[P95Carry]

Will it always win out??

I wonder .. and have no way of knowing .... maybe hope I never will but I wonder. Practice all you like but will that guarantee success.?

I think overall it will ... but that lil corner of doubt exists.!

[faustulus]

Let's put it this way: you (all of us) better hope it does. :)

[sanchezero]

It kinda depends on your perspective I think.

Will 'muscle memory' ever stop the degrading of skill under stress? No.

There are other factors, tho. To develop muscle memory takes many, many, many proper repetitions. In theory, this should radically increase your skill level. When your skill is top of the line you can afford to give up some of it in most cases.

Another factor, is that this repetetive training often induces an meditative like state. When these motions are practiced under stressful conditions they often have somewhat of a calming effect, reducing the stress.

It's a fact that very complex actions can be performed under life and death stress with proper training.

Of course, proper training is the key. Fight bad habits.

:cool:

[lazhuward]

There was a Fox TV show I watched a couple of days ago called "World's Wildest Police Shootouts" or something. I was struck by how many participants in the shootouts fell down or came very close to loosing their balance. It's not because they got shot: it's just because they're so frantic and panicky that they can't get their feet under them.

I've also read that a fair amount of people who experience combat for the first time, as LEOs or members of the armed forces, poop their pants when they come under fire.

It seems like when you're in extreme fear for your life, your body occasionally does weird things. Walking and controlling your bowels are simple muscular tasks that we learn at an early age and practice every day.

Training helps and people can and do function at a high level under stress. However, if people sometimes have trouble with the most basic bodily functions under stress, I suspect that there's no guarantee that muscle memory will always save the day.

[sw442642]

Muscle memory is just a highly practiced routine that you need to recall at the time of action. You can just forget it like when something is on the tip of your tongue. I remember in high school when I had to make an important broad jump. Obviously, I knew the technique but on this one, I went blank and jumped like a floppy chicken for about three feet. Just forgot how to do it.

[Leibster]

One variable is what type of muscle memory? There are three general types of muscular movement; Gross, fine and complex. The other variable is how much stress?

Under stress, gross motor skills are enhanced, while complex and fine motor skills degrade as the stress level increases.

If you are practicing a technique that overwhelmingly involves gross motor skills (using the large muscle groups, and doing so symmetrically, so that both sides of your body are basically doing the same thing), the likelihood of you being able to pull it off under stress is much higer. I'm not saying that non-gross motor skill techniques (like the Weaver stance) won't work under stress, just that your ability to perform them will predictably degrade if your stress level (and heartbeat) increase dramatically.

Weaver proponents would point out that it's therefore very important to keep a level head and stay calm. I agree with them, but since gunfights are inherently unpredictable affairs, I choose to practice with techniques (like the Isosceles stance) that will work even if I screw up and allow myself to get scared.

lazhuward had a really good point about keeping a proper stance while under stress. People often say that it's not important to worry about stance, that your feet will figure out what to do. But practicing a good, solid-yet-mobile stance can make a big difference in surviving a fight.

--Leibster

[P95Carry]

Thx for the inputs ... having read thru I have realized that in fact a critical factor would be, stress speed of onset.

By that I mean ...

On the one hand -- if a ''situation'' presents very suddenly and a very fast decision has to be made ... then one might operate almost in a pre-stress state .. due to time needed for adrenalin to rise in level etc. This could well permit good instinctual and fairly well controlled response ...... going onto ''auto-pilot'' for want of a better expression.

On the other hand ..... there could be the ''slow build up'' situation ... such that from onset of perceived threat to actual action, might take a coupla minutes ....... this could be for instance time hovering behind cover, time trying to ''talk the situation down'' ... whatever. This I think could lead to much greater loss of fine skills ... to the extent that one might even (heaven forbid) .... start suffering the dreaded shaking knees.

I'd as soon not encounter either.

