.380, decent defense gun or not?

[davidd]

I was just given a .380 and thought i would use it for home defense. I am familiar with rifles and shotguns, but have little experience with hand guns. I purchased a touch pad safe to keep the gun handy but also safe. I have also practiced with it a few times and it seems to function nicely.

The brand is FIE, which i never heard of, with a 3 1/2 inch barrel. Is it any good or junk? Also, i looked at a few ballistics and the KE doesn't seem very impressive. I realize the brass is small, so it's no surprise.

anyway, my question is, i don't really want to purchase a larger caliber gun, but don't want to be mislead to believe this .380 will make a decent self defense gun if it is inadequeate. Also, if your comments are supportive of this gun, what load would provide this caliber with the greatest impact and margin of error?

thx, dave

[Tactical Ninja]

Any handgun is better than no handgun. If you had to, would you rather shoot a BG with your little .380 or point your finger at him and go "psheew! psheew!" ?

.380 isn't a commonly accepted defense caliber (those being 9mm, .40 and .45) but if it came down to ten rounds of .380 versus a bad guy, my money would be on the .380. One-shot stops might be a little less forthcoming; stick with the shotgun for home defense.

All I know about FIE is that the FIE Titan was more-or-less a cheap, but solid, gun.

Since .380 is (or was, at least) a popular pocket/backup gun caliber, you should be able to find a decent assortment of defense loads for it - Speer Gold Dots and the like.

[choochboost]

Not. Don't use JHP, use FMJ.

[Ala Dan]

I wouldn't consider any F.I.E. adequate for self defense in any
given situation; as they just are not reliable enough for my liking~!:uhoh:
You would be much better off with a KEL-TEC P3AT .380, than that F.I.E.
.380. Keep in mind, that the .380 ACP is only marginal for self-defense
scenarios; but I guess the F.I.E. is better than NO gun at all~?:scrutiny: :eek:

[RyanM]

Better than nothing but worse than a baseball bat, I'd say.

[shamrock404]

This is probably not what you want to hear but the .380 is better than not having anything and could antagonize an attacker. Up close which is too close it may be fine. I would get a large caliber weapon .40 or larger. Have a nice day and a wonderful week.

[aaronrkelly]

I dont know much about your FIE brand weapon......but dont let everyone here discourage you about it. If you take it and a couple hundred rounds of ammo to the range and come back happy.....its a good gun. There are always those that will bad mouth a weapon, even if its a good one. For instance every Taurus weapon I have had was pure JUNK....but not all Taurii are....I just got unlucky.

The .380 is not a powerhouse round....but its very sufficient. Dont get to hung up on the size of the projectile.....put it in the right place and it will work very well.

[Alan Fud]

Don't use JHP, use FMJ. The 2003 edition of Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's Streetstoppers rates the .3800 JHP's much more effective than FMJ .380's.

[Harry Paget Flashman]

In my experience .380 FMJ feeds more reliably than JHP. YMMV.

[geekWithA.45]

IMO, .380 is the dead minimum defensively credible round.

It's kinda marginal, but I and others consider it a reasonable compromise, trading effective physics for a small, light concealable package suitable for zero burden carriage, based largely on the theory that the .380 in your pocket's better than the .454 casull in your drawer.

As a house gun, I think it's too light.

House defense guns are typically larger than what you'd CCW, simply because you don't have to hide the thing or lug it around all day long. For example, my "house (hand) gun" is a Para-Ord LTD14.45. This is a big, heavy, double stack 1911. I can and have carried it, but it's 3 full pounds, fully loaded.

Given that you've got other options, I'd reach for a shotgun when defending the house.

[Jackal]

I never have felt undergunned when carrying my P3AT. Well, that is until I got my Taurus 445 .44spl snubbie...:D

[tnieto2004]

.380 will put the hurt to someone hit with it .. Work on accuracy and .380 will be alright .. I have a MAK .380 I enjoy shooting .. Its a good round ..

[Green Lantern]

I'm wearing a .380 in a shoulder holster right now, if that tells you anything. ;)

And I also carry one in my pocket when VERY GOOD CONCEALMENT is the order of the day.

And my only shotgun is a .410 pump, so guess what? If it happens to be the gun I'm carrying instead of my 9mm Glock 19, it usually also serves as my home defense gun when I turn in at night.

I'm with aaron - get some assorted rounds and take it to the range. Maybe in your gun, FMJ will cycle better, or not. I've never had a problem with JHPs in my Bersa or Kel-Tec. In fact, the opposite - Wolf FMJ turned my Bersa into a "jam-o-matic" :eek: when I tried shooting them!

Find a round that feeds 100% and PRACTICE with it. The .380 may not "blow your head clean off," but it's all about shot placement even if you're using a .45 - IMHO!

