussed about as much as the .45 vs. 9mm or 1911 vs. Glock.

I personally am on the side that says we should be using the M4. If you need to shoot at 800 yards, call in artillary, call in mortor fire, call in an air stike, engage them with heavy weapons, whatever. It isn't that you can't hit someone at ranges like that, it is that few people can do it under battlefield conditions. This isn't from personal battlefield experience, but from watching fairly seasoned shooters fire at lessor ranges and miss; on a rifle range. Of course this whole idea would be much better if the designated marksman or squad level sniper was a part of it.

[Blackhawk 6]

Gryphon,

Your idea is a good one. We refer to it as the "arms room concept" and use it for specialized weapon systems. For example, in some units the sniper teams have access to accurized M-16's, the M-24 SWS and the M-82A1 and use the arms room concept for the mission.

The problem with employing this concept with the general issue weapon, aside from the cost, is that conditions can often change rapidly on the battlefield. For example, I may conduct dismounted patrols in Afghanistan and select the M-16A2. How do I get my M-4 when I am forced to clear a cave complex or a village? I can not.

The answer, though not perfect, is to issue a rifle that handles the most common scenarios well. Not all, but most. I have carried both the M-16A2 and the M-4 during my career and, in my opinion, is the better weapon for the most commonly encountered situations.

[GSB]

Come on people, the ONLY acceptable handgun is a gold-anodized Desert Eagle in .50AE! With pearl grip panels! :D

[Skunkabilly]

The UK logistics chain simply dumped the containers filled with requested kit close behind the fighting lines to be unloaded and their cargoes forwarded by battlegroup drivers. The empty containers were retrieved on the next supply run. US forces had no comparable distribution method, leading to delays in re -supply and a slowing down mobile operations.

I'm just wondering, someone said the 'L' word...where's Twoblink? :evil:

[garrettwc]

I wonder if it would be feasible to add a 16 - 20" upper as an option in the SOPMOD kits?

As for a backup - MEU(SOC)'s all around.

[Andrew Wyatt]

that's not a bad idea.


as for the meusocs, they're basically custom pistols. there is no way that can issue one to everyone that needs a piece.



a kahr t9 would be the hot stuff for what they need a pistol for.

[DrDremel]

You are talking about fighting a military force that is not very motivated to fight that is past of a force that is less than half what is was when they lost. The reason the fighting was close is due to Iraqi soldiers waiting until they are cornered, can’t run any where or surprised. A motivated enemy will fight at longer distances. To issue a firearm with 100 yard terminal effectiveness because you had a fight where it was not needed while fighting a demoralized, forced army of ill-trained people that had to fight or their family would be sent to prison is not the best baseline. That is like saying that since you drove your car for the last week and never drove at night, it would be a good idea to take the lights off the car since you won’t need them most of the time anyway. I’ll bet there were more soldiers shooting at over 100 yards than there were soldiers that were shot in the ceramic plate. So it is good to have a ceramic plate that is only needed .01% of the time , yet to have a rifle that shoots further than 100 yards is not needed because it was only used at that distance 5% of the time? Maybe they should stop issuing snowshoes or skis to any soldiers since they were not used in the desert? Now for issuing a pistol to every soldier, shame on us for not doing that from the beginning. If the M16 is too long for indoor use, then issue a pistol with a large capacity magazine, say 15 rounds. That way it is big enough to use as an OFFENSIVE weapon. The HK MK23 pistol would be a great general issue handgun. It is big but not really any heavier than an M9. It uses a better round for use as a primary weapon.

[garrettwc]

as for the meusocs, they're basically custom pistols. there is no way that can issue one to everyone that needs a piece.


That's true. But you could build a less expensive production model like the one that did the job up until the mid 80's.

[willyjixx]

why not just slap an m16 A4 upper on the M4 lower. good collapsable stock with a tried an true upper with an accesorie rail.

an whatever happened to front line soldiers having a shotgun available for room clearing?.

an i still dont understand why all soldiers are not even carrying a Pistol. especially in the Infantry? i carried a S.A.W an i definatley should have had one. even though it can be classified as a crew served weapon most of the time i was on my own. thankfully good maint kept it runnin well but there were always the other gunners who swore what crap it was. a BUG M9 sure would be peace of mind an cheap insurance in a trench or building.

[BigG]

So, why not have multiple uppers per weapon? A 20" normal AR15/M16 and a M4 shorty. Then they can adapt the weapon to long range or street fightin as necessary.

[Nightcrawler]

Actually, quite a few shotguns saw service in the Iraq War.

As for M16s being too long...I don't think so. A typical combat shotgun with an 18-20" barrel (giving it a magazine tube capacity of seven to eight rounds) is the same length (40") overall, abouts, as the M16.

However, I can see how the longer A2 stock would be a bear with thick body armor. The shorter length of pull, as well as the lighter barrel, are two reasons I like the A1 better. I think the A2 is heavier than a 5.56mm rifle needs to be. The heavy barrel might be useful for extended automatic fire, but the M16A2 isn't full auto anyway.

If they insist on sticking with the M16, my choice would be a 20" lightweight barrel (perhaps a little heavier than the A1, but no moreso than the A2), semiauto only, with a stock that has an adjustable length of pull but is sturdier than the CAR collapsing ones.

