If "Police" break down your door and come in with guns drawn. Would you shoot them?


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TheOtherOne
January 6, 2003, 05:02 PM
This thread, where 4 or 5 criminals dressed as police busted in a house and killed six people got me thinking:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2352


If people dressed as police busted down your door and started coming in with weapons and they even announced themselves as cops, would you open fire?

I've got nothing illegal in my home and cops would have no reason to be busting down the doors, so I would automatically assume they were bad guys and start shooting.

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UnknownSailor
January 6, 2003, 05:12 PM
Just because you aren't a criminal, and have nothing illegal, doesn't prevent you from being "no knock" raided. Cops aren't unknown to get the address wrong, or get bad info from a paid confidential informant.

As for myself, it would depend on the circumstances. How far away from the front door at the time, and whether I am carrying.

Ideally, we will wind up negotiating at gunpoint, until I am satisfied of the bonifides of the police.

Carlos Cabeza
January 6, 2003, 05:13 PM
Its doubtful that any entry team worth it's salt would even let you know they are at the door and would take you by surprise and completely "ventilate" you. On the other hand if they are just crim's trying to pass themselves off as the real McCoy, you might have a chance. Dogs can hear stuff we can't, so they would be a plus. Even though I keep a 1911 in the pouch of my
"Tactical Lazyboy" in condition 1, I doubt I could even get a shot off at the goodguys and would hope they don't have the wrong house............mistakenly..........:eek:

SkySlash
January 6, 2003, 05:20 PM
My wife and I have discussed this on many occassions without any pleasant thoughts.

I live in a 2nd floor apartment with no balcony and only one steel entry door, and one exposed window. I have several 2nd story windows, but you would need a ladder to access any window in my home except the front door and the window right next to it.

We are working on a method now to block the one window that is exposed, and anytime we are home, the steel door is double locked with deadbolts.

We are both of the mindset that anyone who comes into our home without our consent will be shot, and we are both willing to shoot first and question later. What concerns me, especially living in an apartment, is that the police may mistakenly choose my door to bust in.

Given that both my wife and I have no criminal history, we both know that no police officer should ever legitimately decide to bust in my front door, and if they do, I hope their Kevlar saves their life, and their bullets miss their mark because we are both going to shoot at whatever comes through our door uninvited. I can only pray we're never faced with that kind of situation, otherwise the child she is carrying will probably end up parentless or killed by police murderers.

It's a lose lose situation for all parties involved, and that is why I will always oppose no-knock raids of any kind regardless of the crime involved. Unless a life is at stake, and it is a confirmed hostage situation, I firmly believe no-knock raids are the unconstitutional result of a police state gone mad. There is ALWAYS a better place to arrest a suspect than by raiding his home while he is inside, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

If you can muster a raid force of 8 fully decked SWAT men, you can damn sure cough up 10 uniformed B&W's to bumrush a perp in public. There are 1000 better methods than a No-knock Raid, and the answer to the original question, is yes, I would definitely shoot, probably to my own demise.

-SS

telewinz
January 6, 2003, 05:34 PM
Of course not! If you were a hostage and the HRT came to get you out would you stand up and wave at them or lay down on the floor and follow orders? In this country, getting into a gun fight with law enforcement is 99.999% of the time a VERY poor idea! Co-operate with them 100% and maybe you will live long enough to sue them. Otherwise its just a question of how big is the mistake going to be!:what:

TheOtherOne
January 6, 2003, 05:43 PM
I'm with SkySlash on the "lose lose situation". If I shoot and they really are cops, I'm probably going to die. If I don't shoot and they really are criminals, I'm probably going to die.

AZTOY
January 6, 2003, 05:45 PM
If "Police" break down your door and come in with guns drawn. Would you shoot the them.

I hope to God that i will never need to make that choice.:uhoh:

Baba Louie
January 6, 2003, 05:50 PM
In my CCW class, someone asked that very question. Our instructor worked (works) with Metro's SWAT teams doing "no-knocks".

The reply was interesting.

"I.D. or Die" as loud as you can, over and over. If they're truly Metro cops, ID will be forthcoming. If bad guys are dressed up as Cops, they probably won't know what you're talking about and will do their thing anyway.

How much time will you/I have to respond in an appropriate fashion?

I've got 5 dogs who sleep in the front room. 1 Rott, 4 bird-dogs. Anyone parking out front or coming up to the door, we know about it. The neighbor's dog lives out front in a fenced yard. He ALWAYS says hello to everyone he sees and I've learned to tell his "Its a neighborhood Cat" bark from his "Its someone else who doesn't live here" bark. Call it 5 seconds from dog's barking to reach door, 3 seconds to door blown in,... and then, the moment of truth. ID or Die.

Not very re-assuring is it?

We have no drugs in the house, I don't tell anyone about any firearms that may or may not be in the house. Just us kids.

Potential of bad-guy doing his thing in false uniform? It has happened here in Vegas, so I think it can and will happen again.

Potential of real LEO "no-knock" as a result of mistaken address?

I stand a better chance of hitting the lottery.

These guys (LVMPD-SWAT) are good at what they do. Since I've lived here, I've never read of an "OOPS, sorry, wrong address" from them.

When SWAT does their thing (I've seen it once) they cordon off the whole neighborhood, removing residents from neighboring homes, they're in the back yard, side yard, front street, helicopter overhead and baby, you're sealed off but good.

They've been known to call the house in question to get someone on the line prior to the entry.

They DO not fool around. If you've got a gun pointed at them... hope your will is up to date. ID or die or not. They've been known to outshoot Seal Team 6, if you can believe that. (I don't question their ability one iota)

Bad guys want something you've got. Money, drugs or maybe guns (but probably the former two). They usually know what they want, where it is and who's got it.

Don't mess with bad things or associate with bad people and chances are you'll never encounter either the police or a fake.

Home invasion and armed robbery via following you home from bank, store, work, casino, etc. is still a possibility, of course. But that's not the question at hand.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Adios

St. Gunner
January 6, 2003, 06:03 PM
I live at the end of a road, way back off that road in the boonies. I to have thought of this situation and it is the reason I have taken the time and made the effort to meet the sheriff department that patrols this area. They have already been told all theyhave to do is knock and show the warrant and they are welcome. It avoids busted doors, smashed windows, and assorted other bad things. I also invite each and every one of them to come out and use my range if they would like, never been taken up on that by any of the local sheriff deputies though.

Bad guys would have to be pretty dang good to silence all the dogs soon enough that I didn't know they where coming. Then they have to face rifle fire, because I am a firm believer in you only use a pistol to get to your rifle. But then I keep the rifle within easy reach all the time anyway.

I'm not sure good guys could make it here un-noticed with the dogs I have roaming the place. But I figure I have covered that base with my talking to the guys, so it isn't a fear I have.

All of you need to make an effort to meet the local LEO's, at least the guys who work your neighborhood. Only makes sense to avoid the problem if at all possible. Course some folks don't like to cause they figure they have something to hide.

So yep you wear a raid jacket and start shooting my dogs i'll figure your intentions for less than honorable and we will have a problem. From a position of cover they will be asked to chunk down their hardware and lay with their hands on the back of their head, anyone who fails to follow instructions will have two holes to center mass. Course the cell phone will be on my side and 911 will have already been dialed so they can record the warnings I have given.

It is one measure I have taken of late, I went to investigate a car who decided to drive in the drive one night and park while making lots of noise and people drinking. I slipped down close enough to see that it was a bunch of rough looking fellas and dialed 911, told the operator I was going to approach the car and could she leave the recorder on. Snapped the phone to my belt and walked up to the car from the rear away from the headlights. When I tapped on the trunk and asked if they needed some help 911 got four different spanish variations of ***? Then they got the sound of the car starting and four individuals taking their beer party to another road. Those 30rd rifle high caps really must be intimidating, or maybe its the big redneck in shorts, t-shirt ,and sandals shining a maglight in their eyes when it's 30 some degrees out, who knows. :D

stephen_g22
January 6, 2003, 06:03 PM
It seems like when most of these home invaders dressed as cops kill a bunch of people one or more of the victims are in the pharmacutal business, not just random people. If you do not sell dope you minimize your chances of being no-knocked by the fake cops or real cops for that matter.

4thHorseman
January 6, 2003, 06:03 PM
I'm with SkySlash on the "lose lose situation". If I shoot and they really are cops, I'm probably going to die. If I don't shoot and they really are criminals, I'm probably going to die.

Whole heartly agree. Make the best decision at the the time with best info you have.

G-Raptor
January 6, 2003, 06:13 PM
Something to think about. Can you AFFORD to assume that the person(s) kicking in your door are cops. Bad guys sometimes get the wrong address too.


http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/4873541.htm

Posted on Sat, Jan. 04, 2003

FORT WORTH - Police acknowledged Friday that an undercover officer was masked and brandishing a gun when she was shot by a store clerk who believed that he was about to be robbed.

Officials initially disputed witness accounts about the mask, a knit ski-type mask called a balaclava, and said the officer was shot Thursday evening as she and other police went into the E-Z Food Store to arrest a man suspected of selling drugs.

They also revised their account to say that, contrary to their original statement, the officer was not wearing a bullet-resistant vest when she was shot under the left armpit.

The 40-year-old officer, who is not being identified because of her undercover assignment, was upgraded from critical to serious condition at John Peter Smith Hospital on Friday afternoon.

