[P95Carry]

I guess everyone would feel that a quick draw is important ... getting the piece ''into play'' pretty damn quick. Something I daresay we all practice.

But .... just how important is that ... compared with actual competance when firing? IMO quick presentation is important ... sure .. but of little value if when presented the ''operator'' cannot ''deliver''.

My draw is not fast by many standards but ... i place great import on how the gun comes out .. by which I mean .. it's not the speed with which the gun is outa the holster but .. the speed with which you have a hold that allows a useful first shot........ as against a miss!

Maybe the IDPA guys have this buttoned up but ... the rest of us? How much importance do you place on quick presentation?? I'd rather take that smigeon of extra time and make shot #1 really count ....

[fastbolt]

You'll get no argument from me ... ;)

[WonderNine]

Makes me think of somebodies sig line, "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final."

:cool:

[Boats]

I like the other well known saying, "Smooth is fast."

[WhoKnowsWho]

I think the draw comes secondary to your perception and interpretation of your surroundings and situation.

It's not very helpful if you can draw fast if you don't even know something is coming.

I'd much rather be able to draw at an okay speed, aim fast, and be observant of what's going on. But that all goes without saying anyways.

[Blueduck]

Pretty much with WhoKnowsWho on this except the "goes without saying" part. Course maybe I was just slow on that ;)

It kind of surprised me in FATS training that the difference in time frame of when various people percieved the threat and then finally decided to draw was so huge as to make the actual speed of the draw almost a moot point in most scenarios.

Another major point I got out of it was that if you let your video "Opposition" get thier hand on a gun (in seat coushion, behind back, in pocket etc..) before you already had your gun out and ready you were in a world of hurt regardless of speed. Basically the really fast draw folks *only* got shot 2-4 times before they got a round off as opposed to the slower drawing folks who got hit 5-6 times before pulling the trigger.

Reaction is slower than action, just an unhappy fact of life when playing defense:uhoh:

[sanchezero]

The most important factor in the pace of the draw is gonna be the other guy.

If he's 50' away with a baseball bat strolling towards you as he's describing the beating he plans on throwing your way...well, go ahead, be leisurely.

If you believe the numbers tho, most of these uberviolent moments happen up close and you're taken by suprise (otherwise, you probably wouldn't be there, eh?).

In this case you gotta act fast, and it may not be the gun that comes first. You may need to 'go to' barehanded to give yourself the space to use your gun, beat feet, or rip off their arm and beat them into oblivion with it.

When you do get to your gun, it'll likely be one handed and you'll be using it like a stapler. So its a good idea to spend some time practicing your draw with those conditions in mind.

:)

[mete]

It isn't the first shot but the first good hit that counts. This involves many things. For example shooting from the hip is faster but only slightly. Bringing the gun to eye level and aiming is slower but hit probability DOUBLES.

[Mikul]

If you're ever in a situation where you'll need to draw your gun, you'll never be able to get it out of the holster quick enough. I certainly can't think of a situation where I wish I could have drawn the gun slower.

This may become obsessive in most situations. Drawing your gun in 0.8 seconds instead of 0.7 when you hear a noise downstairs is inconsequential. If you're scuffling with an armed cretin who already has a gun on you, that extra 0.1 second is going to feel like an eternity. Imagine someone with a knife coming toward you and tell me how fast your draw should be.

A for shooting from the hip... if you can make the hit at the distance your attacker is at, take it from the hip. Maybe it's 0.1s faster. Why not use that time? Practice will allow you to make hits from the hip at common self-defense distances. 7-10 yards is not a difficult thing to do. If you need to shoot two shots because you miss with the first one, you need more practice and are better off, in a life threatening situation, to fire from a more traditional position.

[Erik]

"The ''draw''factor ...... just how critical?"

Fairly critical.

The goal in a defense situation is to place accurate rounds on target as fast as possible from, in this case, your pistol.

If you're not practiced at drawing your pistol, you may never get to the part where you place accurate rounds on target.

That said, I wouldn't worry too much if your draw is slower than you'd like to see it. Just keep practicing, and set realistic goals. Eventually it will all tie in together.

