[Alan Fud]

http://www.blackcatsystems.com/science/radprod.html ... ... They may not be quite so safe. I decided to place one on a pancake GM detector. The readings went from 55 CPM background to about 210 CM. I then removed the actual glass tube (with the tritium and phosphors) from the plastic holder, and the reading jumped to about 690 CPM. I suspect that the betas are hitting the glass, and creating x-rays, with a peak energy of 18 keV. The plastic absorbs most, but not all, of them ... ... found the above when doing general reserch on radiation. What does everyone think?

I carry one in an inside the waist belly band right up against my skin -- wonder if I might be slowly killing myself.

[Jim March]

Well you didn't post the picture of the Tritium source he was actually testing:

http://www.blackcatsystems.com/pics/rad/glowx4.jpg

If those are key rings at the top of the pic, then a), these are WAY bigger than gunsight tritium vials (by a factor of 4+) and b), gunsight tritium vials are mostly surrounded by metal, instead of plastic.

I would assume both factors make a difference.

[madhatta]

I am exposed to some radiation sources due to my job- so, I have taken great pains in researching the topic. We are all exposed to natural and man-made background radiation everyday. The nite sights on any gun are of absolutely no concern-- same goes for the glowing dials of many watches. If you really want to see a detector get pegged, go put any camping lantern's mantle up next to it. I am not sure of the how and why of this, but mantles are pretty 'hot'. Another interesting item is the loudly colored plate ware from the 70's- "Fiestaware" it was called. The coatings on these have uranium in them, and they are 'screaming'... but these and many other examples are nothing to get alarmed about.

[buzz_knox]

I'm an idiot. I meant to say "no, they're not" and completely turned the question around in my head. Night sights don't emit enough radiation to be of a concern.

[LAWDOGKMS]

I was a Radiographer for 10 yrs..

I worked with live radioactive sources, some of them up to 150 curies, which is 885 RAD/HR @ 1 foot. Enough to melt the skin off your fingers in seconds..

That said, I was very safe and received less than 200 mr measured over 10 yrs from the radiation work.

Normal background radiation in nature is 360 mr/yr per person..

You will get this dose from the sun, antique vaseline glass, lantern mantles, spark plugs from the 40's, thoriated tungsten tig welding rods, luminous watches, computer monitors, smoke detectors, brick building etc etc etc........

In my opinion, these keychains are not any more dangerous than sunbathing........

[Double Naught Spy]

While tritium is radioactive, you have to understand that not all radioactivity is the same. Tritium gives off weak beta particles that apparently cannot penetrate the skin. Where one gets into trouble is by introducing tritium to the interior of the body. This can be through breathing in tritium gas or drinking tritiated water.

Being cautious around radioactive materials is a good thing. In the case of tritium gas inside keyrings, watches, and weapons sights, there should be no risk short of breaking open one of the vials and breathing the gas contained inside.

See the following sources for more information...


http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:vinPdHqDx1wJ:www.srs.gov/general/news/newpub-rel/factsheets/het.pdf+tritium+radiation&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www.epa.gov/radiation/radionuclides/tritium.htm

http://www.isolite.com/abouttritium.htm

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/EHS/prod/researchlab/radlaser/manual/appendices/safety/h3.htm

[Handy]

FYI, Every time you fly at 30,000 feet (like on an airliner), it's like getting a chest xray.

I'm mainly pointing out that this is small potatoes compared to all the other radiation sources you are encountering that you haven't noticed - yet.

[Lone_Gunman]

Handy, are you sure you still get radiation flying at 30,000 feet inside an airplane? or would it just apply if you are flying Super Man style without the benefit of an airframe?

[Handy]

Yep. A double wall beer can and plexiglas windows aren't like wearing lead underpants.

[Penforhire]

Hmm, I did wonder a little about my tritium-vial watch. But as others have said, weak beta (electron) radiation is easily stopped by skin.

When I went through rad safety training one of the things I remember is how the eyes (and gonads) are especially sensitive to radiation, compared to the rest of our bodies.

So it may not be a "good thing" to stare at your night sights from an inch away all night long. But even that probably won't hurt... Anyone here worried about your cell phone frying your head?

[Handy]

I do not own a portable microwave emitter and noggin warmer.