EDIT - for specific loads. I have some Cor-Bon DPX, supposed to be pretty potent. It's fed 100% so far, but I haven't practiced with it near enough to be 100% SURE of it. I guess the safest thing for ME to do would be to chamber a DPX and fill the mag with a round that I have proven in my guns. The Remington 88gr JHP. Not a hot rod by any stretch, but it's dead reliable. Again, in MY Bersa Thunder .380 and MY Kel-Tec P3AT. See what YOUR gun likes! ;)

[fencer1960]

The .380 is generally considered to be marginal as a self defense round, but most of those sounding off about caliber effectiveness (including me) have never had to shoot a bad guy. Some widely acknowledged points follow:

1. Compared to rifles and shotguns, all pistols are pretty weak weapons.

2. The gun you have is far more useful than the one you're saving up for.

3. Only hits count. So, practice. Get instruction if you need it.

4. I wouldn't volunteer to be shot with a .380 just to prove it's a wimp caliber.

Enjoy your new gun.

[nwilliams]

The .380 is not a powerhouse round....but its very sufficient. Dont get to hung up on the size of the projectile.....put it in the right place and it will work very well.

Agree 100%!

Any caliber will take down and attacker if shot placement is true. Not everyone needs to carry a .40 or .45 or even a 9mm for defense, for a lot of people having a gun is all they need to feel secure. I would say in most cases any attacker will back down if a gun is pulled on them, regardless of the size of the gun or caliber. I would take the advice others have given about your choice in firearm, I have no experience with FIE firearms but it sounds like others on here don't hold them in too high regard. I would take that advice into account before worrying too much about caliber.

[ArchAngelCD]

Unfortunately, in today’s world too many people think the .380 is a marginal or poor defense round. This round has been around for a very long time and does a very good job. If you do your part it will do it's part.

The .32 Auto (7.65 Browing) and the .380 Auto (9X17mm) have been used by the military and LEO's in Europe forever with good results.

The .380 Auto (9X17mm) the 9mm Makarov (9X18mm) and the 9mm Lugar (9X19mm Parabellum) are all 9mm bullets. Of course they are not the same weight and don't travel at the same speed but they are all effective.

If you don't want to but anything more powerful than a .380 like you said in an above post then buy a good .380 Auto pistol and practice a lot with it until you know you can hit what you aim at, then practice some more. If you want a .380 only because it’s small then there are several 9mm pistols out there that are just as small or smaller than a .380.
Look here and you will see what I mean: http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/


Good luck and be safe.

[3rdpig]

I second what Geekwitha45 said. It's better than no gun at all, but it falls far short of what you want for a home defense gun. I carry a KT .380 as a BUG or when I simply cannot conceal a larger gun, but use a .40 Glock at home. You're not trying to conceal it and you probably won't be carrying it, so get a full size service pistol or revolver in a good SD caliber and stoke it with good factory hollow point rounds.

Many of us here, and I'm one of them, recommend you find out what your local police or state patrol carry and use that. If you're ever forced to use it a prosecutor will have a hard time demonizing you based on your gun/ammo choice if it's the same gun/ammo the local boys in blue carry. But, that's an argument for another thread. :D

And to whoever said that .380 would only antagonize an attacker, I thoroughly disagree with you and ask that you prove your point by volunteering to take a few rounds yourself. :neener:

[RustyShackelford]

Like a Ruger GP-100 .357magnum or maybe a SIGarms DAK model .357SIG. The HK P-2000 LEM model would be a great choice too. ;)

Most 9mmNATO, .40S&W and .357SIG rounds work much better than the .380acp and are the same size for most pistols.

Rusty

[tnieto2004]

Thats the best pistol ... FREE!!

[lawson]

i have a couple .380 handguns, that i use as backup guns, pocket guns, or "around the house" guns. if it's summer, i'm probably wearing basketball shorts, which aren't very effective with heavier guns.

the thing i like about the .380 is the practically non-existant recoil in guns that have any weight to them (my kel-tec not included). this means i can make very quick and accurate follow up shots, mozambique drills, upward rakes, etc. i read somewhere that some european police depts train to fire in three shot groups. there's no source for that, so it may just be hearsay.

in my bersa, kel-tec, and taurus I get the smoothest operation out of WWB and Hydra-Shoks. YMMV.

and if that's the only gun you have and don't plan to ever buy more, then that makes it the best gun you own.

[DWARREN123]

I believe that F.I.E. is the importer. Not high quality firearms. .380 ACP not the best round but if it is reliable and you can handle it properly it will work.
I have owned F.I.E. marked firearms before and don't have any now.
For a good .380 ACP semi I can say I really like my Bersa Duo Tone.

[The Scandinavian]

Well most of it should be good quality, it is basically a Tanfoglio GT27. That's the good news. FIE was the importer, not manufacturer.