[9mmepiphany]

1. muscle memory will win out during a stress situation...

you won't even have a memory of how you got into the grip, stance, sight picture or body position you end up in. the thing that wins over muscle memory is natural instinct.

even if you never trained to lower your head to align your eye with the sights...under stress you will. just trust me on this, i've seen it time and again over a 20+ year career

2. will this always be suscessful ?

i doubt it, suscess is not solely dependant on training. training, and hence muscle memory, only give you a better chance of sucess. the biggest factor is luck

[Leibster]

P95Carry,

I think the time frames you wrote of are exactly backwards.

The human fear response is nearly instantaenous--it take just a small fraction of a second for biological changes to take effect.

On the other hand, the longer one is dealing with the stress, the more likely he is to acclimate to it. So a shocking situation that requires a sudden, immediate reaction is much more likely to trigger a heavy "fight or flight" response than is a situation where there is time to adapt.

In other words, a SWAT Team member that has been briefed and had time to adjust to his situation is before a raid is far less likely to be affected by stress symptoms than the same officer performing a traffic stop where he suddenly and unexpectedly finds himself under fire.

Hope that makes sense.

--Leibster

[Johnny Guest]

Regardless of whether or not the outcome will be PERFECT in a super-stress situation, you are far better off if you have practiced than if you have not.

Muscle memory is not channelized by a few dozen repetitions - - Last I read indicates that some 1500 to 2000 reps are required to make a given action automatic. NOT instinctive, but retty much reflexive. You can condition reflexes, not instincts.

This is one reason I dispair when I see guys practicing "defensive shooting" on the range, and all they do is get ready, load up, and fire off a gunload at moderate to raplid speed without drawing, or even coming from low ready position. Yes, we must learn sight picture and trigger control, but once that is done, the survival techniques shouldn't be neglected.

This stuff is the topic of many articles and training courses. A vast oversimplification is the old saying, "practice like you'll play." You'll not know in advance what the opponent is gonna do, but you can have a repitoire already programmed into your mind and muscles. Another reason why participation in IDPA and other halfway realistic matches can be good survival training. It is best if you already know the manual of arms and weapons operation under stress, and not have to figure it out as you go along.

Best,
Johnny

[jdege]

I've talked to cops who were involved in fights where they forgot they even had a gun, let alone how to use it.

[P95Carry]

Leibster ..... I take your points .... yeah maybe I was partly back to front.

I got to thinkin ... how one reacts to a shock effect ... sorta like someone comin up behind and shouting ''Boo'' .... sudden reaction and quickening of pulse etc - and on other hand - yeah maybe ''time to aclimatize'' could be beneficial - ''psyching up'' perhaps.... for some.

I guess I can see both my reaction set and yours to be honest .. and this will i think depend on individual's psyche, training, practice ..... overall ''coolness'' if you will, under pressure.

This makes me think yet again, when we have threads like ''do you scan 360º '' .... we should all be very alert .... so as to better have a chance avoiding the extreme surprise...... which we all I hope and would like to think, will not happen.

[Double Naught Spy]

Will "muscle memory" always win out over stress? Of course not. There are too many factors that can intervene and cause problems, many of which will boil down to your mental template and the given situation and just how good your training really was. Not all muscle memory is good, proper, or necessarily applicable to a given situation.

Training and muscle memory only serve to increase your chances of reacting properly to a given threat situation, but do not guarentee success at all. More over, some folks manage to cognitively over rule their muscle memory responses.

When folks talk about changes under stress, such as Leibster, what is normally being referred to is the body's reaction to the adrenaline dump started becuase of a perceived fear or threat. That is the fight or flight response and sure enough the fine skills go away to a certain extent. While the brain may call for the adrenaline dump as soon as a problem is perceived, it may take just a couple of seconds to several seconds before the adrenaline dump starts affecting your system. The dump travels via the bloodstream and so is not instantaneous as would electrical impulses transmitted via the nervous system.