Bao Nguyen, son of the store owner, said the masked officer never identified herself as a police officer as she entered the business at 968 Elmwood Ave. He also said he did not see any police insignia on the officer's raid jacket -- only a "dark figure" with a gun -- when he pulled his .380-caliber handgun and fired once.

"In my mind, I knew if I didn't shoot this person, they're going to shoot me first and then my dad," Nguyen, 28, said.

Police said they are investigating whether the officer followed proper procedure when she walked into the store wearing a mask and carrying a gun, instead of waiting for the suspect to exit.

"I don't know why they went into the store to make an arrest," said Lt. Jesse Hernandez, a police spokesman. "If you are going to go make an arrest of someone who just sold drugs, you might want to draw your gun.

"This is still early; we are still looking at everything. I don't have answers to all your questions yet."

Police Chief Ralph Mendoza did not return calls to his pager late Friday afternoon. Hernandez said neither he nor the chief would comment on department policies until an internal review is complete.

City Manager Gary Jackson said Mendoza had told him that circumstances surrounding the use of the mask and entering a business to make an arrest would be evaluated. He also said departmental policy does not require officers to wear bulletproof vests.

"It is a routine matter in serious incidents like this to do an incident evaluation," he said.

Hernandez said he provided inaccurate information about the mask and bulletproof vest Thursday night because of the chaos that occurred immediately after the shooting.

"I gave you the best information I had at the time," he said. "Some of it came from officers who got there after the fact. They weren't real sure."

Hernandez said undercover officers typically wear pull-on masks "to conceal their identity because they may be a 'buy' officer one day and they don't want to be recognized."

He said no decision has been made on possible charges against Nguyen, who was questioned and released Thursday night.

"We'll collect the facts and, if warranted, he may face a grand jury referral," Hernandez said. "It may very well turn out to be a tragic accident."

On Friday morning, the store's owner and his wife reopened the business.

They were joined later in the afternoon by Bao Nguyen, who said he felt sick after the shooting and had difficulty sleeping.

He arrived, visibly shaken, to a swarm of reporters seeking his account of events.

Nguyen and his father, who asked not to be identified, said they did not own a gun when they bought the store in May 2000. They said they later purchased two, one for each to carry while working, on the advice of Fort Worth police.

"We have a good relationship with police," the owner said, adding that officers typically frequent his store, giving advice and keeping an eye on the business.

Nguyen said he had no clue that he had shot an officer until his father called 911 and dispatchers indicated that police were already there.

"In my mind, I'm thinking, 'How can this be?' " Nguyen said. "I heard from outside a voice saying, 'Officer down.' That's when I realized it."

Soon after, officers stormed into the store.

"They were yelling and cussing," the owner said. "I just put my hands up. I tell my son, 'You put your hands up and do whatever they say.' "

Nguyen said he quickly acknowledged responsibility for the shooting.

"They asked, 'Anybody else in the building?' I said no. They asked, 'Who fired the shot?' I raised my hands up and said, 'I did.' "

Nguyen, his father and the customer whom police were attempting to arrest when the shooting occurred, were ordered on the floor and were handcuffed.

James Crenshaw, 27, admitted selling a $20 rock of crack cocaine to the undercover officers and was booked into Mansfield Jail, where he remained Friday, police said. Police said he faces a charge of delivery of a controlled substance less than one gram, a state jail felony.

The father and son were taken to police headquarters for questioning until almost midnight, when they were driven back to the store and released.

Nguyen and his father said they believe that the shooting could have been avoided if the officer had identified herself.

"It happened too fast," Nguyen said. "I just concentrated on the mask and the gun [she was] holding."

Sam Walker, a professor of criminal justice at the University of Nebraska at Omaha who specializes in police accountability, said the shooting might have been avoided if officers had waited for the suspect to leave the store or used a uniformed officer to make the arrest.

"I think they are creating a very high-risk situation, entering a commercial establishment with a gun and a mask and a hood," Walker said.

"I think the average person would not assume someone with a hood on is a police officer. ... I haven't actually heard of many cases like this. I think it would certainly be an occasion for this department and others to clarify their policies."

Hernandez said a review is under way.

"Anytime something like this happens, obviously, we will go back and review our policies, our procedures, our practices, and see if there is something we need to do differently and make those adjustments as we need to," Hernandez said. "If we make mistakes, then we will correct those."

The wounded officer, a single mother of a young daughter, has been with the department since 1995. Sources said the woman has worked in narcotics enforcement for much of her career, including work at another police agency and as a member of drug task forces before coming to Fort Worth.

"That's her main interest," one officer said. "That's all she ever really tried to work. That's where she has put her efforts. She definitely is experienced beyond her tenure with our department in narcotics."

Nguyen said he feels remorse over the shooting and would like to one day meet the officer and apologize to her and her family.

"To the one I shot, I'm really sorry," Nguyen said. "I pray for her."

Gila Jorge
January 6, 2003, 06:30 PM
Then there is the story from San Antonio of cops barging into and shooting up the wrong house.
I guess I would give it all I had....probably die in the process but not without taking some Jack Booted criminals with me.

spacemanspiff
January 6, 2003, 06:35 PM
IIRC, the recent account up here in alaska (dec 31) of the two who posed as DEA knocked on the door.
i think both suspects are still at large. not gonna open my door to anyone.

not like i have to worry about that anyways, i dont have any friends to begin with. :D

Jason Demond
January 6, 2003, 06:49 PM
Anyone smashing my door in is a bad guy, peroid! I will act accordingly, and people will die. I don't want to kill anyone, but it it ever comes down to it, I will. This was a hard moral decision for me to come to, but I have made my peace and will do whatever I have to do to protect my family and self.

TallPine
January 6, 2003, 07:04 PM
"Anytime something like this happens, obviously, we will go back and review our policies, our procedures, our practices, and see if there is something we need to do differently and make those adjustments as we need to," Hernandez said. "If we make mistakes, then we will correct those."

No "poop" !!!

(I would have used a different word, but ...)

Rebel Gunman HK
January 6, 2003, 07:09 PM
I do nothing to warrant my door being kicked in by anybody. So, if it is kicked in Im giving them a lead salad. Cops need to start being more carefull about their actions.

HS/LD
January 6, 2003, 07:50 PM
My house.

No-knock of any kind is answered with lead.:mad:

I have LEOs in my family and I just pray they check check and double check their addresses.:(

HS/LD

Sindawe
January 6, 2003, 08:03 PM
ANYBODY breaking down my door is up to no good, and will be repelled with leathal force if needed. Like others here, I have nothing in my home that would warrant such actions, even under the color of the law these days. If the legal systems thinks I do, get a freaking warrant naming the place to be searched and the items or persons to be siezed, knock politely, serve warrant and we'll hash the details out in court. Thats the way the game is SUPPOSED to be played in our society.

Use a battering ram to open the door, swarm in yelling and screaming and several cops will not be going home that day.

Zundfolge
January 6, 2003, 08:55 PM
Anyone breaking down my door will be fired upon unless I see several police vehicles in my yard (although I'll probably yell out a few of Baba Louie's "ID or Die" calls first).

However I believe these things can be avoided by 2 things;

Follow St. Gunner's advice and get to know the LEOs in your area ... especially the cops on your beat (maybe even sign up for a ride along). The better they know you, the less likely they will be to serve a no-knock on you, by accident or on purpose.

But the most important thing we can do is push our local police and politicritters to DE-MILITARIZE THE POLICE!

There is no reason our local constabulary need to be serving no-knock warrants on anyone (except maybe in a hostage situation)
There is no reason they should be carrying MP5s ... shotguns and handguns should be fine for them.
There is no reason for balaclavas and black "spec-ops spook ninja" wear, simple blue, black, beige or grey police officer uniforms with spit-shined shoes and "barney fife" style hats are all they need.

We need to make it clear to our local governments that we will not accept an "occupying army" in place of our "Protect and serve" police officers.

JohnKSa
January 6, 2003, 09:14 PM
I would never knowingly get into an armed confrontation with a police officer.

However, as pointed out several times, it would be difficult for a homeowner to be certain that the armed person/persons breaking down the door were police.

The way I figure it, my best chance for survival unless I'm ABSOLUTELY certain they're LEOs is to go ahead and shoot. If they're criminals that was the right choice, and if they're not, at least the police will summon medical help (unless I'm killed outright).

If I guess wrong and hold my fire and they turn out to be criminals then I'm probably dead and might get to watch my wife get killed or worse before I die.

bad_dad_brad
January 6, 2003, 09:18 PM
Lot's of testosterone out there.

You shoot a uniformed cop, any place, any time, and you are in for a world of hurt. The only exception would be if you thought you might be killed (then you are probably dirty anyway). You might have a chance in court if he were in plain clothes, but in blue, the man is going to put you away.

No, friends, just be cool, put your hands up, and act calm, it will be sorted out later by those scum called lawyers.

NIGHTWATCH
January 6, 2003, 09:26 PM
Its impossable to be an activist for the RKBA and not consider this question to its end.

My answer: If those coming, treat me with respect. And give me no reason to believe that my life is in danger. I will cooperate to the fullest. If, however, an effort is underway to intimidate me, I would not, could not live with myself, if I did not act to defend myself. This is a no win situation. One man standing alone (NYC) against a government force who is out to enforce a law that in itself is a crime in the shadow of our God given rights. My answer is, I cant win but....one of you is coming with me. :fire:


If we all have this mentallity, we can then tally the bodies afterwards and there will still be enough of us left to finish the King.