The bad news is that after 1968 the frames were not imported, and poor quality U.S.A. made ones were used. I've no idea why they didn't make a decent frame.

Information about these pistols has been posted before on here by myself and others.

[benEzra]

.380 is a decent defensive caliber. Not stellar, but decent. Ballistically, it's not too far from .38 Special, which is certainly popular as a defensive round, and I would definitely trust it.

In the first few years of our marriage, my home-defense gun was a Bersa .380. I used Federal 90-gr Hydra-Shok ammunition, which it fed flawlessly, and it was very accurate. After several years, I eventually replaced it with a S&W 9mm (3913LS), but I always felt comfortable with the .380 while I had it.

As I mentioned, I liked the Federal 90gr Hydra-Shok and could buy it locally relatively cheaply, but some other good options would be Cor-Bon (regular, DPX, or Pow'rBall), Gold Dot, or Remington Golden Saber. If your gun is finicky about feeding JHP's, Pow'rBall has a FMJ-like profile and should feed well in anything.

Get some practice so you can shoot it accurately, and shoot enough of your chosen defensive load through it to ensure that it will function with that load. If it works reliably, go with it.

[dmarbell]

Here's a comparison of 3 HD loads from the Federal site. Each one is the Hydra-Shock JHP version. I tried to get close on bullet weights.

38 special 110 grain
380 Auto 90 grain
9mm Luger 124 grain

Velocity(fps)/Energy(ft-lbs)

Muzzle , 25 Yards
38 sp 980/235 , 943/217
380 1000/200 , 953/182
9mm 1120/345 , 1070/315

For HD, 38 sp, 9mm, and even .40 S&W and .357 mag makes more sense than the .380. I have a 9mm for CCW, and it's heavy and bulky, even for a small gun. I'm considering a Kel-Tec P3AT .380 for CCW, because it will be carried more.

For HD, I have a .44 mag cowboy gun, the 9mm (if I keep it), and assorted shotguns and rifles. If someone breaks in my house and wakes me up, and if they get through my locked bedroom door, they would face:
5 rounds of 12 ga. buck shot, 6 rounds of .44 magnum 240 grain JHPs, and 10 rounds of 115 grain 9mm JHPs.

On the street, right now because of the heft and bulk of the 9mm, I might be defenseless because the P-11 is at home in the safe.

For CCW, I believe a .380 90 grain JHP handled by a shooter with lots of training and practice is effective for self-defense.

Danny

[Lonestar]

A .380 is perfectly fine for home defense. A lot of guys get get into this "Bigger is Better" rap, but honestly a handy 4" knife can do the same things as a foot long rambo knife and it would be easier to use. Cops in Europe used .32 acp for years and New York cops use .32 S&W in the early 1900's, both are actually weaker than a .380. The .380 is just below the power of a 9mm and a .38. You will be fine, and I suggest using quality JHP.

Your selection of the FIE is bad. Someone suggest a Kel Tec, but honestly the P3at is more for Concealed carry and not home defense. I would suggest a Bersa .380. They are a larger .380, all steel, about the same price as a P3at ($200 to $250) and good guns for the money. if you cannot afford a Bersa, I would reluctantly pick a Hipoint .380 ($100) over a FIE

[MCgunner]

The Kel Tec P3AT gives the .380 a reason for being, otherwise, you can get a 9x19 just as small as most .380s. I don't rely on .380, myself, but have a small one just for the occasional time I have to resort to carrying it. I don't keep it loaded in the house, though. Smallest caliber I have in the house loaded is a .38 special loaded with 158 grain +P JHP. .380 is a little light on penetration to give me confidence in it, frankly.

[choochboost]

The 2003 edition of Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's Streetstoppers rates the .3800 JHP's much more effective than FMJ .380's.
There's a couple guys with a lot of credibility. :rolleyes:

I am not aware of any .380 JHP that is able to meet the testing protocols of the FBI and IWBA.

Dr. Gary Roberts had this to say:

"Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is not acceptable for law enforcement use and most knowledgable agencies prohibit their use. For those with no other options, choose FMJ's."

Do your homework.

[shamrock404]

Here are two sites that you can get the information on the round of your choice including the .380

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html

http://www.firearmstactical.com/index.htm

You all have a nice day and a wonderful week:)

[Lonestar]

"Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is not acceptable for law enforcement use and most knowledgable agencies prohibit their use. For those with no other options, choose FMJ's."

Do your homework.