I always figured that if something went wrong, it would be a whole lot better for me if it happened quickly and that I could be well into my muscle memory response before the adrenaline has kicked in. No doubt that if there is a long buildup or I am having to wait for an opportunity, the response will be heavily influenced by the adrenaline.

[P95Carry]

I always figured that if something went wrong, it would be a whole lot better for me if it happened quickly and that I could be well into my muscle memory response before the adrenaline has kicked in. No doubt that if there is a long buildup or I am having to wait for an opportunity, the response will be heavily influenced by the adrenaline.DNS .... yeah, that is very much my original premise ...... and I share that view for the most part.

[Tom C.]

Under stress, like combat, you will fight like you train. If you have trained properly, you will probably respond with the proper response. Military training is designed to provide sufficient repetitions to ensure proper response to the situation when the higher mental functions turn to mush. Red Flag was designed to get fighter pilots through the first couple of days of a war like the Mid-East war of 1973. Read what Ayoob said about the Norwall, CA (I think) shooting. The cop tried to put the empties from his revolver in his pocket as he was reloading, just as he did at the range. Got him killed.

[ACP]

I will try and find the link to this old The Firing Line thread, which I printed out and kept. It was an article by Darren Laur titled "The Anatomy of Fear and How it Relates to Survival Skills Training."

To summarize his 16 page post, all training for combat "must" be gross motor based. At 115 heartbeats per minute, most people lose fine complex motor skills, such as finger dexterity. At 145 bpm, most people lose complex motor skills, i.e. doing three things at once. In the stress of combat, heart rates can go from 70 to 220 bpm in less than half a second.

I'll briefly summarize the results of 98 shooting scenarios in spontaneous and non-spontaneous events that took place at about 10 feet:

*binocular sighting (both eyes open)
*one-handed shooting
*Isosceles stance (squared to the target)

What I gained from reading and re-reading this is to train for GROSS motor skills and to practice ONE technique again and again. That's why I'm think of switching from a 1911 to a revolver or a Glock, to compliment my S&W 642 that I mostly carry. Draw weapon, acquire sights, press trigger. Repeat as necessary.

[Leibster]

ACP,

I found a link to the article you referenced. You can find it at:

http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/anatomy.html

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but it looks very similar in content to an excellent book, "Sharpening the Warrior's Edge" by Bruce Siddle. He seems to use several of the same sources. Fascinating stuff.

It's interesting how modern research is helping to effectively explain what makes techniques effective. What many people have intuitively felt for years is explained nicely in Siddle's book and this article.

I spent several years in the Israeli military, and all our techniques were based on gross motor skills, whenever possible. No doubt the creators of these techniques didn't know about the relationship to gross motor skills and stress, but they did take the time to interview many, many people in post-incident debriefings and look for similarities. Techniques were created, and continually refined based on the way the majority of combatants reacted under stress. What evolved was a skill set that comprised gross motor skills almost entirely.

--Leibster

[Harold Mayo]

I have not been involved in any shootings but have drawn a firearm twice in self-defense (sort of). Both occasions were burglaries.

The first time was when I came home to a rental house that I was living in over a summer in college. The burglar alarm was going off and a couple of lights were on. It was in a rural area. I should have driven off and let the deputies handle it and that would have been the end of it. Instead, I stupidly got my mag lite and 1911 and did some house-clearing as I had been taught. It was stressful and STUPID because I was alone, had no body armor, no long gun, and the police were on their way (and there I was in the house with a gun). HOWEVER...my technique was perfect. I remember the entire thing vividly even ten years later. The movement, cornering, observation, Harries grip, etc. were all perfect...better, actually, than what I had done in training. It was just stupid that I did it in the first place. Fortunately, I had the house cleared and had the gun holstered and was standing outside by my car when the cops arrived.