Yohan
January 6, 2003, 09:28 PM
"When they kick at your front door
How you gonna come?
With your hands on your head
Or on the trigger of your gun "
-The Clash

standingbear
January 6, 2003, 09:56 PM
ive always wondered whats the deal with the black masks and ninja garb anyways?the more i think about this the more its easy for me to decide.someone bashes in your door,dressed in black with masks covering their faces, imagine blinding flashlights everywhere(cant see who or what is breaking in)shouting,..what the h@ll would anybody do?imagine your dog(if you have one)runs at the no knock servers smashing in the door(thinking its also in danger)-its shot amid all the blinding lights,shouting and confusion.how the heck would you react?imagine a scenero if you will.no knock served on wrong house,elderly couple freaks out and the ol man dies from a heart attack all because some crackhead told the servers that "dis was da place where it happens".oops wrong place,sorry about mr jones.i would believe i or any family member was about to be killed if they accidently came here,that doesnt make me a criminal,it makes me a human being.

ezoeni
January 6, 2003, 10:02 PM
Yes... unless I see patrol cars and lights flashing outside

After hearing about these home invasions. Had one here in a town close by back in the beginning of the year, where bg's announced they were cops and broke in and did there thing.

Im in my home!

Detachment Charlie
January 6, 2003, 10:11 PM
I've got a REAL problem with cops wearing balaclavas or any masks. I guess I'm just old and out of date because I believe there are only two types of masked men with guns: The Lone Ranger and bad guys...and there ain't no Lone Ranger.
Hi-Ho Silver!!!:fire:

G-Raptor
January 6, 2003, 10:11 PM
You shoot a uniformed cop, any place, any time, and you are in for a world of hurt. The only exception would be if you thought you might be killed (then you are probably dirty anyway). You might have a chance in court if he were in plain clothes, but in blue, the man is going to put you away.

If he's dressed in blue with a shiny badge on his chest, I'd take the chance he's for real. Flashing lights in the front of the house would help convince me. But, if he's dressed in black with a ski-mask over his face, that's another story.

I believe it was Jeff Cooper who said "any man wearing a mask and carrying a gun is a legitimate target".

When cops dress like hitmen and gangsters, they increase their own risk of "friendly fire" from innocent citizens.

mjustice
January 6, 2003, 10:17 PM
I pray I never have to make that decision. If it does happen, I'll be sure to try the "ID or Die!" routine. Otherwise, it may be the end of mjustice and a few officers. A lose-lose indeed.

Sometimes I think if the police took the time to lure people outside of the home that most of these incidents could be avoided.

At the rate these incidents are escalating, "Dynamic Entry" may have to be renamed "Dynamic Death". Eventually they are going to break down the wrong door and the S is really going to hit the F when they realize that the person on the other side isn't fooling around...

MJ

standingbear
January 6, 2003, 10:20 PM
will someone answer why the need for black masks and the ninja garb?

PATH
January 6, 2003, 10:21 PM
I guess I would make that call when and if it really happened. Not very likely for me though!

blades67
January 6, 2003, 10:35 PM
I'll let you know if it ever happens.

Blackhawk
January 6, 2003, 10:49 PM
Baba Louie nailed it -- with about 37 16d.

Double Naught Spy
January 6, 2003, 10:53 PM
I am surprised that the Fort Worth convenience store owner's son who shot the female cop did not get fired on or shot himself.

Here is a link to where a home owner did shoot at the cops and did end up dead for it.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29414&highlight=police+home+owner+shot

cratz2
January 6, 2003, 11:29 PM
Ideally, we will wind up negotiating at gunpoint,

No offence, but that's pretty funny. A actual SWAT team busts through your door, unannounced with a ramrod and I promise you they are NOT going to negotiate with you if you have a gun pointed at them... :what:

I live in the suburbs and if a group of 'officers' busted down my door, I would probably offer very little resistance, if any. Chances are my kids are in the house and I'm certainly not going to risk their lives. Furthermore, I've never done anything to warrant such a treatment and if they were in fact officers, representatives of my city or state, then my city or state are going to be sending me a very small check with lots of numbers on it in pretty short order. I also don't deal with the types of people that would bust down my door for no reason. Maybe I live a sheltered life but I firmly believe that when most people have something that direct happen to them, they've done something to warrant it. Not necessarily deserve, but probably something to warrant.

pax
January 7, 2003, 01:50 AM
As my shooting buddy once pointed out to me, "Not all scenarios are survivable."

With that in mind, if a gang of black-clad, ski-mask wearing, scary looking people crashes down my door, I have a split second to make an important decision.

Four possibilities:

1) They are police, and I hold my fire and cooperate. I live.
2) They are police, and I shoot. I die, by quick gunfire.
3) They are bad guys, and I don't shoot. I die -- slowly, by rape and torture.
4) They are bad guys, and I shoot. I might live; I might die quickly. I probably won't die by torture.

Okay, given all that. I'd rather live than die.

But if I have to choose a way to die, I'd rather die by a quick bullet than by a gang rape and slow torture. And I'd like to take some of the scum with me when I go.

Sorry, Mr. Policeman. I hope you don't knock over my door.

pax

pax
January 7, 2003, 01:58 AM
One more thought.

If they're police, and I shoot. I die, but my family lives.

If they're bad guys, and I don't shoot. My family dies.

pax

sm
January 7, 2003, 03:43 AM
Reality sometimes sucks. Bad things do happen to good people.

I have a better chance of it being BG's than LEO's ,.. from past life experiences we'll say. But anything can occur in an apt complex--mix up on deliveries all the time.
Heard it said, the only thing left of me when I die is that which doesn't burn...
If I make it , I'll share, If not ya'll decide.

mrat
January 7, 2003, 04:42 AM
I have seen a lot of threads on gun boards about "what to do if your house is no knocked by the police". I don't lie in bed awake at night worrying about this. I am starting to think that maybe I have a problem because it seems a high number of people think this is a real danger and I don't.

Matt1911
January 7, 2003, 07:27 AM
I also have dogs(6 of them)who stay indoors with us,being in a rural area,with the pups,i would have plenty of warning if anyone got close to the house.I can not imagine a no-knock raid with 6 dogs barking thier heads off.That may be a wrong assumsion,but even if a bonified police team were here,the pups sound quite vicious.At this point and time,if the door opened,i would shoot,so would my wife,my son,my daughter....
Matt

2nd Amendment
January 7, 2003, 09:52 AM
I'm still waiting on that mask and Ninja suit explanation. I've been waiting several years. The fact is that so long as this is regular procedure there's a good chance somebody other than myself is going to get shot.

A potential problem, depending on your pov, is the layout of my new house. The cops can bust in that door without accomplishing a whole lot because I am sitting in a second floor loft accessed by a catwalk. There'll be no organized charge into my bedroom no matter how "good" they may be at their job. It's just physically impossible. This gives me a defensible high ground and it slows down any attack, good guys or bad. For the bad guys it's pretty much a death sentence. For the good guys it may save everyones life. The problem is, thx to those Ninja suits, figuring out who's who.

Oleg Volk
January 7, 2003, 10:29 AM
AFAIK, some members have done raids while working as police officers. I'd like to hear from them.

What I heard outside of THR makes me think that most cops do not like the practice. That said, they have a pretty good chance of surviving, as they can armor up and the residents seldom have rifles handy. This ends up being a process in which errors result in tax-financed payouts to survivors of the affected residents but no dead intruders or personal financial responsibility.

At the same time, it seems that even the street cops are under a great deal of oversight and I'd be surprised in SWAT/OMON types don't have their boss breathing down their necks the whole time. So I'd like to hear from the source than from the reporters who generally do not get the details right.

TheOtherOne
January 7, 2003, 11:36 AM
mrat:
I have seen a lot of threads on gun boards about "what to do if your house is no knocked by the police". I don't lie in bed awake at night worrying about this. I am starting to think that maybe I have a problem because it seems a high number of people think this is a real danger and I don't.Of course it's never happened to me and I doubt it every will and I don't really worry about it either, but I still think it's nice to always be prepared mentally for whatever may happen.

And it can happen.... My only real experience wtih anything like this is a "friend of a friend" thing when I lived in San Antonio. It wasn't the exact same type of situation we are talking about here but 5 people were murdered when the bad guys got the wrong house. I kind of new one of the people from Jefferson High. The French Street murders: http://organizedcrime.about.com/library/weekly/aa082002a.htm

sm
January 7, 2003, 11:47 AM
I too would like to hear from those LEO types that have actually participated. Feedback from Dept. and personal perspective.

Like I said with Home Invasions, and carjackings around ,past experiences...I don't think they'll be selling GS cookies. Never Condition white .

Pappy John
January 7, 2003, 01:07 PM
2nd A,

There was a considerable TFL thread that ran on the reasons for the use of the ninja masks. It was started during the time of the D.C. sniper shootings concerning some news pictures of masked police involved in one of the roadblocks in effect at the time to try and find the shooters. Several LEO's responded saying they were in all probability undercover narcotics officers with a need to keep thier identities hidden in order to perform thier undercover activities. And that the speed that was required to set up these roadblocks in time to be effective meant that all nearby officers had to become involved, undercover or not.

Myself? The arguments at the time did NOT convince me that masked officers are EVER....repeat EVER....a good idea. It fuzzes the line between good and bad that the public has when it thinks about our law enforcement officers. The good guys DON'T wear the masks. Undercover officers should stay out of public situations.

2nd Amendment
January 7, 2003, 01:19 PM
You're right and I should have made myself more plain. I'm still waiting to hear a good explanation since there was nothing in that thread(or a couple others) that ever seemed at all satisfactory. It does blur the line and I've yet to see anything that outweighs the potential damage.