I really hate when people throw out the Police penetration requirements and assume that a round is inadequate for home defense. Lets be honest Police need to shoot thru cars, windows and other barriers. Your average citizen will not need that type of penetration. In a Home defense situation, you need something that will not over penetrate and something that will not be DEFECTED by bone. FMJ is a POOR choice for a one stop drop, and for home defense. Most people in the military hate 9mm FMJ and consider it a poor stopper, compared to a 9mm JHP or a .45 FMJ, and you want to recommend a .380 FMJ??? You want a bigger wound channel and not alot of over penetration. The .380 JHP does expand poorly out of a short barrel like a P3at, but it does expand, and penetrates just and inch or 2 shorter than a standard 9mm JHP round.

http://www.ktrange.com/articles/a10/a10.html

[scurtis_34471]

Keep in mind that .380 105 grain Remington Golden Saber comes pretty close to the ballistics of many 9mm rounds. It fires both accurately and reliably from the Bersa Thunder, although I cannot speak for other gun. Corbon DPX is also an excellent and effective round in .380 and plain old Corbon +P JHP isn't half bad. One of the saving graces of .380 is that I can reliably rapid-fire the entire 8 round magazine of my Bersa Thunder .380 CC through center mass at 15 yards. That should be enough.

[DawgFvr]

I actually enjoy carrying my Kel Tec 38T...it is so tiny and lightweight...it just melts into my pocket. It is, however, a deep concealed, last ditch, no-where to hide, unable to run, last resort, extension of my fist. You did say Home defense right? :confused: For crying out loud...go get yourself a shotgun for HD. Get yourself a pump 12 guage...inexpensive, simple and the most effective short range, home defense weapon made this side of the universe.

[MikePGS]

If you can shoot it well then use it. However that being said, like a few other people have already recommended if its home defense your talking about, your better off selling the gun you have, or maybe even trading it to get a 12 gauge shotgun and load it up with buckshot. Even a single or double barrel might be superior. If you have a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot and you can shoot it right (which i'm guessing you can based on you saying your experienced with rifles and shotguns) then your set:)

[The Amigo]

I traded an old snubby for a Kel tec due to the 3 extra rounds and smaller and more light weight package and newer ammo out there that expands and penetrates reliably. Remington in the 102g seems to be a good round offering decent penetration and expansion. Will expand up to .57 Not comparable to a 44 mag but will kill you deader than dead if placed correctly. if you can afford something bigger for home defense and keep the .380 for concealment do so. If your limited to only that gun in particular find the best ammo you can and you will be lethal still. Remember Hitler got shot with a smaller less powerful round than the .380 and it did manage to penetrate completely thru skull. Lots of people out there in the street have been shot and ain't around to tell about it. My other gun is a .45 but I'm to lazy to carry that block since i discovered the pleasure of carrying my skinny kel tec

[Ala Dan]

F.I.E. = :barf: :scrutiny: :evil: *

Based on MY observations, only~!

[Wolfgang]

isn't F.I.E. Florida Inport and Export and not a firearms manufacturer?

The when bankrupt in 1990 or so?

[hrgrisso]

I agree that the .380 is not my first choice to carry. But don't let anyone tell you it has no place. If you have a .380 you like, get comfortable with it. I carry mine, but mine has a special role as a backup to my 9 or my 40 or my .45... Sorry but I change things up to keep it spicy (this comment in no way indicates that the author believes one should change systems frequently, as that can lead to problems in the event of needing to use the gun). So just find your guns role and let it rock. Remember, a .380 can be a fun little plinker, if a tad pricey. That's a role, so buy a few bricks of ammo (or case you verbage...) and learn yours!

[MICHAEL T]

I have one of those terrible made in Italy inported by FIE 380's. Well it is as accurate as my Bersa or PPK/S and hasn't jamed .A open slide like a Beretta has enough weight to be controlable by almost anyone in rapid fire. Like Federal and Corbon HP. I really see no big problem with it . In fact I have used as a nightstand pistol. Get over the Importer mark Its a well made pistol Mine is a Tanfoglio and as I remember they make some other pistols people here hold in high reguard. Just because FIE put their mark on it doesn't make junk.

[Lonestar]

Mike,

Consider yourself lucky. Most FIE are jam-omatics, but I know a few people who collect ravens, FIE and Titans and somehow get them to work well. The First Generation of Kel Tec P3at were also Jam-omatics, but 2nd generation are ALOT better. Hi Points are usually junk too , but some people find them reliable.

Out of all the 380 guns you can get for under $250, Bersa Thunders are the best buy. Out of the box you will have zero problems, and it is more suited for home defense.

[Exmasonite]

i have a bersa .380. It's a very fun, functional little gun. I can shoot very well with it out to 12-15 yards which is probably 2-3 times the max distance i'll ever have to use it, if necessary.
I carry it from time to time b/c of its size, esp. ankle carry. I also like the integral locking system that my XD's don't have so if i'm going somewhere where i can't carry, i feel better leaving the gun "deactivated" in the locked glovebox.
so basically, the .380 fills a niche for easy carrying. i figure any incident out in the real world will be extremely close range and i'll probably be more "reserved" than when I'm at home defending my "castle".
there, i'll be packing the service XD with 12+1 in .40 S&W or even 30 rds of the .223 if necessary (god forbid).
so, for CCW, sure. For "Home defense", pull out all the stops.