Second time was also perfect. First night in my new house several years ago and I was awakened out of my sleep by the faint chirping of the alarm system that happened any time a door or window was opened. Just two beeps from the kitchen area at the other end of the house but, somehow, I heard it in my sleep and identified it as being "wrong". Everything kicked in at once and I got out of bed, got the nightstand gun (P7M8) and Surefire and went rapidly through the darkened house with the P7 at the ready. Difficult to explain the layout of the house but there could have been no one any further than the kitchen area itself in the incredibly short span of time that it took for me to come to full wakefulness, arm myself, and get there. Again I have a vivid memory of it and again I performed well. The guy was on his way back OUT of the house as I hit him with the light. I don't know if he was already on his way out or if he got a brief glimpse of a naked man with a squeeze-cocker (heh) and a Surefire coming after him and decided to flee.

Did I shoot in either occasion? No, but I did plenty of things that I was TRAINED to do rather than something that was instinctive and I WAS under high stress at the time. Would I have continued to perform well if someone started shooting at me or if I were actually wounded? Don't know and I'm glad that I didn't find out but I think that I would have been fine.

I am a big believer in muscle memory as well as conditioned responses MENTALLY. Then again, some people will have different instincts, too. Training may not "stick" in some people as well as others. Regardless, though, don't you think that repetition WILL lock in responses?

On a slight tangent, I fully believe in sighted fire AND instinctive shooting. Sighted fire WILL become instinctive after enough repetitions. The WWII combatatives guys who are Applegate fans are big proponents of point shooting but you have to remember that Applegate was tasked with developing a system of training people, some of whom knew nothing about firearms, that could be effective with (sometimes) only a few hours (or less) of training. You can give someone competence in sighted shooting techniques in a few hours time but you won't make them an expert. You can easily teach someone to point a handgun and hit a target at 10 feet with it quickly in a few hours and that is all that they were really required to be able to do.

Apologies for the long and rambling post. It's late and I'm a little loopy.:neener:

[arinvolvo]

There is only one way to find out...Holster up, load a clip, and rack one home....then have your friend jump out and attack you...see if you can shoot him.

No, seriously...dont. That was totally a joke.:scrutiny:

[Island Beretta]

Mental state and expectation is el numero uno!! If you couple this with sound training then you are well on your way.. I know poor shots who have won gunfights because they believed in himself and was mentally prepared. Myself having been in 'situations' I have never been conscious of stance assumed or grip used during the gunfight. I can tell you every detail about the attacker though as everything related to this person suddenly becomes crystal clear and is moving in slow motion.

I also notice that if I am caught off-guard then my adrenaline goes through the roof due to the surprise and mental unpreparedness. Now research shows that going around in a high state of alert is not healthy but you don't have to. Just accept that anything can happen, especially to you and have a basic course of action defined to reduce 'hesitation'. As the great samurai Musashi said 'to hesitate is to die'.

[Soap]

How about this little test: Take me, who has played guitar for 8 years, and take anyone on this thread. Then someone can take a long needle and poke it into our flesh repeatedly while one of us tries to play Mozart's Turkish March, which one of us is going to sound better?

[P95Carry]

More very interesting reading for which thx. Another thought I had ...... agreeing that it will do no one any good being in condition yellow all time ...... I reckon safest thing to work on is ....... ''Don't assume'' ..... and just accept that yes ...... ''it can happen to me'' ....... no stress, just no complacency either.

[Leibster]

ACP,

I just finished reading that paper that you mentioned. I just wanted to say thank you-it was a really great read, and I learned a lot of new stuff!

--Leibster

[ACP]

Here it is. Hope it works:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=121495&highlight=Laur

If not, go to www.thefiringline.com (the site is now inactive, but you can do searches) and do a search for "Laur." Most all his posts are well worth the reading.

P.S. Just don't click on the link at the top of the post. Go down the thread a little bit, and he posts the entire article there. His other posts on edged weapons and "the way of the street" are also worth reading.

[snubby]

Remember: anticipation gives muscle memory a head start, while surprise increases the stress level. Always stay in Condition Yellow!