HS/LD
January 7, 2003, 01:28 PM
"any man wearing a mask and carrying a gun is a legitimate target".


I agree.
Enter at your peril.


HS/LD

SoDFW Jason
January 7, 2003, 01:57 PM
If ANYBODY breaks down my door(do you know how damned expensive those are to replace? At least a Yugo SKS or so.) they can fully expect to spring a leak post haste.

Beren
January 7, 2003, 02:02 PM
I have to agree with Pax.

I would never knowingly fire upon a police officer, with the possible exception of a SHTF scenario in which the government is going house-to-house confiscated everyone's firearms.

All a criminal has to do is pull on some uniform, stick a shiny fake badge on it, and break down a door while shouting "Police!" How, in a split second, am I going to ascertain whether or not the uniform is genuine? I can't.

If someone busts my door open, I can only assume that hostile intent is involved. I'll try the "ID or die" routine, if I remember, but you'll likely read about my untimely death in the papers - one way or another.

If the police knock and announce a warrant, I will cooperate (again, with the possible exception of wholesale firearms confiscation from the public.)

No-knock raids ONLY serve a legitimate purpose in hostage situations. Any other use of them is a disgusting perversion of police powers.

WonderNine
January 7, 2003, 06:18 PM
It's a lose lose situation for all parties involved, and that is why I will always oppose no-knock raids of any kind regardless of the crime involved. Unless a life is at stake, and it is a confirmed hostage situation, I firmly believe no-knock raids are the unconstitutional result of a police state gone mad. There is ALWAYS a better place to arrest a suspect than by raiding his home while he is inside, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

If you can muster a raid force of 8 fully decked SWAT men, you can damn sure cough up 10 uniformed B&W's to bumrush a perp in public. There are 1000 better methods than a No-knock Raid, and the answer to the original question, is yes, I would definitely shoot, probably to my own demise.

I agree with this 100%. I see no need for no-knock home raids unless their is a confirmed hostage situation or the homeowner is believed to be in possession or nuclear or bio/chem weapons manufactor.

I'll shoot first and ask questions later as well.

tetchaje1
January 7, 2003, 07:43 PM
I, of course, agree with my brethren regarding the lack of need for ninja masks, black suits, black helicopters, and no-knock raids.

I also agree with what has been said about no-knocks only being used in hostage situations.

You SHOULD ALWAYS expect the good-guy's face to be uncovered. That is how the public should expect to see their public servants. It is a matter of trust. It is a matter of trusting said government employee to respect my rights as I will respect his/hers.

A kind knock on my door, a calm tone of voice, display the search warrant, and you are free to enter.

Come barging into my house in the middle of the night shouting and screaming and I must assume that my family's safety is in danger as I am not a criminal, and I have no reason for police to be there.

I am leaning more and more to replacing my shotgun in the closet with my AR for reasons of home invasions and perps wearing body armor.

:uhoh: Scary thought though... :uhoh:

Hardtarget
January 7, 2003, 07:48 PM
This very thing happend in Mid.Tenn. just last year. Wrong , address, no-knock entry. I'm not sure of the home owners age. He was older than me, so close to 60 yrs. He fired several shots from his shotgun, but when the smoke clearedhe was dead. It was a drug raid for the neighborhood dealer but with the wrong address.For sure...no winners.My thinking is close to what I've been reading here.I don't drink, have anything to do with drugs, stolen property, child porn, kidnapping...or anything that wpuld make my house a likely target. I'm like white cake on a paper plate...not very interesting...but that doesn't block a MISTAKE!:uhoh: So if my door is kicked in its likely to get ugly fast...and with my luck the ugly will be all over me!
Mark.
the lose/lose of "Murphey's Law"

JShirley
January 7, 2003, 08:29 PM
What pax said.

For now, I don't think I have to worry, as I live in the barracks! :)

capnrik
January 7, 2003, 08:45 PM
My House. My Boat. If you're nice, I will be too.

If you're not nice, I will be too.

Care less who you are.

Baba Louie
January 7, 2003, 11:45 PM
HardTarget,

At least he died a free man defending that which he loved. Not that that does him or his family any good.

Adios

G-Raptor
January 8, 2003, 12:07 AM
FBI
ATF
DEA
STATE POLICE
COUNTY SHERIFF
MUNICIPAL COPS
MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TASK FORCE


All of these agencies have their own black ninja assault teams. They're everywhere. At times they have overlapping investigations. They don't always talk to each other. The shear number of them ensures that there will be mistakes; lying informers, bad information, poor intelligence, typographical errors. Result, they're going to kick in the wrong door sometimes. Not to mention the "roving bounty hunters" looking for a bail jumper.

It's a scary thought for someone attuned to defending themselves. You can't tell the good guys from the bad guys. Just because someone yells "Police" don't make it so.

There's just too many people kicking in doors these days.

Gordon
January 8, 2003, 12:43 AM
The local Sherrifs know I patrol my property armed with NVD's, if an alphabet spec ops team comes I'm reasonably sure they clear it with local Sherrif who knows me. I'd be wakened by dogs unless they took them out with real quiet suppressors,(I dont think so) and retreat to "strong room" across bedroom. Of course you could catch me asleep and weave your way thru the Cholla cactus around the hot tub , I like to sleep with deck door open. But then motion sensors at corners of house would turn on spot lights, central alarm system on at night too. If ninja come(and they did to near neighbor 10 years ago) they will be bad guys for sure and will be real lucky or sneaky. Don't try to cut my power the old Y2K generator will start up. My house is on rise with clear field of fire for 200 yds (not as good as Art Eastmans) and 1/4 mile of drive way with gate thru pasture with horses and goats, is paved with crunchy gravel , I should have chineese geese too but they are hard to keep. Perimeter is 6 foot high no climb welded wire fencing with "hot shot wire " on inside and signs. I'll leave it all in a blink if they start gun raiding. Then motion detectors can open propane line and 100lb 0xygen bottle 1 minute before Piezo electric igniter. Flame should shiloette "invader real good from 300 yds or so.:evil:

labgrade
January 8, 2003, 01:41 AM
Didn't even read a single reply, but if They come, as a proper Dynamic Entry Team should - for The (real) Bad Guys - at the right time & they've done their proper surveilance, you won't have a chance to do anything other than die if you put up any resistance.

Door/s ripped off at 3AM (or when you're most asleep), flashbang/s at odd angles, you're totally out of it/they're most assuredly not.

If you're lucky against a "good team," you'll be face down long before you have a chance to be shot.

Unlucky = you have time to grab yer shooter & be buzz-cut.

.... IF, it's cops.

What's to woory? You get to choose. ;)

Deadhand
January 8, 2003, 02:16 AM
I have been involved in a number of "raids". I can tell you that the detectives or officers involved have done an enormous amount of background investigation regarding the case. They will know every little detail there is to know. Are there guns in the house? Who are the players? Routine movements. What rooms are occupied, and when. Believe me, those officers don't want to risk their lives, their careers, or the case they've been working months on by screwing up on the homework. We know that any time we enter a home in an aggressive manner that the chances of getting hurt or killed are high. Careful recon and preparation all go into the search warrant, and if there is anything less, the judge will not sign and approve the warrant. In my department, the ninja mask- like wear is worn by SWAT, and by the time they are called to a scene, the time for the 'excrement to strike the occilator' is long past. Sure, there have been mistakes- we're human, too. But if you're REALLY a totally law-abiding citizen, and armed suspects storm your home, it is probably not the cops!

labgrade
January 8, 2003, 02:53 AM
Ahem.

& me too, Dh, but ...

"it is probably not the cops!"

Well then. Then, you should absolutely defend your home.

"Sure, there have been mistakes- we're human, too."

Well then. You obviously shouldn't.

Kinda the whole crux of the question, no?

My point, maybe sloppily put, was that if it's "cops" who know their business, you'll die if you attempt a(ny) defense.

If it's real bad guys & you don't = you're just screwed.

Ya takes yer chances.

Not to pick 'n choose at all, but I could cite a few cases where the "good guys" smoked a few innocents (& frankly, a few of their own) when doing unrequited dynamtic entries willy-nilly based on a "legal search warrant (issued by A Judge - as if :rolleyes: )," "careful recon," yada, etc.

Even read about a few (enough) cases where there were out-of-court settlements where The Cops paid off for (let's not be too blunt) - illegitimately/illegally/shooting to death - persons who had no business being shot.

So, quick question, Deadhand. Your house is violated by a dynamic entry. You have 2 seconds (if that) to respond.

Is it the bad guys, or the good guys - just one of those "we're human, too" mistakes?

What do YOU do?

spin180
January 8, 2003, 05:35 AM
Charges Dropped Against Man Who Shot Police Officers (http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/1873772/detail.html)

Charges Dropped Against Man Who Shot Police Officers
No Officer Was Seriously Injured

POSTED: 11:58 a.m. EST January 7, 2003
UPDATED: 5:11 p.m. EST January 7, 2003

BALTIMORE -- Prosecutors are dropping charges against a man who shot four police officers in Baltimore during a drug raid.

Baltimore City State's Attorney Patricia Jessamy says that's because police didn't announce their police presence before the man's door was knocked down with a battering ram in November.

Jessamy says investigators have concluded that Lewis Cauthorne, 26, was acting in self-defense when he fired six shots from a .45-caliber handgun when officers entered his home.