[cookekdjr]

Tanfoglio = basic, no-frills, reliable gun. They make the CZ-75 clones.
.380 = marginal defense caliber but can get the job done in a pinch.

I'd go the range one day a run a few boxes of fmj ammo through the gun. If it doesn't jam, keep it. Use the same range ammo for self-defense; that way you'll know that the gun will go bang when it has to.
Then, I'd start saving my money to get a hi-quality larger caliber gun down the road.
Just my two cents.
-David

[JShirley]

Hi, this is John. Welcome to THR. :)

A .380 is a compromise that many people like for a daily concealed carry firearm. Try yours out before using it in this role.

For home defense, either a short rifle that can be handled rapidly (especially semiautomatic, pump, or lever-action) or a shorter barreled shotgun should be chosen. If you choose the rifle, pick your ammunition carefully; there are good defensive choices in everything from pistol-caliber carbines up to high-power rifles. With a shotgun, I personally use reduced recoil slugs for social purposes, but do not go lighter than #4 buckshot.

Regards,

John

[tinygnat219]

.380 is about the bare minimum for Self-Defense in the right loads. It's also a handy round for those that suffer from arthritis or are scared of recoil. While not my favorite cartridge in the world, I do carry a P3AT as a BUG.

[boerseun]

It's a free gun - get some proven commercial brand ammo (about 100 each) and go to the range. The one that feeds and fires 100% should be your carry round. Go get a boat load of them and put about 1000 rounds through it or until you fell 100% comfortable with the handling of the weapon.

.380 is a good round. Some people say it is not as effective as a .45, but ask yourself one question....is 'n 45 effective if you don't have one or if you miss with it? Work with what you have.

Not sure about the make of gun, but it is better than tossing rocks :D

Congrats ana dhave fun!

[denfoote]

Unfortunately, in today’s world too many people think the .380 is a marginal or poor defense round. This round has been around for a very long time and does a very good job. If you do your part it will do it's part.



There is something I have always wanted to ask every time this comes up!!

When did the 9mm kurz go on strike???

Please give me the date that it stopped working??

Are contract negotiations still ongoing or are we in the midst of a lockout???

[Todesengel]

better than a stick imho but not something i would pick if i had a choice.

btw; if you don't have a choice get the best ammo available like Winchester Ranger or Remington Golden Saber.

[choochboost]

I really hate when people throw out the Police penetration requirements and assume that a round is inadequate for home defense. Lets be honest Police need to shoot thru cars, windows and other barriers.
We're talking about terminal performance, not ammo that is capable of penetrating car doors. If we were, FMJ would be the way to go anyway.

Your average citizen will not need that type of penetration. In a Home defense situation, you need something that will not over penetrate and something that will not be DEFECTED by bone.
JHP is designed to stop and not overpenetrate. But some JHP suffer from inadequate penetration.

FMJ is a POOR choice for a one stop drop, and for home defense. Most people in the military hate 9mm FMJ and consider it a poor stopper, compared to a 9mm JHP or a .45 FMJ, and you want to recommend a .380 FMJ???
One stop drop? Keep dreaming. Of course the military does not like the FMJ...it's FMJ. And Dr. Roberts is recommending FMJ for a .380, because it's a .380!

You want a bigger wound channel and not alot of over penetration. The .380 JHP does expand poorly out of a short barrel like a P3at, but it does expand, and penetrates just and inch or 2 shorter than a standard 9mm JHP round.
No argument from me on wanting the bigger wound channel. Most .380's are short barrels. If .380 JHP doesn't meet the minimum penetration standards of the FBI and IWBA, then it doesn't meet the minimum penetration standards. I refer you back to Dr. Roberts statements about .380 JHP performance above.

[obxned]

I like the .380. It's suprisingly accurate and ideal for a REALLY small CCW gun. However, it is not the best choice for home defense. Keep the .380, but buy a shotgun: it's inexpensive and effective.

[Lonestar]

Chooch....from personal experience I seen most suspects check themselves in hospitals after getting hit with FMJ rounds ranging from .32acp to 9mm, with JHP they are usually incapacitated or dead. Sorry buddy but Dr. Roberts is a flaming idiot. Bigger holes = Better results

[nemoaz]

It is almost unfathomable to me that some one would be offering recommendation to a newbie to use FMJ.

If the thing won't reliably feed a certain HP, try another. If it won't feed any HP's, ****can it. You don't need 18-24" of penetration. 10-12 will be enough to hit the critical areas on most people under most conditions.

[arthurcw]

I carry a P-3at quite frequently in the Houston heat. I don't feel like I'm doing something foolish. It's not the best caliber in the land but within its designed distance I can fire it rapidly and accurately.