[Johnny Guest]

A couple of small points brought up at Gunsite, yea, these many years afore - - -

"Disregard FAST until you develop smoothness. Practice the draw stroke slowly, as distinct movements. AFTER you learn the movements, work on blending them together into one more-or-less smooth, continuous action. Smooth is the absence of wasted motion. Concentrate on smoothness at first, even if it seems slow. Only then do you build rapidity, never sacrificing smoothness. You can think much more quickly than you can move. You can think, "One, two, three, four, five," while you're executing the stroke, all blended into one movement. AFTER you attain smoothness, the rapidity of the draw and dry fire comes almost automatically. Smooth is fast."

We all want burn powder, hear the noise, and feel the power. In training for self defense, maybe we get onto that part too soon . . . .

Another point which still lingers - - -
"You draw your pistol frequently when not intending to shoot. You must clean it occasionally, press check the chamber between match stages, remove and secure it in the evening. Make EVERY draw a quick draw, usually without touching the trigger, of course. If you train yourself to withdraw the sidearm slowly and deliberately, you may inadvertently do so on the rare occasion when you truly need to fire it."

And - - -
"The quicker you can get on target, the more time you have to look for a way NOT to shoot. And, if you must, the more time you have to aim and press the trigger."

I can think of three distinct occasions when a rapid presentation obviated the necessity to shoot. The balance of power shifted so drastically that my opponent (thankfully) realized he could NOT make good his intent. In each instance, there was a certain calmness, knowing that I was in control. I DID shake a bit afterwards, but at the moment, I was ready to take care of business. Were my "fine motor skills" up to my own Absolute Best level? I doubt it, but they were certainly "sufficient unto the day."

The need for fast draw is a seldom thing, granted, but occasionally one can serve you almost as well as "tactical awareness."

;)
Best,
Johnny

[CWL]

What everyone already says about practice and smoothness. Speed comes from this.

IDPA and IPSC won't help at all since you are already 'going hot' by the time you are there. It's the practice beforehand that develops a good defensive handgunner.

[P95Carry]

I like yer thinking Johnny ..... thx.:)

[Edward429451]

Johnnie nailed it head on. Smooth is the absence of wasted motion. Dont go for speed, go for smoothness. When you get it down smooth, speed comes by itself.

I drove my wife nuts in the early years, practice drawing around the house (dry). Especially the slow motion draws which look more unnatural than faster draws (analysing the draw & movements, etc..) but it paid off. After 5000 or so practice draws at home and its getting pretty quick, head for the range and slow it down again for live fire practice. ("Who's the nut in slow motion over there?!"):D Over time I got reasonably adequete. I try not to kid myself that I'm world class which'd be a mistake, but I think I could hold my own.

I do think fast smooth presentation is fairly critical, like suggested, it may save shots fired at all. When me & my friend was attacked by a dog and I had to put one in the grass to turn the dog, my friend told me later that it was like the gun grew in my hand, he never seen me draw. Smoothness creates muscle memory too. Jus' keep practicing...

[El Tejon]

Second Mr. Guest's comments. We come from the same place.:)

[SunBear]

A lot of good tactical advice. I think it was the Col. or Ross Seyfried who said, "Only hits count and You can't miss fast enough to catch up." Happy trails.

[22luvr]

"Be quick but don't hurry."

My P32 was the fastest thing from my pocket to firing that I've ever owned. It never hung up and I can never remember fumbling it either.

[Andrew Wyatt]

The draw facilitates being accurate. If you do not get the gun out and presented smartly, you will not be able to take the shot.


High draw speeds are needed more when you have to shoot at longer ranges, because you need more time in the accuracy phase of the shooting to ensure a hit.

[Double Naught Spy]

Drawing quickly and accurate first shots on target don't have to be counter-productive to one another. There is no reason you can't draw quickly and hit accurately.

Johnny Guest notes that smooth is the absence of wasted motion. I would take it a couple steps further I think. You can be very smooth, but still not be efficient in the draw, and as such have wasted motion. I think basically he is associating smooth with being efficient, but being efficient will not necessarily mean being smooth.

Regardless of minced words, when you do have a smooth draw without wasted motion that you have done hundreds of times, you will find that speed and accuracy seem to magically develop as well. This is an ideal to strive for.