People get really upset if you talk about the cell phone problem. They'll talk about some of the studies (commisioned by ATT, MCI and the like) that say it doesn't hurt you. Do enough digging and you'll see a lot of data suggesting that it can, and that no really good long term data yet exists.

You all are free to do the first generation tests for the rest of us.;)

[Mal H]

The radiation Handy is talking about at 30,000 ft is gamma rays. The airplane might as well not be there, since it isn't much of a shield against gamma.

On the other hand, it's good that the airplane is there since it sure makes flying at that altitude (or any altitude for that matter) a whole lot easier. ;)

[Desert Dog]

It also makes flying at that altitude a lot more comfortable and warmer... :rolleyes:

[voilsb]

tritium vial systems are quite safe. as one poster said, you average 360mr/yr from normal everyday life. my tritium vial watch (which has way more tritium than any night sights will, because it's got the hour and minute hand, plus the hour markings) emits 4 mr/yr, raising my average annual dosage from 360 to 364 mr/yr. since we don't know if that 360 is 3.6x10^2 or 3.60x10^2, it's safe to say that it is an insignificant exposure difference.

and assuming it's 360.00 vs 4.0000, you're only increasing your exposure by 1.1%, and that's with a watch. a random guess says night sights will be 1/2 that level.

in other words, it's perfectly safe

[rebbryan]

i read a story a while back about a california town that wouldn't allow the officers put the night sights on their guns b/c the politicians declared it a "nuclear free zone"

[gharsh]

For those of you really worried about radiation damage from you night sites, just send them to me attached to a gun and I'll make sure that you don't have to loose sleep over it. :p

[firestar]

Another interesting item is the loudly colored plate ware from the 70's- "Fiestaware" it was called. The coatings on these have uranium in them, and they are 'screaming'... but these and many other examples are nothing to get alarmed about.

That Fiestaware made in Mexico years ago may also contain lead in the glaze and it is not safe to eat off some of it. The new stuff is O.K.

I remember reading a envirormental paper about nuclear contaminated sites and up in Michigan (where they make Tritium Nite Sights), there have serious serious environmental damage due to contamination of ground water and soil.

From what I have seen, it doesn't appear that night sights pose any real threat to your safety, just don't put you night sights directly next to you nuts if you want normal kids. It only takes one mutated sperm to produce a mutated baby. I think this is what happened to Michael Moore.:D

[AJ Dual]

Hmm,

Is this website in England?

I want one of those Tritium keychains, and all the sites that sell them seem to be in the UK or Australia. I've never seen one for sale in the US.

Probably violates some kind of DOE regs for max allowable Tritium or something. :(

They probably figure that Osama will buy about a million of them and cut them open all at once. :rolleyes:

[Waitone]

IIRC tritium is an alpha particle emitter. Alpha particles are successfully shielded with dead skin. Alpha particles have to be ingested to be dangerous either by breathing or eating and even then the level of danger is indetermined.

Tritium night sights are as dangerous as smoke detectors which use alpha particle emitters.

Don't worry about it.

[gbelleh]

I once heard that beer contains more radiation than the water of a nuclear cooling tower. Don't know if it's true or not.

Anyone else ever hear of that?

[Erik]

"Are nightsights dangerous because of the radiation they emit? "

No, but I find that the third eye I've grown eliminates my need for them anymore. :neener:

[Mal H]

Waitone - Tritium is a beta particle emitter. It can't be an alpha emitter since an alpha ray is essentially a Helium nucleus (2P + 2N), so, since it only has one proton, it can't expend what it doesn't have unlike the US Congress.

[Sisco]

From Trijicon's website:
According to documentation by health physicists in statements on file at the US NRC, it would take the simultaneous rupture of 10,000 of these small glass capsules in a small room 10 foot by 10 foot to potentially constitute a radiation health hazard. For this reason, customers need not be concerned about the potential risk of the night sight system. Furthermore, our front sight is 0.018 curies and the two rear sight dots are 0.018 curies each. A complete weapon system is 0.054 curies. This is less than many tritium watches, which have up to 0.200 curies or roughly four times as much radioactivity. In addition, the weapon is not as close to the body, and in less constant use than a watch.