If you go for it, try the Winchester Silver Tips. If they don't feed in it, then you can go to one of the odder rounds like the EFMJ or the Pow'r-balls.

Now for all you baggin on the guy for a "weak caliber" or a "crappy gun", you all know dang well it will not be his last. He'll get this itch to try something bigger and badder. We all do.

Just remember that if it doesn’t feed, is not reliable, or you can’t become proficient with it then dump it; or you’ll just run the risk of Magic Talisman Syndrome and “think” you are safe when you really aren’t.

[choochboost]

Chooch....from personal experience I seen most suspects check themselves in hospitals after getting hit with FMJ rounds ranging from .32acp to 9mm, with JHP they are usually incapacitated or dead. Sorry buddy but Dr. Roberts is a flaming idiot. Bigger holes = Better results
You're completely missing his point. Doc Roberts is a diehard 5" .45 1911 kind of guy. He understands that bigger holes create more damage. He is NOT recommending a .380, and he would never carry one. He is saying that if you are like some of the people in this thread and insist on carrying a .380, you're better off with FMJ because .380 JHP cannot reliably penetrate enough. Bigger holes don't mean anything unless the round can penetrate deeply enough to cause incapacitating damage. Glasers are a good example. They cause nasty wounds but their inability to penetrate is legendary.

The point is a .380 is not a good choice. In part, he makes his case by saying you're better off with FMJ in this caliber. Who would want to carry FMJ in a carry gun? Not you, not me, not Dr. Roberts. But if you're better off with FMJ in this caliber, it says something about the caliber. Again...not a good choice.

It is almost unfathomable to me that some one would be offering recommendation to a newbie to use FMJ.
Read the posts. Only in .380, which shows why .380 is not a good choice.

You don't need 18-24" of penetration and neither does the FBI, but it sounded better than saying that their damn accountants can't shoot and weren't smart enough to get backup while chasing two known killers known to be carrying semiautomatic rifles.
This is quite a disrespectful post towards the FBI. About their shooting ability, the agents I've known could shoot better than the average patrol cop.

For the record, FBI and IWBA testing standards do not call for 18-24" of penetration.

[the naked prophet]

I like the 9mm round because it goes fast enough to reliably expand (with some of the high quality JHP, like Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, etc.) and has enough oomph that when it DOES expand, it penetrates deep enough to reach something important, like major blood vessels or organs.

Rounds like the .32 and .22 just don't have enough oomph to both expand AND penetrate deep enough to reach something important. True, a FMJ .32 will probably go clean through somebody. And some loads can dramatically expand a JHP. But the ones that do expand stop so quickly that they don't reach the organs that need to be reached to physically incapacitate someone.

In these "mouse gun" calibers, a FMJ is your best bet because although the hole is smaller, it's deep enough to cause damage where damage is needed. In larger calibers (.38 spl, 9mm and up) it's a no-brainer to use JHP because they will expand AND penetrate deep enough to cause damage where damage is needed.

Interestingly enough, the .380 is right on the border between the two. Depending on whose definition of "deep enough" you use, a JHP may expand and penetrate deep enough to hit something vital. For a frontal between-the-ribs shot, 8 inches might be deep enough to completely penetrate the vital organs and stop short of exiting the body. However, most shots will not be perfect frontal shots. I've read that many gunfights involve people getting shot in the arms (which are held in front of the chest while using a firearm) and only those rounds which penetrate well enough to go clean through an arm AND THEN deep enough into the vitals to incapacitate will do the job. Or the shot may not be direct frontal, it may be from the side and through an arm.

We can't pick a carry load based on the "ideal" gunfight, because the ideal gunfight is the one that didn't happen. I've been in a couple of those. The ones that didn't happen. I don't seem to recall my caliber making a difference (9mm in one case, .40 in another). It is the non-ideal gunfights for which we prepare.

The recommendation is that a defensive load should both expand and penetrate 12 inches in ballistic gelatin. Anybody have a .380 load that will do this? 8 inches might be fine for a frontal shot, but 12 would be better.

The .380 is the only caliber for which I think "dutch loading" might actually be practical. The FMJ should get you the extra penetration in case your JHP doesn't reach the vitals. If you can place 2 shots COM you've covered all your bases. The problem is that you can't really find high-quality FMJ ammo (clean, low flash powder with good quality control, good crimp, sealed primers, etc). So I think a good compromise is a load that will penetrate 10 inches, such as the 90 grain Hornady XTP (http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/380acp/hor380-90xtp-b85.htm).

You do have to keep in mind that the barrel length will make a big difference. The Federal 90 grain Hydra-shok from a 3.25 inch barrel (PPK/S) (bottom of page (http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/380acp.htm)) expanded too much and only penetrated 6.7 inches while the same load from a 2.75 inch barrel (probably Kel-Tec P3AT) didn't expand as much and actually penetrated 12 inches reliably (brass fetcher (http://www.brassfetcher.com/90%20grain%20Federal%20Personal%20Defense%20Hydra-Shok.html)).