I only know of one case off hand where reaction beat action and it all came down to the draw. A common theme is that action always beats reaction. That is a great concept in the framework of two folks both performing comparable tasks with comparable abilities under comparable conditions, then it will be true. Of course if action ALWAYS beat reaction, then it would be impossible to block an incoming punch or slap, but that is exactly what people do on a regular basis in hand-to-hand combat of all sorts. Reaction can beat action such that the full time to reaction (inclusive of time to identify the threat, determine a reaction, implement reaction to as needed) occurs in less time than required for the action to be completed.

Getting back to the draw and reaction, this was on one of those Discover/TLC shows on dangerous jobs or crime or something like that. So,a guy enters a store wearing his motorcycle helmet which gets the attention of the clerk. The clerk moved to close to the register where he had a gun under the counter. As the bandit approached the counter, he acted first and attempted what was a very distance inefficient roundhouse sort of draw that the clerk was able to parry with his off hand and produce the weapon from under the counter with his strong hand. Shots were exchanged and neither was hit. Both participants could have benefited greatly with proper practice.

In looking at the video, the bandit actually was fairly smooth in his draw, but horribly inefficient. I would guess that between the bandit's stride and round house draw arc that the gun probably actually traveled close to 5 feet from start to end. Visually, that is a fairly long distance to see the gun traveling. The clerk produced his gun from under the counter in very jerky motions that were not smooth, but were more efficient in terms of distance travelled and time elapsed. The clerk had to grab the gun and pull it backwards about a foot before changing direction and thrusting the gun forward while elevating. The gun probably traveled no more than 3 feet. Through REACTION and non-smooth but a fairly distance efficient draw, the clerk beat the bandit's smooth first ACTION but grossly inefficient roundhouse draw. Not only that, but the clerk was multi-tasking, parrying with one hand and drawing with the other.

[P95Carry]

DNS .. thx for that ...... you make some excellent points.:)

[Edward429451]

High draw speeds are needed more when you have to shoot at longer ranges, because you need more time in the accuracy phase of the shooting to ensure a hit.

Thats a good point also. It sounds backwards until you think about it a little bit, then it makes perfect sense.:scrutiny: :D

[BB93YJ]

I think it was Wyatt Earp, or one of his famous contemporaries, stated that in a gunfight, " I take my time in a hurry "

[AirPower]

Unless you're in a gunfight, drawing first will often stop the other guy from drawing his....hopefully that'd be deterrent enough so you dont' have to shoot.

[only1asterisk]

Drawing a handgun from concealment can be difficult enough that some thought and practice should be invested. Watching someone do it under stress for the first time can be comical. I think however it should be enough for most people to be comfortable. Time spent trying to shave a 1/10 of a second off your draw stoke can be better spent loading practice ammo, at the range, or with your family. Unless your a world class pistol racer or fast draw champ it just isn't worth the investment.


Dave

[355sigfan]

Usually the first person to cut meat wins. Accuracy is final but if it takes you half a second longer to hit the A zone than it does for him to hit you in the C zone the argument is mute. I Stress accuracy to my guys and gals on the firing line but speed is also stressed. You can't miss fast enough to win but you can also waste a lot of precious time trying to make the perfect shot.

You should always practice your presentation. You should also aways if possible draw your weapon prior to firing it and when your done shooting your group or exercise you should scan and re holster in the revese steps of your presentation. This builds muscle memory. Go to a good school like Front Site or Thunder Ranch and it will make more sence.
PAT

[GitSome45]

355sigfan,

Spelling...

"mute" = "MOOT" (meaning inconsequential or without effect - "doesn`t matter" )

"sence" = "SENSE"

(Don`t you just hate it when people nitpick... :D )

Just heckling ya...

Howard

P.S. I know you from TFL...;)

[only1asterisk]

By all means draw your pistol before you fire it! You wouldn't want to take a divot out of your butt!

Dave

[Blackhawk]

I don't practice drawing then firing. I practice drawing AND firing, as in: one smooth continuous action. The final release of the trigger is conditioned upon target acquisition, and that's where the threat re-evaluation occurs. The more practice, the faster the action.