[Penforhire]

Of course, you should never really trust the NRC or OSHA permissible exposure limits. If you have any history in the field of hazardous materials you'll notice how the TLV's (threshold limit values) and other exposure limits seem to drop over the years as we know more than we did before.

So what is "10,000 vials" today could be 100 or even 10 tomorrow. Especially for chronic systemic effects.

[zpo]

The keyrings are considered a novelty by whoever make these decisions. Thus they cannot be imported by a company. But it does not seem to be illegal to personally ship them in. There are many in preparedness and gadget communities that have ways of getting them. If you search through related forums, you can find people who will sell them to you. I know of someone in Holland that sell the keyrings and Swedish firesteels to raise money for a Boy Scout troop.

[benEzra]

I am not sure of the how and why of this, but [lantern] mantles are pretty 'hot'.
They contain thorium oxide, which glows brilliant white at a temperature considerably below "white hot" emission from a blackbody. This makes the light white instead of yellow. And yes, they make a Geiger counter go crazy. (BTW, thorium is a strong alpha emitter, and can be used as a fuel in breeder reactors designed for it.)
I once heard that beer contains more radiation than the water of a nuclear cooling tower. Don't know if it's true or not.
I'm sure it is. Beer probably contains more radioactive potassium and metals, I suspect. Practically speaking, cooling tower water won't be any more radioactive than ordinary rainwater. (Induced radioactivity will be confined to the primary loop--between the reactor core and the steam generators--not in the secondary or tertiary loops.) Exhaust from coal-fired power plants (which contains trace quantities of uranium, thorium, etc. that don't get caught in the precipitators) is far more radioactive.
If you have any history in the field of hazardous materials you'll notice how the TLV's (threshold limit values) and other exposure limits seem to drop over the years as we know more than we did before.
Some of this undoubtedly has to do with the increase in our paranoia factor. (Check out the MSDS for beach sand . . .) Radiation risk is, if anything, way overestimated. People in Denver get probably 200 mrem/year more radiation than flatlanders, yet moving to the Rockies doesn't increase your chances of dying of cancer a whit.

For perspective, radiation exposure rates aboard the International Space Station are on the order of a dozen mrem per DAY, IIRC, mostly from high-energy protons.

[gbelleh]

Interesting, benEzra.

[arinvolvo]

.

[Penforhire]

ben, yeah, I just can't believe the stuff I can still buy for home use, say most Carb cleaners, that I can't touch as a CA manufacturer. Like it is safe for Joe public!

[benEzra]

Oops, I lowballed that shuttle/space station radiation estimate. That should be 0.2 to 10 mrem per HOUR, not per day, or 3400 mrem (3.4 rem) for a 2-week mission. In the Van Allen belts, you can get up to 90,000 mrad/hr (yikes).

During the Chernobyl cleanup, the Soviets sent guys out onto the roof of the reactor building/machine hall, WITHOUT RAD SUITS, to pick up flaming pieces of bare reactor core with shovels and toss them back down the hole in the roof. Dose rates on some parts of the machine hall roof were 10,000 to 20,000 rads per hour, or 3-6 rads per second (figure 3000-6000 mrem/sec as a ballpark figure). One run of 30-50 seconds was considered permissable, then you were moved to other duties.:what:

[Shake]

Are you going to eat them?

Shake

[Nick96]

Let's see now. They treat cancer with radiation don' they. Even stick little radiation implants into you to treat it right? So, common wisdom would dictate that you are taking a health risk (in more ways that one) if you don't carry guns with luminesent sights at all times. As stated previously, beer contains some trace element. Beer & wine has been found to be good for you in moderation. They have also determined recently that coffee, eggs and bacon in moderation is good for you. Red meat is better than carbs to keep you skinny - and healthy.

For Lord's sake - as stated by the right honorable former Surgen General Josilyn Elders - "something's going to kill you eventually - if not one thing then another". So do what what you dang well please. Everyone's born with so many miles. As long as you don't overly abuse yourself - genetics largely limits the odometer. Cheating old age death generally results in simply prolonging a your life in a nursing home, and turning over your life long savings to a bunch of minimum wage dolts in a nursing home any way.