For my P3AT (when I get one this weekend) I'm going with the Federal 90 grain Hydra-shok. If I had a longer barrel, I'd go with the XTP instead or stagger one round of JHP with one round of high-quality FMJ.

[dmarbell]

.380 is 9mm short (9x17)
9mm is 9mm long (9x19)

So why is there such a big difference between the size and weight of Kel-Tec P-11 and P3-AT? Does the gun have to be larger and heavier to handle the extra powder charge in the 9mm?

Danny

[nemoaz]

Deleted after more sober reflection.

[Geno]

The .380 ACP is a great round for back-up. Use solids in winter and hollow points in summer, or solids year-round.

[choochboost]

Sorry buddy but Dr. Roberts is a flaming idiot. Bigger holes = Better results
+1.
Who's the idiot? I've already stated for the record that Dr. Roberts believes in bigger holes. If you knew anything about him or his research you would know this. Since you don't know anything about him, how are you qualified to consider him an idiot and his findings (which are not unique to him) flawed? His research stands up to scrutiny and peer review. He is a member of the IWBA and has forgotten more about terminal ballistics than you or I will ever know.

[Hokkmike]

Having fired some "snappy" .380 rounds and from doing my own "phone book" penetration tests I feel that the .380 will do the job. Obviously bigger will do the job better but if you have a pistol why buy another? (except that they are always fun to buy)

[choochboost]

Phone books don't tell you anything about what a bullet will do in human tissue even if you "feel" it will do the job. Many people, like my wife, find .380s to be more "snappy" than a 9mm.

Time for me to bow out of this one.

[deputy tom]

Seeing that most of Europe for most of the first half of the 21st century relied on .32acp pistols for military and police use I would venture a guess that a more powerfull .380 would do much the same.I stress that it must be a quality,reliable firearm in either of these chamberings but I even carry a quality,reliable .25acp on certain occaissions.I'd rather carry a .38SPL as a minimum but will do what needs to be done . I'll admit that this is for CCW and for HD I'd rather have a 12ga pump.YMMV.tom.:cool:

Also don't overlook the Makarov in 9X18 Makarov cal.Their .380acp could be another option.Excellent quality.tom.

[shadowalker]

For home defense I'd pick something bigger or use a 12 gauge with #1 or #00 buck if you have it available, the odds will be in a lot more in your favor.

Shot placement does matter but sizes is also important, heavier bullets penetrate deeper, are much less likely to deflect once they hit the target and don't rely on expansion to cause damage to the target. An unexpanded 45 ACP round is about as big as a fully expanded 9mm round but considerably heavier and will have greater penetration even at slower velocities.

Big calibers mean nothing if you can't get good shot placement but good placement means nothing if your caliber is too anemic to penetrate deep enough to stop the threat.

[glocktoberfest]

In my experience .380 FMJ feeds more reliably than JHP. YMMV.





Bingo ! , my colt mustang ll does not like JHP . I thought / hoped it was the magazine , it wasn't . ( after a new $40 mag :fire: ) I was trying to use the best defensive ammo possible . Just find a brand / type the feeds well and practice .

[tinygnat219]

Wow... all this love and not love about the .380. Folks, just realize it is what it is. It's a mediocre self-defense round. However, with current JHP loads like Federal's 90gr, and the 102 Grain Golden Saber, the .380 has entered into the realm of acceptable handgun to use. Granted, it's at the bottom of the chart and a bigger / faster / better bullet is good to use, but don't count the .380 out.

[ozwyn]

My almost-worthless .02

do your job on shot placement, and be generous with sending extra rounds into the target to be certain, and it should work fine.

Don't be ammo stingy when your life is at risk. One shot stop numbers can be argued all day with loads and situations, so don't count on just one bullet to do the job :neener:

[MCgunner]

So why is there such a big difference between the size and weight of Kel-Tec P-11 and P3-AT? Does the gun have to be larger and heavier to handle the extra powder charge in the 9mm?

Danny

Sounds like the ballistics flame war (happens all the time in more innocuous threads than this) has passed up your honest question, so I'll attempt to explain. The 9mm Luger is a MUCH more high pressure (ergo higher power) load than the .380. The SAAMI pressure limit is 18,900 cup (copper units pressure) and for the 9x19 is listed in Speer's #11 manual as a 35,700 cup pressure limit. I'm not sure the cut off for standard pressure and +P, the manual just lists the 35,700 limit for loads in this publication. I'm assuming that's a +P load because max loads in this manual are HOT!