"Statements taken from the officers, as well as evidence inside the house, led me to conclude Lewis Cauthorne was acting in self defense," Jessamy said.

An investigation found that members of the raid team were not wearing police uniforms or raid jackets that would have identified them as police officers.

In her announcement, Jessamy cited a 1995 U.S. Supreme Court case mandating that police must knock and announce their presence before making a forced entry on a search warrant.

But Baltimore City Acting Police Commissioner John McEntee said he strongly feels the case should have gone to a grand jury.

"Fortunately, none of those officers have sustained a life-threatening injury. Unfortunately, the state's attorney has made the decision not to pursue criminal charges in this matter," McEntee said.

He firmly believes his officers did knock and identify themselves before knocking down the door.

"I think that's in dispute. There are several officers who clearly have made statements contradictory to that and there are other officers who simply did not hear something, but do not dispute the statements made by other officers," McEntee said.

Jessamy stressed her decision to dismiss the Cauthorne case is intended to protect both the public and police.

"This is not singular message that we want people to start shooting at police officers if they [are] opposite. What we're saying to the citizens of Baltimore City is that we want you to be safe and secure in your homes. What we are saying to police officers is that we appreciate your efforts and we want to make sure that you to be safe also," Jessamy said.

Jessamy said her decision was based on a Supreme Court ruling that requires officers with a warrant to properly announce themselves and give people an opportunity to open the door -- particularly if officers have a what's called a no-knock warrant, WBAL-TV 11 NEWS reported.

Police were required to knock and announce their presence while they served a warrant to search Cauthorne's house for drugs. Several of the officers, involved, Jessamy says, told investigators that procedure wasn't followed.

McEntee said the police department has made improvements to raid situations following the Cauthorne case.

"There were some changes that were made the very next day [including] search warrants, raid jackets being warn [and] better identification of officers," McEntee said.

But the nylon jackets that have "police" in bold lettering were not worn by the police officers involved in this case, WBAL-TV 11 NEWS reported.

The procedure is spelled out in a 1995 Supreme Court decision that involved a drug raid in Arkansas. Prosecutors relied on that decision in the Cauthorne case, WBAL-TV 11 NEWS reported.

"Our reading of the facts here, the people inside weren't given an opportunity to open the door and allow the officers to come in," Jessamy said.

Jessamy says her decision was based solely on the law. Prosecutors say they are seeking Cauthorne's release.

Prosecutors say only traces of marijuana and cocaine were found in the house -- as well as a larger amount of a powder that's used as a cutting agent.

Stay with TheWBALChannel.com and 11 News for the latest news updates.

Previous Stories:
January 3, 2003: I-Team: Accused Cop-Shooter's Case In Jeopardy
November 22, 2002: Police, Family Dispute Raid Actions
November 20, 2002: Confusion Could Be Cause For Shooting
November 20, 2002: Community Reacts To Shooting
November 20, 2002: Mayor Calls Officers Heroes
November 20, 2002: Four Baltimore City Police Officers Shot
Copyright 2003 by TheWBALChannel.com. The Associated Press contributed to this report. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


It seems this guy isn't exactly the most upstanding citizen around and he still got off, in Maryland to boot!

denfoote
January 8, 2003, 07:04 AM
Yeah!! I gotta assume that the secret orders have gone out and gungrabbers.gov have begun their long awaited house to house search for "contraband"!! Besides, I figure I'm gunna die anyway because the ATF, NSA, CIA, FBI all know I have guns from having agents lurking on these boards!! We have all admitted to owning guns. Heck, some of us have even posted what guns we have!!! If whatever.gov does a dynamic entery into my house, I figure it's because the Shrub or whom ever is in charge at the time has signed a secret executive order banning guns, and I'm toast anyway!!!

TallPine
January 8, 2003, 08:33 AM
Deadhand:

I just have to ask: why you have been involved in "a number of raids" ???

What do these raids accomplish that could not be accomplished by other means?

If you have done so much homework and preparation, why can't you arrest suspects when they are out of the building? Does it just take too much time to wait for somebody to go out and get a pizza or cigarettes?

If you there is enough evidence in the house to break down the door, there should be more evidence than can possibly be flushed down a toliet, etc. Or are you raiding houses looking for a teen with a half ounce of pot hidden under his pillow?

Sir, none of these questions are intended to attack you personally - I'm sure you are a fine officer - but why are all these raids taking place to begin with? Are they really worth it?

Certainly - IMO - it's not worth it just to enforce drug laws.

Tamara
January 8, 2003, 08:47 AM
I have seen a lot of threads on gun boards about "what to do if your house is no knocked by the police". I don't lie in bed awake at night worrying about this. I am starting to think that maybe I have a problem because it seems a high number of people think this is a real danger and I don't.

Are you saying that the police will never kick down the wrong door again? That there will never be another Ralph Garrison, another Mario Paz, another Willie Heard or Ismael Mena? Did you know that in the 146 no-knocks carried out by the Denver PD in 1999, no felony arrests occured in two-thirds of them and only two suspects were sent to prison. Out of 146 raids. It does happen, and it could happen to someone here.

Anyhow, probabilities aside...

Folks here are alla time gaming out improbable scenarios, it goes along with the preparedness mindset that causes someone to carry a CCW in the first place. I didn't see anybody indicating that they lie awake at night thinking about it, but it fits well in between "What if you're caught up in a convenience store robbery?" and "What if a bunch of gangbangers start shooting up the party you're at?"

...whoops, wait, that last one actually happened to one of our members last week; scratch that one. ;)

p35
January 8, 2003, 10:31 AM
The third jury to hear Brian Eggleston's murder case agreed Monday with prosecutors: The Tacoma man executed Pierce County sheriff's deputy John Bananola in a deadly gun battle seven years ago.

After listening to eight weeks of testimony, the 12 men and women took about eight hours Friday and Monday to convict the 32-year-old Eggleston of second-degree murder and first-degree assault.


Bananola, 36, died Oct. 16, 1995, during a drug raid in which he and five other deputies entered Eggleston's house at 902 E. 52nd St. to serve a search warrant.


As Superior Court Judge Stephanie Arend read the verdict, a pale Eggleston remained impassive while his relatives and friends sobbed in the courtroom gallery.


Afterward, jurors, some looking tired and tearful, refused to talk to attorneys, detectives or reporters about what convinced them Eggleston was guilty.


Deputy prosecutor Jim Schacht said some had nodded when he explained to them after the verdict that the three final shots Eggleston fired into Bananola's head convinced him that Eggleston was a murderer rather than a man acting in self-defense, as he had contended.


At least one of those shots was fired from 18 to 24 inches away, and the first of the shots would have immediately incapacitated Bananola, Schacht said.


"You really have to dig deep to say, when you're doing that, you fear for your life," Schacht said.


Defense attorney Monte Hester disagreed.


"Justice has not yet been done," he said. "I feel terrible for Brian and his family that it didn't work out the way it should under the law. But we have to deal with it."


Eggleston's family vowed to keep fighting through appeals.


"We'll do it again, Brian," Eggleston's mother, Linda, called to him as corrections officers led him away in handcuffs.


Hester said he hasn't assessed what went wrong for Eggleston in the trial, and that he'll concentrate on that after the Jan. 3 sentencing.


Eggleston faces the potential of decades in prison. In 1998, his sentence for the same convictions, coupled with four related drug convictions, added up to 49 years - a sentence at the top of the standard range.


A jury in 1997 convicted Eggleston of drug charges and first-degree assault, but couldn't decide on a murder charge. A second jury in 1998 convicted Eggleston of second-degree murder. But an appeals court overturned the murder and assault convictions, saying both trials were unfair.


Prosecutors argued that Eggleston, crouching naked in his bedroom doorway, shot Bananola and then chased him down, pumping three shots into the deputy's head as he lay helpless on the floor.


In all, Eggleston shot Bananola nine times. He then shot at deputy Warren Dogeagle, prompting the assault charge.


Eggleston, who was shot five times in the raid, testified that he awoke to chaos, was shot as soon as he walked out of his bedroom and returned fire only because he thought the deputies were armed intruders.


Deputies had gone to the Eggleston house that day to find out whether Brent Eggleston, a sheriff's deputy, was involved in Brian's drug trade. He wasn't and is still a deputy.


Brent Eggleston's wife, Dana Eggleston, said a shoddy investigation of her husband had led to the drug raid and had ruined many lives.


In the courthouse lobby, Linda Eggleston yelled tearfully about a cover-up to protect other deputies who took part in the raid.


"His own men killed him," she said, surrounded by family and Brian Eggleston's friends. "(Deputy John) Reding shot him. And all we are is a poor family with no money and no power."


During the trial, Eggleston lawyers Hester and Zenon Olbertz didn't argue the possibility that a deputy had killed Bananola. And deputy prosecutor Schacht strongly disputed her accusation.


"There's no truth to it at all," he said. "All John Reding's bullets were accounted for."


Reached by phone, Reding said he was stunned someone was accusing him of the killing.


"Oh, my gosh," Reding said. "That's not right. ... I can understand it's a tough time for them. Who knows what lengths that they'd go to to say it wasn't him? But it's not right for them to say that."


Reding and other deputies involved in the raid said they were glad to hear the jury reached what they called the only just verdict.


"I listened to closing arguments, and I've been familiar with the case from the get-go," said detective Sgt. Ben Benson, who led the 1995 raid. "There was only one verdict they could come back with. ... Brian Eggleston is being sent back where he needs to go."


It was a satisfying ending but not happy day for those who loved Bananola.