Go out like a rocket. Enjoy life to the fullest. When the powder's burnt - that's it.

In other words - don't worry about potential health risks associated with night sights on guns. In the grand scheme of things - it's a fart in the wind.

[benewton]

"I carry one in an inside the waist belly band right up against my skin -- wonder if I might be slowly killing myself."

Not exactly, since you started dying the day you were conceived. On the other hand, would you have wanted to miss the ride?


"Go out like a rocket. Enjoy life to the fullest. When the powder's burnt - that's it.

In other words - don't worry about potential health risks associated with night sights on guns. In the grand scheme of things - it's a fart in the wind.
Shake "

Mr. Nick has it, I think.


So, rest, relax, and enjoy, and, if you really want to spend time worrying, pray that you don't have to use the sights, and your selected weapon, for their intended purpose.

[Newton]

You should worry a LOT more about Mercury from primers and vaporized lead in indoor ranges.

Oh, and high frequency hearing damage, ricochets, ADs while cleaning, and idiots at the range clearing their jammed gun while pointing it sideways.

Let's face it, we collectively enjoy an inherently dangerous hobby, the radiation from Tritium sights must surely be the lowest area of risk.


Newton

[Guyon]

I have one of those keyrings.

I only glow a little bit when lights are out.

Don't worry about it.

[Double Naught Spy]

Newton, yes the risk is extremely low, pretty much non-existent unless the gas is taken internally such as by breathing it.

[gixxersixxer]

Madhatta, LAWDOGKMS, Double Naught Spy, Voilsb. You guys are very educated, knowledgeable people to have around. My Dad works for the Department of Environmental quality in the Radiation Control Division. I've grown up learning about radiation from him all my life. He always tells how it's funny that people hear radiation and get worried. Then the people get informed of how much background radiation they deal with everyday and they settle down. We need more educated people in the world.

[Mil Novecientos Once]

I just went to empty my bladder and I was such in a hurry that forgot to hit the light. To my surprise:uhoh: the recicled liquid glowed in the dark.:what:

[Double Naught Spy]

Sure enough, you say something is radioactive and people get all weird, sometimes for good reason, sometimes not.

It is sort of ironic that gun folks are concerned about tritium night sight radiation concerns, especially for such a small amount of radioactive material. That amount is NOTHING compared to the huge amounts of lead handled by shooters. Why is that? Because the lead being used in our bullets may be radioactive. It will all depend on the types of radiometric lead isotopes present and their half-lives. The half life of a radioactive isotope is the amount of time for it to loose 1/2 of its radioactivity. Depending on the isotope, that half life may be as little as seconds or as long as billions of years.

So why would lead be radioactive? Because it is the product of radioactive decay of things like Uranium 238 with 13 intermediate stages before the uranium becomes lead. Lead can also be the decay byproduct of thorium and Uranium 235. If you start off with a given amount of radiation being radiated from uranium 238, the half life is something like 4.4 billion years. That means that after 4.4 billion years, the lead produced will have 1/2 of the radioactive emissions as were produced originally.

When it comes to radioactive materials used in shooting, the amount of tritium radiation exposure is insignificant. Worrying about the tritium sort of represents missing the greater threat.

Hey, even burning wood produces a radioactive byproduct, cesium. Cesium can be found an measured in the resultant wood ash produced by burning wood. Amazing, no?

[1goodshot]

I'll have to carefull and not eat anymore of them.

[45R]

8 hours in front of you computer monitor is equvalet to something like a full spine seriers of X-rays. So that little radiation if your night sights isnt going to harm you. If you worried carry around one of those radiation detectors that radiologists wear.

[JohnKSa]

Radiation is a VERY generic term.

There are many kinds of radiation.

Some are dangerous (gamma, X-ray).
Some are harmless (visible light, alpha,beta).
Some are in the middle (UV light, microwaves).

The kind tritium emits is harmless even at high levels.

Besides pointed out, the levels emitted from night sights is pitifully small. At those levels, it would be safe even if it were a more dangerous form of radiation.

[grenadier]

Even if tritylated water is inhaled / absorbed by someone, the amount of damage isn't going to be nearly that what it couuld be, since the tritium atoms will rapidly exchange with water, and will be secreted / excreted in short order.