So, you see, the pressure limit of the 9x19 far exceeds the .380. The reason is 9mm guns are delay blowback/locked breech guns for the most part. The guns are bulkier because of the locked breech designs and beefier slides to handle the higher pressures. .38o guns are simple blow backs and this is why their pressures must be kept low. This is also why there are so many pot metal junk guns built for 'em.

However, the P3AT is a locked breech gun! In fact, the colt Mustang, and a few other .380s were locked breech designs. But, this allows them to have even less slide weight and be lighter and smaller yet! Add to this, the .380 has a recommended OAL of just .984" and the 9x19 OAL is 1.169", so the 9x19 grip and magazine are going to be larger.

So, your answer is in the pressure limits of the two cartridges. All that extra pressure in the 9mm allows it to produce twice the energy levels of the .380 and shoot heavier bullets, up to 147 grains, to boot. The gun that contains all that power and extra bullet length must be larger. The smallest 9 on the market, not +P rated, but still 1 1/2 times more powerful than the .380, is the Rorbaugh. I'm not sure the dimensions, but if you can't put a Rorbaugh in your pocket, you don't have a pocket.

Also, the P11 in your question is 1" wide because it's a double stack high capacity magazine. You can get a flush fit 12 round mag for it, standard is 10 rounds. The P3AT is single stack.

[defjon]

You know for about two years the only handgun I had was a Bersa Thunder .380.

I don't live in a very dangerous or high crime area. If I HAD to use it- God forbid- I was confident in my ability to have placed all seven shots accurately, even under stress.

It was my one gun, and I got the best (IMO)- 102 grain Golden Sabers. Great big hollow points for such a little round.

I did some testing- the results were actually pretty impressive.

Internet commandos will mock this round, but a .380, to a perp, is going to feel a LOT like a 9mm. My bet is shoot a guy with both, he won't know the difference.

If it works, if you can shoot it- be done with it. Get the best ammo you can. Practice whenever you can. Just have fun. The world isn't ending and the worst case senarios don't happen 99% of the time. If you aren't living in gangland USA, your .380 will likely be all you'll need.

Remember, also. A round of mostly ANYTHING (maybe not .25...) to the head is an insta-kill. A .380 has more than enough power to splatter. It is ALL about shot placement. When the SHTF...lady luck plays a big part as well. Some guy with a little .22 will come out on top. Some experienced badass with a .45 full of jhps will bite the dust. Who knows? Shoot your gun well. Load it well. Do your part. The .380 will kill a man DEAD, and without too much trouble. Just do some tests, don't get your info from some computer.

There is a lot of heat coming off of this round. Again, I recommend golden sabers for serious use. For practice, whatever is cheapest and will feed.

Your mileage will vary, but for years my Bersa and a single mag protected me and mine, and I slept soundly, confident in both the piece and my skill with it. Not to sound like a braggart- just do the trigger time!

Now? Well now I have about a billion guns lol...it IS addictive as someone mentioned. Now I have big bore guns and lots of them, but the .380 is still around! I have 100% confidence in the round. Why? I'm firing more than one of those big 102 grain hollowpoints! So the perp is absorbing at least more than one shot, even if I missed, there are seven on tap, and now I have another mag. No worries!

[dmarbell]

MCgunner,

Thanks for the reply.

Sounds like the ballistics flame war (happens all the time in more innocuous threads than this) has passed up your honest question, so I'll attempt to explain.


Now I have another question regarding .380 ballistics, perceived or actual. FMJs penetrate and JHPs expand, each having it's own strengths and weaknesses within the caliber. Would it not be possible to load alternating rounds in a magazine, that is, one FMJ, one JHP, one FMJ, etc? Assuming the P3AT, or other .380, would handle the feeds, four shots would give you two penetrations and two expansions. Best of both worlds?

That brings me to my gun, a P-11. Why can't I load alternating FMJ and JHP loads in the 9mm? One of the knocks on 9mm is that FMJs or even ball bullets over penetrate, and JHPs might lack penetration.

I have been thinking about buying a 9mm revolver so I can buy one type of ammo. Now the alternating rounds has me thinking. I'm sure the feed issue will raise it's ugly head in this discussion regarding semi-autos, but it should go out the window with moon clips in a 9mm revolver. Five or six rounds of alternating penetrating and expanding ammo?

And speaking of the feed issue, if a P-11 feeds a magazine of FMJs fine, and a magazine of JHPs fine, should it not feed a mixed load fine? The gun doesn't know and shouldn't care which round is coming next.

Danny

[p35]

FIE was an importer and the quality of their guns depends on the maker. I think they were once the importers of the Walther PPK, for example. Don't generalize too much about their quality; try the gun out and see if it's reliable with hollowpoint ammo.

[40jjb]

I agree there are nice little guns out there for this cal.. I recomend a P3AT Kel tec, Small enough to carry in any situation and reliable. In this cal. I recomend Fiocchis FMJ, Gold Dots, Cor bon. Practice and be safe..:)