"It's almost Christmas," said Bananola's daughter, Brooke, who came to court with her fiancé and her 4-year-old daughter, Malia. "It's still sad. It doesn't bring him back."


She said she was ready for whatever was next: Eggleston's sentencing, his appeal, even another trial.


"I have to be ready," she said. "My dad can't be."

They are now seriously considering another trial due to juror misconduct.

fix
January 8, 2003, 10:42 AM
1) Assess situation. I.E. I can't put up much of a fight standing naked in the shower.

2) Make decision. I.E. Fight, flight, or submit.

3) Take action. I.E. Haul ***, lay down, or fight.

4) If I'm gonna fight...seek cover, dial 911 on cell phone with hands free device, scream clearly and loudly for ID/Warrant, wait for operator to confirm police presence or shooting to start, return fire if necessary.

TheOtherOne
January 8, 2003, 11:04 AM
Eggleston, who was shot five times in the raid, testified that he awoke to chaos, was shot as soon as he walked out of his bedroom and returned fire only because he thought the deputies were armed intruders.

...

Prosecutors argued that Eggleston, crouching naked in his bedroom doorway, shot Bananola and then chased him down, pumping three shots into the deputy's head as he lay helpless on the floor.

He should of went after the other "intruders" instead of focusing so long on the one that was no longer a deadly threat. Because of that, based on only what it said in that article, I'm inclined to agree with the jury's decision.

twoblink
January 8, 2003, 11:12 AM
For the amount of $$ spent by SWAT on training, the first thing you hear is nothing if they are "the real thing"... You will remember hearing a "bang" and then see St. Peter at the gates..

If they "announce" "We are cops!!" and break in; well, shoot away is what I say.. No real cop will do that, and the good ones won't announce themselves..

JMLV
January 8, 2003, 01:57 PM
AND OTHERS ON THE SAME TOPIC SHOULD BE PRINTED OUT BY THE LEO'S ON THE BOARD AND POSTED ON THEIR DEPARTMENTS BULLTIAN BOARD? IF NOTHING ELSE IT WILL LET THEM KNOW WHAT THE PUBLIC THINKS OF THEIR NINJA MASKS AND NO KNOCK RAIDS.

Marko Kloos
January 8, 2003, 02:13 PM
If you don't have the evidence to make your case in front of a judge without the stuff that might get flushed down the toilet while you knock, you damn sure don't have enough evidence to kick down the door with machine guns.

This silly War on Drugs needs to end, and its proponents need to force themselves to re-learn the lessons of the Prohibition. Every infringement of our civil rights since NFA '34 has been a direct result of prohibitionist do-gooder legislation. I don't care how much damage you think drugs inflict...it pales in comparison to the damage inflicted on society by asset forfeiture, no-knock raids, and other excesses of the War On Some Drugs.

AmericanFreeBird
January 8, 2003, 02:35 PM
First I'd say that I hope this senario never happens, I don't look forward to the day if or when I have to seriously put another human being in my sights and fire at them.

Having said that, I am a law abiding citizen who will be more than happy to open my door to allow real police officers in if they have a warrant authorizing their entry. If they're not there to unconstitutionally confiscate arms in some door to door operation, then they are welcome to search the place. I have nothing to hide.

Come breaking in, in the middle of the night with masks and guns and grenades and I'll ask for no quarter and I'll give none. If it's in my power, I'm taking at least one of you with me.

Anyone busting down my door at 2:00am with a gun is a BG. If I even suspect you're wearing body armour your forehead will make an excellent bullseye as will mine. Shoot straight or die.

My applogies in advance if you're one of the good guys.

Edward429451
January 8, 2003, 02:35 PM
If the police knock and announce a warrant, I will cooperate (again, with the possible exception of wholesale firearms confiscation from the public.)

I have to ask this....

How will you know their intended purpose before being secured by them? Do you think they'll announce "We're here to confiscate your guns!!"??????

Rebel Gunman HK
January 8, 2003, 05:12 PM
If the cops want to look and pretend they are Navy Seals they should join the Navy. If they want to be cops they need to look and act like one.

Deadhand
January 8, 2003, 06:11 PM
"just have to ask: why you have been involved in "a number of raids" ??? "

Yes, some of the raids were drug related, some were for known, wanted, DANGEROUS felons, others were for search warrants for burglary suspects, etc. The bottom line is this-
If you read about a raid gone bad in a newspaper, GET THE WHOLE STORY! Not what the liberal, cop-hating, left wing press WANTS you know. I have read some terrible things about myself in the local rag that were not even close to the truth.
I've got a family, a nice home, a college education, and a 15 year career and not one of them am I willing to sacrifice to a bad (or good) guy's gun! Nor do I intend to let some trial lawyer take them away.
I do not participate in warrant searches anymore, but I still work with many who do, and I can tell you that the law is increasingly NOT on the cops' side. It is harder and harder to make your case, and harder still to make it stick. Hell, the crooks are out on bail before the arrest card is completed! Maybe in some backwater communities some LEOs get away with sloppy case preparation, but not here in California. There are twice as many lawyers here than doctors, and they love to collect the hides of cops that screw up.
To answer another question, here in my city, unless you were waiting with gun in hand, ready to go, you would probably not have a chance to defend yourself against the cops. Period. If the case agent knows anything about you, he'd know that you had the gun and would use some other method to make the arrest. Contrary to popular belief, 99.99 percent of police officers are not gun-totin' cowboys looking for their next target.
If my front door gets smashed in while I'm sitting in front of the tube, I'll submit- I probably not have any other choice.
Several years ago, there was a string of home invasion robberies here, with a pair of shotgun toting bad guys. Their method was rather crude- one would walk up to a front window during "dinner" hours, peek in, if all of the occupants were sitting down at the table they would then ring the door bell. When the door was opened, they would rush in, fire a shot into the ceiling and take a t.v. or VCR. A few unlucky folks got bonked with a shotgun when they didn't cooperate. The whole town was terrorized. I met quite a few people that were packin' sidearms at home. The two were finally caught when an alert citizen saw them get out of their car with the guns, and they were taken into custody without incident. During this time, you can be sure that there were no raids by the P.D.!
If you loose sleep on this subject, you have other, more pressing issues to deal with.

CWL
January 8, 2003, 06:18 PM
The local cops that I know and respect, and who do high-risk entries know their business. If they enter your place and and you resist, you die. -Simply because there will be 6-8 of them armed with M4s and you probably wont.

A team in a large city can serve between 6-20 warrants each day, they will be better than you. Accept this.


With that said, the ones I've met and talked with are also some of the coolest people who are doing a dangerous job. They are just professionals who want to go home when their work is done. They don't "live for the kill" like some people believe.

Also they don't do that many "no knocks" if ever -I've engaged in this conversation many times. You've got to be a very very dangerous person/gang or in some sort of hostage situation. That, or your local PD doesn't have a clue is full of cowboys and DOES need housecleaning. They police here don't like to do them, and they are certainly not done just because of some snitches' word.

Here in Northern CA, even the most dangerous warrants are typically served with a door-knock. This includes dangerous felon arrests, robbery, drug and amphetamine lab busts. -Meth lab cookers are usually people who have nothing to lose and also have had their sense of reality baked right out of their skulls by not having slept for 2-weeks running while ingesting unknown quantities of methamphetamines, and even these guys get a knock on thier doors.

I think that the few, and they are only a few, wrongly served warrants are being incorrectly perceived as a majority.

benewton
January 8, 2003, 07:06 PM
I strongly suspect that a properly conducted raid couldn't be effectively resisted.

Still, read the posts, I'd have no option but to try.

After all, you went through 2 big dogs, after you did my front door, didn't bother to call, etc, and I've no idea who you are.

You cannot always win, but you must always try.

As noted earlier, of four possible outcomes, from my point of view, only one is favorable, and as an earlier poster mentioned, given that I must die, I'd rather it be quick.

Besides, maybe I can set the wife up for a shot!

standingbear
January 8, 2003, 08:08 PM
my big issue is this; what if its the wrong house and that wrong house happened to be mine.i believe the adrenine would be "slightly"..(lol) high on both the occupants and cops,easy for anyone to be shot.people will freak out at the ninja garbs and masks(if they can see it with the blinding lights),the sound of someone smashing in the door(being asleep...will they hear anything but the door smashing in?) or utter mayhem about the hallway all while being suddenly awakened in the middle of the night.we A-L-L make mistakes,it could happen to anyone.this is why i would probably fight not knowing who or what just smashed in my door and is making a co-motion downstairs.the whole idea of appearance and surprise(purpose of a no-knock to catch the "baddies" off guard?) is what is the problem and the fact mistakes DO happen.

labgrade
January 8, 2003, 09:19 PM
Uh, Deadhand.

You still haven't addressed my last posit.

Safety First
January 8, 2003, 09:28 PM
Funny, I was just thinking about that same question last night..So I was interested in all the comments, seems Baba Louie may have the best answer,it seems to be in the middle of shoot and ask questions later or surrender to the "maybe police"..........

Deadhand
January 8, 2003, 10:52 PM
"Uh, Deadhand.

You still haven't addressed my last posit."