It's sad to see guys at the range practicing drawing then going through target acquisition as two discrete actions. :(

[only1asterisk]

Mr./Ms. Blackhawk,

Could you please describe that process again? Exactly when does your finger touch the trigger? When do you start taking up slack in the trigger? I don't want to misunderstand, but it sounds as if you talking about training to finish pulling the trigger as you finish your draw. This seems like a BAD set of muscle memory. While I'm sure that you have found this works well for you, do you think it's right for everyone? I mean, the average person that carries concealed is likely to take it seriously, get some training, practice occasionally. But under stress, if I understand your technique correctly, would it not seem likely that they may pull the trigger unintentionally? Before they get on target? Maybe they automatically pull the trigger before they finish identifying their target and shoot someone they don't intend to.
Maybe you’re in a public place and the BG that you intend to shoot is putting his hands up as you draw. Your draw is a conditioned action that is already underway, and is completed before you can react to the changing situation. Since you practice drawing and firing as one combined act you automatically fire at the completion of your draw. What people around you see is you putting a hole in someone who is trying to give up. Granted, this is unlikely, but as many people are fond of saying on this forum, most armed confrontations are resolved without a shot being fired.

Negligent discharge is so easy, I think most people are better served by keeping their finger off the trigger until the very last.

Dave


http://www.ops-se.com/Videos/Negligence.mpg

[themic]

personally i know i'm sacrificing draw speed for concealability with my curent holster... but i find that taking a step backward with my right foot as i draw speeds everything up considerably. this is always a tough balancing act, speed vs conceal, especially in the summertime.

[TheMariner]

I always thought draw, while important... was often over emphasized... Too many people think that this is like old wild west shootouts or something else from teh movies...

Focus.

[Blackhawk]

Dave, I've described my draw in painstaking detail over the years both on TFL and here.

Obviously, my finger can't touch the trigger until the gun is out of the holster, and it doesn't until the muzzle is coming up onto the target. In many thousands of dry fires, LaserBlaster, and live fires practicing my draw, I've never had anything but the hammer falling exactly when it was supposed to, but that's because all my muscles act in harmony -- sort of like sticking a landing. My finger is never allowed to act on its own -- also a skill needed for typing....

I'm not going to parse and comment on your comments as you can yourself to see that most of them are non-sequiturs, but one of the rules is don't draw until you need to fire. Before the gun is ever touched, the decision has been made, and there will be no time for a perp to raise his hands. However, the fact remains that MY final decision point is when the gun is precisely aimed at the target, which leaves me with the opportunity to NOT fire.

That's also an important part of practice. Draw, but don't fire.

My technique isn't for everybody, and it certainly shouldn't be adopted without a LOT of snap cap practice -- but nothing about gun handling should be adopted without a lot of safe practice.

And that's the biggest problem. People with guns don't practice enough.... :(

The negligence video you linked to is a study in incompetence all by itself. The Las Vegas Metro cop was woefully incompetent in every aspect of gun handling. She not only continuously swept the subduing officer and perp before firing, her gun was aimed at the ground in front of the perp when it fired. Her finger should NEVER have been on the trigger!

[only1asterisk]

BH,

I'm sure your an accomplished pistol shot and practice consistantly. I'm also certain that you have made a decision to use this technique after much thought. I have only had the benefit of this board for a few days, and I did look through your old post to try and find a more complete discription of you draw. I was unable to read any post more than a couple of months old. As someone who has undoubtably done his/her homework, I'm sure you know that under stress all but the most intensive training is badly degraded. I'm also certain you know that fine muscle control (such as that over your finger trigger) is also badly degraded under stress. Knowing your facts you have made your choice and hopefully train accordingly. I have also examined the facts for myself and together with my experience have come to a different conclusion. I have decided for myself that it better to draw now and decide enroute with a slight (but distinct) pause (in training) before the engaging the trigger. I believe, that under stress this pause will be slight or even eliminated. I believe that any additional risk I incur is outweighed by my obigation to protect those around me. This is certainly a personal choice and one that is grounds for friendly disagreement.

To be complete, when I practice firing from a retention position I eliminate this step, assuming as you do that the decision has already been made and economy of motion is paramount. But this is NOT sighted fire. I hold the this to seperate.

Also the link at the bottom was not intended to be directed at you. It is now part of my signature. Any further information on this incident would be helpful, as I am curious and can find no reference to it.

I apologize for the haste in my reply.

Dave