[willyjixx]

carrying to much crap already. why add somethin else.

new invention. the variable barrel! the adjustable length barrel.

i still like the post on bullpup designs. the isrealis got a bad a$$ one that uses the 5.56 an AR/M-16 mag. an you can slap all the crap on it that you could an M-4

[Penforhire]

I like the moonclip DA revolver concept someone floated earlier. How wild would it be chambered for 5.56? Too big? Well, then the original 9 mm suggestion was good.

[Andrew Wyatt]

bullpup rifles are a really great way to get yourself killed.

1. you can't shoot them left or right handed without switching parts around.

2. if everyone in the swuad has a right handed weapon, they'll have to shoot right handed, ergo, it takes forever to respond to threats from the right on patrol.

3. bullpups have bad triggers.

[willyjixx]

bullpup rifles are a really great way to get yourself killed.
that can be said for anything

1. you can't shoot them left or right handed without switching parts around.

True! but so is the M-4/M-16 currently used. they do have brass deflectors. being left handed i just adapt an overcome.

2. if everyone in the swuad has a right handed weapon, they'll have to shoot right handed, ergo, it takes forever to respond to threats from the right on patrol. you mean left?

along those lines comes a good team/squad leader for proper placement of troops. once again adapt an overcome.... most crew served an full auto weapons eject from the right of the weapon. so there is that problem too. situational awareness deals with this as well as lotsa lotsa lotsa training


3. bullpups have bad triggers.
inherently so! more moving parts

[Nightcrawler]

FN made a bullpup that ejects forward, the FN2000. Friendly to lefties like me. Has various integrally fitting accessories, such as an optical sight and a grenade launcher.

As for the bad triggers....I'm sure they could make one with a decent trigger if they tried. But a match trigger isn't necessary on a military weapon.

[Correia]

Bullpup fan here.

You can fire a BP with your left hand around a barricade, but you can't get into a traditional cheek weld position. So it is only good out to a limited range, but you can still put rounds on target. Hold PG in left hand, mount on shoulder, angle away from body, right hand grasps magazine or mag housing.

Even then, it is pretty rare for people to switch shoulders with their regular long guns. Most people haven't trained for it, don't do it as well, and just contort themselves around their cover to return fire with their right shoulder. Also if somebody is using a tac sling, this will often make it impossible to shoot from your left shoulder anyway without undoing the sling.

Trigger pull is entirely up to the design. You won't ever have a crisp target trigger, but you can get a trigger that is equal to most military rifles. The Tavor I tried had a decent trigger pull.

The FN 2000 does eject forward. One of the Russian guns that competed in the Abakan project also had forward ejection, and that was over 10 years ago. (basically the shell is lifted during extraction, and then shoved out the front when the bolt returns)

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'm left handed. this means that if i were to join an army with bullpup guns i'd be screwed.

when a left handed guy carries a rifle, the muzzle naturally points right. when he has to engauge something to the right, the muzzle is already pointing in the general direction.

when a left handed person has to engauge something on his left side, things get difficult. he has to switch his foot position and rotate entire body around. this is more pronounced with bullpups, because of their ergonomics. in addition to the everybody having their guns pointed the same way issue.

I've been present at local field rifle events that included targets popping up out of the brush at close distances, and the people with bullpups had a harder time getting their guns swung around, and the all right handed and all left handed teams had harder times engauging targets from their right or left, respectively, for the reasons outlined above.

when i shoot an m4, i don't have an ejection port next to my carotid artery, thankyouverymuch.

[Correia]

Andy, that is why we would give you the SAW. :)

[Nightcrawler]

I'm left handed. this means that if i were to join an army with bullpup guns i'd be screwed.

I am too. Virtually every military bullpup can be converted for a lefty. The AUG requires a new bolt, but the Tavor and the FA MAS can just be reversed, AFAIK. No fuss, no muss, no special parts needed.

Unsure about the Enfield/HK SA-80 (L85A1/A2) the Brits are using.

But a design like the FN 2000 (or their P90 bullpup SMG, which ejects downward) solves that problem nicely.

[willyjixx]

Tavor is the Isreali Bullpup right! think i saw that at a show....


when a left handed guy carries a rifle, the muzzle naturally points right. when he has to engauge something to the right, the muzzle is already pointing in the general direction.
when a left handed person has to engauge something on his left side, things get difficult. he has to switch his foot position and rotate entire body around. this is more pronounced with bullpups, because of their ergonomics. in addition to the everybody having their guns pointed the same way issue.


your right on that!!

however im gonna guess were not ever in the service. at least not a line company.

you dont walk a straight line heading do north so to speak. you constantly scan an turn your body. facing all angles. taking in all your surroundings.

course i really cant argure the hot brass in the charotid though

;)

[Andrew Wyatt]

this applies no matter what formation you walk in.


yes, you mive your torso around while walking, but if someone appears off your beam with an RPG you're still probably not going to be facing that direction.


as for the FN2000, how do you clear it? can you see the chamber? can you diagnose malfunctions easily with it? (i don't see how you can, with the chamber area not being visible)

for the bullpup concept to work, the rifle needs to be able to be reversed from right to left hand operation without dissassembling the weapon or requiring extra parts, have a chamber that can be seen and manipulated though a port, be as relaible as a conventional rifle.


that said, i've handled and fired several species of bullpup, (left handed and right handed), and dislike how they hide everything you need to see and manipulate easily, like the magazine well and ejection port.