__________________________________________

I think I did. If I'm up, relaxing with my family, I'll submit. Frankly, 2 seconds is not enough time to retreat to a defensive position and go weapons hot. If I'm in bed asleep, I would definitely not be able to react with a clear, focused mindset. If I'm in bed, awake, and they hit the front door, I've got, maybe, 5 seconds to make my life-or-death decision and act. From training, I'd probably unleash a hail of 185 grain Hydra-Shoks and then be rightfully killed. This is all assuming that this is an entry by REAL, professional police personnel. If it was a gang of thugs looking for an easy score, I'd more than likely have a little more time/warning and lot less uncertainty.

mrat
January 9, 2003, 03:15 AM
Are you saying that the police will never kick down the wrong door again?

No I didn't say that. What I said is I don't think that the police will kick down my door. The odds against it happening are extremely high.

Folks here are alla time gaming out improbable scenarios, it goes along with the preparedness mindset that causes someone to carry a CCW in the first place. I didn't see anybody indicating that they lie awake at night thinking about it, but it fits well in between "What if you're caught up in a convenience store robbery?" and "What if a bunch of gangbangers start shooting up the party you're at?"

The chances of getting caught in a convencience store robbery while waiting to pay for my Slurpee are much higher than my door getting kicked in by the police.

My bottome line is I am not going to worry about every little bad thing that might go wrong in life. A person has to quess which things are more likely to happen and prepare for them. Although I admit when I lived under the flight path of a busy international airport I was a little concerned about one of those planes falling on my house.

labgrade
January 10, 2003, 09:01 PM
Deadhand,

No, you didn't, & mrat, No. The point is just perhaps in The Maybe.

Just - alone & enough - in the Maybe.

Why is it we would have to live in the chance of being maybe kilt to prevent a war on things that are less a threat than that of being kilt in their defence from?

Worst case.

I've seen the depravities of a large cities' nutcases. Walking into places at night, the posturing of young ladies, the .... I could go on & so could any of you who live anywhere & have any contact with the larger cities.

Killing us will not stop it.

You, through your power to enforce, don't have this power or ability to enforce these laws.

There's a constitution that says what's allowable & what's not (anything not so addressed).

Through your mistakes, you will eventually, try to, kill us, to enforce unenforceable laws.

And, through those same mistakes, we must eventually kill you for violating what we perceive to be our rights.

Cannot you see that?

Frankly,

As deprived as we would want to be or as free as we would want to be - it is none of your business.

None.

It won't ever be & you can't win. All you can do is hope to draw a paycheck & die at the end of the day.

So much for a legacy.

Sleep tight.

Deadhand
January 12, 2003, 11:52 AM
Labgrade-
It must really be tough being you. Can someone please put the brakes on this testosterone train and stop at Reality Station? If you worry so much about law enforcement doing you harm, you've got other problems. Tin foil hats sometimes work.... The black helicopters will be landing soon in your front yard. Aliens doing medical experiments, etc.
To all others, I subscribed to this forum because I am a gun enthusiast. I had no idea that I stepped into a hornets nest of those kind of folks you dread to see at the gun shows. You've all seen them- the camoflaged guys with the wild eyes that buy 7.62x39 ammo by the case lot and ask the vendor if the cases will hold up to being buried. The guys that'll hang around the booth that has a lot of AR parts and will tell every prospective buyer the most minute detail of the item with a gleam in his eye.

SCARY

I'll be looking for another forum.

standingbear
January 12, 2003, 12:12 PM
im a gun enthusiast too,i feel strongly about my home as i feel the people living there are more valuable than anything and would protect them if i felt theirs or my lives threatened by an unknown assailant(s).i dont lie awake worrying about it happening,i only know it has happened.we arent ready for the rubber gun squad just because.as far as the people at shows buying ammo with wild looks,as long as theyre not harming anyone,i could care less.to each his/her own

TallPine
January 12, 2003, 12:29 PM
Deadhand:

Well, I suppose you are gone by now and won't read this, but ...

I don't know why you got so defensive - I specifically stated that I was not attacking you personally but rather the LE polices that lead to "no-knock" raids. Serving a search warrant is not the same thing - unless you don't bother to present the warrant to gain lawful entrance. Instead of addressing the questions that many of us have, you just whined about how tough it is to be a LEO in the PRK.

No, I don't lose (it's not spelled "loose" - I learned that in college, too :) ) sleep over no-knock police raids. For one thing, with 3 dogs in the house, I am likely to be awake if anyone is on or near our property. I am concerned with the remote possibilty that some escaped fugitive or itinerate nutcase could choose our town and our house to try to get a ride and/or a rape. I don't intend to end up like the nice couple in Ovando who were murdered in their home about 6 or 7 years ago. The young killer from out of state was caught and eventually put to sleep permanently.

But now I am also starting to get worried about LE officers who can't explain why they are justified to barge into a home unannounced.

amprecon
January 12, 2003, 02:20 PM
I think I have put enough thought on this and many other societal problems and have deduced that the politicians are to blame for all of them. Including "no-knock" raids where innocents are killed.

First of all, in all their "wisdom" and decisions based on their "Ivy League" educations they are idiots at making laws that propagate their personal agendas for a "kindler, gentler" nation. Or they are traitors that are trying to gain total control of all aspects of our lives. There are suspicious parallels. Either way since all of us do not possess the "Ivy League" education, we will never have the mental capacity to understand their decisions. But we must believe that laws are only passed with the most "righteous intentions" in mind.

Regardless, I have come to the conclusion that more police is not the answer to crime, they only increase the possibility for "bad interactions". Standards are reduced to allow more officers to be recruited. Secondly, more people need to have guns, period. I don't agree with "having" to get a CCW to carry a gun. The Second Amendment makes no mention of how our "...Arms" are to be carried. To mandate a CCW is an infringement of this right.
I believe that if more citizens carried guns we would be a safer society because all would have the responsibility of maintaining a safe and civilized society and not burdening the police with this unattainable effort by themselves.

The majority of crimes are committed against unarmed people. If the perps are caught, as some LEO's here have stated, they are released before the paperwork is finished. This only created a slight interruption in their deeds. If the victims were armed and were attacked, there's a chance that they would shoot the perp and kill/wound him thus ridding society of this "bad seed". Some victims might not survive encounters, but to take the risk of dying and possibly help society get rid of criminals in the process is the duty of every citizen.

It reminds me of the part in Saving Private Ryan where they run up against the machine gun nest under the German radar installation and everyone else wants to go around it and leave it because they believe the objective is to reach Pvt. Ryan. But Capt. Miller says the objective is to win the war and that they were going to take the risk and make the effort and get involved to make a difference. To save other platoons from maybe having to be caught by the machine gun nest.

It is our duty as Americans to be armed, to get involved with our communities and confront wrong and make it right or risk trying. I fear the Americans that the rest of the world respected at one time has become a society of cowards and sheep. Most believe that they have contributed enough by having laws enacted and spending money on more police so that we don't have to get our "hands dirty" fixing societal problems.

I am sorry if I haven't addressed this topic more directly, but I feel that superficial suggestions won't help the innocent citizen whose door is bashed in by any person, legitimate or illegitimate. Everyone bragging about how they're going to blast whomever smashes their door down and hope they survive it won't remedy the problem.

What concerns me is the possibility of the prevalency of these types of situations. Because counting mere citizen/police wins/losses in mistaken home entries won't save any American. It will merely go on and on. More laws will be passed to protect the police in these situations which will decrease the risk for them to make mistakes and make it more dangerous for the citizen.

The mindset of our communities needs to be changed, we need to take a more pro-active position regarding crime and criminals and the overall safety of our communities and not leave these important decisions up to politicians and law enforcement. We the people are supposed to be in control of this country, we need to be responsible and act within the bounds of the Constitution like our elected officials are SUPPOSED to do.

Sorry for this long reply, but this is merely the opinion of a law-abiding citizen and I hope it made sense to some of you.

12-34hom
January 12, 2003, 03:04 PM
Jezze, another "what if" scenerio.

Sorry, but the train just went thru reality station at full speed.

Tallpine stated on another thread that "I was the kind of cop who scares him".

My responce, is FDR's famous quote "All we have to fear is fear itself".

These types of threads only foster the "Us vs. Them" mindset that seems so prevasive. What is gained by these imagined happenings and the discourse that follows?

Some here seem have an axe to grind when it comes to LEO's. Is it imagined or real on thier part?

Saw the same thing on TFL, the moderators at that site put most of it down. That does not seem to be the case here. Since this place is touted as "The High Road" it would seem that the bias of the moderators here should held in check.

Is that possible? not likely.

12-34hom

Oleg Volk
January 12, 2003, 03:15 PM
I don't see any cop-bashing here. What I do see is a discussion of a law enforcement practice which is perceived as common and harmful by some participants and as uncommon and necessary by others.

pax
January 12, 2003, 06:11 PM
As others have noted, it is highly unlikely that police will crash into my dwelling in the middle of the night -- I'm a law-abiding citizen, after all. And so are those who live with me.

Since it is, as the LEOs here say, SOOOO unlikely to happen, why does it bother LEOs to hear that some of us will shoot whoever crashes in?

Could it be that it's not as unlikely as you'd like it to be?

Guess what: it's not as unlikely as I'd like it to be, either.

Maybe someone should fix that.

pax

If someone is so fearful that, that they're going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, makes me very nervous that these people have these weapons at all! -- Rep. Henry Waxman

biere
January 12, 2003, 06:36 PM
The problem I think most police might have is this. They are very unlikely to kick my door. But if they go around kicking doors, one mistake makes them kick the wrong door. High risk job in my opinion. I am glad they do it and I support them in their efforts, but I do not like surprises.

I am one of those city boys who moved to the country. I hate varmints getting into my dog's food or strays fighting my dog. So when he does his "gee I need some help out here" bark I go immediately. I don't go to the front door for my rifle, I don't go to the back door for my rifle, I walk out with what I have on me or by me all the time. Problem gets solved faster, vet bills are lower.

If my door got booted in right now, I would fire some warning shots as I locked the door to the room I am in. If they are police I would tell them to not bust in this door yet. I want them to slide some id under the door, use a long stick to get that id. Then I would tell them to fix my phones so I could call the police station. That police station better know what is going on. If that is the case I will come out unarmed.

Heck, if they asked nicely and knocked there would be no shots fired, if they let me verify things as I did above.

I don't care about reaction times, sleeping or not, eating or not. I will do my best to protect what is mine out here. If that is a problem, someone should learn some manners and try asking nicely before complaining about me shooting them with a shotgun or a rifle in 308.

Just because the police have all their problems with drug dealers and other criminals does not mean they can kick in my door and expect me to yell "uncle", I give up.

labgrade
January 12, 2003, 06:58 PM
Well, if nothing else, my last post shows that a goodly dose of gin & trying to make a philosophical point don't go hand-in-hand. mea culpa, folks.

I've done a "couple raids" & got to bust a few for having drugs. The latter turned my stomach, while the former were to pull out hostages - a good thing, IMHO, & warranted.

(Quick aside for those wondering how it's done.
We had "news" of what was going on in "the house," blew the door/s with C4, assaulted the place with overwhelming force at our most opportune time, shot the bad guys (mostly with 12 gauge pumps) & saved the day.

Zip chance for the bad guys & maximum for us.

What else?)

FWIW, I'm not in the least worried about anybody kicking in my door. I don't "do that," I live in the country, have a completely laid back life - yada - & the worst thing I see around these parts is some yahoo going 30 MPH on our dirt road marked at 20.

No stock in Alcoa.

But,

You "cops" talk about how "under the circumstances," you "own me."

You don't.

And I am as sick of hearing that as much as you are hearing how "we'd shoot you."

I don't give a good rat's butt whether or not there are laws that say we can't do this, or that.

But what you guys are saying, is it's justifiable for you to kick in a door of somebody's home with the absolute will & threat to kill everyone in that house to prevent them from doing what exactly?

The implicit threat of an immediate death sentence to do what - exactly? Please do tell.

Just as a mental exercize, no-knocks have prevented what travesities against society versus how many innocents killed(some of which have been your own)?

Other than an immediate threat of life, as in a hostage situation, you have no business doing a no-knock, but still you'll defend it as if it was your God-given right.

That we even have this discussion at all - that there areno-knocks allowed - shows to what extent this country has fallen.

& you "cops" are .... what?

Do you prevent crimes from happening, or do you just try to apprehend those who've "fouled?"

---------

I'm not cop-bashing. I'm just asking some questions out loud. Maybe there's a couple of you who can answer some of them & just maybe, some of the "I own you" crowd will sit up & take notice - maybe rethink your positions of what it is you're about & why you're doing it.

----------

I hate the cities because they seem to concentrate some of our less savory types.

During a quick drive through Denver, coupla nights ago, I got to see a woman propositioned (maybe she didn't get the "fare" she wanted, maybe she was a hooker/maybe not. nonetheless, there was a heated argument.), a "gent," walking about as steady as my last post, ;) carreening into a lamppost (thud!), another "sleeping it off" against a corner, several folk having close "heart-to-hearts" (likely drug deals going down - maybe they were just good friends having a group hug), easily 20 "homeless folk" illegally pandering to those who're not, .....plenty more.

Easily, on my 10 minute drive down Colfax, I saw 50 potential criminal activities ..... and not a single cop, except for one cruiser who never did anything but cruise .....

Not one.

Nobody was stopping illegal activities in what we all know to be one of the most crime-ridden areas of this state.

Where were you?

Nothin' else, if a person was "out hunting," don't you think he'd go where the game was most plentiful?

Why are you not stopping criminal activities that are right in front of your face?

---------------

Frankly, y'all aren't stopping crime. You can't & nobody's blaming you. Not your job - it's ours - always was, but most of us aren't playing.

But kicking in doors just makes you look like thugs.

-----------

Made mention before that I type much more angrily than I talk.

We can hash this out in type & likely go nowhere, or we can talk.

PM me. You'll get my home phone # & I'll even foot the bill on the return call - you'll get to hear what a loveable guy I am & we'll be pals. Many have. ;)

----------

"These types of threads only foster the "Us vs. Them" mindset that seems so prevasive. What is gained by these imagined happenings and the discourse that follows?"

Are you saying that "these imagined happenings" haven't happened & that innocents haven't been shot to death through the mishaps of the overzealous?

(Heavy sigh.) Good grief, some of your own have been shot to death in the execution of these raids - by your own people.

"Some here seem have an axe to grind when it comes to LEO's. Is it imagined or real on thier part?"

Or maybe on your part.

Your assumption seems to be that because there is a codification of some "thing" that you can do whatever it is you want to us.

Really, & in all friendliness, just stuff it. You don't get to rule my life, or even stop me to have a friendly chat .

You wanna do that? c'mon over to the house & we'll have a beer. - & I was never that bad a guy anyway. Why do you think that you get to "pull me over," "bust into my house" for anything anyway?

Pssst. Just butt out of my life, OK? I'm not causing my fellow citizens any harm & that's enough for you to know.

"Saw the same thing on TFL, the moderators at that site put most of it down. That does not seem to be the case here. Since this place is touted as "The High Road" it would seem that the bias of the moderators here should held in check."

So what you're trying to say is that because you are "in authority," we should just sit down & shut up.

12-34hom,

You & I butted heads at TFL & I really do thank you for your thoughts, expressions & candor. Betcha we could share a beer & be buds ....

But, we have a difference in philosophy. I believe in the freedom of anyone to do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of another. You, however, are "a cop" & must "uphold the law."

These Laws are for idiots who wouldn't have a clue if somebody didn't shout down at them how to act.

Is that possible? not likely."

We've got our choices, no? You can either go to The High Road, or you can just hit the road.

Why beat yourself up?

Isn't there a Cop.guv-site you can go play with those who think just like you?

& I'm on your side, if you can believe that. Really.

Have a nice day.

12-34hom
January 12, 2003, 11:56 PM
Labgrade, Did i single you out or are you just having a bad day?

I don't want to rule anyone's life, let alone yours.

I'll stand on my record as a peace officer anytime - anywhere.

And no, i have no authority, just the trust of the people who allow me to serve. I swore an oath when i took this job. My word is my bond. I can do no less. I've never "kicked in" anyones door or violated anyones civil rights. I have arrested large numbers of drug dealers & drunk drivers, and make no apologies to you or anyone else for doing so.

Labgrade, when you look at the world thru your rose colored glasses everything seems fine. Glad it works for you.

As far as "stuffing it" and being an idiot; personal attacks really don't become you, you can believe that... really... "Take the high road".

Your drinking pal.

12-34hom.

12-34hom
January 13, 2003, 12:05 AM
Labgrade, Did i single you out or are you just having a bad day?

As far as "stuffing it" and being an idiot; personal attacks don't become you... really - you believe that.

Your drinking pal.

12-34hom

Tamara
January 13, 2003, 12:10 AM
Saw the same thing on TFL, the moderators at that site put most of it down. That does not seem to be the case here. Since this place is touted as "The High Road" it would seem that the bias of the moderators here should held in check.

Odd comment to make if you'll look at the staff.

No LEOs left, and we even added more. ;)

labgrade
January 13, 2003, 01:13 AM
Quickly, 12-34hom.

"your drinking" should be spelled as "you're" as is in "you are."

Misspells blows a traffic citation, doesn't it?

I'm not though. Kinda wishing I was.

But, back to the subject.

I never personally attacked you in the least.

Try rereading my post & what I suggested - "perhaps a personal contact, sharing a beer, a friendly chat."

& you suggest that I attacked you? How paranoid you must feel.

& you a cop, with the power of the gun ....

Tsk!

Tell ya what. Why not do as I've suggested? Drop a PM, we'll exchange phone #s (better yet, since I'm "OK" with it I'll give you mine .... ) we'll chat. We be buds, betcha.

What we're having here is a failure to communicate.

Thass all.

Selfdfenz
January 13, 2003, 02:39 AM
The scenario in the original post is one that would have occured to the bad guys sooner or later.

The fix for this situation is NOT one that should involve law abiding citizens having to make this kind of life or death decision.

The fix is that there should be no No-Knock raids.

It's too bad the decision to have or not have NK raids can't be left as a voting issue for the average citizen. If that were the case, they would cease to exist pretty quickly.


S-

TallPine
January 13, 2003, 11:28 AM
12-34hom:

I really think that you are in need of a vacation. :)

I said that cops who could not explain the justification of "no-knock" raids scare me. I don't think that is unrational on my part. So you take that as a personal attack because you have not yet answered that question, and imply that I am some sort of nut for asking the question.

You said that you yourself had not participated in "no-knock" raids. Good! Now can you explain why other officers in yours or any other force would need to do these raids?

Enlighten me, because I can think of only one possibility - a hostage situation. But in that case I would think that the LE agency(ies) involved would have surrounded the location and attempted to negotiate before instigating force.

- - -
Remember who it is that you are supposed to "protect and serve"

Zundfolge
January 14, 2003, 12:18 AM
I skimmed through this thread and didn't see the following news story referenced ... but it seems that sometimes the cops let us surfs who shoot back (when they screw up) live :p


http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/1873772/detail.html

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